It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

This, or he just refuses to speak with you because he does not want to have the conversation. He does not plan to divorce. He likes things as they are now. From his perspective, there is nothing to discuss.

Bailey please hear me on this.

Of course he likes the things as they are now. Who wouldn’t? I like them too.

It’s all about cost vs benefit. I can picture how better the life would be on the other side. He, at this point of time, likely cannot. That’s the only reason I have to talk to him.

That’s not set in stone on either end- it’s an ever evolving process.

Yes he’s passive and yes he’s comfortable. Both of these are real but I don’t see them as deal breakers.. for the time being.

[BaileyB]

 

13 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It’s all about cost vs benefit. I can picture how better the life would be on the other side. He, at this point of time, likely cannot. That’s the only reason I have to talk to him.

In the face of uncertainty and anxiety, it’s like you have doubled down on your need to rationalize and control. This is little more than a fantastical rationalization.

Quote

I’ve found the following strategy for a conversation
1)acknowledge responsibility (i.e. delaying talking about it)
2)set a goal (i.e. plan out the divorce)
3)listen and validate (i.e. hear his reasoning)
4)restate goal and outcome (reiterate what the final outcome will be: marriage, family etc)

This isn’t a plan for conversation, it’s solution focused coaching. This isn’t a relationship. It’s not how relationship partners communicate. You have a goal and you are going to help him to get there -

And your plan above, well it’s little more than a way for you to take control of a uncertain situation of which you have absolutely no control. In your mind, he is a passive man who requires your assistance to leave his marriage because only you can see what’s on the other side. When in truth, you’ve rationalized a plan that is little more than an attempt to manipulate him into making the decision that YOU want - 

Edited November 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

 

In the face of uncertainty and anxiety, it’s like you have doubled down on your need to rationalize and control. This is little more than a fantastical rationalization.

This isn’t a plan for conversation, it’s solution focused coaching. This isn’t a relationship. It’s not how relationship partners communicate. You have a goal and you are going to help him to get there -

And your plan above, well it’s little more than a way for you to take control of a uncertain situation of which you have absolutely no control. In your mind, he is a passive man who requires your assistance to leave his marriage because only you can see what’s on the other side. When in truth, you’ve rationalized a plan that is little more than an attempt to manipulate him into making the decision that YOU want - 

What’s wrong with using coaching approach?

Call it manipulation if you want, he’s not the type to get manipulated easy anyway so he’s safe  

At least I can sleep well knowing I exhausted my options. If he wants to do it, my efforts will help. If he doesn’t, he won’t do it anyway.

Btw the day is starting good, praying we stay that way.

 

[BaileyB]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

What’s wrong with using coaching approach?

You want to be his wife, not his therapist. 

Quote

he’s not the type to get manipulated easy anyway

No, he apparently does exactly what he wants - no questions asked, no discussion. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

You want to be his wife, not his therapist. 

No, he apparently does exactly what he wants - no questions asked, no discussion. 

Agreed on both.

Passive is just another face of stubborn.

The coaching is for myself (how to structure conversations)

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

The coaching is for myself (how to structure conversations)

No, the coaching is for him. You have a goal, and you are trying to figure out how to present yourself and communicate with the man such that he will get on board and you will achieve your goal. 

My question is - who wants a man that you have to “coach” to be with you? A man who “stubbornly” refuses to do what is required to leave his marriage?

One observation - take it for what it’s worth, the words of a stranger on the internet. When you posted last night, it was the first time that I felt you were honest with us and honest with yourself. This morning, you have retreated back into your head - back to your rationalizations, your planning/coaching, your fantasy. I think, as was said above, you are not yet ready to face the reality of the situation and as such, you are attempting again to control what you can control. That means, planning, rationalizing, etc… There is a definite change of tone this morning, a resolution to focus once again on your goal and get this back on track…

And I would offer once again, in a healthy relationship in which both partners are committed to the relationship - there is no need to do this. You do this because it is your way of coping with the fact that this is a very one sided relationship and you have no control and no way to actually get what you want. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[Wiseman2]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Passive is just another face of stubborn. The coaching is for myself (how to structure conversations)

Absolutely true. He's stubborn about not divorcing, he has no incentive to.

It doesn't matter how much you parse your words. The answer is the same.

The unfortunate part is that you became invested in him and are hoping for a future with him.

However the good news is you are still free to pursue your dreams of marriage and family because you are not exclusive.

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

No, the coaching is for him. You have a goal, and you are trying to figure out how to present yourself and communicate with the man such that he will get on board and you will achieve your goal. 

My question is - who wants a man that you have to “coach” to be with you? A man who “stubbornly” refuses to do what is required to leave his marriage?

One observation - take it for what it’s worth, the words of a stranger on the internet. When you posted last night, it was the first time that I felt you were honest with us and honest with yourself. This morning, you have retreated back into your head - back to your rationalizations, your planning/coaching, your fantasy. I think, as was said above, you are not yet ready to face the reality of the situation and as such, you are attempting again to control what you can control. That means, planning, rationalizing, etc… There is a definite change of tone this morning, a resolution to focus once again on your goal and get this back on track…

And I would offer once again, in a healthy relationship in which both partners are committed to the relationship - there is no need to do this. You do this because it is your way of coping with the fact that this is a very one sided relationship and you have no control and no way to actually get what you want. 

The truth is last night I was posting from a very low point very shortly after I lost my composure and was scared to death I might lose him.
This was an irrational thought but it took me a night to get back in my element..

But you have good points: the goal shouldn’t be the final destination but understanding where he’s coming from and what he really wants.

To get to there I need a conversation strategy, that’s all. I’m reading to find one that resonates with me, the one that I posted above was just an idea.

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

But you have good points: the goal shouldn’t be the final destination but understanding where he’s coming from and what he really wants.

That wasn’t my point. 
 

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Absolutely true. He's stubborn about not divorcing, he has no incentive to.

It doesn't matter how much you parse your words. The answer is the same.

The unfortunate part is that you became invested in him and are hoping for a future with him.

However the good news is you are still free to pursue your dreams of marriage and family because you are not exclusive.

I don’t know why you said we are not exclusive- I am exclusive with him on any level- sexual, emotional, mental.

I’ll take the opportunity to re-phrase the above: he is stubborn to change. The divorce change is just one element that actually hasn’t even been brought up (even indirectly) until exactly 14 days ago. So I’m assuming he has a lot to catch up before making his decision, being staying or leaving the situation.

I just have to focus otherwise I’d cry another night which is neither healthy for anyone involved nor is bringing us close to a resolution.

 

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

That wasn’t my point. 
 

Ok, I misunderstood then. I thought your point is I’m dragging him to a goal (divorce) and I rephrased the goal (understanding his position).

I shall reiterate I never mentioned divorce, directly or indirectly, until 2 exactly weeks ago. Not sure where the coercion idea comes from.

[Wiseman2]

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I don’t know why you said we are not exclusive

He's married to someone else. By 'exclusive', I mean the literal meaning of only seeing and being with each other, which is impossible with a married person.

 However you can work on him and still date others because after all, he goes home to a wife every night, so you owe him nothing.

 It seems like you "came for insight", but the harsh reality he presents hurts you.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Wiseman2

[BaileyB]

20 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

But you have good points: the goal shouldn’t be the final destination but understanding where he’s coming from and what he really wants.

Kindly, you have twisted my words to fit your plan. 

My point above was that you shouldn’t have to coach or cajole a grown man into divorcing his wife and choosing you as a relationship partner. You shouldn’t have to plan how you present yourself, communicate with him, listen and understand his fears such that you can begin to work to alleviate them with the goal of achieving your plan. This is not a relationship. This is a counsellor. A parent. A boss goal setting with an employee and developing a plan to assist the employee to grow and achieve -

You can work to understand what he really feels and wants and it will be to no avail - if he is not prepared to change his marital/living situation. Last night, I asked you what he has done to demonstrate that he is prepared to make a change and you said nothing, that’s why you had lost your composure twice this week. 

You can’t solve this by being a better partner - by listening more and keeping your expectations in check. He will simply take advantage of your generosity in much the same way that he has done for the past three years. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

He's married to someone else. By 'exclusive', I mean the literal meaning of only seeing and being with each other, which is impossible with a married person.

 However you can work on him and still date others because after all, he goes home to a wife every night, so you owe him nothing.

 It seems like you "came for insight", but the harsh reality he presents hurts you.

Ah ok. I see what you mean. 

The way how I see it: his (or anyone else's) actions shouldn't cloud my moral judgement. I know it sounds ironic considering the entirety of the situation, but from my end I value monogamy too much to even contemplate dating someone else in parallel. To me, this in not something I own him, I own it to myself to keep my dignity.

Insights hurt yes, I'd rather process them this way (as well as with friends, family), rather then confronting him before my thoughts are fully crystalized. And again the irony - that's exactly what I did. Twice.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Kindly, you have twisted my words to fit your plan. 

My point above was that you shouldn’t have to coach or cajole a grown man into divorcing his wife and choosing you as a relationship partner. You shouldn’t have to plan how you present yourself, communicate with him, listen and understand his fears such that you can begin to work to alleviate them with the goal of achieving your plan. This is not a relationship. This is a counsellor. A parent. A boss goal setting with an employee and developing a plan to assist the employee to grow and achieve -

You can work to understand what he really feels and wants and it will be to no avail - if he is not prepared to change his marital/living situation. Last night, I asked you what he has done to demonstrate that he is prepared to make a change and you said nothing, that’s why you had lost your composure twice this week. 

You can’t solve this by being a better partner - by listening more and keeping your expectations in check. He will simply take advantage of your generosity in much the same way that he has done for the past three years. 

You are trying desperately to control an uncertain situation over which you have no control. It is a battle between your rational and emotional brain. 

For whatever reason some people respond to asymmetrical relationship better but otherwise I agree with most.

My only goal today is to see how he will behave and respond after he had the chance to sleep over it. Maybe this will convince me you are right, I hope not haha.

[Wiseman2]

26 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I value monogamy too much.

Unfortunately he's a cheater, so he doesn't share your values.

[introverted1]

23 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

(Just to clarify - I want to stay with him; I don't think he wants to leave; I don't want to turn this into coercion - but I want my answers)

Your answers are in bold.

I've read all 35 pages of this and, frankly, there is nothing complicated here. Your story, much as I am sure it feels unique to you, has been played out time after time in this board. You are one of many OWs hoping her MM will decide to leave his marriage and be with her fulltime.

You use a lot of vague and obfuscating language to avoid the simple truth that this man knows full well you want him to divorce his wife and create a family with you. Never mind that you only articulated this 3 days ago; you've been seeing him for 3 years and have apparently already frozen embryos that he provided the material for. You've discussed becoming a family together.  Of course he knows what outcome you want. You just don't want to see/accept that he has been is content with things the way they are.

All this dancing around with words and careful planning of how to maneuver him into compliance with your goals is senseless:  he either wants what you want (and is prepared to act on it) or he doesn't. No amount of word-smithing will get him to do what he doesn't want to do.

Your choices are limited and clear:  Set a deadline for his divorce after which you will move on. You can tell him about it or not (I already hear you claiming you don't want to give an ultimatum). OR Continue with the status quo and stop agonizing about the right words to use to try to manipulate him into the outcome you desire.  The reality is that if he wanted to be with you the way you want to be with him, he'd have found a way to do so, and wouldn't need hints from you.  He's had 3 years to figure it out.

Edited November 14, 2021 by introverted1

[LynneVicious]

May I ask: You stated you would stay with him even if he chooses not to divorce his wife. Assuming that means you will not have the embryos implanted then because you not be married to him, no? 

So no children for you if he chooses not to divorce?

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, LynneVicious said:

May I ask: You stated you would stay with him even if he chooses not to divorce his wife. Assuming that means you will not have the embryos implanted then because you not be married to him, no? 

So no children for you if he chooses not to divorce?

Honestly- I don’t even consider that as being a possibility. To me the question is not if but when.

And talking about when… Yes, like introverted said it’s good to have a deadline. I have one. I have mentally set myself for one year more then I’d probably go to a different route. Most likely single motherhood, most likely with his children, but if that’s the path- he’ll never be involved not even meet them and I’d be very firm about it (I doubt he’ll object anyway if we get to that point).

But that’s absolutely my last resort. I hope with my entire being to never have to make this choice.

Introverted: I guess it’s unique to me, I read quite few other stories and never found a similar setup.. I haven’t stopped looking (for similar stories- estranged spouse never mentioned, family involvement etc). Of course the backbone is trivial.

 

 

[LynneVicious]

I think that’s the best choice, considering. If wanting children is more important, then you should make that happen. And it’s good that you’re acknowledging that maybe he won’t be involved. If it comes to that, your best bet is to be a truly single mom, without the drama that you’re in now. 

Or better yet, a stable relationship with an available man who you can become family with

[Wiseman2]

12 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Most likely single motherhood, most likely with his children

You could also have children naturally with a man who is loyal and loves you, perhaps that would be a better gene pool?.  But that takes time. 

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

You could also have children naturally with a man who is loyal and loves you, perhaps that would be a better gene pool?.  But that takes time. 

I’m fairly firm on the decision if we don’t make a family unit, I’ll do it alone and postpone dating for the time the kids are grown up. 

Only partner that I can envision doing this with is him. He doesn’t even know that lol, too much power in his court if I share. Joking but not quite.

[BaileyB]

31 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I have mentally set myself for one year more

I predict, having opened this Pandora’s box, you will not be able to go back to the blissful ignorance that you have previously enjoyed with this man. The frustration will grow into bitterness as you wait and watch for signs of progress… It will be a year of suffering - trying in vain to bend this man to your will… Waiting, watching, wondering…

Edited November 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

33 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Most likely single motherhood, most likely with his children, but if that’s the path- he’ll never be involved not even meet them and I’d be very firm about it

I think this would be your way of punishing him tbh since you say he dreams of fatherhood 

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I think this would be your way of punishing him tbh since you say he dreams of fatherhood 

Yes, unfortunately that’s what it boils down to.

Plus protecting my future children from a hot mess if she turns vindictive.