He loves me, he loves me not.

[Kyra]

I have this amazing relationship with an older man (I'm kinda old myself). We've been together over 5 years. I am head over heels in love with him. He's my best friend. We have shared interests, similar values, great conversations, fun and adventures and the most incredible sex life. Of course there's a "but". Nothing can be perfect right? 

I know he cares about me; he is nearly always loving, affectionate and considerate, but there's been a few times (the latest was yesterday) when he breaks my heart because he comes across so uncaring. He always says it was just a misunderstanding and maybe it was. Maybe I'm not very clear to him when I'm upset and he's rubbish at getting it and clueless how to respond and how much he's hurting me. I find that hard to accept though. I can't comprehend not responding with concern and trying to help when someone you love is upset, so it seems proof to me that he doesn't love me. I'm sure he cares but I can't tell if it's the way he should care or if its more superficial and not deep enough to inspire him to go to any real effort or sacrifice to make me happy.

Thing is, even if he does truly love me and I just overreacted to another misunderstanding, I fear I shouldn't let myself believe he loves me because I know this will happen again and I can't bear the thought of feeling like this again. The more I believe he loves me, the more it hurts when he acts like he doesn't care. After last time I thought we could avoid another misunderstanding because I figured I would let him know when his response sounded cold and uncaring, then he would correct it immediately without the 3 day fight and heartache. So yesterday I tried that but it just made it worse. I spent the whole day crying on the lounge convinced he doesn't love me. It seems we are both rubbish at handling such discussions.

It seems like the only way I can avoid such situations in the future is to never tell him I'm upset expecting him to express concern or sympathy. It's not that he never does. He often does. But if I say there's something in our relationship making me unhappy and his response is apparently that he won't meet with me to talk about it, I can't help but think he doesn't give a crap about how I feel. And then we fight and I'll want to break up. 

He says the problem is just that I don't trust him. I don't know why I should. I think trusting him is just setting myself up to be heartbroken again sometime. I feel like I can only save myself from that by not trusting or believing that he loves me; that I would have to see the relationship as friendship, sex and fun but not love. I must never again let myself think he loves me. But that in itself is agony. I can't stop crying at the thought he doesn't love me. But I suppose I'd get used to it.

I suppose I will end up doing what I did before - deciding he loves me because its too painful to think he doesn't.

 

Don't bother telling me to dump him and find someone who loves me. I broke up with him a couple of years ago for same reason but I couldn't make it stick. Like an addict I went crawling back to him after a few days. And I don't want "someone who loves me". I don't need love, I just want HIS love. I want him whether he loves me or not.

[BaileyB]

Can I ask what he did that has you so upset?

[Kyra]

Several weeks ago I told him that I was still troubled by old issues and thought we should talk it out so I could feel more confident about the relationship and because having unresolved stuff means it piles on to new issues. He asked to put off talking about it while he was dealing with his daughter's issues. That seemed reasonable and I agreed. Then this week something reminded me of the issue and thinking about it made me upset, so I felt the need to talk about it and it seems like his daughter's ok so I told him what I just said. apparently he didn't understand I was asking to talk and although my text said I had been getting "upset" and feeling "miserable" for a few days he said that I hadn't said I was upset - clearly he didn't take much in at all. He's very busy so we don't see each over often - about once a fortnight now - but I expected him to at least say, ok we should try to meet next week to talk. I'm in covid isolation this week. He said, "I don't know what to say. We can't meet for a bit then we have that function in 2 weeks".

I took this to mean that he was not going to even try to find an hour or two to see me before the function. And he expressed no sympathy about me being upset so he seemed really unconcerned about my feelings. But given his past history of being crap at such things I gave him the benefit of the doubt and tried to explain that he sounded uncaring and hurtful but he took offence at my wording which included, "You're supposed to express concern and want to help." He said "Don't tell me how I'm supposed to feel or act!" Which sounded to me like he's saying, No, I don't feel concern and don't tell me I should. There was a bit of an angry exchange then he pissed off leaving me to cry all day.

I couldn't comprehend that he would give such a uncaring response if he truly cared. He says I should just trust and assume he cares and he shouldn't have to say it. Am I being ridiculous?

Edited July 22, 2022 by Kyra
added

[Wiseman2]

36 minutes ago, Kyra said:

We've been together over 5 years. I can't bear the thought of feeling like this again. I spent the whole day crying on the lounge convinced he doesn't love me. I think trusting him is just setting myself up to be heartbroken again sometime.

Unfortunately on/off relationships are fraught with unresolved conflicts and incompatibilities combined with unhealthy attachments and lack of other opportunities.

Why don't you trust him? Is he married?

If you are crying for days at a time see a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Mention the uncontrolled s crying and arguments.  Get some tests done. Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist.

Is this the same man?:

 

[BaileyB]

It’s unfortunate that you are attempting to have a serious discussion with him by text - I know, you wanted to talk with him in person, but what ended up happening was a rather serious discussion by text and that’s never good. 

24 minutes ago, Kyra said:

He took offence at my wording which included, "You're supposed to express concern and want to help." He said "Don't tell me how I'm supposed to feel or act!"

He is not wrong, nobody likes to be told what to do.

To be honest, this sounds little like my relationship at the worst of times… I have a tendency to be more emotional than my partner and I sometimes expect him to be a mind reader/offer support. He is a man - very concrete, and I could absolutely see him missing/ignoring the emotion and focusing on what we have to do (how are we going to have time, we have a function to attend). He also hates having these kinds of discussions by text. I could see him being very exasperated by this… particularly if it happens time, and time again. 

ETA - these kind of communication issues seem to be long standing, as per the above post. Have you ever seen a counsellor - someone who could help you both to talk with each other in a way that you both feel heard and help you to find a way to compromise/deescalate.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by BaileyB

[Kyra]

5 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It’s unfortunate that you are attempting to have a serious discussion with him by text - I know, you wanted to talk with him in person, but what ended up happening was a rather serious discussion by text and that’s never good. 

He is not wrong, nobody likes to be told how they should be responding. It may have gone different had you been able to say “I am asking you to find an hour to meet with me to talk about this.”

To be honest, this sounds little like my relationship at the worst of times… I have a tendency to be more emotional than my partner and I sometimes expect him to be a mind reader/offer support. He is is very concrete, and I could absolutely see him missing/ignoring the emotion and focusing on what we have to do (how are we going to have time, we have a function to attend). He also hates having these kinds of discussions by text. I could see him being very exasperated by this… 

You're right, we have agreed in the past to not have serious discussions by text because of misunderstandings. But as you said, I had to text and make it clear I needed to talk in person ASAP. Thing is we keep making the same mistakes - I text asking to meet and talk but somehow I say it badly then he responds badly then I get angry and turns into a shitstorm. Problem is even if he loves me, even though we know the problem, we can't seem to avoid it, so I don't know how to have a full relationship with him without getting hurt like this every year

[Kyra]

13 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

To be honest, this sounds little like my relationship at the worst of times… I have a tendency to be more emotional than my partner and I sometimes expect him to be a mind reader/offer support. He is is very concrete, and I could absolutely see him missing/ignoring the emotion and focusing on what we have to do (how are we going to have time, we have a function to attend). He also hates having these kinds of discussions by text. I could see him being very exasperated by this… 

Have you found a solution? It must be easier if you live together. He has accused me of expecting him to be a mind reader. I try to be really clear but the more upset I am the less clear I am I guess and what seems obvious to me is mud to him. By the same token it seems he expects me to be a mind reader. Like he later said that he didn't say we couldn't meet! Maybe we're both too old to learn from our mistakes and are just doomed to repeat.

[BaileyB]

5 minutes ago, Kyra said:

You're right, we have agreed in the past to not have serious discussions by text because of misunderstandings. But as you said, I had to text and make it clear I needed to talk in person ASAP. Thing is we keep making the same mistakes - I text asking to meet and talk but somehow I say it badly then he responds badly then I get angry and turns into a shitstorm. Problem is even if he loves me, even though we know the problem, we can't seem to avoid it, so I don't know how to have a full relationship with him without getting hurt like this every year

My question for you Kyra, why does this become a question of “he loves me, he loves me not?”

I’m not going to say that my partner and I communicate well all the time, we are very different people. That said, when we have a problem, my thought is usually “We are not communicating well right now. We need to be more considerate toward each other.” I don’t necessarily go to - “he’s unconcerned with my feelings and he doesn’t love me.” 
 

 

[BaileyB]

19 minutes ago, Kyra said:

It must be easier if you live together.

I would say it’s more challenging, because we are always together and it’s really easy to pick at each other.

But yes, we have also done the distance thing and it’s not easy. 

19 minutes ago, Kyra said:

He has accused me of expecting him to be a mind reader. By the same token it seems he expects me to be a mind reader.

I tell myself all the time - he is not a mind reader. I remind myself that I need to communicate with him (something that is not always easy for me - when I get emotional, I tend to withdraw/shut down). 

I get myself into trouble when I go down the path of “how could he not understand, how does he not feel the same as me, I am right and he is wrong…” I can build a strong case and be very convincing ;), but it doesn’t bring any happiness or harmony to my own peace of mind or my home.

19 minutes ago, Kyra said:

The more upset I am the less clear I am

Personally, I take some time to cool down and we come back to talk about it later. My favourite place to talk - lying in bed together. I feel safe in his arms, we are not even looking at each other (ie not confrontational)… we are both able to talk and listen. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by BaileyB

[Kyra]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

My question for you Kyra, why does this become a question of “he loves me, he loves me not?”

I’m not going to say that my partner and I communicate well all the time, we are very different people. That said, when we have a problem, my thought is usually “We are not communicating well right now. We need to be more considerate toward each other.” I don’t necessarily go to - “he’s unconcerned with my feelings and he doesn’t love me.” 
 

 

That's a really good point. I guess it's because I have spent so much of our relationship trying to figure out whether or not he loves me. He has given me a lot of mixed messages over the years so I have always yo-yoed between confident he does and sure he doesn't (like and respect but not love) and everything in between. I pretty much analyze everything as evidence for one way or the other. 

[Kyra]

This is all really helpful and wise! 

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I get myself into trouble when I go down the path of “how could he not understand, how does he not feel the same as me, I am right and he is wrong…” I can build a strong case and be very convincing ;), but it doesn’t bring any happiness or harmony to my own peace of mind or my home.

This is the thing. I can't understand how he doesn't understand, doesn't hear my pain and doesn't respond the way I expect and need. Even after he explains that he didn't know I was upset and didn't mean it that way, I want to believe him but it doesn't make sense to me. The only way it can make sense to me is if he doesn't care. My ex-husband was sensitive and communicative and we never had issues like that (plenty of different ones!) so it's completely foreign to me

[Kyra]

41 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

ETA - these kind of communication issues seem to be long standing, as per the above post. Have you ever seen a counsellor - someone who could help you both to talk with each other in a way that you both feel heard and help you to find a way to compromise/deescalate.  

I would like that but I don't think he would agree, but I should ask him

[FMW]

1 hour ago, Kyra said:

I think trusting him is just setting myself up to be heartbroken again sometime. I feel like I can only save myself from that by not trusting or believing that he loves me; that I would have to see the relationship as friendship, sex and fun but not love. I must never again let myself think he loves me.

I think you have a lot of fear that has nothing to do with him personally. It also sounds like the time apart has a lot to do with the communication problems.  It's difficult to deal with issues when you only have a limited amount of time to spend together.  Too much time to think about this on your own, without his input, is allowing you to spiral down into an unhealthy state of mind.  Do you have girlfriends, sisters, etc. that you can talk to?  Someone who knows him and knows how you are together?   

As Bailey touched on, I think it's very common that women are much more emotional than men.  When the man we love responds to our emotion in a flat, rational way it can hurt our feelings.  We think they are being insensitive, they think we're being a little nutty. 

When I start getting myself all worked up over something I try to stop and look at it from my guy's point of view.  I know him pretty well, I know how he thinks, how he acts.  And I know how he shows his love for me.  It may not always be the way romantic movies and books tell us it should be, it may not always be the way I might like it sometimes  But if I pay attention and appreciate him for who he is, it's very clear he loves me.   And when I get my own emotional impulses under control, sometimes I see that how he shows me he loves me is more beautiful than anything I would have thought of myself. 

[Kyra]

2 minutes ago, FMW said:

It also sounds like the time apart has a lot to do with the communication problems.  It's difficult to deal with issues when you only have a limited amount of time to spend together.  Too much time to think about this on your own, without his input, is allowing you to spiral down into an unhealthy state of mind.  Do you have girlfriends, sisters, etc. that you can talk to?  Someone who knows him and knows how you are together?   

As Bailey touched on, I think it's very common that women are much more emotional than men.  When the man we love responds to our emotion in a flat, rational way it can hurt our feelings.  We think they are being insensitive, they think we're being a little nutty. 

Very true! 

[BaileyB]

21 minutes ago, FMW said:

When the man we love responds to our emotion in a flat, rational way it can hurt our feelings.  We think they are being insensitive, they think we're being a little nutty. 

Well said. 

21 minutes ago, FMW said:

When I start getting myself all worked up over something I try to stop and look at it from my guy's point of view.  I know him pretty well, I know how he thinks, how he acts.  And I know how he shows his love for me.  It may not always be the way romantic movies and books tell us it should be, it may not always be the way I might like it sometimes  But if I pay attention and appreciate him for who he is, it's very clear he loves me.   And when I get my own emotional impulses under control, sometimes I see that how he shows me he loves me is more beautiful than anything I would have thought of myself. 

Very true. And while it may not always be what I want, I too try to appreciate what he does do. 

41 minutes ago, Kyra said:

I can't understand how he doesn't understand, doesn't hear my pain and doesn't respond the way I expect and need.

Because he is not you. 

There are two issues here. One - does he hear your pain and does he show concern. That should be a yes - if he doesn’t listen to you and doesn’t express consideration/empathy then you should not be in a relationship with the man - full stop. 

That said, if this is a pattern of behavior than it is a rather unhealthy pattern and he may well be tired of your need for reassurance/tuning you out. Kyra, I don’t know what the issue is here exactly but at the end of the day, you are responsible for managing your own emotions. Be careful that you are not expecting him to manage your emotions - he’s not going to want to do that. 

The second issue is - he doesn’t respond the way that you think he should respond. And to that, I would say simply - he is not you.

An example, my family says “I love you” every time we say goodbye. My partner does not do that - his family was not nearly as close. I have told him that I would like him to say it, I don’t understand why he can’t do something that I think is a simple ask that costs him nothing - and yet, he doesn’t do it. He has joked with me that I should assume it’s true unless he tells me otherwise ;). (And then, he says it). I don’t get it, and sometimes it annoys me. But then, I remember that there are other things he does that say “I love you.” And when he does say it, I know that he really means it. So, I try to let go of the need for him to do something because I think he should… and I know he will have similar examples… many examples.

Edited July 22, 2022 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

30 minutes ago, Kyra said:

I would like that but I don't think he would agree, but I should ask him

If not, do you have the ability to see an individual counsellor. I think it would allow you someone to talk with - sometimes just saying the things we feel to someone feels better. It would help to be sure that you are speaking with intention and that you have realistic expectations. It could give you some strategies - because, what I get from your posts is that you would really like him to change… but the only person you control is yourself. So, if you could become more intentional and knowledgeable about your communication and your intentions in this relationship, that’s not a bad thing… It can only help. 

[Lotsgoingon]

It doesn't sound to me like you're stepping into your full power. You have power here. Sounds to me like you're politely begging for him to listen to you. No. You want to say, "I need to talk and I need to talk now. It's urgent!" If you cannot do that, then you need to practice doing that. 

You're being vague about being upset, and that allows him to be evasive. But if you were direct, you would get a clear answer to whether he can respond to you in a good way or not. 

You're also just wrong about love. Love is not what gets people to consider other people's feelings. Some of the worst relationships in the world have tons of "love." There are violent abusers who legitimately feel love for their partners. There are people who are psychologically wounded or just emotionally blocked who feel love for their partners. But feeling love is not incompatible with being violent, mean, dismissive, cruel--or just cold and distant. 

You need to update some software here. Love does not mean kindness, warmth, and maturity to own what they feel. And love does not mean the person can respond to me the way I really want them to respond. The question isn't "does he love me?" The question is, "Do I feel happy in this relationship?"  You can be more assertive here. 

BTW: google the phrase "love is not enough" or "love is never enough." There isn't a marriage counselor in the world who believes love is enough to carry a relationship through. There has to be so much more. For example, I can love you and yet, my style of love doesn't feel like love to you. 

[poppyfields]

32 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

That said, if this is a pattern of behavior than it is a rather unhealthy pattern and he may well be tired of your need for reassurance/tuning you would. Kyra, I don’t know what the issue is here exactly but at the end of the day, you are responsible for managing your own emotions. Be careful that you are not expecting him to manage your emotions - he’s not going to want to do

I don't have time for a more detailed response right now but THIS^^!!!  100% spot on.

Cut and paste to fridge and read every single morning until it sinks in.. 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by poppyfields

[glows]

2 hours ago, Kyra said:

Several weeks ago I told him that I was still troubled by old issues and thought we should talk it out so I could feel more confident about the relationship and because having unresolved stuff means it piles on to new issues. He asked to put off talking about it while he was dealing with his daughter's issues. That seemed reasonable and I agreed. Then this week something reminded me of the issue and thinking about it made me upset, so I felt the need to talk about it and it seems like his daughter's ok so I told him what I just said. apparently he didn't understand I was asking to talk and although my text said I had been getting "upset" and feeling "miserable" for a few days he said that I hadn't said I was upset - clearly he didn't take much in at all. He's very busy so we don't see each over often - about once a fortnight now - but I expected him to at least say, ok we should try to meet next week to talk. I'm in covid isolation this week. He said, "I don't know what to say. We can't meet for a bit then we have that function in 2 weeks".

I took this to mean that he was not going to even try to find an hour or two to see me before the function. And he expressed no sympathy about me being upset so he seemed really unconcerned about my feelings. But given his past history of being crap at such things I gave him the benefit of the doubt and tried to explain that he sounded uncaring and hurtful but he took offence at my wording which included, "You're supposed to express concern and want to help." He said "Don't tell me how I'm supposed to feel or act!" Which sounded to me like he's saying, No, I don't feel concern and don't tell me I should. There was a bit of an angry exchange then he pissed off leaving me to cry all day.

I couldn't comprehend that he would give such a uncaring response if he truly cared. He says I should just trust and assume he cares and he shouldn't have to say it. Am I being ridiculous?

What are these "old issues" about? Actually specify the issues, not your feelings. He is not responsible for the way you feel. You are. 

Generally someone who does care about you will be engaged, thoughtful and spend time sharing their thoughts with you. I would be much more specific when communicating anything so approach a conversation in neutral terms and address just the bare facts and make a fair suggestion on how you both can make changes. That's all there needs to be. 

 

[Kyra]

I am amazed at at the wealth of advice I am getting! Thank you all!

[smackie9]

I'm just curious but what are these issues that need attention asap, but he's away working or whatever and can't talk? What is it you need discussed to feel secure in your relationship?