Second Date Questions [UPDATE: Date 6 and beyond]

[glows]

1 minute ago, dragonwalker said:

Yes I know that I am placing pressure on myself for the intimacy partly because I think of an insecurity stemming from gaining some personal validation, concern that my poor initiative is hindering my my chance of success and plain old desire. 

If someone likes you back or is interested, mutual interest will grow. No need to prove anything, no need for force or any rush. Let it unfold on its own and keep going on dates. 

It’s a common misconception to have any physical intimacy as proof of anything. It’s in your best interest to gauge her interest first and feel more comfortable around one another. It will happen if you both feel the same way.

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

We spent 4 hours together.  

It's going well. Have confidence. That and patience are virtues. Dating is not to validate you that women are giving green lights.

It's to determine if you like them enough to continue. If so, your window of opportunity will come for getting to the physical/romantic part.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Wiseman2

[dragonwalker]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's going well. Have confidence. That and patience are virtues. Dating is not to validate you that women are giving green lights.

It's to determine if you like them enough to continue. If so, your window of opportunity will come for getting to the physical/romantic part.

I see ok, anyone have any ideas when I should reach out next and good 3rd date options?

[glows]

3 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

I see ok, anyone have any ideas when I should reach out next and good 3rd date options?

This is between her and you. Ask her if there’s anywhere she’d like to go/do/see. Aren’t you finding out what she likes or what her interests are during those previous dates? Think back on your previous conversations together and ask her what she thinks. 

Reach out to her any time. There’s no big rule when to reach out. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by glows

[Wiseman2]

12 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

 any ideas when I should reach out next and good 3rd date options? 

If you like her, reach out and plan something for the weekend. Don't play by 3 day rules etc.  You can ask her at the time if there's something in particular she would like to do, but at least have some ideas in mind.

[ChatroomHero]

From my experience, a 2nd date/lunch date is always bad. For some reason they are awkward. I think because it's trying to talk while eating, nothing will escalate, there's not the chance of doing much after so excitement or anticipation isn't there. I tend to think it's usually a thing where she was interested, you were nice, maybe she didn't feel it, so she's giving you a courtesy date that will go maybe an hour give or take where it's like, "I have to get going back to work...or to that other thing I had planned after lunch".

Dating convo can be weird and awkward and when you are just eating lunch as a distraction, that doesn't seem to help. If you do an activity or something fun, even if there is limited talking, it seems to distract from the awkwardness and makes things flow easier.

I have gotten to the point I won't accept a lunch date or like an early dinner date where she might have limited time or the date structure kind of limits the time. If she won't commit to more than a lunch date on the 2nd date, I assume she doesn't want to spend any more time than she has to but doesn't want to reject you directly.

I think if your issue is getting to know her deeper, do something where her guard is down a bit and she is having fun, not a lunch date/interview situation.

[dragonwalker]

10 hours ago, ChatroomHero said:

From my experience, a 2nd date/lunch date is always bad. For some reason they are awkward. I think because it's trying to talk while eating, nothing will escalate, there's not the chance of doing much after so excitement or anticipation isn't there. I tend to think it's usually a thing where she was interested, you were nice, maybe she didn't feel it, so she's giving you a courtesy date that will go maybe an hour give or take where it's like, "I have to get going back to work...or to that other thing I had planned after lunch".

Dating convo can be weird and awkward and when you are just eating lunch as a distraction, that doesn't seem to help. If you do an activity or something fun, even if there is limited talking, it seems to distract from the awkwardness and makes things flow easier.

I have gotten to the point I won't accept a lunch date or like an early dinner date where she might have limited time or the date structure kind of limits the time. If she won't commit to more than a lunch date on the 2nd date, I assume she doesn't want to spend any more time than she has to but doesn't want to reject you directly.

I think if your issue is getting to know her deeper, do something where her guard is down a bit and she is having fun, not a lunch date/interview situation.

So as I mentioned we went on a long arboretum walk and had food afterward. It didn't seem awkward and we talked throughout but it was fairly informational but that might be what both of us are comfortable with. I will propose a 3rd but wanted to definitely do have in mind an activity to suggest if she doesn't have anything in mind. I was thinking of maybe a museum but there wasn't anything that she said that hinted she would like that. I'm thinking back to my conversation with her and she didn't have any interests that could be associated or turned into a dating activity.

One thing I think may work is going to the Los Angeles Philharmonic at a place called the Hollywood Bowl. One of the few things she says she likes as a hobby is playing piano and cello and I think the philharmonic might be something she may be interested in going. Traditionally at this venue people will often pack or make their own food and kind of have like a picnic in the evening listening to the music. I was thinking either suggesting we each make our own as I'm not sure she'd be up for us making it before hand together. The tickets are like $80 each so a bit pricey not sure if again I should pick up the tab or accept an offer from her to pay if she wanted to go. 

I was inclined to do something more simple but still like an activity. I did suggest hiking before but she suggested the arboretum walk before. Any bright ideas people? 

[basil67]

Given that it's summer and you live near LA, if it were me, I'd be very impressed with a guy who'd suggest going to the beach for a swim followed by a beer and burger.   If the beach isn't close enough, what about finding a lake with trees and pack a blanket and picnic hamper?  If she offers to bring contributions, graciously accept. 

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

One thing I think may work is going to the Los Angeles Philharmonic .

Don't get too elaborate. Just contact her sooner rather than later and ask if she would like to do something this weekend.

You could ask what she would like to do in addition to having some ideas yourself.

Never buy locked in expensive tickets for something/someone you're not absolutely sure about. Save that for later. Way too elaborate and presumptuous.

 

[dragonwalker]

On 8/2/2022 at 12:50 AM, Wiseman2 said:

Don't get too elaborate. Just contact her sooner rather than later and ask if she would like to do something this weekend.

You could ask what she would like to do in addition to having some ideas yourself.

Never buy locked in expensive tickets for something/someone you're not absolutely sure about. Save that for later. Way too elaborate and presumptuous.

 

So after a few exchanges we talked about going to a museum (something I had in mind before hand as well before agreeing with her suggestions when I asked) and food however she decided that just catching food was better and made some excuse about it taking to much time to coordinate getting museum tickets (I checked later and yes reservations are needed and afternoon ones were only avaibile), she did suggest going another time. 

We are going to meet for lunch this weekend. This will be date 3. I'm a little at a loss at how she feels things are going. We seldom text much during the week and I have always initiated. I have some feeling she is not big on texting as I don't recall her taking her phone out once during our time together and her level and amount of communication is quite consistent.

As I said before she seems to be a very modest person but this comes with the trickiness of determining her enthusiasm for going out or if she's enjoying our time. It could just be I'm bad at telling as well. She doesn't express a lot of outward emotion but she's engaged in our conversations. 

Do you think it makes sense when we meet to just flat out ask her how she feels about going out because it's not that easy for me to tell? I don't want to seem needy but as I said she has not once initiated communication (except for the very first notification she made online when I knew she was interested in me) and she's pretty to the point in texts. Most women I've talked to in the past seemed to at least be much more heavy text users even if they quickly decided we weren't a good fit. 

It doesn't appear like she has any hesitation meeting it's just that my concern is since I'm not getting much information about how she feels I'm more inclined to make only conversation. I gave her a hug upon greeting and departing during the 2nd date to see how she reacted to that and it felt like her response was a bit lukewarm as she didn't really return the hug. I'm sure that's not the best sign but given what I know about her I think it's a chance she's just not that expressive. I'm glad during our walk she chose not to wear a mask (she says she wears one due to her working at a clinic) and we could talk openly but she chose to put one on as we walked in the mall before we left (which logically makes sense).   

I'm not trying to pressure her into doing anything and if she really wants to go slow, that's fine but am I right in trying to get some confirmation?        

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, dragonwalker said:

Do you think it makes sense when we meet to just flat out ask her how she feels about going out because it's not that easy for me to tell?

It's going quite well, you don't need to ask her. 

[dragonwalker]

On 8/5/2022 at 11:15 AM, Wiseman2 said:

It's going quite well, you don't need to ask her. 

Ok, that's good to hear from someone else. We are going to just be meeting for lunch tomorrow at a cafe that she suggested, we made no plans to do anything else afterward. The food seems pretty casual. Should I go ahead and pay? It's not really about the money but much more about the proper etiquette. I think it's one of those places you order at the front and pick up so not a sit down with waiter, very informal.  

Earlier in the week she had mentioned something about liking orchids that led to me saying something about her being a special person and using an emoticon of an orchid to her. I was thinking of bringing some real orchids for her as something nice because she had mentioned she likes/plants them and because of the friendly banter we had earlier in the week. Yes? No? 

We had discussed going to a museum earlier in the week which she said maybe going another time. I had the thought of maybe suggesting going to another one closer by as sort of something to do as I think a simple lunch might be a bit short. 

[Wiseman2]

30 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

The food seems pretty casual. Should I go ahead and pay? I was thinking of bringing some real orchids for her as something nice because she had mentioned she likes/plants them and because of the friendly banter we had earlier in the week. Yes? No? 

Yes pay. No gifts. But if she's into flowers maybe suggest a botanical garden after lunch.

[Versacehottie]

On 8/1/2022 at 5:19 PM, dragonwalker said:

One thing I think may work is going to the Los Angeles Philharmonic at a place called the Hollywood Bowl. One of the few things she says she likes as a hobby is playing piano and cello and I think the philharmonic might be something she may be interested in going. Traditionally at this venue people will often pack or make their own food and kind of have like a picnic in the evening listening to the music. I was thinking either suggesting we each make our own as I'm not sure she'd be up for us making it before hand together. The tickets are like $80 each so a bit pricey not sure if again I should pick up the tab or accept an offer from her to pay if she wanted to go. 

 

Anything at the Hollywood Bowl is super fun. it's definitely great to bring picnic items, including wine if you drink. The setting itself is magical. Ok, just a warning as you sound sort of shy and like less frantic things are the vibe of you two right now. Even for a classical music show at the Hollywood Bowl, it's pretty chaotic and lots of hipsters. Just something to keep in mind.  Total guess here but if you two are still a little awkward around each other, being in an environment that's sort of intense could amplify the awkwardness. If I were in your shoes, suggest it to her as something you could do in the future together. I know the season has an end date---hopefully you will go on a few more dates before it does and then you can manage this sort of environment. Lol, if I'm wrong about you two just throw my advice out of the window--it really depends on your personalities individually as well as how you are together. I'm guessing that since you guys keep choosing more mellow things to do...that this might just feel like "too much" if you do it too soon. The classic show that I've been to there was just a little notch below any of the wilder shows I've been to there in terms of intensity of the crowd and all that...people don't mess around when it comes to their Hollywood Bowl picnicking

I think IMO it's be great if you paid. I wouldn't accept an offer from her to pay really...AND definitely do not suggest she bring her food and you bring yours!!! NO!  If anything, go together beforehand to a nice (food) store or wine shop or deli to grab things you can bring to the event. I think you should still pay (lol that's me) but perhaps you could split if she insisted. I think it's better to trade off dates or if she wanted to take you for a drink, coffee or desert afterward and pay that's good. i think if you offer an event/date, you should pay. There will probably be times where she insists on paying--hopefully you can feel those out---but I wouldn't count on that as you budget where you can go. If you can't afford that event, don't go to that event. There are similar things like that around. Or you can do one element of that event (like the music) or the picnic...or stuff under the stars. Plenty of ideas. Lots of the museums also do summer nights concerts (often featuring classical music) which might be a little cheaper or free even and less chaotic. I just did a little google for you and there are plenty of ideas. I did it so quickly so I didn't see where they are right now but the Getty and Hammer museums have them and LACMA, as well as Santa Anita grounds (thinking maybe you guys live near that since you went to arboretum).

Ok like wiseman said you are doing fine. Don't overthink it and just have fun. With the beginning dates that should be the goal and getting more comfortable with each other IMO. (for some people perhaps sorting out intentions but if anything, it seems like you guys--from my little knowledge--seem aligned). I think if you are a little timid (based on the questions you are asking here)...it's too much to try to define the relationship and all that. Don't want to force someone else's routine or what you've learned online onto her or where you think you "should" be.  IMO, you both need to be in a bit more confident, comfortable frame of mind. If she keeps accepting and you keep asking, that will happen. I'd imagine she will also ask. If anything I would make sure communication stays consistent and progressing on the days you don't see each other. Good luck

[dragonwalker]

5 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

Anything at the Hollywood Bowl is super fun. it's definitely great to bring picnic items, including wine if you drink. The setting itself is magical. Ok, just a warning as you sound sort of shy and like less frantic things are the vibe of you two right now. Even for a classical music show at the Hollywood Bowl, it's pretty chaotic and lots of hipsters. Just something to keep in mind.  Total guess here but if you two are still a little awkward around each other, being in an environment that's sort of intense could amplify the awkwardness. If I were in your shoes, suggest it to her as something you could do in the future together. I know the season has an end date---hopefully you will go on a few more dates before it does and then you can manage this sort of environment. Lol, if I'm wrong about you two just throw my advice out of the window--it really depends on your personalities individually as well as how you are together. I'm guessing that since you guys keep choosing more mellow things to do...that this might just feel like "too much" if you do it too soon. The classic show that I've been to there was just a little notch below any of the wilder shows I've been to there in terms of intensity of the crowd and all that...people don't mess around when it comes to their Hollywood Bowl picnicking

I think IMO it's be great if you paid. I wouldn't accept an offer from her to pay really...AND definitely do not suggest she bring her food and you bring yours!!! NO!  If anything, go together beforehand to a nice (food) store or wine shop or deli to grab things you can bring to the event. I think you should still pay (lol that's me) but perhaps you could split if she insisted. I think it's better to trade off dates or if she wanted to take you for a drink, coffee or desert afterward and pay that's good. i think if you offer an event/date, you should pay. There will probably be times where she insists on paying--hopefully you can feel those out---but I wouldn't count on that as you budget where you can go. If you can't afford that event, don't go to that event. There are similar things like that around. Or you can do one element of that event (like the music) or the picnic...or stuff under the stars. Plenty of ideas. Lots of the museums also do summer nights concerts (often featuring classical music) which might be a little cheaper or free even and less chaotic. I just did a little google for you and there are plenty of ideas. I did it so quickly so I didn't see where they are right now but the Getty and Hammer museums have them and LACMA, as well as Santa Anita grounds (thinking maybe you guys live near that since you went to arboretum).

Ok like wiseman said you are doing fine. Don't overthink it and just have fun. With the beginning dates that should be the goal and getting more comfortable with each other IMO. (for some people perhaps sorting out intentions but if anything, it seems like you guys--from my little knowledge--seem aligned). I think if you are a little timid (based on the questions you are asking here)...it's too much to try to define the relationship and all that. Don't want to force someone else's routine or what you've learned online onto her or where you think you "should" be.  IMO, you both need to be in a bit more confident, comfortable frame of mind. If she keeps accepting and you keep asking, that will happen. I'd imagine she will also ask. If anything I would make sure communication stays consistent and progressing on the days you don't see each other. Good luck

Thanks for the advice on the Hollywood Bowl, it's been at least a decade since I went and good to keep in mind about the energy level. Yes you are correct I think we are both relatively lower energy people (I think I'm markedly higher though). Yep, I ask a lot of questions because my confidence in these things is just so low. As I said I do believe our time is going fine, no major awkwardness or faux paus that I can detect. I'll use your advice on the paying. I'll avoid those more serious questions as I imagine it probably would introduce an element of awkwardness anyway. I was frankly a little lukewarm to her before we first met but in my mind I've also been starting to like her more and hopefully she feels the same. Thanks again and more questions to come if I can keep it up...  

[Versacehottie]

Just saw this one cool sounding thing called: Candlelight-Los Angeles they sound a bit smaller and are classical music...$35 per ticket. Actually doing something off the beaten path like that, to me, sounds really special. 

One of the first events I looked at on there seems like it's held in a church and they put candles everywhere..and then play classic music. This sounds also magical. 

[Versacehottie]

1 minute ago, dragonwalker said:

Thanks for the advice on the Hollywood Bowl, it's been at least a decade since I went and good to keep in mind about the energy level. Yes you are correct I think we are both relatively lower energy people (I think I'm markedly higher though). Yep, I ask a lot of questions because my confidence in these things is just so low. As I said I do believe our time is going fine, no major awkwardness or faux paus that I can detect. I'll use your advice on the paying.

Oh well if you managed it before, I think you know what to expect. I think it would be hard if neither of you had been (and are slightly awkward with each other) trying to make your way, fight your way through a ton of people amp'd up to get their spot for hollywood bowl.  It definitely helps when the guy knows his way around and if you've been there before you do.  But yeah if you aren't sure about her...you might choose a more intimate classical music setting or with more breathing room. I don't want to discourage you...if you think you can both manage it--it's awesome.

 

5 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

I'll avoid those more serious questions as I imagine it probably would introduce an element of awkwardness anyway.

To me, that's why the goal is to continue getting more comfortable with each other. You want to lay the groundwork and protect your (time/effort) investment by building a good foundation so that those conversations about the relationship progressing are just a confirmation and reflection of what is happening in real time/in actions.  So I wouldn't necessarily say "avoid it" but rather lay the groundwork and don't force it. Good luck

[dragonwalker]

22 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

Oh well if you managed it before, I think you know what to expect. I think it would be hard if neither of you had been (and are slightly awkward with each other) trying to make your way, fight your way through a ton of people amp'd up to get their spot for hollywood bowl.  It definitely helps when the guy knows his way around and if you've been there before you do.  But yeah if you aren't sure about her...you might choose a more intimate classical music setting or with more breathing room. I don't want to discourage you...if you think you can both manage it--it's awesome.

 

To me, that's why the goal is to continue getting more comfortable with each other. You want to lay the groundwork and protect your (time/effort) investment by building a good foundation so that those conversations about the relationship progressing are just a confirmation and reflection of what is happening in real time/in actions.  So I wouldn't necessarily say "avoid it" but rather lay the groundwork and don't force it. Good luck

Ok, so I went on date #3, it started out with the planned lunch. More talk, it went fine. I suggested toward the end of it maybe going to a museum. She apparently recently had gone to that same one. She suggested the Huntington, I agreed and we met up there. We spent a good 2 hours there, walking and talking (it's basically a very nice big park and several art galleries on site). Now two embarrassing things happened. 

At one point when I thought it was a good opportunity I went to go hold her hand as we were walking. While I held her hand for like 10 seconds her hand was completely limp, she didn't say anything and I just made some unrelated comment then she moved her hand away. Ok, embarrassed, we just sort of continued on as normal with the walking and conversation. I asked how she felt afterward about maybe going to the Hollywood Bowl which she said may be a good idea.  Finally, when we were leaving I gave her a hug and was trying to move in to give her a kiss on the cheek, missed and due to poor timing/positioning I ended up kissing her ear..yup, I quickly left hoping she didn't notice but 99% sure she did. 

I'm not sure what to think, part of me thinks since I did both things so awkwardly she didn't reciprocate but then part of me is wondering if it was to much to ask if she could have "helped me out" here. Anyway, I'm thinking of texted her back later asking if either of those two things made her feel uncomfortable or should I just ignore it and continue ok planning date #4 sometime next week?   

[Versacehottie]

The Huntington is gorgeous..this sounds like a good idea for you two.  (just a side note: who did she go to the "other" museum with? that she didn't want to go with you to "again"...that's important in case you think she is actively dating someone else). 

In general, I think it was just too soon for her for the physical touch/kiss thing. And or she's too shy or it's too public. Also if you were awkward about it and not feeling confident and sort of "pounced" thinking you NEED to move things forward with her physically, ie you put those actions on your to-do list rather than feeling the moment. Did you think you did that? I think the challenge for you, regardless of how you think you did, is to judge the moment better. If she recoiled or didn't reciprocate in the case of the hand-holding, no matter what you misjudged the moment. I'm going to guess if she's shy, it's just too public for her (although I can imagine you might have been in an area where there was no one nearby). I think bright daylight also would maybe deter a shy person.

sure she could have helped you out...but the key is you have to both feel the moment. Hopefully you will know better the next time. Are you very experienced with women? I would guess as a doctor perhaps she spent so much time on school that she isn't very experienced. Is she?  You have to calibrate for these things. 

2 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

Anyway, I'm thinking of texted her back later asking if either of those two things made her feel uncomfortable or should I just ignore it and continue ok planning date #4 sometime next week?  

Well i wouldn't do that (or appreciate it) if I jump into what I guess would be her mindset...is she good at expressing herself with words? I'm guessing not much (yet)...Sounds like you guys are more at the surface level right now...IMO, asking outright like this is more awkwardness and pushy...I guess you have to ask yourself what is your real goal with it or what do you expect or hope her answer will be? How do you think a conversation like that will go down? 

Lol I would probably just ignore it and go on the next date. Like I said the goal is to get more comfortable with each other. If there was a way that you could jokingly and innocently bring it up in person, I wouldn't be opposed to that--but I also don't think (from what you said) that this is how you guys are communicating...so I think it will feel forced and that you are bent out of shape about it.  Others may have some good ideas. A lot of people will tell you to to be honest and ask her...idk, she already acts skittish...I don't think it's because she is uninterested, I just think it's her version of too much, too soon. 

[Ami1uwant]

Depending how the dates were and what you did. Holding hands should not be a problem.  If you are holding hands, a basic kiss should not be a problem.   If she turned away from it, you shouldn’t feel embarrassed  by it because you didn’t do anything wrong.

i personally wouldn’t do anything very formal or too expensive early on.  I don’t know how the orchestra is and what sort of dress ie expected.  If you can go dressing casually that is fine.

did you talk about shared interests?   I know you talked about it…her playing classical music instruments usually coincides with an interest in music and the arts.

Doing someth8ng with stores to walk into and people watch are always good conversation places. In LA many of the towns along the beach have places with shops along the beach.

 

 

 

 

 

[dragonwalker]

32 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

The Huntington is gorgeous..this sounds like a good idea for you two.  (just a side note: who did she go to the "other" museum with? that she didn't want to go with you to "again"...that's important in case you think she is actively dating someone else). 

In general, I think it was just too soon for her for the physical touch/kiss thing. And or she's too shy or it's too public. Also if you were awkward about it and not feeling confident and sort of "pounced" thinking you NEED to move things forward with her physically, ie you put those actions on your to-do list rather than feeling the moment. Did you think you did that? I think the challenge for you, regardless of how you think you did, is to judge the moment better. If she recoiled or didn't reciprocate in the case of the hand-holding, no matter what you misjudged the moment. I'm going to guess if she's shy, it's just too public for her (although I can imagine you might have been in an area where there was no one nearby). I think bright daylight also would maybe deter a shy person.

sure she could have helped you out...but the key is you have to both feel the moment. Hopefully you will know better the next time. Are you very experienced with women? I would guess as a doctor perhaps she spent so much time on school that she isn't very experienced. Is she?  You have to calibrate for these things. 

Well i wouldn't do that (or appreciate it) if I jump into what I guess would be her mindset...is she good at expressing herself with words? I'm guessing not much (yet)...Sounds like you guys are more at the surface level right now...IMO, asking outright like this is more awkwardness and pushy...I guess you have to ask yourself what is your real goal with it or what do you expect or hope her answer will be? How do you think a conversation like that will go down? 

Lol I would probably just ignore it and go on the next date. Like I said the goal is to get more comfortable with each other. If there was a way that you could jokingly and innocently bring it up in person, I wouldn't be opposed to that--but I also don't think (from what you said) that this is how you guys are communicating...so I think it will feel forced and that you are bent out of shape about it.  Others may have some good ideas. A lot of people will tell you to to be honest and ask her...idk, she already acts skittish...I don't think it's because she is uninterested, I just think it's her version of too much, too soon. 

I don't know who she went out with to the other museum. I have heard of no indication that she is also currently seeing anyone else. I believe I've also not given any indication in that matter but I am not (I am lucky enough as is to get even one lol). About the hand holding, I had thought to at least try that if there was a good opportunity. Ofcourse the best ones occurred earlier in our walk but she had this bag on her arm and I was waiting for the best time AND if she didn't have anything in the arm. Finally, her arm was free, it was ok time, there wasn't anywhere around and I just sort of held her hand. As I said there was no reaction so maybe she was just surprised?? 

I would say I'm quite inexperienced with women in the dating situation. My feeling is that even though she is a doctor, she is inexperienced as well with other men in this regard. I guess my possible goal with bringing it up was just acknowledging the awkwardness and that I didn't mean to be disrespectful although I think even she can realize it was just awkward. I am leaning toward just ignoring it. I think it's the combination of both of our shyness in this situation that makes awkwardness highly probable.  

I forgot something that speaks to her I think shyness was randomly as we were walking past some people who were taking photos, they asked me if I could take one of them. I did and then one of them asked if we wanted a photo. I instinctively said yes gave them my phone, got near (her), put my arms around her, smiled, and posed for the shot. I remember as I said yes I thought I may have heard her begin to start saying no and during the photo she like didn't move at all. Later, I did see that she smiled but thinking back I definitely felt the lack of warmth that a lot of women just naturally exude. It's not that she's cold, it's more she's very non-emotive so not much body language to observe although her words tell me she's putting effort into conversation and listening so I think it's a good sign.    

A few times during the time there wasn't much for us to say as we just walked and observed. I seem to be having more instances now of having trouble figuring what else to say or ask.  

[dragonwalker]

15 minutes ago, Ami1uwant said:

Depending how the dates were and what you did. Holding hands should not be a problem.  If you are holding hands, a basic kiss should not be a problem.   If she turned away from it, you shouldn’t feel embarrassed  by it because you didn’t do anything wrong.

i personally wouldn’t do anything very formal or too expensive early on.  I don’t know how the orchestra is and what sort of dress ie expected.  If you can go dressing casually that is fine.

did you talk about shared interests?   I know you talked about it…her playing classical music instruments usually coincides with an interest in music and the arts.

Doing someth8ng with stores to walk into and people watch are always good conversation places. In LA many of the towns along the beach have places with shops along the beach.

 

 

 

 

 

It wasn't so much that she turned away from the kiss. I dunno, we hugged which at the time it felt like she knew I was going to do that I think she returned it gently and then we moved apart momentarily, and then I moved in again and she turned her head slightly and I just missed lol, I am so bad. 

[Versacehottie]

17 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

About the hand holding, I had thought to at least try that if there was a good opportunity. Ofcourse the best ones occurred earlier in our walk but she had this bag on her arm and I was waiting for the best time AND if she didn't have anything in the arm. Finally, her arm was free, it was ok time, there wasn't anywhere around and I just sort of held her hand. As I said there was no reaction so maybe she was just surprised?? 

What are you using to determine "a good opportunity" to grab the hand or place a kiss?  I think you might be using "a good opportunity" too widely or misdirected....you seemed to be looking for a physical moment in time where hand was free, perhaps swinging with yours in unison. Or kiss, just because it was the end of the date. I think you need to look for and create the EMOTIONAL moment that is a good opportunity. Look for opportunities, where she softens or is at her most "free". I also think regarding hand holding that it can start out with play fighting, playfulness and then it morphs into an actual hand holding or that when you do that for real, the touch barrier has been broken so that it's more comfortable. I think lots of people sort of bump into each other (not explaining well), brush each other, guy maybe brief puts hand on back to guide, lead BEFORE things become as direct as hand holding. Saying that for shy people. Like you have to almost think like an 7th or 8th grader would do it. In reality, if both of you are inexperienced as far as dating that might be where you are in dating years. No harm, just go back to that start point. As adults it will probably progress faster than 7th graders once you get started. Anyway physical progress isn't what you should be concentrating on IMO--unless you don't like her because of how she is acting. I'm not sure what you think. 

IMO, if a guy has a physical goal in mind, like trying to make sure he's achieved xyz goal, it's most likely going to come off as a pounce. Especially if the emotional context is not behind the moment that happens. I think you need to make sure you are growing closer emotionally..that's equally important. Don't just want to stay surface/too slow. Even shy people would speed things up if they feel comfortable with you or roll with it.

17 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

I instinctively said yes gave them my phone, got near (her), put my arms around her, smiled, and posed for the shot. I remember as I said yes

I think this is good of you and confident. A good example of small touches that should have her eventually feeling more comfortable. I'm not sure why she said no. Are you ok with all of her hesitation?

 

17 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

A few times during the time there wasn't much for us to say as we just walked and observed. I seem to be having more instances now of having trouble figuring what else to say or ask. 

Well this is the question: do you like her and want to see things keep progressing?  Or are you lukewarm/unsure? Or are you put off by her in actuality and just trying to see it through for some reason? I think you are having trouble figuring out what to say because you guys have stayed surface and facts...once you've exchanged all the facts, but if you've failed to make a rapport with someone, then you'd naturally get stuck or it would start to feel repetitive, stagnant. Need to work on developing your rapport with each other. I would recommend, talking about your present and make observations about things, that could lead to other deeper discussions about life, belief about life, etc and to talk about stuff you want to do in the future--not necessarily as a couple but as an individual and ask her about her future ideas. I think another good thing is to add banter and playfulness, humor (natural) wherever you can. Also rift off of previous things you know about her, remember, noticed...like bring them back up, build upon them, banter. Teasing (but you need to be careful if it does not come naturally) and don't overdo any of this because it will be like you are trying too hard. ok, good luck

[dragonwalker]

3 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

What are you using to determine "a good opportunity" to grab the hand or place a kiss?  I think you might be using "a good opportunity" too widely or misdirected....you seemed to be looking for a physical moment in time where hand was free, perhaps swinging with yours in unison. Or kiss, just because it was the end of the date. I think you need to look for and create the EMOTIONAL moment that is a good opportunity. Look for opportunities, where she softens or is at her most "free". I also think regarding hand holding that it can start out with play fighting, playfulness and then it morphs into an actual hand holding or that when you do that for real, the touch barrier has been broken so that it's more comfortable. I think lots of people sort of bump into each other (not explaining well), brush each other, guy maybe brief puts hand on back to guide, lead BEFORE things become as direct as hand holding. Saying that for shy people. Like you have to almost think like an 7th or 8th grader would do it. In reality, if both of you are inexperienced as far as dating that might be where you are in dating years. No harm, just go back to that start point. As adults it will probably progress faster than 7th graders once you get started. Anyway physical progress isn't what you should be concentrating on IMO--unless you don't like her because of how she is acting. I'm not sure what you think. 

IMO, if a guy has a physical goal in mind, like trying to make sure he's achieved xyz goal, it's most likely going to come off as a pounce. Especially if the emotional context is not behind the moment that happens. I think you need to make sure you are growing closer emotionally..that's equally important. Don't just want to stay surface/too slow. Even shy people would speed things up if they feel comfortable with you or roll with it.

I think this is good of you and confident. A good example of small touches that should have her eventually feeling more comfortable. I'm not sure why she said no. Are you ok with all of her hesitation?

 

Well this is the question: do you like her and want to see things keep progressing?  Or are you lukewarm/unsure? Or are you put off by her in actuality and just trying to see it through for some reason? I think you are having trouble figuring out what to say because you guys have stayed surface and facts...once you've exchanged all the facts, but if you've failed to make a rapport with someone, then you'd naturally get stuck or it would start to feel repetitive, stagnant. Need to work on developing your rapport with each other. I would recommend, talking about your present and make observations about things, that could lead to other deeper discussions about life, belief about life, etc and to talk about stuff you want to do in the future--not necessarily as a couple but as an individual and ask her about her future ideas. I think another good thing is to add banter and playfulness, humor (natural) wherever you can. Also rift off of previous things you know about her, remember, noticed...like bring them back up, build upon them, banter. Teasing (but you need to be careful if it does not come naturally) and don't overdo any of this because it will be like you are trying too hard. ok, good luck

As far as the opportunity to hold her hand I picked a moment that was quiet, peaceful, and seemed calm and tranquil as we were walking to do it. Ok it's true I didn't build up it so to speak. She's not a very playful person, actually she's quite serious most of the time. I'd like to think I'm more naturally playful but her not really being that way put me off a little being that way. It's not that I wanted to achieve a particular goal but I kind of wanted to see how she felt about being touched in general. 

About the photo thing, to be clear she didn't actually say no but she didn't say yes, it was silence and it looked like she might have started to say something. Again I think maybe she was just shy.  Her behavior is contributing somewhat to me thinking perhaps she is not that into me. I'm a bit lukewarm but there are a lot of things about her that kind of remind me of myself meaning I think we are compatible in that way. In our conversations there were a few things I managed to get her to laugh a little about but it was here and there. 

I know this is superficial but I'm not quite sure I'm physically attracted to her. In both of her photos online and every time I've been with her she is wearing something poorly fitted (much larger than her size) or thick fabric, very plain or solid patterns with loose fitting pants. It's like I can't see her feminine side. From what I can tell she is quite thin and doesn't have anything obviously embarrassing  but what she wears reminds me of what a conservative grandma might wear. She did have some makeup on but literally nothing else jewelry, accessories, fragrance, color, style,  just wasn't very lively. I'm by no means very attractive or stylish myself but I feel like there was something missing. I'm trying to overlook the superficial aspects but I think that might help to put a picture of her personality together.       

However to me some of the qualities I like about her are that she seems kind, agreeable, intelligent, and gentle. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by dragonwalker

[dragonwalker]

For those of you interested I have a previous post where I go into detail about how this situation I have a question on started. The short and skinny is we are both 34, live in LA, she’s a doctor and I work at an office. We are both modest people and I think neither of us have much dating experience. She is very modest by outward appearances (imagine someone dressing conservatively for church) is her style on every date so far.

Anyway, we have very similar temperaments, beliefs and some interests and we carry on conversations well. However, in the 5 times I’ve met her each spending anywhere from 2-4 hours we have just talked and practically done nothing physical aside from during the 2nd date when I tried to hold her hand and she kind of didn’t return my grasp and it was a little awkward. I asked her about it later and she said that we should just continue to know more about each other. Not a big deal but my limited experience says this is typically very unusual.  

Respecting that I’ve kept to conversation all the while. I’m going to meet her tomorrow for the 6th date for lunch and a walk around a town center but I’m wondering where this is going.

I do like her but there are a few big concerns. First, I’m not that physically attracted to her and her actions and silence on anything else besides conversation kind of makes me wonder a bit if she feels likewise or if she is just more reserved when it comes to that. On the first point, being as objective as I can I’d say she’s not conventionally attractive however as I talk to her and enjoy her company my feelings on that are changing, albeit slowly. In my mind I do actually think physical attractiveness is probably the least important factor in a long-term relationship with a goal of marriage and family.

On the second point, based on what I know about her personality, actions, general lifestyle I think her expression of interest in me is probably muted not necessarily because she doesn’t like me but she doesn’t express it openly that way. Which ironically is a lot like me because I feel I do have some difficulty expressing romantic interest. However, every time I’ve asked if she wanted to go out she’s been quick to agree and I like that she doesn’t play games and seems very genuine.

Others on here have suggested I just continue things and I’m on the right path but this was maybe a month ago and now that I’ve seen her for close to 2 months I wanted to see if anyone had some suggestions or advice on how this is going?  

I’m wondering this being the 6th time I will see her if asking her about some personal things regarding long term might be alright. Such as, what is it that she might expect from someone she would be with long term I’m talking about like things she wouldn’t accept or things that are really important for a guy to have (whether that be materially or otherwise). Our conversations are all stuff that are pretty mundane and after 4-5 times sometimes repeats (she doesn’t have a whole lot going on in her life) so sometimes when we talk it like more information about what she and I do and not necessarily about who we truly are as people. Hope that makes sense.