It's complicated - insight needed

[Starswillshine]

This guy signed away any parental rights to any future children you may have from those embryos. 

This does not sounds like the fantasy love story that you have built into your head. 

[elaine567]

The embryos are not really part of the love story.
They were produced out of medical necessity not love.
They are banked in case they are needed only.
This was not about, we are in love, we may need to postpone having children so we will produce some embryos.
That is not what happened.
 

[BaileyB]

It’s pretty inconsequential here. It does speak to his commitment and the fact that they do not share the same dreams/plan for the future. In a way, it proves what we have all been saying, that OP has created a fantasy vision of the future - one in which she visions marriage and babies with this man when in truth, he has yet to mention the word divorce or marriage and he has signed away his right to the embryos. 

[elaine567]

I think at about 3 years into a relationship many women start wondering about the future with men who have not expressed a desire to propose or outline a plan for going forward.
I don't think the OP is alone in that and it is not just an affair thing.
I also think it is quite common for women especially single women to see the affair as being the same as singles dating. He has a "gf", he will fall in love with me and ditch the gf and we will then be an "item".
BUT extra marital affairs don't tend to work like that. He has a wife, he will fall in love with me but he will not ditch the wife, and will continue seeing and sleeping with me anyway...

[ExpatInItaly]

56 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

This guy signed away any parental rights to any future children you may have from those embryos. 

Yeah, that's what stands out to me as well. This is why naming him as a beneficiary makes even less sense.

OP has said she doesn't plan to disucss this further here, and fair enough,  we don't know which came first - but there are so many bizarre incongruencies all over this.

[BaileyB]

The bottom line - it is difficult to comprehend how OP is dreaming of a marriage and children with a man who is married to another woman and has signed away his parental rights to these embryos. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

I skimmed through responses - again need to clarify some things (elaine has been my voice of reason in these past few response but here we go again). THis is the last time I am responding on the two topics below.

Fertility: About 10% of women under the age of 40 develop a condition called primary ovarian insufficiency (POI). It is completely asymptomatic but can be detected using anti mullerian hormone test in conjunction with antral follicle count. In patients that indeed show POI signs it might mean the fertility is going to be compromised sooner than average. Recommendations include freezing oocytes but in women with the aforementioned condition the quantity of retrievable oocytes is limited therefore multiple retrieval cycles are needed to ensure sufficient yield. Cost of each one is five figures and does not guarantee success - each oocyte has about 2-4% probability to result in live birth. Embryo preservation gives information upfront about the quality of the oocytes. Conditions like endometriosis, FragileX premutation and a slew of immunological factors that can cause POI can also compromise blastocyst development. Therefore growing the embryos to blastocyst stage is giving diagnostic information that oocytes alone cannot. Regardless if the people involved are married, dating or friends, the parental rights are generally signed to one or the other to avoid legal battles in the future. Considering the aforementioned cost of over 10,000 per procedure, and that does not involve ICSI and PGT costs it makes sense the person who pays the bill to own the rights. If you are to ask why it isn't insurance covered it is because insurance only kicks in if a infertility diagnosis is determined and POI on it's own is not that.

Nobody needed to read the above, correct? Well that's exactly why I didn't write it earlier.

On the legal aspects - well I don't have a degree in that field but I have friends and family who do so lets just leave it at that. 

Case closed on estate planning and fertility cryopreservation, getting back on topic. I'm seeking a relationship advice here, not medical or legal.

[TamBuktu]

53 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I think at about 3 years into a relationship many women start wondering about the future with men who have not expressed a desire to propose or outline a plan for going forward.
I don't think the OP is alone in that and it is not just an affair thing.
I also think it is quite common for women especially single women to see the affair as being the same as singles dating. He has a "gf", he will fall in love with me and ditch the gf and we will then be an "item".
BUT extra marital affairs don't tend to work like that. He has a wife, he will fall in love with me but he will not ditch the wife, and will continue seeing and sleeping with me anyway...

Exactly on point. In any relationship I wouldn't have had the thought about engagement until 3-4 years in. And this one is no exception. I never lied to him about it, it wasn't on my mind previously because of exactly that reason.

Now, I had a bit of an emotional conversation with him and he wasn't dismissive nor avoidant. He expressed fears from the BW family if they found out. He expressed insecurities and also certain things that I would not share here but to cut the long story short, we can summarize it to "crime and punishment" case. Whether his fear is valid or not, I could not know. IS it even okay to ask further questions or shall I get my breaks on for a little bit (or longer)?

As someone sarcastically added above, I might not be the most experienced person in relationship sense. Yet I have enough experience to know whether someone is genuine or not and he is. But I think most of what he is worried about is in his head. And I really really don't know how to tell him that without being condescending or dismissive.

[Starswillshine]

21 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yet I have enough experience to know whether someone is genuine or not and he is.

Says nearly every single OW on this site. And most BS prior to knowing their spouse was cheating... 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

But I think most of what he is worried about is in his head.

And rightly so - don’t you think? There are HUGE barriers to you ever finding your happily ever after with this man.

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

In any relationship I wouldn't have had the thought about engagement until 3-4 years in. And this one is no exception.

All well and good, if he was single. Considering that the man is married to another woman, this should have been one of your first thoughts. This is the very definition of “exception.” You are a woman dating a married man with the expectations of a woman dating a single man. Engagement is not an option if he is married to another woman. 

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

to cut the long story short, we can summarize it to "crime and punishment" case.

What in the world are you talking about? Does he not want to divorce and get with you because his wife and his family will “punish” him for being unfaithful. If that is his concern, it is a valid concern. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Now, I had a bit of an emotional conversation with him and he wasn't dismissive nor avoidant. He expressed fears from the BW family if they found out. He expressed insecurities and also certain things that I would not share here but to cut the long story short, we can summarize it to "crime and punishment" case. Whether his fear is valid or not, I could not know. IS it even okay to ask further questions or shall I get my breaks on for a little bit (or longer)?

Your brakes have been on for a long time already.
Of course his wife's family are going to be upset, why wouldn't they be?
The consequences of that  I guess he is implying would be violent is that correct?.

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

And rightly so - don’t you think? There are HUGE barriers to you ever finding your happily ever after with this man.

All well and good, if he was single. Considering that the man is married to another woman, this should have been one of your first thoughts. This is the very definition of “exception.” You are a woman dating a married man with the expectations of a woman dating a single man. 

What in the world are you talking about? Does he not want to divorce and get with you because his wife and his family will “punish” him for being unfaithful. If that is his concern, it is a valid concern. 

But I know that. I couldn't possibly know I'll fall in love with him and desire future with him after an year or two of dating. At his situation it might and will take longer than what a single man timeline will be, I am not crying for a ring tomorrow. I am just trying to access if it is even in the plans, even being a couple of years down the line.

Exactly what you said. I can't imagine how this can happen in a contemporary society, but I am not dismissing his concern. Just hoping he'll tell me more when he feels ready to do so.

My hypothesis is he's overdramatizing it - because of his lack of experience in the breakup/divorce field. I wasn't married but when I was facing a move-out from live in relationship, I had the samethought (overreaction, in my head): would his family forgive me, how can I return the ring without being a complete jerk.. And guess what: his family was relieved we broke it off... I suspect hers will be too, when they do divorce.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Your brakes have been on for a long time already.
Of course his wife's family are going to be upset, why wouldn't they be?
The consequences of that  I guess he is implying would be violent is that correct?.

Yes that's what he implied. And you know what, I have a hard time believing that. They never fully accepted him anyway, from the little that I know. Especially her kids seem to be hating him with passion. Why would they all of a sudden turn violent and protective?

[elaine567]

Just now, TamBuktu said:

Yes that's what he implied. And you know what, I have a hard time believing that. They never fully accepted him anyway, from the little that I know. Especially her kids seem to be hating him with passion. Why would they all of a sudden turn violent and protective?

Divorcing their mother would leave her in her sixties without financial support. 

[Wiseman2]

 

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

 I think most of what he is worried about is in his head. 

His wife and extended family finding out he's slinking around cheating is a very real fear. Not 'in his head'.

Keep in mind he doesn't want to loose his beloved wife or hurt her, so he doesn't want anyone finding out about his dark little secret. A mistress is disposable because there's no commitment and it's a hidden relationship anyway, so can easily disappear.

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I couldn't possibly know I'll fall in love with him and desire future with him after an year or two of dating.

You are not dating. Married men don’t date - they have extramarital affairs. He is not looking for a replacement wife - he already has a wife. 

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

At his situation it might and will take longer than what a single man timeline will be, I am not crying for a ring tomorrow.

You are looking for a husband, like a single woman would be planning to progress the relationship. This relationship can not progress, as he is married to another woman. That may not be convenient for you, but it is fact! Ignore that fact at your own peril. 

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I am not dismissing his concern.

You are dismissing his concern, in much the same way that you are dismissing almost everyone’s advice in this discussion (with the exception of Elaine;). What you are doing is the equivalent of “I know he is married now, but if I wait long enough he will make a different decision because what we share is just so special…” He’s telling you by his words and actions that this is not the case - and you are dismissing that because it doesn’t fit your narrative. 

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

My hypothesis is he's overdramatizing it - because of his lack of experience in the breakup/divorce field.

My hypothesis is that you are not willing to accept the writing on the wall here based on your lack of experience with relationships/extramarital affairs and this fairytale love story you have created for yourself. 
 

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Divorcing their mother would leave her in her sixties without financial support. 

TMI here but she comes from a very spoilt background, both from birth family and her husband N1, no idea what they settled but put it this way, she won't be starving. 
And if she still wants/needs support, it is something that we can arrange. I haven't offered for the only reason that it hasn't been discussed but I have a set plan on that.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

My hypothesis is that you are not willing to accept the writing on the wall here based on your lack of experience with relationships/extramarital affairs and this fairytale love story you have created for yourself. 

Maybe, but let's just assume I'll stick to my theory until proven otherwise.

Not rushing anything but besides some anger i got from reading all this, it empowered me to talk to him, twice, over the course of the weekend, so that's that about dismissing advice..

[BaileyB]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I have a set plan on that.

You have a lot of plans, but his wife, her children, her family, even his divorce - it’s none of your business. Like most OW, you are quick to pass judgment on his wife and quick to plan his divorce…

[elaine567]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yes that's what he implied. And you know what, I have a hard time believing that. They never fully accepted him anyway, from the little that I know. Especially her kids seem to be hating him with passion. Why would they all of a sudden turn violent and protective?

Her family may not like him anyway but I guess the fact he has been cheating with you for 3 years is not going to endear him to them.

He may just be throwing this into the mix to dissuade you, OR he knows them well and he knows what they are capable of.
No-one here can say for certain whether it is a valid concern or not as we don' know them, but even if we did and dismissed it, anger is a powerful emotion and angry people can sometimes be capable of anything.

Edited November 1, 2021 by elaine567
quote

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Her family may not like him anyway but I guess the fact he has been cheating with you for 3 years is not going to endear him to them.

He may just be throwing this into the mix to dissuade you, OR he knows them well and he knows what they are capable of.
No-one here can say for certain whether it is a valid concern or not as we don' know them, but even if we did and dismissed it, anger is a powerful emotion and angry people can sometimes be capable of anything.

Yes, that.. Seems like the narrative will be "we accepted you against all odds and you did THIS".. I just cannot express how much I hate this, he's a very successful person and yet some "voices" from his surroundings make him feel inferior (he never told me but is as clear as day, don't want to get into details on that but is low, and quite frankly  downright disgusting because it relates to things he cannot change. Let's just leave it at that, hope you caught my drift without saying what I'm saying directly...)

I wasn't fully aware if he's onboard but by his words he is, he doesn't know how to get out of there and I want to act smart not fast.

Edited November 1, 2021 by TamBuktu

[RebeccaR]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

TMI here but she comes from a very spoilt background, both from birth family and her husband N1, no idea what they settled but put it this way, she won't be starving. 
And if she still wants/needs support, it is something that we can arrange. I haven't offered for the only reason that it hasn't been discussed but I have a set plan on that.

If a man needs you to support his soon to be ex wife as a requirement for him divorcing, ditch him. Not only are you leaving your estate to him, but you’re offering it as a bribe for him to divorce? Let me just tell you, that comes off as desperate.

Also, you said earlier that even if his wife cleans him out, it doesn’t matter because he’ll live with you. Has it occurred to you he himself doesn’t want to lose his home and possessions and assets? Love is wonderful but most men don’t want to give up everything they’ve worked a lifetime for.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

If a man needs you to support his soon to be ex wife as a requirement for him divorcing, ditch him. Not only are you leaving your estate to him, but you’re offering it as a bribe for him to divorce? Let me just tell you, that comes off as desperate.

Also, you said earlier that even if his wife cleans him out, it doesn’t matter because he’ll live with you. Has it occurred to you he himself doesn’t want to lose his home and possessions and assets? Love is wonderful but most men don’t want to give up everything they’ve worked a lifetime for.

Yes I know that's a big fear of his. It saddens me because material things are replaceable.

I said I can offer never said he will accept or even wants to accept. Call me desperate if you want, for my own sake I am ready for plan B or plan C. He doesn't even know about this, it's in my cards.

[BaileyB]

15 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

he doesn't know how to get out of there and I want to act smart not fast.

Says every married man wanting to placate his OW while delaying/avoiding the decision to divorce. 

It’s classic - her family doesn’t like me but I don’t want to “be the bad guy” and deal with the consequences. I want to do this right - not fast. Just give me more time… 

So very typical, to everyone but the OW who sees his “honesty” as genuine and buys the so story he is selling - poor man, he just feels so inferior, they treat him so badly, he wants to do the right thing, he just needs my love and understanding and patience…

Edited November 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yes I know that's a big fear of his. It saddens me because material things are replaceable

To be fair, it’s not up to you to decide on his behalf that he can do without material things that are, you know, his things. Perhaps he loves you but not enough to sacrifice his entire world for you. That’s understandable, isn’t it?