35 year old male virgin - not sure what to do

[SharpshooterTom]

Hi all,

I'm a 35 year old male virgin whos never been on a date, never been kissed, or even had a female friend.

So what's gone wrong?  I was the always unpopular kid at school who nobody wanted to be friends with.  What childhood friends I did have often became my school bullies who would get the whole class against me if I wasn't doing them certain favours etc.  I moved school aged 14 and at the same time was developing social anxiety, which became quite severe.  I became frightened about making friends due to previous trauma and getting close to people.  So I became a massive recluse and felt comfort avoiding social situations.  This continued throughout my college years being the class loner/loser until I was 25 and attempted suicide.  I was later diagnosed with severe depression and went on a therapy course to deal with my low self esteem.  Although it was useful to finally speak about my problems, it didn't really address my real issue of severe social anxiety, which after contacting my doctor last year about feeling suicidal once again, I'm now for the first time getting CBT therapy for my Social Anxiety.

I currently work in a factory but looking to go back to college with a long term plan for a career in actuarial science or a medical career (dentistry or pharmacy).

I've been working hard in the past few years to break my social anxiety, putting myself out there, trying to strike up conversations with techniques I've learned with my therapist, considering to go further now and join some clubs, and out of work social actvities etc.  We are making some very good progress.

But one thing that concerns me is all my social contact, and all the (few) friends I've had in my life have always been male.  I've had issues recently trying to talk to women (not a creepy/sexual way, just a cordial/friendly way just like I would do with men) but for some reason I cannot for the life of me make any inroads in socialising with women, and I'm not sure why that is?

Like today I was working with a woman in her 20s who I see daily but only worked with her for the first time, and so I wanted to break the ice and tried to chat to her, i.e. how long have you been working here, do you like it here, just nonsense stuff really, but she was very cold, very short answers "umm yeah I guess'", she never once asked me any questions, so I got impression to stop talking to her really as she looked bored with me.  Then when another guy takes over she is very chatty all of a sudden.  This happens a lot with my social interactions with women.

This worries me, because clearly my virginity is a product of my social anxiety and being a recluse I get that, which Im trying to address now, but if I can't have any women to enjoy my social company how on earth I expect to ever get a girlfriend?  I know the prognosis for someone in my situation is not good, but I dont want to die a virgin never experiencing a relationship.  It hurts me.

Any suggestions about what I can do?

[mermermer2]

Hi Tom,

Your openness about this subject is a great sign and you seem like a nice guy. I have had similar experiences and share your pains, but I was probably a little better off with you in terms of social anxiety. I did develop generalized anxiety in my early 20s which is very paralyzing, but have since recovered for the most part and can live a normal life.

You should know some things (if you don't already) so that you can manage your expectations and be efficient. As well as some ideas:

- Women (people in general) will be interested in you based on a lot more than what conversation opener you use. Most of this happens in the subconscious and she has no conscious control of this. You must accept that not all women are going to be interested in you and when that happens, respect their needs and simply move on. Ruminating over rejections will only delay you on your path to happiness and connection.

- You're probably not going to be able to trick women into thinking you're something you're not. Be yourself and be honest, but equally importantly: don't dump all of your pains on anyone all at once, or too early. People will empathize and accept you for who you are so long as they are not a constant treatment for your emotional state.

- If you struggle initiating with women randomly in the real world, try a dating app or website. You'll find mostly rejection there, as will most people, but recognize that this is for the best. You don't want to end up with someone who isn't genuinely interested in you. When you do find a match, see where it goes! And if it goes nowhere, you'll have many more opportunities to try again with someone else.

Your anxiety and lack of experience is probably going to be recognized by many women without you having to tell them about it. I speak from experience. These emotions will change how you carry yourself, how much confidence you display and how you think about and see the world. You can be very good looking but simultaneously unattractive to others. Starting with a dating app or website is a good way to mitigate this and to let someone get to know you a little bit before trying to take things further.

But these feelings and how they might impact your attractiveness to others (again, regardless of how good looking you might be) will change with time. You'll get more comfortable with women whether you like it or not, simply by talking to them and pursuing them. And in turn, whether you like it or not, people will pick up on this. It's just how it works and it's not something we consciously do. Just try! 

Edited November 23, 2021 by neuralvines

[SharpshooterTom]

Thanks for taking the time to write that detailed response neuralvines.  I appreciate the advice.

I just want to point out all my interactions with women I have aren't based on whether or not I want to have sex with them or whether I want to date them.  One of the criticisms I hear of older male virgins who struggle to socialise with women is that they often dont view them as normal human beings but rather as sex objects and build up a sense of fear of talking to them because of it.  I'm trying to avoid this thinking and just trying to build up relationships with women platonically first if I can.

But I'm struggling to do that.  To be fair 90% of men think I suck too and want nothing to do with, its just the very few who like to socialise with me (and there aren't many of those I stress) its usually men.

I wont enter the dating world until I know I'm able to socialise with women on a platonic level first.  Trying to go into OLD with my track record on a social level with the opposite sex would be a disaster.

[dramafreezone]

1 hour ago, SharpshooterTom said:

 

I wont enter the dating world until I know I'm able to socialise with women on a platonic level first.  Trying to go into OLD with my track record on a social level with the opposite sex would be a disaster.

OLD is the worst thing to do in your case, so you're right to avoid it.

Do you still meet with your therapist?  I would continue that if so.

Maybe look into hiring a dating coach.  Also look into meetup groups for common interests such as trivia or board games.  Go out and do things you like to do, and then if you meet women you'll be more in your natural element as opposed to some contrived traditional "dating experience."

[glows]

4 hours ago, SharpshooterTom said:

Like today I was working with a woman in her 20s who I see daily but only worked with her for the first time, and so I wanted to break the ice and tried to chat to her, i.e. how long have you been working here, do you like it here, just nonsense stuff really, but she was very cold, very short answers "umm yeah I guess'", she never once asked me any questions, so I got impression to stop talking to her really as she looked bored with me. 

You yourself identified those questions as "nonsense stuff" so why would anyone else be intrigued? Generally anything to do with the employer will be a turn off as it's ripe fodder for office gossip. Asking someone you don't have any rapport with at work whether they like working at the very place you're both similarly working at will make anyone uncomfortable. If she says yes, she may be lying to keep her job. If she says no, she'd be complaining about her job. Stay away from chatting up the women at work and keep things cordial and professional, work-related. Eventually some camaraderie will develop over time. 

I agree with the previous comment about continuing with therapy and helping your self-esteem, join interest groups with others, share your voice and opinion and value welcoming spaces, discard groups you don't have much in common with. 

[SharpshooterTom]

21 minutes ago, glows said:

You yourself identified those questions as "nonsense stuff" so why would anyone else be intrigued? Generally anything to do with the employer will be a turn off as it's ripe fodder for office gossip. Asking someone you don't have any rapport with at work whether they like working at the very place you're both similarly working at will make anyone uncomfortable. If she says yes, she may be lying to keep her job. If she says no, she'd be complaining about her job. Stay away from chatting up the women at work and keep things cordial and professional, work-related. Eventually some camaraderie will develop over time. 

I agree with the previous comment about continuing with therapy and helping your self-esteem, join interest groups with others, share your voice and opinion and value welcoming spaces, discard groups you don't have much in common with. 

I wasn't "chatting her up", or at least I wasn't meaning to.  Look my social skills suck but my therapist told me to start taking some risks and start talking to people, and eventually, over time, I might break my social anxiety and develop social skills (slowly).  Not talking to people and avoiding conversations is the reason why I am in this situation in the first place.  The road maybe rocky and I will make plenty of mistakes like yesturday, but I have to try.

The old me for the last 35 years would have not said a single word and ignored her, but as I say, thats the reason why I've ended up a mid thirties virgin who has never had a female friend in my entire life.  The important thing is despite set backs I don't give up and go back into my shell.  Thats my natural default position.

Edited November 23, 2021 by SharpshooterTom

[glows]

2 minutes ago, SharpshooterTom said:

I wasn't "chatting her up", or at least I wasn't meaning to.  Look my social skills suck but my therapist told me to start taking some risks and start talking to people, and eventually, over time, I might break my social anxiety and develop social skills (slowly).  Not talking to people and avoiding conversations is the reason why I am in this situation in the first place.  The road maybe rocky and I will make plenty of mistakes like yesturday, but I have to try.

The old me for the last 35 years would have not said a single word and ignored her, but as I say, thats the reason why I've ended up a mid thirties virgin who has never had a female friend.  The important thing is despite set backs I don't give up and go back into my shell. 

Yes, that's fine and do listen to your therapist. Also consider whether some of the questions or topics especially in a work-related setting are appropriate or may make others uncomfortable. Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes or practicing empathy or understanding for the other side. Your coworker seemed very uncomfortable but I'm pointing out that this can be helped. If you don't know someone well in the workplace, keep it brief with a hello and how are you. Keep doing that each day and slowly people will recognize you too and ask how things are with you. Friendships and relationships take time to build so start small and go from there. 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, SharpshooterTom said:

I wont enter the dating world until I know I'm able to socialise with women on a platonic level first.  

Ok. Join some groups, clubs, volunteer, get into sports and fitness. All low-key ways to have something in common to talk about and practice socializing.

Then follow up regularly with your physician and therapist.

Most of all get rid of the incels mentality and continually referring to yourself as "a 35 yo virgin". It's not cute.

Social anxiety is one thing and by getting out there as your therapist suggests it a great idea.

You need to be interested in other people. Empathy is an important quality.

So step outside your shell and simply smile be genuinely interested in others and take it from there.

 

 

 

[smackie9]

If you think sex would break you out of this slump, then pay for sex. I know a few that went this route. No one has to know about it.

[SharpshooterTom]

16 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Most of all get rid of the incels mentality and continually referring to yourself as "a 35 yo virgin". It's not cute.

I don't actually project this IRL, no one knows about my virginity.  What it is however is a consequence of being unable to socialize and form connections with people, since few people are still virgins over the age of 35, not by choice anyway.  And the way I'm going I fear I'm going to be dying one and desperately dont want to be.

Most "incels" don't think there is anything wrong with them, they blame women collectively as whole for being in the situation they're in.  I've never blamed anyone but myself and know the problem lies squarly at my inability to socialize with people properly.  There are far ugly guys than me who have gotten married/laid, poorer guys than me, shorter guys than me, so its obviously something I do differently that is putting people off me.

8 hours ago, smackie9 said:

If you think sex would break you out of this slump, then pay for sex. I know a few that went this route. No one has to know about it.

But why would it break me out of this slump?  How would sleeping with a prostitute change the fact that I can't form social connections with people especially women?  At best it might help me prepare for sex, but its not going to fix the overriding which is I can't get women to enjoy my social company.  I'd rather have sex with someone who sees some value in me and WANTS to have sex with me also, not because they're getting paid too.

Edited November 24, 2021 by SharpshooterTom

[Happy Lemming]

OK... so you have a fear. And because you let this fear take charge for so long, it has grown stronger and stronger.  You can't change what has happened in the past, you can only move forward.

The way you beat this fear is to take its power away.  You do that by going out into the world and talking to people.

If there are no pandemic restrictions in your area, is there a local bar or pub that you can go to?? Do you have the ability to sit down at a bar/pub and have a drink and/or some appetizers??

[dramafreezone]

59 minutes ago, SharpshooterTom said:

But why would it break me out of this slump?  How would sleeping with a prostitute change the fact that I can't form social connections with people especially women?  At best it might help me prepare for sex, but its not going to fix the overriding which is I can't get women to enjoy my social company.  I'd rather have sex with someone who sees some value in me and WANTS to have sex with me also, not because they're getting paid too.

All I hear is you talking about what you can't do.  This isn't the type of thinking that's going to change your reality.

Sex is great but it's not this magical gift that has to be attained.  It is a necessary activity to sustain the human race on Earth.

You're past the point where you're just going to snap out of this by yourself and begin to lead an enriching life of interpersonal relationships without assistance.  You need to hire professionals (like dating coaches, therapists) to help you through this.

Edited November 24, 2021 by dramafreezone

[SharpshooterTom]

40 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... so you have a fear. And because you let this fear take charge for so long, it has grown stronger and stronger.  You can't change what has happened in the past, you can only move forward.

The way you beat this fear is to take its power away.  You do that by going out into the world and talking to people.

If there are no pandemic restrictions in your area, is there a local bar or pub that you can go to?? Do you have the ability to sit down at a bar/pub and have a drink and/or some appetizers??

I've never been in a nightclub before (no joke), I'm never in bars or pubs, just stay at home all evening on the internet by myself.  Thats been me for the past 35 years and its been a disaster, it also means my social skills have clearly suffered and I come across as odd socially, not well trained and behind my peers.  I'm thinking about working in a bar after this factory job.  Bar work would have previously made me run for the hill, but I have to confront those social situations head on and put myself constantly in social situations I'm not used to/find uncomfortable.  Its hard work but I'm willing change large parts of my lifestyle entirely if I have to, because I know the other side of the fence is suicidal thoughts and severe depression.

17 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

All I hear is you talking about what you can't do.  This isn't the type of thinking that's going to change your reality.

Sex is great but it's not this magical gift that has to be attained.  It is a necessary activity to sustain the human race on Earth.

You're past the point where you're just going to snap out of this by yourself and begin to lead an enriching life of interpersonal relationships.  You need to hire professionals (like dating coaches, therapists) to help you through this.

I honestly don't know whether it is past the point, because previously I just haven't actually tried or put myself out there, and I am absolutely willing to change that now.  It really is a case of not putting any effort in previously.

Maybe my expectations are too high also and I'm putting a lot of pressure on myself thinking this should be changed quickly, when I have been like this for 20 very long years, so I get frustrated with myself like with my coworker example, demanding too much of myself and instead realise the path to improving my social skills might be a long one and patience is required, providing I work my arse off and constantly putting myself out there from here on in.

I'm considering a dating coach in future for sure, but I want to just improve my social skills and general chit chat with women for now.

Edited November 24, 2021 by SharpshooterTom

[Happy Lemming]

Just now, SharpshooterTom said:

I've never been in a nightclub before (no joke), I'm never in bars or pubs, just stay at home all evening on the internet by myself.

 

OK... can you try to go to a local pub/bar??  Is there a sport you like to watch on TV?? Can you go to a local sports bar while that game (sport) is playing??

[SharpshooterTom]

6 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... can you try to go to a local pub/bar??  Is there a sport you like to watch on TV?? Can you go to a local sports bar while that game (sport) is playing??

I can with my brother, but I don't drink.  Although nothing really changes that much in all honesty since I'm just sitting there with him, maybe I should do more and try and chat to strangers once in a while?

Edited November 24, 2021 by SharpshooterTom

[Happy Lemming]

4 minutes ago, SharpshooterTom said:

I can with my brother, but I don't drink.

No... you should try to go by yourself.  You don't want your brother to be your safety net, the goal is casual conversation (about what is going on during the game/sport) with complete strangers.  You can have a soft drink (coke or diet coke). Maybe have an appetizer, potato skins, chicken wings, mozzarella sticks??

If you can't go into a bar/pub, do you have the ability to go into a local diner and get a cup of coffee and an piece of pie at the counter??

[SharpshooterTom]

48 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

No... you should try to go by yourself.  You don't want your brother to be your safety net, the goal is casual conversation (about what is going on during the game/sport) with complete strangers.  You can have a soft drink (coke or diet coke). Maybe have an appetizer, potato skins, chicken wings, mozzarella sticks??

If you can't go into a bar/pub, do you have the ability to go into a local diner and get a cup of coffee and an piece of pie at the counter??

Absolutely, no problem.  I can go into a bar/pub as well alone although because I don't drink on top of being a recluse previously I have actively avoided it.  I certainly would be open to changing that though.  I want to try new things because whatever I've done in the past hasn't worked.

Edited November 24, 2021 by SharpshooterTom

[Happy Lemming]

OK... GREAT!!  Let's start with "baby steps".  I'm sure there is a local diner (somewhat nearby), go in there, head to the counter and order a cup of coffee and a piece of pie.  If there is anyone else sitting at the counter, just smile and say "hello". 

Keep in mind, that you are taking your first step to winning against your fear.  It will fight back, as it doesn't want to die... but you are stronger than that fear and you can beat it.

Once you are comfortable getting a cup of coffee and a piece of pie (by yourself) you can transition to going into bars/pubs and talking to other individuals.

So... when are you going to get that coffee and pie??

[glows]

Can you not convince yourself that it's fun to explore and go somewhere or adventure somewhere on your own for a day? Don't keep telling yourself you've been set back x years and so and so. Just do the opposite of what you've been doing and have fun. 

[Yosemite]

What did kids tease you about when you were a kid?

Why couldn't you make friends when you were in grade school? 

Does your brother have the same issues you do? 

Does your father give you any advice? If so, what is it? 

You said that even now as an adult, most men don't like you. Do you have any idea why? 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, SharpshooterTom said:

, maybe I should do more and try and chat to strangers once in a while?

Get a side job that involves people. Volunteer. Take some classes and courses. Join some groups and clubs. Get involved in fitness and sports.

You don't have to drink or hang out in bars. But...if you wish to improve social skills you'll need low pressure regular interaction with people.

Yes smile and chitchat with regular people you encounter. Store cletks, neighbors etc. Don't go to prostitutes. Horrible idea and it's demeaning rather than skill building.

[smackie9]

14 hours ago, SharpshooterTom said:

I don't actually project this IRL, no one knows about my virginity.  What it is however is a consequence of being unable to socialize and form connections with people, since few people are still virgins over the age of 35, not by choice anyway.  And the way I'm going I fear I'm going to be dying one and desperately dont want to be.

Most "incels" don't think there is anything wrong with them, they blame women collectively as whole for being in the situation they're in.  I've never blamed anyone but myself and know the problem lies squarly at my inability to socialize with people properly.  There are far ugly guys than me who have gotten married/laid, poorer guys than me, shorter guys than me, so its obviously something I do differently that is putting people off me.

But why would it break me out of this slump?  How would sleeping with a prostitute change the fact that I can't form social connections with people especially women?  At best it might help me prepare for sex, but its not going to fix the overriding which is I can't get women to enjoy my social company.  I'd rather have sex with someone who sees some value in me and WANTS to have sex with me also, not because they're getting paid too.

Getting it over with will give you the confidence you need to go forward. In other words more of a swagger, a vibe.

Sex is just that sex. It's not unicorns pulling golden chariots. This is what I have learned over the years talking to guys trying to break out of their virginism.....putting the sexual experience up on a pedestal, and treating it like a golden chalice puts a lot of unnecessary expectations on sex. It's preventing you from actually having it, and breaking down that barrier being able to interact with women.

I'm not saying go to a hooker when you want sex...no, I am suggesting you do it the one time.

[Foxhall]

On 11/23/2021 at 2:23 AM, SharpshooterTom said:

Like today I was working with a woman in her 20s who I see daily but only worked with her for the first time, and so I wanted to break the ice and tried to chat to her, i.e. how long have you been working here, do you like it here, just nonsense stuff really, but she was very cold, very short answers "umm yeah I guess'", she never once asked me any questions, so I got impression to stop talking to her really as she looked bored with me.  Then when another guy takes over she is very chatty all of a sudden.  This happens a lot with my social interactions with women.

You have to develop a thick skin and not let this type of response get you down,

Keep trying to start conversations and keep up with whats going on, good your making progress with therapist and so on with all of that

as a rule of thumb 20 something ladies relate quite well to popular culture and  if you can break the ice on them subjects, it helps put them at ease.

dont worry though- all these social skills can be a learned skill, one does improve at it through time.

and they do get a little easier to chat with as they move past 30- so all ahead of you. 

 

[balletomane]

On 11/23/2021 at 6:57 AM, SharpshooterTom said:

I wasn't "chatting her up", or at least I wasn't meaning to.  Look my social skills suck but my therapist told me to start taking some risks and start talking to people, and eventually, over time, I might break my social anxiety and develop social skills (slowly).  Not talking to people and avoiding conversations is the reason why I am in this situation in the first place.  The road maybe rocky and I will make plenty of mistakes like yesturday, but I have to try.

The old me for the last 35 years would have not said a single word and ignored her, but as I say, thats the reason why I've ended up a mid thirties virgin who has never had a female friend in my entire life.  The important thing is despite set backs I don't give up and go back into my shell.  Thats my natural default position.

Your therapist is right. This is the best way to break out of anxious thinking and it sounds as though you've made a really good start.

First, try and give yourself credit for what you've accomplished so far. Bullying is a scarring experience. I've met many adults who were still profoundly affected by things that happened to them at school, but they never sought help because they felt silly and ashamed to be so bothered by childhood events. Acknowledging the source of your problems and seeking to make positive changes in your life is itself a big step. It shows insight, honesty, strength of character, and willingness to change instead of just passively accepting life as it is. All of these are good qualities in a friend or a partner.

Second, be aware of when your social anxiety is trying to muscle in on your thoughts. I'm sure this is something you're already working on with your therapist. I would bet money that your belief about other men not liking you is rooted in anxiety rather than in what they actually think. By this point in life a lot of people are settled in their friendships and they aren't actively seeking to widen their social circle, so what you may see as cold and hostile treatment, they may see as a polite acquaintanceship. Yes, it's not fun trying to find friends in your thirties, but it's highly unlikely that their behaviour is as pointed or as personal as your anxiety would have you believe.

Third, while it's great to push back against your anxiety by striking up conversations at work, for the purpose of making friends it would be easiest if you took up a hobby or activity where you can meet like-minded people. That way the focus will be on the activity, which may be less daunting for you, but you'll still get chance to talk to others. Joining a support group for people with social anxiety might also help. It's often easier to socialise with people who have their own personal insight into the things you find difficult.

Finally, don't give up hope. You didn't become socially anxious overnight, and you won't stop being anxious overnight either. It is going to take time, and you'll need to be patient with yourself, but you'll get there.

[Tinie]

21 hours ago, SharpshooterTom said:

I can with my brother, but I don't drink.  Although nothing really changes that much in all honesty since I'm just sitting there with him, maybe I should do more and try and chat to strangers once in a while?

You don't have to go to a bar. But you need to do more than go home and hang out on the Internet. Back in my single days, I used to like going to salsa socials. It was easy to meet single guys there and that's how I had met one of my exes. I also knew some single guys who went to these socials because it was easy to meet girls. It's also not as awkward as at a bar, because the both of you are dancing, relaxed and having a fun time. I would feel a little suspicious if someone cold-approached me at a bar (I hate bars), but I'm much more at ease while dancing.

You need to find some hobbies that involve being around other people. You could attend classes to learn new skills (acting, art, sports, etc) and at the same time meet new people. If you're really struggling to be social, then it might help to treat these situations as practice (it might put too much pressure on yourself to feel like you need to go out and immediately find a girl). If you participate in different activities, it also makes you a more appealing person. You don't have to be the most good-looking guy, the best dressed or the tallest if you're someone who can hold an interesting conversation.