Revisiting compersion

[Classicfiction]

Ok so I've always been one to value loyalty... until recently, Ive been very rigid in my opinion of longterm relationships.  That there should be absolutely no straying, no flirtations outside the relationship etc...

 My solution was to date older men, but I honestly dont know that that would necessarily solve the problem of preventing jealousy. So I'm starting to realize that a no cheating policy in relationships does seem counterintuitive in a lot of ways.

I mean.. I believe men are not monogamous by nature.  Instinctually men want to hunt and have variety.  Its just kinda obvious that guys are like this.  Look at all of the online forums with all the pain over cheating.

So what if women could accept that men are naturally and instinctually driven to hunt and allow for a man to cheat.... and at the same time seek affection elsewhere when the man goes distant?

What if people could do this and not feel shame over it?

Basically, Im looking at all my failed relationships where the guy cheated and I was strictly not tolerant of it at all..

If people became more open in such a sense would it help with the pain of heartbreak?  

Also, do you think that allowing for openess in a relationship would affect the longevity of the relationship?

Guys, if you were allowed to be with other women would you stay loyal to the woman who accepted it?  And would you be ok with her having other partners as well?

Edited December 20, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
belief stated as fact

[Uruktopi]

2 minutes ago, Classicfiction said:

Guys, if you were allowed to be with other women would you stay loyal to the woman who accepted it?

 And would you be ok with her having other partners as well?

No. As I would´t stay in such relationship, loyalty would become a quite abstract quality for an inexistent partnership

No. Same reason.

[Alpacalia]

In 5,000 species of mammals (including humans), 3 to 5 percent form lifelong, monogamous bonds.

https://www.livescience.com/32146-are-humans-meant-to-be-monogamous.html

Eek.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Alpaca

[Uruktopi]

14 minutes ago, Alpaca said:

In 5,000 species of mammals (including humans), 3 to 5 percent form lifelong, monogamous bonds.

A possible inference, that given, is: as with other things, humans have preferences and choices. My choosen frame is monogamy.

Lifelong....oh well...desirable but not granted, monogamus or not. Another unrelated issue. 

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, Classicfiction said:

 My solution was to date older men, but I honestly dont know that that would necessarily solve the problem of preventing jealousy. So I'm starting to realize that a no cheating policy in relationships does seem counterintuitive in a lot of ways.

1 hour ago, Classicfiction said:

Basically, Im looking at all my failed relationships where the guy cheated and I was strictly not tolerant of it at all..

Do you want to prevent yourself from becoming jealous?

That's partly because, if I understand you correctly, you have experienced being cheated on in the past.

Could it be that finding a partnership where you feel emotionally and physically safe is preferable to an open relationship? 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Alpaca

[Uruktopi]

52 minutes ago, Alpaca said:

In 5,000 species of mammals (including humans), 3 to 5 percent form lifelong, monogamous bonds.

Another thought of mine with almost the same basis: It seems that the "natural monogamy" arguments have as much nonsense as the theorethical ones supporting "evolved" non monogamy.

[Uruktopi]

3 minutes ago, Alpaca said:

Could it be that finding a partnership where you feel emotionally and physically safe is preferable to an open relationship? 

Applauses.

[Alpacalia]

28 minutes ago, Uruktopi said:

Another thought of mine with almost the same basis: It seems that the "natural monogamy" arguments have as much nonsense as the theorethical ones supporting "evolved" non monogamy.

Yes.

For the most part, humans are still drawn to monogamy.

Almost every animal lives in the moment. We tend to be the opposite.

And, there's our capacity for reason.

We need something to differentiate us from animals, after all.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Alpaca

[elaine567]

Monogamy has been beneficial to the human species.
 

Quote

"“It [pair-bonding] allows for fathers to know their offspring (and vice versa). This creates conditions for the evolution of parental care, which was necessary to offset the disproportionally high costs of raising human children (because of their large brain and delayed maturity),” explained Gavrilets. “Recognition of kinship networks simplified the evolution of within-group cooperative behaviour, including alloparental care.”

The origin of monogamy | Science Illustrated   - can't post the link for some reason...

 

[Versacehottie]

idk, it seems like you are pondering all this as a way to swing wildly from extremes of possible solutions in order to date without the risk of being hurt.  Also, you are ignoring your own personal natural instincts, ie that it doesn't sound like it particularly suits you to be in an open relationship since cheating is at the forefront of your mind upon going into a relationship or even SEARCHING for a partner.

You cannot mitigate every single risk that there is in dating or being in a relationship.  It's a better use of your time to find a person that to the best of your knowledges shares the values you have and your natural inclination about being with one person only and do your best to make that a healthy, happy relationship. As was said, above, find a partner that makes you feel emotionally and physically safe vs coming up with sort of a new set of convoluted standards for a relationship that don't truly match your values.

[Ami1uwant]

2 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

Ok so I've always been one to value loyalty... until recently, Ive been very rigid in my opinion of longterm relationships.  That there should be absolutely no straying, no flirtations outside the relationship etc...

 My solution was to date older men, but I honestly dont know that that would necessarily solve the problem of preventing jealousy. So I'm starting to realize that a no cheating policy in relationships does seem counterintuitive in a lot of ways.

I mean.. men are not monogamous by nature.  Instinctually men want to hunt and have variety.  Its just kinda obvious that guys are like this.  Look at all of the online forums with all the pain over cheating.

So what if women could accept that men are naturally and instinctually driven to hunt and allow for a man to cheat.... and at the same time seek affection elsewhere when the man goes distant?

What if people could do this and not feel shame over it?

Basically, Im looking at all my failed relationships where the guy cheated and I was strictly not tolerant of it at all..

If people became more open in such a sense would it help with the pain of heartbreak?  

Also, do you think that allowing for openess in a relationship would affect the longevity of the relationship?

Guys, if you were allowed to be with other women would you stay loyal to the woman who accepted it?  And would you be ok with her having other partners as well?

 

flirting is not cheating.

cheating comes out from other problems in a relationship that have been ignored.

 

you seem to have a big jealousy issue.  

[Uruktopi]

51 minutes ago, Alpaca said:

Almost every animal lives in the moment. We tend to be the opposite.

Yes and moreover: To anticipate, to went out of the "acceptance" of "living the pressent" and "letting it go", to make things happen are part of what MADE us to become humans.

Look at history. Creative periods where mostly rebellious ones, as we humans are: Sons of  Prometheus.

I do not object non monogamy for the ones that choose it. But it would give nothing to me that I find even near to desirable.

[Uruktopi]

11 minutes ago, Ami1uwant said:

flirting is not cheating.

In my frame, out of flirting with my partner when and while I have one, it is enough cheating.

[Girl Fade Away]

22 minutes ago, Uruktopi said:

In my frame, out of flirting with my partner when and while I have one, it is enough cheating.

What constitutes flirting in your opinion?  How are you defining it? 

[central]

3 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

If people became more open in such a sense would it help with the pain of heartbreak?  

Also, do you think that allowing for openess in a relationship would affect the longevity of the relationship?

Guys, if you were allowed to be with other women would you stay loyal to the woman who accepted it?  And would you be ok with her having other partners as well?

People are hugely influenced in their attitudes by the culture they live in.  Most western culture is based on monogamy, so that's what most people believe in (even as many - perhaps even most - cheat at some point in some relationship).

I don't think humans as a species are monogamous.  Despite cultural conditioning, many (perhaps even most) would greatly prefer pair bonding (at least serial monogamy).  There are biological reasons for this, at least while a couple is having and raising children.  This isn't as critical in recent times due to a social framework to protect children.

Anyway, that's the background I'm coming from.  I'm not naturally monogamous, but can live in a monogamous relationship quite happily IF it is going well.  My first marriage did not go well, but I didn't cheat - I divorced.  This relationship was mutually non-monogamous from the start; we both dated and had sex with others.  21 years later, it's still much the same, but getting older does put a damper on the urge for extramarital relationships.

We've experienced compersion, and generally haven't been jealous.  Sure, jealousy has happened at times, but we've learned to deal with it and not let it control us, because we are totally solid and still very much in love.  Jealousy is mainly based in fear of losing something very key to happiness, perhaps even survival, or perhaps has to do with feeling insecurity that someone else may elicit the same or more intense feelings and experiences than you do.  Losing each other was never in doubt, and having had other partners we know that some can be better in some specific way, but not better overall.  Besides, we have a long, great and happy history together that we value highly.

So, to answer the questions above, yes, I think being more open could help (sometimes!) with breakup and heartbreak, because you may already have other great partners who can help you through it.  Even in poly relationships, a breakup can be heartbreaking, so being open isn't a solution to heartbreak.

Being open is unlikely to affect the longevity of a relationship, unless someone become jealous of another partner.  Relationships would still form and end for ALL the same reasons they do for monogamous people, and knowing that your partner has other partners openly, defuses the whole issue of cheating.  Perhaps knowing that your partner has others prevents taking them for granted, so the quality of the relationship could actually improve due to the perceived competition.  Stability could actually increase, but that does not necessarily affect relationship longevity.

As to the final question, I definitely answer yes.  We've lived this for over 21 years.  She has had several other partners as well.  We've been in love and loyal to each other even through long chronic illnesses, acute health problems, financial setbacks, and more.  IMO, we have one of the best relationships of anyone we know, and that's because we each want the other to be happy and fulfilled, and that includes sexually, even when that means having sex with or loving others, just for a time or potentially even a lifetime.

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, Uruktopi said:

Yes and moreover: To anticipate, to went out of the "acceptance" of "living the pressent" and "letting it go", to make things happen are part of what MADE us to become humans.

Look at history. Creative periods where mostly rebellious ones, as we humans are: Sons of  Prometheus.

I do not object non monogamy for the ones that choose it. But it would give nothing to me that I find even near to desirable.

Yes, Uruktopi.

Humans tend to live in the past and in the future.

We are more capable that that of our ancestors for things like reasoning, planning, etc.

There's so many theories floating around monogamy.

Consider yourself a very special monkey indeed.

 

[Uruktopi]

34 minutes ago, Alpaca said:

Consider yourself a very special monkey indeed.

[Uruktopi]

2 hours ago, Girl Fade Away said:

What constitutes flirting in your opinion?  How are you defining it? 

Like with almost all concepts, there is not an exhaustive definition and no one free of potential counterfactuals.

Anyhow, IMO and only as a working approximation:

- The attitudes and behaviours that are functional (not necessarily intentional) to give and / or receive attention from one or more people from the opposite / preferred  sex / gender when it´s about the differences that make such sex / gender attractive as such.

- It may be active or implicit (as when accepting it from others) to the social game / mechanism: words, gestures, body language and sometimes hidden as teasing / playful humor.  But the kind of one that is also shared with seduction and courting. Even if not the contingent case.

- Compliments may not be flirting when (and ony  if) are of the kind I would give to my sisters and / or to a person that, given the social sctript, would not read them as else NOR could be missconstructed by third ones. Should not be ambiguous nor carry double sense meanings or undertones.

- If what somone does gives (aware or not) a message of availability even if "whithout the intention of going further". Or if promotes arousal, attraction, sexual focus, even if temporal or volatile.

- The actions, gestures, words, attitudes that are meant to get or give a feeling of value on the attributes that in each social group / culture are found a source of sexual attraction. 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Uruktopi

[smackie9]

You don't trust men, but those men are what you are attracted to because they are out going, flirty and know how to entertain a woman.

The ones that are the devoted type in your eyes would be the ones that are awkward, not so flirty, and you would fine utterly boring/predictable.

[Uruktopi]

2 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

You don't trust men, but those men are what you are attracted to because they are out going, flirty and know how to entertain a woman.

The ones that are the devoted type in your eyes would be the ones that are awkward, not so flirty, and you would fine utterly boring/predictable.

Sadly, true

[Classicfiction]

Are humans naturally monogamous though?

What is Song of Songs about you know what I mean.  Idk... Ive been thinking along the lines of what would happen if men were allowed to flex the hunting muscle and go out and conquer then come back home.  What if women could be with other women without a sense of shame and a fling every now and then when the hubby has gone cold.  Because all hubbies do and its just silly to state otherwise.

Could it actually protect the children?

Do you see what Im saying?  If a man is in a marriage and he is bored with his wife but at the same time being held to a no cheating or else standard, that is some repressed energy that can be dangerous.  

That's a lot of big words @Uruktopi, but how do you FEEL as a man?  Maybe Im moving from distrust to empathy.

[lana-banana]

This sounds like a lot of words in an attempt to justify unfaithfulness. 

Plenty of people are happy being monogamous. You do not need to settle for someone who won't be.

[Woggle]

I am a man who has not cheated once and it is not a lack of options. That being said if two people are honest with each other and want an open relationship who am I to judge.

 

[basil67]

50 minutes ago, Classicfiction said:

Are humans naturally monogamous though?

What is Song of Songs about you know what I mean.  Idk... Ive been thinking along the lines of what would happen if men were allowed to flex the hunting muscle and go out and conquer then come back home.  What if women could be with other women without a sense of shame and a fling every now and then when the hubby has gone cold.  Because all hubbies do and its just silly to state otherwise.

Could it actually protect the children?

Do you see what Im saying?  If a man is in a marriage and he is bored with his wife but at the same time being held to a no cheating or else standard, that is some repressed energy that can be dangerous.  

I believe monogamy is a choice.  And I would say that honoring that choice comes easier to some than others.

Anyway, why are you pitching this as "men cheat"?   There are plenty of women who cheat.   And where is your evidence that "all hubbies go cold"?   Have a read here and you'll find plenty of men who are unhappy with the lack of affection from their wives. 

Honestly, this sounds like a whole lot of assumption which has been stitched together to suit your narrative.  

[chillii]

1 hour ago, Classicfiction said:

Are humans naturally monogamous though?

What is Song of Songs about you know what I mean.  Idk... Ive been thinking along the lines of what would happen if men were allowed to flex the hunting muscle and go out and conquer then come back home.  What if women could be with other women without a sense of shame and a fling every now and then when the hubby has gone cold.  Because all hubbies do and its just silly to state otherwise.

Could it actually protect the children?

Do you see what Im saying?  If a man is in a marriage and he is bored with his wife but at the same time being held to a no cheating or else standard, that is some repressed energy that can be dangerous.  

That's a lot of big words @Uruktopi, but how do you FEEL as a man?  Maybe Im moving from distrust to empathy.

What if's what if's

But do you really wanna live like that , me thinks that's not really you at all and you'd end up one very unhappy puppy.

Not everyone screws around , meet the "right person", and you don't wanna be with anyone else.