Should I end my relationship because of a psycho ex?

[Wiseman2]

11 minutes ago, ironpony said:

, does an abusive rapist deserve to be paid back? 

He can take her to small claims court. He can charge interest. She can file rape charges, if she still has evidence. Two separate events. However you and she can not make up a bunch of criminal charges from breaking/entering to sexual assaults in an effort to avoid paying a debt. Stay out of her business and it's best not to invent laws.

[IrinaM]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

She willingly took the money. He has the right to collect a debt. She's dramatizing these stories too much.

agree. I've seen this on Judge Judy countless times. Someone is loaned money in the context of a romantic relationship, and then the relationship ends and the borrower won't pay up. (which, in general, people who find themselves short on funds with the need to borrow money often never have the extra money to repay the loan, but whatever.) Then the borrower starts to say it was a gift, I was forced to accept this cash, this person has been stalking me to try to get the money back, so I shouldn't have to pay the loan back.

Honestly IP, I had doubts about her stories in the first place, and now I think I see this situation clearly. There is no excuse for her not to have repaid this debt already. He loaned her money when she needed it, on the expectation to be repaid. When the relationship ended, she should have repaid her, so they could both move on, or at least notified him of a payment system (I'll be sending you $XXX through venmo on the first of the month for the next three months). This should have been voluntary on her part.

[IrinaM]

11 hours ago, ironpony said:

But she keeps emphasing to me that now that she has lost, he is going to come after and her only hope is to buy him off.  But how do I emphasize to her that a partner that goes back on promises to herself and gives into blackmail is not reliable?

Stop using the word "blackmail," and the phrase "buy him off."

Also, she has already gone back on her promise to him to pay back the money she borrowed, so she is unreliable.

[ironpony]

1 hour ago, IrinaM said:

agree. I've seen this on Judge Judy countless times. Someone is loaned money in the context of a romantic relationship, and then the relationship ends and the borrower won't pay up. (which, in general, people who find themselves short on funds with the need to borrow money often never have the extra money to repay the loan, but whatever.) Then the borrower starts to say it was a gift, I was forced to accept this cash, this person has been stalking me to try to get the money back, so I shouldn't have to pay the loan back.

Honestly IP, I had doubts about her stories in the first place, and now I think I see this situation clearly. There is no excuse for her not to have repaid this debt already. He loaned her money when she needed it, on the expectation to be repaid. When the relationship ended, she should have repaid her, so they could both move on, or at least notified him of a payment system (I'll be sending you $XXX through venmo on the first of the month for the next three months). This should have been voluntary on her part.

But what if the guy actually said don't worry about paying back... Does he have the right to go back on his word like that?  Why is he allowed to reneg on that.

Edited February 17, 2022 by ironpony

[poppyfields]

26 minutes ago, ironpony said:

But what if the guy actually said don't worry about paying back... Does he have the right to go back on his word like that?

If he takes her to court, the burden of proof is on HIM to prove it was a loan and not a gift.  Without something in writing proving it was loan, like a promissory note or even just text messages, emails, etc that is difficult if not impossible to prove in a court of law.

His word is NOT good enough, he needs tangible proof  (in writing - text, email) it was actually a loan.

If he said to her "don't worry about paying me back" in a text message and your girlfriend still has the message then he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

On the other hand, if there were text message exchanges between them describing it as a loan, and she told him she would pay him back, then that is proof it was a loan and not a gift and your girlfriend is required to pay.

Also, if she paid him back any money at all, even as little as $1.00 and he has proof of that like a cancelled check or something, that is also proof it was loan and she would be required under the law, to pay him back.

But again the burden of proof is on HIM to prove with tangible evidence in writing that it was a loan and not a gift.

That is why when you loan people money, even your girlfriend or boyfriend, it's important to get it in writing, by either a promissory note or even something as simple as a short written statement signed by both of you, and get it notarized.  

Otherwise, and especially in the context of a romantic relationship, it's considered a gift.

That is the law in the U.S. but I don't imagine it's much different in Canada.

But have her check with a Canadian lawyer even if it's on line.  I tried that awhile back on your behalf and I can't remember how much money they wanted, but it wasn't very much.

Edited February 17, 2022 by poppyfields

[ironpony]

15 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

If he takes her to court, the burden of proof is on HIM to prove it was a loan and not a gift.  Without something in writing proving it was loan, like text messages, emails, etc that is difficult if not impossible to prove.

His word is NOT good enough, he needs tangible proof  (in writing - text, email) it was actually a loan.

If he said to her "don't worry about paying me back" in a text message and your girlfriend still has the message then he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

On the other hand, if there were text message exchanges between them describing it as a loan, and she told him she would pay him back, then that is proof it was a loan and not a gift and your girlfriend is required to pay.

Also, if she paid him back any money at all, even as little as $1.00 and he has proof of that like a cancelled check or something, that is also proof it was loan and she would be required under the law, to pay him back.

But again the burden of proof is on HIM to prove with tangible evidence in writing that it was a loan and not a gift.

That is why when you loan people money, even your girlfriend or boyfriend, it's important to get it in writing, by either a promissory note or even something as simple as a short written statement signed by both of you, and get it notarized.

That is the law in the U.S. but I don't imagine it's much different in Canada.

But have her check with a Canadian lawyer even if it's on line.  I tried that awhile back on your behalf and I can't remember how much money they wanted, but it wasn't very much.

But he did take her to court already.  I didn't go into it since I was told I can't talk about it on here since this is not a legal advice forum.

The judge said that even though he can't prove it she will still have to pay some of it back though.  And there was no writing of it.  I'm just trying to persuade her to not pay back more than what she actually owes which he is demanding.

Edited February 17, 2022 by ironpony

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, ironpony said:

But he did take her to court already. The judge said that she will still have to pay some of it back though.  

Ok. Then stay out of it if he won a judgement against her. Perhaps all her hyperbole stories are to avoid the truth. That he won a judgement (and can charge interest) and it will effect her credit.

The number one thing you can do as her BF? Stop giving her h bad legal advice.

However she should check her credit score. There is also a court record on file that she was sued. And the courts can see when she filed her restraining order for false reasons (he let himself in with a key she gave him)

Edited February 17, 2022 by Wiseman2

[poppyfields]

11 minutes ago, ironpony said:

But he did take her to court already.  I didn't go into it since I was told I can't talk about it on here since this is not a legal advice forum.

The judge said that even though he can't prove it she will still have to pay some of it back though.  And there was no writing of it.  I'm just trying to persuade her to not pay back more than what she actually owes which he is demanding.

Pay some of it back?  Did he say how much?   I mean if it was deemed a loan, why only some? 

And without proof?

That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.

In any event, I am out of this discussion but good luck.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

 

59 minutes ago, ironpony said:

But what if the guy actually said don't worry about paying back... Does he have the right to go back on his word like that?  Why is he allowed to reneg on that.

Why did you ask this^ question if they had already been to court and the judge ordered her to pay it back?  I mean it's a moot question, since there is a judgment against her.

Ironpony, I really want to help you but something is not jiving about all this, sorry.

[IrinaM]

i think one thing we all agree on is that she needs to, at minimum, satisfy the judgement against her. Has she done that? Has she paid him back the amount awarded to her ex in his lawsuit?

[poppyfields]

3 hours ago, ironpony said:

He's asking for more money than he lent she says and also, does an abusive rapist deserve to be paid back?  And he forced her to take the money because he wouldn't take no for an answer.  Isn't it justifiable for her not to pay it back as a consequence for the rape?

Again, these are moot questions as the court has already found in HIS favor and ordered her to pay at least some of it back.  She has a judgment against her, which is quite serious so all these questions you're asking are irrelevant at this point.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by poppyfields

[SumGuy]

50 minutes ago, ironpony said:

But he did take her to court already.  I didn't go into it since I was told I can't talk about it on here since this is not a legal advice forum.

The judge said that even though he can't prove it she will still have to pay some of it back though.  And there was no writing of it.  I'm just trying to persuade her to not pay back more than what she actually owes which he is demanding.

Pay back what the court said to pay back.  I'm certain the judgment didn't say "some" but gave a specific amount.   I'd say make sure it is a check or something that has a clear record that you paid and not cash.   

The court already determined what he was owed.  Someone demanding you pay them money you do not legally owe them, especially if they get threatening, that's extortion.    

[Alpacalia]

I thought her ex has a history of breaking into her apartment?

I mean, what was his justification for breaking into her apartment?

You mentioned that she even changed the locks, but he still broke in.

Having a key does not grant you the right to enter someone's home (unless he's on the lease).

The possession of a key does not imply permission to enter.

You also have documents from him that clearly show, and I mean most of the emails and texts you claim are harassing in nature.

She should simply pay him the money if the courts ordered it and move on.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Alpaca

[ironpony]

2 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Pay some of it back?  Did he say how much?   I mean if it was deemed a loan, why only some? 

And without proof?

That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.

In any event, I am out of this discussion but good luck.

 

 

The case is not finished yet and they need to have more hearings.  But she wants to pay him without going to trial but I don't think she should because he is demanding more than she actually owes him.

She says she is too stressed out to go to trial for a final judgment and wants to avoid it.  But is she gives into and gives him what he wants without a trial, this enables him and empowers h because he will then think what more can I get out of her, if this works.

Edited February 17, 2022 by ironpony

[IrinaM]

Quote

The case is not finished yet and they need to have more hearings. 

which case? i'm confused. if the judge already said she had to pay back "some" of the money he claims he is owed, then that case is finished. this is a small claims dispute, very typical he said she said, and the judge has spoken. there's nothing else to say.

Quote

But she wants to pay him without going to trial but I don't think she should because he is demanding more than she actually owes him.

again i'm confused. she has already been to trial. and she has not paid her ex back one penny of the money he loaned her. instead she wants to debate the amount and accuse him of violence.

You don't know how much she "actually owes" because you were not there when she borrowed the money.

[basil67]

18 minutes ago, ironpony said:

The case is not finished yet and they need to have more hearings.  But she wants to pay him without going to trial but I don't think she should because he is demanding more than she actually owes him.

She says she is too stressed out to go to trial for a final judgment and wants to avoid it.  But is she gives into and gives him what he wants without a trial, this enables him and empowers h because he will then think what more can I get out of her, if this works.

She doesn't want to continue in court, so settling out of court for an amount which they are both satisfied with is perfectly reasonable.   People do this all the time to avoid protracted court battles.  Kindly, unless you are her attorney, what you think is irrelevant.  This is her money, her ex, her drama and her court case and she should do what feels right for her.

 

[ironpony]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

She doesn't want to continue in court, so settling out of court for an amount which they are both satisfied with is perfectly reasonable.   People do this all the time to avoid protracted court battles.  Kindly, unless you are her attorney, what you think is irrelevant.  This is her money, her ex, her drama and her court case and she should do what feels right for her.

 

Oh ok but even if she does this it creates distrust in our relationship though, do how do we address the distrust issue, should she choose to do this?

Why is the right thing for her is to create distrust in our relationship?

Edited February 18, 2022 by ironpony

[basil67]

She's not creating distrust - you're reacting with distrust.   I really can't see what the problem is with an out of court settlement if this is what makes her comfortable.  Yes, it might cost her more financially, but the offset is that this matter will then be over and done with and she can move on.

All you can do is decide if she's the right woman for you. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by basil67

[ironpony]

So what I mean is, I can understand if the court rules that she has to pay, because that's the court twisting her arm then.

But before in this thread I mentioned how she feels pressured to pay him off before he took her court because then she feels he will leave her alone, and now she is willing to pay more rather than see what the court says.

This causes me to think she is unreliable in the sense that she is willing to pay off a person who pressures her.  She just comes off as easily suspectible to pressure, and therefore unreliable in a relationship.

Suppose for example, we got married in five years, hypothetically of course.  Then we are both bringing in money into the marriage.  But some jerk comes along and tries to pressure her into giving him a large chunk of our money and then she caves and does it but she is easily pressured.  How do you rely on a partner who is like that.  That is my concern that creates distrust and a sense of unreliability.

And another thing is, if she gives this guy the money outside of court and more than she is required to, this is going to cause her stalker ex, to feel empowered and feels like he still has control over her. This will make him come after her more.  She won't be able to move on from this if she does this, because this will more likely make him feel empowered because it's giving him more ammunition to feel that way.

[Alvi]

IP, why do you have a problem with your girlfriend paying money back to this guy? Why do you feel this is a dealbreaker? People do change their minds, it happens all the time. Circumstances and attitudes change. She is probably tired of never ending battle,  how much longer can you expect her to take it till she totally breaks down? If she wants to end it, let her. Be there for her. Show her your support. Or walk away, if you don't want to deal with this mess anymore. You are not married to her, so if you want to walk, then walk.

 If she was actually ordered by a court to pay him back, then she is obligated to pay him back. What you think about this is not relevant. She is not asking for your money to pay him. While you may not agree or disapprove, it is her money and her decision.

Think about it this way, if she pays him, he is not going to have anything to hold over her head any longer. The dark cloud that she have been living under is going to be gone. Hopefully, once she pays, she is not going to see or hear from him again (let's hope so at least).

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ironpony said:

Suppose for example, we got married in five years, hypothetically of course.  Then we are both bringing in money into the marriage.  But some jerk comes along and tries to pressure her into giving him a large chunk of our money and then she caves and does it but she is easily pressured.  How do you rely on a partner who is like that.  That is my concern that creates distrust and a sense of unreliability.

And another thing is, if she gives this guy the money outside of court and more than she is required to, this is going to cause her stalker ex, to feel empowered and feels like he still has control over her. This will make him come after her more.  She won't be able to move on from this if she does this, because this will more likely make him feel empowered because it's giving him more ammunition to feel that way.

So this is all about you worrying about things which probably aren't going to happen?   It's one thing being concerned about someone who cheats because there are always opportunities for this to happen again.  But when this current thing is paid off, she'll never hear from him again.   And she's not going to have some jerk trying to pressure her for money.  

This is a post breakup settlement.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

 

[poppyfields]

I think we must be missing some context because none of this sounds real. 

No judge is going to award someone a money judgment against another person (in this case your girlfriend) without proof, without evidence that (1) he gave her money and (2) it was a loan and not a gift. 

Hypothetically, that would mean anyone can walk into a court of law, make up a fake story about loaning someone money and the judge believes them with NO proof and orders the other person (the defendant) to pay back the money when the person who filed the claim (the plaintiff) never loaned them money in the first place and the entire story is made up! 

The court system would be in complete disarray if a judge were allowed to do that. It's insane.  Not to mention completely unethical.

It's just not gonna happen, in any court of law anywhere. 

You need proof!  Evidence.   No judge is just gonna take someone's word for it, that crazy. 

I don't know what game your girlfriend is playing but I think there is a very strong possibility you are being bamboozled. 

Why?  I don't know, a bid for sympathy perhaps, or she's histrionic and enjoys high drama for drama's sake. 

But her story is not jiving, not by a long shot..

Edited February 18, 2022 by poppyfields

[ironpony]

1 hour ago, poppyfields said:

I think we must be missing some context because none of this sounds real. 

No judge is going to award someone a money judgment against another person (in this case your girlfriend) without proof, without evidence that (1) he gave her money and (2) it was a loan and not a gift. 

Hypothetically, that would mean anyone can walk into a court of law, make up a fake story about loaning someone money and the judge believes them with NO proof and orders the other person (the defendant) to pay back the money when the person who filed the claim (the plaintiff) never loaned them money in the first place and the entire story is made up! 

The court system would be in complete disarray if a judge were allowed to do that. It's insane.  Not to mention completely unethical.

It's just not gonna happen, in any court of law anywhere. 

You need proof!  Evidence.   No judge is just gonna take someone's word for it, that crazy. 

I don't know what game your girlfriend is playing but I think there is a very strong possibility you are being bamboozled. 

Why?  I don't know, a bid for sympathy perhaps, or she's histrionic and enjoys high drama for drama's sake. 

But her story is not jiving, not by a long shot..

Well this is what I thought too, but the judge told her that she is going to have to award her at least some of it because the trial will most likely come out that way if she doesn't settle.  However, my gf said she had to tell the truth though, and in a civil case, you are not allowed to take the fifth and therefore you have to answer all the questions the judge asked, and therefore she could not remain silent about any of it legally.  She cannot take the fifth, and has to answer any questions the judge asks her about it.

Edited February 18, 2022 by ironpony

[ironpony]

3 hours ago, Alvi said:

IP, why do you have a problem with your girlfriend paying money back to this guy? Why do you feel this is a dealbreaker? People do change their minds, it happens all the time. Circumstances and attitudes change. She is probably tired of never ending battle,  how much longer can you expect her to take it till she totally breaks down? If she wants to end it, let her. Be there for her. Show her your support. Or walk away, if you don't want to deal with this mess anymore. You are not married to her, so if you want to walk, then walk.

 If she was actually ordered by a court to pay him back, then she is obligated to pay him back. What you think about this is not relevant. She is not asking for your money to pay him. While you may not agree or disapprove, it is her money and her decision.

Think about it this way, if she pays him, he is not going to have anything to hold over her head any longer. The dark cloud that she have been living under is going to be gone. Hopefully, once she pays, she is not going to see or hear from him again (let's hope so at least).

But if she pays him this will just make him feel more empowered over her and he will likely come after him more then.  She is giving him bait to feel more empowered over her by doing this.  This is what I don't understand when talking it over with other people is no one seems to understand the concept that if you give a mouse a cookie, he is just going to want a glass of milk, if that makes sense.

If she has to pay him cause the court said so, fine, but to pay him more than what she owes and before going to trial, it just makes him feel more powered and wanting that glass of milk later even more so.

And another thing that bothers me is the idea of people changing their minds all the time. How is a partner supposed to be reliable in a relationship if she cannot stick to her guns when she makes a decision to herself not to do something.  It wreaks of unreliability if people just change their minds without being able to commit to a decision.

Edited February 18, 2022 by ironpony

[ExpatInItaly]

Or maybe your girlfriend hans't been honest with you about this whole story and exaggerates the details in her favour, IP.