It's complicated - insight needed

[elaine567]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:46 AM, TamBuktu said:

I’m committing to shift from light, sweet and humorous to more serious. At first he reacted like he thinks I’m mad about something as I wasn’t my bubbly self then we had heart to heart about marriages how our families did things and what we like

You have already "switched".
It was planned, it was deliberate.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You have already "switched".
It was planned, it was deliberate.

Actually you're right. That by itself is a big switch.

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Why is it urgent when you have embryos frozen with young eggs

I am worried we'll be too old to be parents even if biologically is feasible.

I am also worried I'll lose my composure. I'm worried I am crumbling down under peer pressure... 

Otherwise yes, there is no emergency.

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

to strip the situation to merely factual

Ok. It's rather straight forward, from what you've written. You want marriage and family. He's a married man who disrespects, cheats on and lies to his wife. 

After years of friendship and casual, you want more. Such as a committed relationship with him. But alas he's married and not considering divorcing his wife or marrying you.

[RebeccaR]

4 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You have already "switched".
It was planned, it was deliberate.

It’s clear from the quote comment that he wants banter and sex (maybe stuff his wife isn’t into), not a new wife. And as for the baby, maybe he has some enjoyment thinking his genes will carry on after he’s gone, but I HIGHLY doubt he wants to raise a child. 

[TamBuktu]

Wise and Rebecca, yes. In a snapshot. 

Life is not a snapshot though. 

Let's turn the clock back 5 years. I was in a relationship with a different person. I was dreading marriage. I didn't want children, or maybe some day. I had a different friend circle. I had different political and religious beliefs. I was aspiring to a different career path. I was swearing left and right that I'd never date a divorced man - if I ever date again, I thought I never will anyway. Affair? "Are you kidding me, I'd never do that." I had different set of concerns. My dreams were different. I thought I will never experience true love because "I'm not designed this way".

That's 5 years only.

People change. They don't get "manipulated into change". It's natural to change. It's natural to evolve. It's expected to see different side of the world as circumstances change.

I really digressed but I really wanted to make a point. The snapshot presented does not cover up the evolution of our relationship. And I didn't get in it with a final destination goal. Goals emerged from it's evolution rather than molding it to pre-set goals. 

 

 

 

All said above - yes. At the current moment our goals, to the best of my knowledge, are misaligned, for the exact reasons that you guys stated.

[RebeccaR]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Wise and Rebecca, yes. In a snapshot. 

Life is not a snapshot though. 

Let's turn the clock back 5 years. I was in a relationship with a different person. I was dreading marriage. I didn't want children, or maybe some day. I had a different friend circle. I had different political and religious beliefs. I was aspiring to a different career path. I was swearing left and right that I'd never date a divorced man - if I ever date again, I thought I never will anyway. Affair? "Are you kidding me, I'd never do that." I had different set of concerns. My dreams were different. I thought I will never experience true love because "I'm not designed this way".

That's 5 years only.

People change. They don't get "manipulated into change". It's natural to change. It's natural to evolve. It's expected to see different side of the world as circumstances change.

I really digressed but I really wanted to make a point. The snapshot presented does not cover up the evolution of our relationship. And I didn't get in it with a final destination goal. Goals emerged from it's evolution rather than molding it to pre-set goals. 

 

 

 

All said above - yes. At the current moment our goals, to the best of my knowledge, are misaligned, for the exact reasons that you guys stated.

Having been through some changes myself, I understand people change over time. What we see is your change has been rapid (especially given the incredible differences you have just described in the span of 5 years) and the fact all the change is centered around this one man. Add the fact that he is married and not looking to leave his marriage, and the change you describe seems extreme, to say the least. And it’s odd you describe “true love” as causing this change. Every adult knows love is an incredible feeling, but not every love feeling is destined to end in marriage, kids, or forever togetherness. You have a very teenage view of relationships which is not serving you well.

[Starswillshine]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Star, did your ex-H showed signs of cheating prior to the OW disclosing it to you? Also, was he manipulative with you before the affair happened? I am just trying to understand the other side.

Hindsight is a tricky thing, but yes, absolutely, he manipulative me our entire marriage. We were together for 20 years. There were some simple things that I realized in the moment (or rather a few moments later). For instance, he would want to do one thing, I would want to do another. We would talk it out to come to compromise. I would walk away feeling ok that we compromised and we both got what we want. Later, I would realize that no, he got what he wanted, and I didn't get anything. But he worded things, talked in vague terms, twisted things just enough, added such sweet terms, that it all felt like I got exactly what I wanted...

As far as was there signs? Yes, there was. His phone habits changed. He would normally just leave it laying around, and I noticed that it just stayed in his pocket. I actually asked him about it (lol @ me for ever thinking that a cheating man would actually be honest and say, "Yeah, I'm cheating on you, that's why). I thought he would have an explanation that would make me feel better. And of course, it was something like, "Oh, I didn't even realize I was doing that. Oh gosh, honey, I am SO SORRY that this has caused you so much stress and anxiety. I would never do anything to hurt you or our family. God, I love you so much." 

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

"You make him out to be this poor helpless guy who cannot leave a relationship and always help other people. I have experience with this with my ex husband. He will never leave any sort of relationship or cut people out... he has a great need for people to idolize him. Every person who has ever left his life is because they get tired of his crap. " - if you can elaborate a bit on this, will be very helpful. I see some similarities unfortunately.

For instance, there was a lady who he had business dealings with. He called her names like fat pig, etc. He hated her from what he has told me (again, who knows the truth). He would talk so much crap about her. But then when she would call, you would think she hung the moon. When I asked why he talked so much crap about her, but buttered her up... he said because she controlled his business and so he needed her to absolutely love him. He would find out when she had bad meetings with her boss, so that he could specifically call her and  be her should to lean on. Every person in his life serves a purpose. So regardless of what they do to him, he keeps them around. He plays chess with the people in his life. Things move slow for him because he needs to figure out all the moves ahead of time. 

In the realm of ex-girlfriends of his... We were together since we were young, so the ones that came before me are long gone. But since our divorce, he has dated many. I am pretty certain he still keeps in contact with his OW even though he claims to hate her (they were never together even though she thought that would be the outcome when I divorced him). He has a live in girlfriend, but he often visits his ex-girlfriend (she lives a plane ride away and he stays AT HER HOUSE). There is another ex girlfriend that is around quite often as well. 

My ex-husband might be an extreme example. He is a very successful business man and high on the psychopath spectrum (diagnosed by a psychiatrist), but it is extremely easy for him to fool someone. I will never forget the devastation when the reality hit for me. And I lived it for decades. So... I (and other people here) can understand where you might fall for these types of manipulation, too. We also know the devastation of getting hit with the truth. Many are not here to bash because of the moral dilemma, we are here to provide cautionary tales. 

I am not a low IQ person either. I was fooled.  

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Having been through some changes myself, I understand people change over time. What we see is your change has been rapid (especially given the incredible differences you have just described in the span of 5 years) and the fact all the change is centered around this one man. Add the fact that he is married and not looking to leave his marriage, and the change you describe seems extreme, to say the least. And it’s odd you describe “true love” as causing this change. Every adult knows love is an incredible feeling, but not every love feeling is destined to end in marriage, kids, or forever togetherness. You have a very teenage view of relationships which is not serving you well.

Ah I didn't explain this well - many of the changes that I mentioned above were bound to happen anyway, if you exclude the relationship stuff - I was going through a major life transition anyway and he happened to be there (and admittedly made my life much better, but most things would have happened anyway).

The velocity of change is different of course for different people or even within the life of the same person. I just tried to explain that I didn't "trap" him intentionally and now revealing my true self to him. Just my life goals changed over time.

Whether he will change his goals - who knows. All I know in the current moment of time our goals are (likely) misaligned (although he didn't ever say that, quite the opposite - both you and I are inferring this from his lack of actions). But I see myself being with him for the long haul, within limits... and tat's why I tolerate this misalignment. I don't think I will tolerate it for over an year, unless my own goals/aspirations shift.

[TamBuktu]

8 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

Hindsight is a tricky thing, but yes, absolutely, he manipulative me our entire marriage. We were together for 20 years. There were some simple things that I realized in the moment (or rather a few moments later). For instance, he would want to do one thing, I would want to do another. We would talk it out to come to compromise. I would walk away feeling ok that we compromised and we both got what we want. Later, I would realize that no, he got what he wanted, and I didn't get anything. But he worded things, talked in vague terms, twisted things just enough, added such sweet terms, that it all felt like I got exactly what I wanted...

As far as was there signs? Yes, there was. His phone habits changed. He would normally just leave it laying around, and I noticed that it just stayed in his pocket. I actually asked him about it (lol @ me for ever thinking that a cheating man would actually be honest and say, "Yeah, I'm cheating on you, that's why). I thought he would have an explanation that would make me feel better. And of course, it was something like, "Oh, I didn't even realize I was doing that. Oh gosh, honey, I am SO SORRY that this has caused you so much stress and anxiety. I would never do anything to hurt you or our family. God, I love you so much." 

For instance, there was a lady who he had business dealings with. He called her names like fat pig, etc. He hated her from what he has told me (again, who knows the truth). He would talk so much crap about her. But then when she would call, you would think she hung the moon. When I asked why he talked so much crap about her, but buttered her up... he said because she controlled his business and so he needed her to absolutely love him. He would find out when she had bad meetings with her boss, so that he could specifically call her and  be her should to lean on. Every person in his life serves a purpose. So regardless of what they do to him, he keeps them around. He plays chess with the people in his life. Things move slow for him because he needs to figure out all the moves ahead of time. 

In the realm of ex-girlfriends of his... We were together since we were young, so the ones that came before me are long gone. But since our divorce, he has dated many. I am pretty certain he still keeps in contact with his OW even though he claims to hate her (they were never together even though she thought that would be the outcome when I divorced him). He has a live in girlfriend, but he often visits his ex-girlfriend (she lives a plane ride away and he stays AT HER HOUSE). There is another ex girlfriend that is around quite often as well. 

My ex-husband might be an extreme example. He is a very successful business man and high on the psychopath spectrum (diagnosed by a psychiatrist), but it is extremely easy for him to fool someone. I will never forget the devastation when the reality hit for me. And I lived it for decades. So... I (and other people here) can understand where you might fall for these types of manipulation, too. We also know the devastation of getting hit with the truth. Many are not here to bash because of the moral dilemma, we are here to provide cautionary tales. 

I am not a low IQ person either. I was fooled.  

Thank you so much for sharing. That's scary and very real scenario that it's good to be on guard on, even if it's not that extreme in our case to my perception..
"Every person in his life serves a purpose." - that's what stood out to me most. Lots of food for thought.

[BaileyB]

People grow and change, yes. But they don’t fundamentally change who they are. If he is a passive, let life happen to him/does things on his own time, conflict avoidant/never ended a job or a relationship in his life, 50 year old childless bachelor who does not communicate well in relationships, a passive aggressive cheater who has no problem lying to his wife for years and misleading you about his intentions - that doesn’t change. You are expecting this mountain to move - it simply won’t. His personality is not going to change at 50 years old, despite the coaching you try to do, the support and encouragement you offer, the ego-stokes you provide that will focus on his strengths while avoiding his weakness… His fundamental personality will not change - 

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[LynneVicious]

Tam,

If you really think about it, do you want this extreme complicated relationship in your life? If it’s complicated now, it will only get more complicated later. 

Does not a small part inside you wish for a more simple, conventional rear ion ship given Your goals?

[BaileyB]

11 minutes ago, LynneVicious said:

Tam,

If you really think about it, do you want this extreme complicated relationship in your life? If it’s complicated now, it will only get more complicated later. 

Does not a small part inside you wish for a more simple, conventional relationship given Your goals?

Exactly, life really shouldn’t be this hard. Relationships that are filled with drama tend to be very unhealthy relationships. And while you may feel peace within your relationship Tam, the drama surrounds you. It blocks your path to future happiness. And for those reasons, it is unhealthy and unlikely to bring you true and lasting happiness…

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

13 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Exactly, life really shouldn’t be this hard. Relationships that are filled with drama tend to be very unhealthy relationships. And while you may feel peace within your relationship Tam, the drama surrounds you. It blocks your path to future happiness. And for those reasons, it is unhealthy and unlikely to bring you true and lasting happiness…

I’m concerned that the pursuit and the goal of getting this man as the “prize” is distracting Tam from the letdown she will surely face afterwards. There is no happily ever after where his past disappears and they walk off into the sunset. His messes will still be all around them. 

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I don't see it this way. People change over time, I surely did.

Yes but have you heard the saying "Women marry a man hoping they can change him but; Men marry a woman they never want to change".  So as you can see you've got it backwards.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

People change.

The most important question Tam - does he feel the need to change? Or, is he happy with the person that he is right now? Is he content with his life?

The fundamental truth related to change is that people change only when THEY see a need to change. What has he said or done (aside from complaining about his marriage) that indicates to you this is a man who wants to change his way of being and make major changes to his life?

[stillafool]

In 5 years of knowing him, the one thing that hasn't changed or evolved is his desire to not divorce his wife and be with you.   That's pretty telling about your little affair.

[Starswillshine]

46 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Thank you so much for sharing. That's scary and very real scenario that it's good to be on guard on, even if it's not that extreme in our case to my perception..
"Every person in his life serves a purpose." - that's what stood out to me most. Lots of food for thought.

It is sad that he views people this way, but it is common for people like him to only use people. 

I provided him a companion, a teammate, someone who was fully in his corner, someone he could call and celebrate his wins and cry about his losses. But also, I gave him the opportunity to show to the world that he was a good, wholesome, family man. We have a large family, and he would have been happy for more. Because who would question a man who has this many children, of course he must be a great provider, father, and husband. But the truth is very dark. It took a long time for me to see it. Of course, there were signs, but until you are hit with the truth of it all, it is easy to brush all those little, tiny things away. If I felt stressed over something he did, he would get on his knees and cry to me about how he feels so horrible about the position he put me in. Of course, he never talked in specifics about anything. We would have discussions about important things that would last for HOURS, and I would walk away feeling like we still did not ever get to a conclusion. He was a master at changing subjects. He also had a way of turning everything around onto me. But not in the traditional abusive, mean way one might think. It was always done kindly and with lots of emotion. He could have created the perfect picture of gaslighting. I still, to this day, sometimes can forget who he truly is while in conversation with him. Then get off the phone (after 2 hour conversation that he wanted to have to discuss some upcoming kid event/situation) and think... hell, I just was like a best friend to him, wth? 

But in the aftermath of D-Day and all the other crap, there were moments I was afraid of my life. And it was devastating because in 20 years, I would have never figured him to be a man capable of such things. 

[mark clemson]

19 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Yes. I have a fear. That he will agree on having kids (as he is open to it even right now), we’ll move forward with the plan, he’ll get scared and back off.

I know that’s catastrophic thinking but it’s understandable why I am worried, I hope.

It's one possibility among several so certainly something to keep in mind.

Plenty of "normal" relationships have sudden changes (or gradual ones that eventually come to a head) so the risk of having the rug pulled out from under you is there in ANY relationship. I mean - that's what happened to all these folks advising you who suddenly found out they were being cheated on, right. Not to mention illness, injury, major job loss, decisions to dramatically change lifestyles, etc, etc. Or simply sudden divorces/breakups. Risk comes with the game, there is no avoiding it.

That said, do you want to bet ALL your cards on a person who's married and may never leave? Probably not. I do not have skin in the game in that it is not particularly triggering for me if you "win" and get him to leave his wife. However, even so I can't in good conscience advise to you to assume you'll get what you want here. The chance he'll leave is there, but based on the prevailing understanding it's probably low - maybe 1/20 or perhaps a bit higher if he's genuinely unhappy. But still quite low.

Edited November 16, 2021 by mark clemson

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

People grow and change, yes. But they don’t fundamentally change who they are. If he is a passive, let life happen to him/does things on his own time, conflict avoidant/never ended a job or a relationship in his life, 50 year old childless bachelor who does not communicate well in relationships, a passive aggressive cheater who has no problem lying to his wife for years and misleading you about his intentions - that doesn’t change. You are expecting this mountain to move - it simply won’t. His personality is not going to change at 50 years old, despite the coaching you try to do, the support and encouragement you offer, the ego-stokes you provide that will focus on his strengths while avoiding his weakness… His fundamental personality will not change - 

That's right. Personality flaws and strengths are what they are, only thing that can change are priorities, goals etc.

I feel like I misrepresented him here. It's just because of the nature of the discussion - I don't go into parts that feel right in extreme detail.

As someone figured earlier - I have been in my fair share of manipulative, abusive situations with coworkers, friends, family. He's NOT an abuser - but I had the opportunity to know a few. My trust to him didn't come quickly -that's why I am repeating myself marriage or kids weren't even a thought of mine in the first years (same thing with any previous relationship - I take my time because I've been burnt pretty bad).

Of course he can be a master manipulator like Starswillshine ex - my gut is telling me otherwise though. I still trust him with my eyes open so to speak. i don't see someone who is playing a master plan - I see someone who is almost seeking help by the circumstances - because that's the best he thinks he can do. In any case, if I am wrong, I will learn this sooner than later.

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, LynneVicious said:

Tam,

If you really think about it, do you want this extreme complicated relationship in your life? If it’s complicated now, it will only get more complicated later. 

Does not a small part inside you wish for a more simple, conventional rear ion ship given Your goals?

I have to think about this. I have always achieved my dreams the "hard way".. maybe that's how I am conditioned.

The other thing is - it sounds like a drama and hardships, it's nothing like this in real life. We "click" very well on day to day level and it's very hard for me to overlook that.

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

The most important question Tam - does he feel the need to change? Or, is he happy with the person that he is right now? Is he content with his life?

The fundamental truth related to change is that people change only when THEY see a need to change. What has he said or done (aside from complaining about his marriage) that indicates to you this is a man who wants to change his way of being and make major changes to his life?

There has been a gradual change that I noticed over time. From the time we spend together, to level of (emotional) intimacy etc.

To clarify also - he is not a complainer. I haven't heard him complain once unless I specifically asked and even then he'll say something abstract and leave it at that.

Is he content with his life? Only he can answer that. If someone asks him directly his answer will be vague "it is what it is" or similar. I think he is doing his soul searching.

I have no idea how to make him open up. It will solve 90% of my dilemmas.

[TamBuktu]

54 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

It's one possibility among several so certainly something to keep in mind.

Plenty of "normal" relationships have sudden changes (or gradual ones that eventually come to a head) so the risk of having the rug pulled out from under you is there in ANY relationship. I mean - that's what happened to all these folks advising you who suddenly found out they were being cheated on, right. Not to mention illness, injury, major job loss, decisions to dramatically change lifestyles, etc, etc. Or simply sudden divorces/breakups. Risk comes with the game, there is no avoiding it.

That said, do you want to bet ALL your cards on a person who's married and may never leave? Probably not. I do not have skin in the game in that it is not particularly triggering for me if you "win" and get him to leave his wife. However, even so I can't in good conscience advise to you to assume you'll get what you want here. The chance he'll leave is there, but based on the prevailing understanding it's probably low - maybe 1/20 or perhaps a bit higher if he's genuinely unhappy. But still quite low.

Yes. I very much resonate with this opinion.

I went to therapy years back regarding a different relationship and that's what they broke it down to - in the face of sudden change, people frequently reevaluate and change their minds.

In the current case, each of us has experienced several major life changes during our time together. Definitely more on my end, but on his end as well. This gives me some level of confidence because I've seen how he responds to stress. But also - the bottom line for him was - let life take it's course, whereas for me was - let me make the change. I think this personality clash is why we have the existing problems and also why we complement each other so well.

Now - I don't put ALL my cards on him. Except in the relationship realm, I lead my life independently and I'm pretty much where I want to be. Having kids is the only thing that I have "relying" on him, and even that I have secured (by storing dozens of unfertilized eggs) in case things go south.

In other words - I would love to be with him, but my life will go on just fine if there is a change in the plan. And therefore the lack of sense of real urgency and enjoy things as is for a long time.

[mark clemson]

23 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Now - I don't put ALL my cards on him. Except in the relationship realm, I lead my life independently and I'm pretty much where I want to be. Having kids is the only thing that I have "relying" on him, and even that I have secured (by storing dozens of unfertilized eggs) in case things go south.

Wise IMO...

[RebeccaR]

23 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

And therefore the lack of sense of real urgency and enjoy things as is for a long time.

You said earlier today that your relationship situation is urgent and you have a 1 year timeline. Which statement did you really mean?