It's complicated - insight needed

[stillafool]

22 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Save your frozen ova, but at least find a decent single man for yourself so you can have a  happy life not hiding in the shadows of this guys life.

Yes but if that guy is decent he may not want a woman who has no problem being in an affair with a MM.  He may want a decent woman.

OP, why don't you talk to his wife and bring all of this out into the open so you will know what is really true and what is not.  This will force him to make a decision.

[vla1120]

21 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Issue: He isn't initiating a divorce, He never terminated a relationship in his life.

Sooo, he's sitting around waiting for his wife to initiate a divorce so he can be with you?  Are you sure you want to have children with a man who does not have courage to end one marriage so he can enter into a marriage and have children with the woman he supposedly really loves? If he won't initiate the divorce, then I believe it is because he has no intention of leaving his wife. This sounds like a hot mess (for you.)

Edited October 29, 2021 by vla1120

[elaine567]

OK so he is forty nine going on fifty...At forty you may have had a chance.

Fifty year old guys don't tend to leave. Fifty year old guys don't really want kids to complicate their retirement.
Fifty year old guys have OWs as their wife doesn't want sex and they lust after younger women.
Fifty year old guys and nappies and screaming, toddlers and tantrums, exhaustion and no sex are not a match.  

This is not a guy who has had a brood of his own, he has been as free as a bird, he is not going to take to fatherhood well.
Add in the other complications, you could waste quite a lot of your fertile life with this guy to no benefit to yourself.. 

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

Nice of you both to play along. You have both been kind enough to play your parts without giving him any stress or conflict. As I said above, he has things as he wants right now… I can imagine that life is pretty good for him - 

Except having to deal with 2 demanding women day in and day out. Ok, jokes aside.. Your other post resonated well - been there done that with the intern job so getting the analogy close to heart.

Pieces of the puzzle:

MM invested quite a lot already if for him to be just play. We are talking years and some significant hardships.

Goal is to avoid petty conflict - no relationship thrives on that affiar or otherwise - not to make his life simple.

Ultimatum was to walk away to give space for him to decide, where is the manipulation? Not doing this anyway, for now.

"the decision to stay or go depends on whether you love this man more than you love yourself. " this hits heart... Who do we love more, ourselves or our true love ? 

" you made a poor choice in this married man" yes, been there done that with unavailable single men too. Bottom line is unavailable. Glimpse of hope: he is very family oriented and domestic besides how it looks like from the side. 

[TamBuktu]

52 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Yes but if that guy is decent he may not want a woman who has no problem being in an affair with a MM.  He may want a decent woman.

OP, why don't you talk to his wife and bring all of this out into the open so you will know what is really true and what is not.  This will force him to make a decision.

You see the irony in this statement don't you..

Yes, that's in the works. How to make it the least hurtful for all 3 sides?

[TamBuktu]

30 minutes ago, vla1120 said:

Sooo, he's sitting around waiting for his wife to initiate a divorce so he can be with you?  Are you sure you want to have children with a man who does not have courage to end one marriage so he can enter into a marriage and have children with the woman he supposedly really loves? If he won't initiate the divorce, then I believe it is because he has no intention of leaving his wife. This sounds like a hot mess (for you.)

Hot mess yes.
Having flaws yes. Who doesn't have flaws though? Do we know his whole life story to judge?

[stillafool]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

How to make it the least hurtful for all 3 sides?

Sometimes it takes pain to gain so tell her the truth and let the chips fall where they may.

[vla1120]

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Hot mess yes.
Having flaws yes. Who doesn't have flaws though? Do we know his whole life story to judge?

I only know what you have told me, which is that he is in a marriage he supposedly wants out of. His wife knows about you. But he's not willing to divorce her and marry you (though he wants children with you.) That's all I know and it doesn't make sense to me.

Edited October 29, 2021 by vla1120

[TamBuktu]

20 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

OK so he is forty nine going on fifty...At forty you may have had a chance.

Fifty year old guys don't tend to leave. Fifty year old guys don't really want kids to complicate their retirement.
Fifty year old guys have OWs as their wife doesn't want sex and they lust after younger women.
Fifty year old guys and nappies and screaming, toddlers and tantrums, exhaustion and no sex are not a match.  

This is not a guy who has had a brood of his own, he has been as free as a bird, he is not going to take to fatherhood well.
Add in the other complications, you could waste quite a lot of your fertile life with this guy to no benefit to yourself.. 

Right. Haven't walked in his shoes nor in this age range, is that so? Older guys with no kids are fully opposed to them?? Are we hitting a point here fertility conversations were out of scope and he just did it for AP sake?

He has raised kids. Not his (not hers either, long story) he was in similar situation sans the marriage in his 20s and 30s; he wanted kids he couldn't have them with his partner/s for age reasons.. And picked love over kids.... Stupid right?

He's kind of an oddball always lusted over (much) older ladies. God knows why, all we know is the affair is not for youth/sex. No doubt here.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, vla1120 said:

I only know what you have told me, which is that he is in a marriage he supposedly wants out of. His wife knows about you. But he's not willing to divorce her and marry you. That's all I know and it doesn't make sense to me.

RIght. Same. Makes no sense. What is missing here?

That's why the shoutout for people that lived through similar situations.

[Pumpernickel]

Just a few things (other than your posts are quite hard to read, as they are more bullet list style and have no text flow, but I'll try anyway):

Do not get in touch with the wife directly, @TamBuktu – It will make nobody's life better, especially not yours. It will also harm your relationship.

There's no statistical evidence that I know of that would make it more likely for a 40-year old to divorce his wife than a 50-year old. 50-year-olds divorce, too, so do 60-year-olds & men in their 70s, and yes, it's the women who file more than the guys do (there's statistical evidence for that), but mine did, and he was 50.

I don't like the way you describe your MM. He sounds awfully passive with some mom issues. Why are you attracted to that?   

Edited October 29, 2021 by Pumpernickel

[stillafool]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

He's kind of an oddball always lusted over (much) older ladies.

Then he is still very attracted to his wife.  How do expect to get him to divorce her?  This is why you need to talk to her.  If he's in love with you, wants to be with you and she's aware that he cheats this shouldn't be a problem.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, Pumpernickel said:

Just a few things (other than your posts are quite hard to read, as they are more bullet list style and have no text flow, but I'll try anyway):

Do not get in touch with the wife directly, @TamBuktu – It will make nobody's life better, especially not yours. It will also harm your relationship.

There's no statistical evidence that I know of that would make it more likely for a 40-year old to divorce his wife than a 50-year old. 50-year-olds divorce, too, so do 60-year-olds & men in their 70s, and yes, it's the women who file more than the guys do (there's statistical evidence for that), but mine did, and he was 50.

I don't like the way you describe your MM. He sounds awfully passive. Why are you attracted to that?   

Sorry, I was just trying to be factual and detached, and therefore the bullet point style.
The worry here is whether the missing piece of the puzzle is his hesitation to start a family in his late 40s/early 40s regardless of the fact he says he wants it. Maybe that's holding him back of pulling the trigger? 
And yes, he's passive. It is not the most attractive quality however he has so many other attractive qualities and it makes him who he is. I mean the attraction is not to his passivity but despite it.

COuld you please elaborate a bit on your story? Did you end up marrying him?

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Then he is still very attracted to his wife.  How do expect to get him to divorce her?  This is why you need to talk to her.  If he's in love with you, wants to be with you and she's aware that he cheats this shouldn't be a problem.

Could be... If you are attracted to readheads, would you be attracted to all readheads? All I'm saying is he's not after the you.
God knows what exactly she thinks - therefore the need of conversation but how not to be obnoxious about it...

 

[stillafool]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If you are attracted to readheads, would you be attracted to all readheads?

No, but if I loved a redhead enough to marry him, that would be the one I was attracted to.  Love is more than looks so he must have loved her as a person too and that is why he married her.

[vla1120]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

RIght. Same. Makes no sense. What is missing here?

That's why the shoutout for people that lived through similar situations.

I think the key point is concerning why he has never ended a relationship. I understand not wanting to hurt someone, but by staying with her and dragging his feet on starting a life and having children with you, he's hurting you. Is it because he lives with her and has to see her everyday? Your option would be to have a child with him in the midst of his current circumstances, but it sounds like that is not what you want to do (understandably.) What reasoning does he give for not wanting to end his marriage?

[Wiseman2]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

The worry here is whether the missing piece of the puzzle is his hesitation to start a family in his late 40s/early 40s regardless of the fact he says he wants it. 

Well he donated his sperm for the embryo so it seems the "hesitation" is he won't divorce his wife and goes home to her every night. It's really not a mystery. You fell for a married man who won't divorce and goes home to his wife every night.

[TamBuktu]

9 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Well he donated his sperm for the embryo so it seems the "hesitation" is he won't divorce his wife and goes home to her every night. It's really not a mystery. You fell for a married man who won't divorce and goes home to his wife every night.

I mean legally isn't that what every lawyer will advice before divorce is final anyway?

[TamBuktu]

11 minutes ago, stillafool said:

No, but if I loved a redhead enough to marry him, that would be the one I was attracted to.  Love is more than looks so he must have loved her as a person too and that is why he married her.

For sure, of course. Is the love still going or whether there was a disappointment.. Who knows, maybe both?

[TamBuktu]

11 minutes ago, vla1120 said:

I think the key point is concerning why he has never ended a relationship. I understand not wanting to hurt someone, but by staying with her and dragging his feet on starting a life and having children with you, he's hurting you. Is it because he lives with her and has to see her everyday? Your option would be to have a child with him in the midst of his current circumstances, but it sounds like that is not what you want to do (understandably.) What reasoning does he give for not wanting to end his marriage?

AP+MM see each other every day. MM and wife see each other every day too. 

Maybe fear? Maybe gaslighting ("you're not worth another woman I compromised with you" "you are too old to start over" - just inferring conversations)? Maybe lack of willpower? Lack of confidence?

Reason given in the very very rarely anything mentioned: "it is a nightmare I don't know how to get out of, it's not easy". I mean.. we all know it's not, haha
 

[Wiseman2]

Just now, TamBuktu said:

I mean legally isn't that what every lawyer will advice before divorce is final anyway?

Are you married? What lawyer do you mean? He has not contacted one because he prefers the security of going home to his wife. It's unclear what is meant by these cryptic rhetorical difficult to understand responses. Are you using translation software from another language? No offense but sometimes your responses seem to have nothing to do with the quoted passage.

[RebeccaR]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

"it is a nightmare I don't know how to get out of, it's not easy".

It’s much less difficult when there are no minor children involved, yet he’s still finding it a “nightmare”? Do they have a shared business or significant assets she has claim to? Otherwise he’s just not willing to lift a finger to do it.

[elaine567]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

She... knows he's elsewhere every evening 

But he was before affair too - just used different reasons - work, friends, to never go home before bedtime - so no change for them in that sense

Ok so is it possible she doesn't actually know about the affair?
What proof do you have that she knows?
 

[Pumpernickel]

9 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

What proof do you have that she knows?

Good point.

However, I remember reading somewhere that OP has met her MM's family? Which doesn't necessarily mean that the BW knows, but it's an interesting aspect as well.

[RebeccaR]

12 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Ok so is it possible she doesn't actually know about the affair?
What proof do you have that she knows?
 

I think to OP, the fact he’s never home in the evenings is proof that BS doesn’t care where he is. The second statement doesn’t follow from the first.

OP, I think you know all the red flags. To me, the main one is that a 49 year old man who never ended a relationship in his life is not going to start now.

Edited October 29, 2021 by RebeccaR
Typo