External perspective needed: what do you think of this situation?

[Amanda141]

I (f,24) have been on two dates with a man (26 y/o) met on a dating app. On my profile, I put "looking for a relationship". At the very beginning of our conversation on the app, after I introduced myself, he confessed "I didn't realize you were looking for a proper love relationship. I don't want to lead you on so to be straight I'm not looking for that at the moment. I'd prefer to go on a date and see how we like each other, so I guess friends+ from time to time. Not much for texting but honestly I'm not a one-night stand kind of person either". 

So, a friend with benefits, I suppose. 

Normally, I would have deleted the match. However, I had a gut feeling that told me to be more open and see what happens. Plus, I'm not looking for my husband right now: what I don't like are meaningless hook-ups but, even if I wouldn't mind a serious relationship, I am flexible as I don't even know how long I will live in the city I'm currently living in right now. So, why not I thought...

On Saturday 11th December we had our first date at a restaurant. Frankly, I didn't even have many expectations, but we had an instant connection. BOOM, we clicked on some many levels! I am myself 100% and I find him attractive, intelligent and a gentleman. To be fair, he ticks all the boxes.

The date started at 8:00pm and finished almost at 2:00 am. We touched on different topics and he also explained to me why he is not ready for a relationship at the moment. Before him telling me the reason, I thought "Well, since he had just moved to town, probably he would like to just have some fun around, considering we live in a very young-friendly capital full of parties..." - Man, was I wrong.

Long story short, he was in a 5-year relationship with a girl that scammed him. She borrowed a considerable amount of money (thousands of euros) from him and never returned it, claiming she needed it to pay her student loan but, since her mother died, she didn't have access to her bank account. At first, he was hesitant, because it was A LOT of money, but she manipulated him making him feel the bad guy and then he lent her the money...After all, they had already been together for 3 years at that point and he trusted and loved her a lot. But whenever he was bringing up the matter, asking when she will repay him, she would change the topic. This went on for two years, until he got tired, called everything off, and called lawyers to have everything sorted. He even found out that yes, his mother died, but there was no locked bank account! This affected him significantly. He completely lost trust towards other people but first and foremost towards himself ("how could I let myself be deceived in this way? I felt naive and stupid" that's what he told me). He trusted his ex, they had been together for a long time and were already thinking about settling down, and she fooled him with a cold-heart. 

As this wasn't enough, in the same period (a year ago), he lost his grandfather for COVID and also got seriously injured while running and had to undergo major surgery and couldn't walk properly for a few months. 

He told me the end of 2020 and the beginning of 2021 were the toughest moments of his life. All of this happened of course during the lockdown, so he didn't even have any distractions. To be brutally honest, he told me he felt depressed and used to cry a lot.

On our first date he shared "I am much better than before, things improved significantly. I moved to a new city, I have a new job and I can walk and run again. However, I recognise that to be in a healthy relationship with someone, you first need to be at peace with yourself. I am on the right path but I still need time, that's why I am not ready for a relationship just yet and I want to take things slow. It also depends on the other person but this is the situation right now".

I wasn't really expecting to open up like that on our very first date, but I really appreciated it and I totally understand his point of view. Fair enough.

Time flew by... at the end of the date, he kissed me and texted me "just made it home, thank you for a great evening! I really had a good time, I hope you as well. Let's try to see each other again soon" - to which I reciprocated. He texted me again on Monday, asking me when I would go home to my family for Christmas and if we could see each other before then. Since I am going home tomorrow, I saw him on Friday night 17th December. We went out for dinner again and then to a cocktail bar, and believe me when I tell you that I completely find myself at ease with him. There is not one single moment in which I have to think about the next topic or what to say next because the conversation just flows by so naturally!! We laugh a lot and share so many things! I literally looked at the time, it was 8 pm, and then the next time I look at the watch it was already almost 2 am!!!! I have been on many dates this year but this feeling happened very rarely. Definitely in the top 3 of best dates of my life. Towards the end of the date, he said "What would you like to do now? Maybe we could go to mine or yours, but if you don't feel like it, we can do it another time". Honestly, I was feeling so good that I just let myself go and went to his place. We had sex for a while and then cuddled and slept together. The chemistry and complicity, even under the sheets, is to the roof. We talked about our jobs, our families, our past and future dreams. 

He also told me he doesn't like to sleep with different women at the same time because it would make him feel dishonest and "dirty". Same for me. 

The following morning (yesterday) we had breakfast together and I left around lunchtime. Basically, we stayed together for more than 16 hours  as I was about to leave, he said "I really had a good night with you. When are you going to Italy again?" to which I replied "On Monday" and he said "oh, nice, are you doing anything tomorrow (sunday, today)? I have a couple of things to do but maybe we could meet to say bye, otherwise see you in January" to which I said "Apart from going to the gym, I am free, so yes, let's keep in touch!". We kissed again and I went home.

Since he was always the one to start the conversation, I decided to text him first this morning. This was the short conversation:

ME: "Bonjour bonjour! Hope you're having a nice weekend! Would you have time for a coffee or drink later today?  "

HIM: "Hey hey! Good weekend so far, hope you too! I'm a bit down today and I have a few things to do, so I'll stay chill  "

ME: "No worries, hope you're okay!   See you in January then, I am coming back on the 4th, I had to cancel my Amsterdam trip for the lockdown"

and that's it, he didn't reply (he rarely logs into whatsapp). I don't think it's a major red flag and I am probably over-thinking and only need some reassurance, but do you think I was too pushy? I wouldn't have even asked him to meet today as we already spent much time together this weekend, it was just a follow-up out of curiosity and I completely understand that when you are blue you want some time for yourself. It happens to me as well sometimes, if I am having a bad day I don't want to see anyone, not even my best friends let alone someone I've only seen twice.

We don't usually text much, so I was thinking to wish him Merry Christmas on Saturday and maybe a couple of other messages here and there and seeing what happens in January. I know he said he's still not ready for a proper relationship so I'll just have to be patient, but I really see potential. What do you think of the whole situation and how should I behave?

Thanks  

Amanda x

 

[ccas93]

34 minutes ago, Amanda141 said:

I know he said he's still not ready for a proper relationship so I'll just have to be patient, but I really see potential.

 

could be backing off a bit because he sees this heading into proper relationship territory. Could have been having a bad day. Who knows. I'd say enjoy the holidays, don't overthink or get overly invested in a man who told you straight away he doesn't want a relationship, and time will tell. 

[Wiseman2]

37 minutes ago, Amanda141 said:

I don't want to lead you on so to be straight I'm not looking for that at the moment. I'd prefer to go on a date and see how we like each other, so I guess friends+ from time to time.

It's best to believe him that he doesn't want a relationship and just FWB. His speech about his ex however is a huge red flag.

[Girl Fade Away]

Amanda, gotta say I thoroughly enjoyed reading your story, and I'm sorry you're feeling a bit out of sorts about it.

But honestly, my advice is focus on the connection you have established and stop over-thinking and over-analyzing it.  He sounds like a good guy!  Very open and forthcoming.

Try and relax about it.  Text once on Christmas to wish him a merry if you want, let him know you're thinking of him but that is it. 

This man has been through A LOT, I would feel extremely flattered he trusted you enough to open up.

I realize you had sex, but be his "friend" for now, that's what he needs.  Do NOT push for more. 

Try and stay secure, centered and grounded and see where this leads.  As you said, you are not seeking a husband right now so why not simply relax and enjoy your connection?

After the holidays and new year, see what happens and pick up where you left off if that is what you both want.

Unfortunately in the meantime, you will have to live with a bit of uncertainty.  Learn to embrace that uncertainty versus seeking reassurance in an attempt to alleviate it.  Doing so will be the kiss of death at this point. 

Good luck and happy holidays! 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Girl Fade Away

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, Amanda141 said:

"I didn't realize you were looking for a proper love relationship. I don't want to lead you on so to be straight I'm not looking for that at the moment. I'd prefer to go on a date and see how we like each other, so I guess friends+ from time to time. Not much for texting but honestly I'm not a one-night stand kind of person either". 

Well this guy was completely honest with you before the 1st date.  You knew you were looking for a "proper relationship" and this guy was honest that he's not on that page.  You had sex with him anyway which made you further attach to him.  That is not his fault and I hope you don't end up hurt because this doesn't evolve into a relationship.  He was in a 5 year relationship with someone he must have loved deeply who hurt him.  He's still not over that and isn't ready to be tied down to one person yet without exploring all of his options.  He probably isn't having any problem getting takers because he knows how to date properly, is honest and fun.  Just remember that he warned you what he's not ready for so if things go south don't blame him.  Always stick to what you want.

[glows]

Too much info on the first date. This is reinforcement he’s not in the mindframe for anything serious. I’d consider this an fwb with stress on friendly/cordial. You owe each other nothing other than a good time now and then, some empathetic understanding for his struggles and great conversations are always appreciated. I would not see this man remotely having any potential for a relationship. Inviting you back and having sex is living in the moment and he enjoys your company.

Let him do his thing and “chill”. In the meantime, you’ve got things to do and people to see. 

If he contacts you in January see how it goes as friends. I don’t know how you’d see this as potential. Find someone who has the capacity to date and be present 100%, treat you like a lady and whom you have no doubts about.

[smackie9]

He's pulled away because you are going on your trip, and in his mind who knows who you will meet there and have fun with. He's feeling a bit insecure. The dates had him on such a high, now he's crashing emotionally. He still struggles. You can send him some photos on your trip, try for some light chats in the evenings when you are done for the day, maybe even a phone call, etc. If he doesn't really respond, that's ok. I'm sure he will appreciate some contact from you anyways. No need to fall off the face of the earth. Baby steps.

[Girl Fade Away]

Amanda, I think some doubts are to be expected this early in, some uncertainty.  With anyone you begin dating and feel a connection with.  The nature of the beast. 

But as I and others have said, for now relax and be a friend.  Again, he has been through a lot and admitted he is not ready for anything more.  

Time will tell if that changes.  It's hard to say because it's been said most men know very quickly which category to place a woman - serious or casual.   But with everything he's been through, this time it may be different and he truly is NOT ready for anything more.

Tread carefully here but keep an open mind, one never knows what will happen tomorrow.

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Girl Fade Away

[Amanda141]

Thanks to everyone for the advice!

I notice that one mistake I keep doing is seeking reassurance and as @Girl Fade Away said, it could be the kiss of death  I do believe he likes me and there is chemistry, however he still needs time and I don't want to be pushy. This was actually the first time I texted him first so that's okay I guess. He's not going back to his town until Thursday (he'll stay there for about a week) and I saw he has just snoozed his dating profile, so I think it's a good sign... he's not looking around! This, the fact that we had two long amazing dates and that he doesn't multi-date makes me hope there is room for improvement even if I have to be extremely careful not to over-romanticise things and keep in mind that, even if a year has passed since his darkest hour, he has been going through a lot. He told me that the betrayal from his ex girlfriend was worse than cheating and affect him A LOT. Right now I would be okay with a FWB situation, but only time will tell... 

I just need to give him space and time. I won't text him until Christmas Day... Even if it's hard for me I will have to draw my attention to something else until I come back here in two weeks.

luckily I am going home for Christmas and I will spend time with family and old friends, so that's good. 

As you say at the beginning there is always uncertainty and doubt, I just have to learn to live with it (which is super hard for me) but it's part of growing up.

 

 

[introverted1]

He told you right off the bat that he was only interested in "friends +".  Just because he doesn't want a proper relationship doesn't mean he can't won't enjoy sex with a fun wrapper (aka dates) around it.

I would not let the fact that you had a good time on your date cloud the fact that he told you up front that he is not interested in a relationship.

As for being "scammed," aside from this being way too much info for a first date, that doesn't sound like the right word at all. They were together for 5 years and he loaned her money at the 3 year mark.  She didn't pay it back.  It's upsetting but not all that unusual. Either he is playing up his reaction to further reinforce his unwillingness to be in a relationship, or he is quite fragile.

Regardless, the facts of the situation are:

- he stated his intentions (or lack thereof)

- you had sex

- he's cooled off

You've made your interest clear. I think the ball is firmly in his court.

[Amanda141]

@introverted1 thanks for your reply. I agree it was too much info for the first date, actually I didn't ask him, it was him to bring up the "ex relationships" topic and used the words "scam, deception, manipulation" to describe it. He talked about it for more than 30 mins. It was a really large amount of money (more than 10.000 euros) and since at the time he wasn't working, he had to use his father's money. It must have felt horrible. He also went on telling me he fell into depression during that time... I think it was a bit too much oversharing for the first date, however it could also mean he felt at ease with me and comfortable enough to open up his feelings.

So now what do you suggest, just wait and see what he does? 

 

[stillafool]

3 hours ago, Amanda141 said:

On my profile, I put "looking for a relationship".

So because you've met him you are willing to downgrade yourself to this:

49 minutes ago, Amanda141 said:

He told me that the betrayal from his ex girlfriend was worse than cheating and affect him A LOT. Right now I would be okay with a FWB situation, but only time will tell... 

I just need to give him space and time. I won't text him until Christmas Day... Even if it's hard for me I will have to draw my attention to something else until I come back here in two weeks.

 

This is the mistake many women make.  Once they meet a guy that rings their bell they forget about what they originally wanted to go after a guy who has told them what he does not want.  Then their feelings get hurt when he doesn't want what they want.  I bet you aren't the only woman who wants this guy after a few dates with him.  He knows how to date.

[stillafool]

2 minutes ago, Amanda141 said:

He talked about it for more than 30 mins. 

This is because he's still not over her.  

[Amanda141]

@stillafool he definitely knows how to date, but to be fair he didn't give me the "f***boy" vibe. Not at all. Of course I would prefer a relationship but I don't even know if I will be living in this city in a year's time so it's really hard to make plans and maybe I should be more open to what it could happen... I don't know. Honestly I'm a bit confused.

He really seemed sincere and I appreciated the fact he told me the truth. Regarding the story about his ex, I felt like it hurt him a lot. They were together for 5 years. She was also 5 years older than him (so when they split they were 25 and 30) and he clearly told me he thought it was gonna last, especially since she was already in age where people tend to settle down! It was really a shock for him. I don't think he still loves her, but his heart is still not okay 100%. I never had a relationship that lasted that long, but it must hurt like hell... i will see. Now the plan is to enjoy Xmas holidays with my loved ones and the only thing I'll do is wish him merry xmas on that day. Then time will tell... I am coming back to the city in 2 weeks so I will see... hoping for the best. It would be ok for me to keep seeing him and see how it goes. However, I still have my options open. One important thing I didn't mention is that I am seeing another guy at the moment (who wants a serious relationship). We had 3 dates, nothing happened, he is nice but I just don't feel it. Why do I always like the emotionally unavailable guys ! 

 

[stillafool]

1 minute ago, Amanda141 said:

Why do I always like the emotionally unavailable guys ! 

 

This is your problem right here.  This guy warned you he wasn't available emotionally and you went for it.  That should have been your que to swipe pass him.  I don't know what his ex being 5 years older than him has to do with his pain but it's usually the ones who hurt us the most that are the hardest to get over.  You admit his heart is not healed.  How long ago did they break up?

[introverted1]

30 minutes ago, Amanda141 said:

@introverted1 thanks for your reply. I agree it was too much info for the first date, actually I didn't ask him, it was him to bring up the "ex relationships" topic and used the words "scam, deception, manipulation" to describe it. He talked about it for more than 30 mins. It was a really large amount of money (more than 10.000 euros) and since at the time he wasn't working, he had to use his father's money. It must have felt horrible. He also went on telling me he fell into depression during that time... I think it was a bit too much oversharing for the first date, however it could also mean he felt at ease with me and comfortable enough to open up his feelings.

So now what do you suggest, just wait and see what he does? 

 

I think the fact that he shared this at all on a first date, let alone dwelling on it for 30 minutes, means that either he is not being honest with you (people tend to "oversell" when they are not being honest) OR he is fragile (as I initially suggested) and definitely not ready to date.  I lean more toward the former than the latter hypothesis as he seems quite skilled at dating and even his "Maybe we could go to mine or yours, but if you don't feel like it, we can do it another time" seems quite confident, and rightly so.

But, in a sense, it doesn't matter which hypothesis is accurate.  You've had sex and now he's pulled back.  Whether that's because he needs some breathing space or because the thrill of the chase is now gone, I still don't think there is anything for you to do.  Sure, you can send him a Merry Christmas text on the 25th, but if he has not reached out to you, after effectively canceling the date he proposed for Sunday, then I am not sure his interest mirrors yours, unfortunately.  If it were me I'd take a big step back, evaluate what I want, and determine whether this guy is in a position to give it to me.

Edited December 19, 2021 by introverted1
typo

[stillafool]

15 minutes ago, Amanda141 said:

@stillafool he definitely knows how to date, but to be fair he didn't give me the "f***boy" vibe.

His skill at knowing how to date is probably attributed to being with an older woman.  I never said he was a fboy.  Quite the contrary.

[Amanda141]

@stillafool they broke up a year ago, and told me he's better now but it wasn't easy to accept that the girl he loved and which he saw in his future behaved like that. He also told me they had many fights in the last period of the relationship. The good thing is that now he snoozed his dating app, which makes me think he is not looking around anymore. In the message he sent me today he told me he was feeling "down", I don't know for what reason, maybe just holidays blues or maybe some sad memories as around this time last year the breakup happened (together with the death of his grandpa and his surgery).

He's really nice and I can't blame him as he has been straightforward from the beginning. Only thing, if I were him I wouldn't have talked so much in detail about the story with his ex. He could have simply told me "after 5 years I felt betrayed and had trust issues", but I think he talked a lot about it because it really affected his confidence and trust...

@introverted1 I think he's a very sensitive and fragile guy but good at dating. He's very charming and a pure gentleman. Yes, yesterdaty he was the one suggesting to meet today as well but then he called it off. Probably, as he told me, he had a bad day and just wanted time for himself, I don't know. Sometimes we say we are up for something in the heat of the moment but then when we think about it more we realise we actually prefer doing something else. After all we spent so many hours together... i understand he wanted time for himself. I think I'll see him again in January (fingers crossed) and see how it goes

[Girl Fade Away]

Amanda, not sure where you get he is "emotionally unavailable," the man opened himself up to you, allowed himself to be vulnerable with you, your two dates lasted 6+ hours, how is that him being emotionally unavailable?

He isn't ready for a serious relationship, that's all.  He may have experience with women pushing pushing pushing (not uncommon) so he set some boundaries.  

I think what you are doing now is what some of us warned you about -- overthinking and over-analyzing.

Relax!  Enjoy your connection.  See where it goes.  That is what I would do and have done!  And in time, it turned into a long term serious relationship in part because I was relaxed about it and did NOT push. 

I was not without some uncertainty but I contained it, I did NOT burden him with it by seeking reassurance etc.   I had faith and trust in our connection and focused on that. 

That said, there is also the possibility it will NOT go anywhere, this is a risk you will have to take. 

No risk, no reward.  Again, stay secure, centered and grounded. 

Try and detach from the outcome and embrace the moment, enjoy the journey. 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Girl Fade Away

[spiderowl]

Amanda, I can see you really like this guy.  He has told you he doesn't want a relationship (for whatever reason) so it is best to believe that and act accordingly.  

I know this guy opened up to you but I also feel you need to be careful here.  If what he tells you is true, then he has been through a lot.  He is also very bitter and lacking in trust, saying what he has said about his ex.  He is not over this and is still dwelling on it.  In that sense, he is not emotionally open to a new relationship.

Looking at this from another point of view, he may not be telling the truth.  I know that seems harsh but there are people who tell lies and who are con artists.  They play on emotions and they are good at this because they know how to come across as convincing.  If he is telling the truth, the guy has truly suffered - and believe me I know what it is like to lose close relatives to Covid - however, there are other possibilities that I think you should consider.  The possibility that his ex wasn't as he said, that she didn't cheat him, that he is a guy who convinces people he has been badly treated to get their sympathy.  I only mention this because I met a conman in my youth.  I did not get involved with him emotionally but he ended up stealing items precious to me and also money.  He had a few sob stories.  His ex wife had taken his children, etc.  He was well known to local police as a thief and conman, but of course they don't warn people.  I think you need to suspend judgement on his life circumstances until you have objective evidence (from meeting his friends and family, for example).  I know it's awful to have to be so distrusting but I am older and have learned the hard way.

I hope none of the above is true, that he is a decent guy (but bear in mind that he was smooth and convincing).  His bitterness over his ex means he is busy dwelling on that and you are likely to be peripheral to this.  This is not any reflection on you, it just means that you will not be his priority and you deserve to be some lucky guy's priority.

When a guy says he's not looking for a relationship, believe him!  

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by spiderowl

[IrinaM]

Hun this speech about the scamming ex is meant to weed out women who have self-respect. A woman with self-respect is going to focus on herself and achieving her goals, and not care about the emotional well-being of some guy who already made it plain he only wants a friend with benefits. The only reason women believe these hard-luck, I've-been-hurt-before stories is desperation. You want his story to be true. If this "bad ex girlfriend who came before you and ruined things for you" story is true, then he's a great guy who has been hurt, and just needs to be nursed back to emotional health before he realizes he in fact is ready to love again. Of course, if this story is just part of his spiel, then he's a bad investment of your time and energy. You are choosing to believe what you want to believe.

[stillafool]

4 minutes ago, spiderowl said:

Amanda, I can see you really like this guy.  He has told you he doesn't want a relationship (for whatever reason) so it is best to believe that and act accordingly.  

I don't know why women have such a hard time believing and accepting this.  Is this some form of entitlement?

[spiderowl]

1 minute ago, stillafool said:

I don't know why women have such a hard time believing and accepting this.  Is this some form of entitlement?

Not at all.  What if the situation were reversed and a woman said to a man she didn't want a relationship?  Would all men believe her?

[IrinaM]

^^wishful thinking plain and simple. Plus, dating can be very tiring, just like everything else in life. It's tempting to think, well, maybe I can get this to work after all.

@Amanda141I would have thought this guy was a scam from jump. When he "didn't realize" your profile said "relationship wanted," and sincerely apologized, and made you a lower offer instead. I would think that's game he's running, not an honest mistake.

[Girl Fade Away]

 

15 minutes ago, stillafool said:

I don't know why women have such a hard time believing and accepting this.  Is this some form of entitlement?

Just my take but I think Amanda does recognize he doesn't want a serious relationship (at the moment which is what he said).   

But she feels such a strong connection with him, she is choosing to be open and flexible and enjoy the connection for what it is, nothing more nothing less. 

That was my attitude the one time this happened; it eventually led to a serious relationship that lasted years, which I never expected. I ended it eventually (long story). 

Not suggesting she count on that but reading her initial post again, their connection does sound genuine versus some conartist.

But then again, you never know but sometimes we simply have to trust our own instincts and follow our own intuition. 

Good luck Amanda, if you're inclined keep us updated.  

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Girl Fade Away