After 3rd date things went bad (should we listen to our intuition or our heart)

[lee777]

I met this woman on line and we seemed to kick it off very well after the first date.  Since my marriage ended 4 1/2 years ago, I have dated about 25 women, and this is the one that made the best impression and showed the most promise at the beginning.  We're both in our 50's and I was really attracted to some of her qualities.  She is very independent and only been married 1 time for 4 years ... her longest relationship was 10 years and ended after they were engaged.  Towards the end of our first date she specifically told me that when she meets a guy and is not interested, she let's him know right then ... she followed it up by saying that she did want to see me more in the future.  I like it when a woman is no BS and tells me that she is attracted to me.  The first date and second date went awesome, but things went down hill after the 3rd date.  I will set it up below ...

She is self employed and due to staffing problems she was working a lot more.  She told me that she would have more time to spend with me after she was able to fill positions at her business.  She also lives about 75 miles from me.  So here's what happened.  We scheduled a third date to see a concert.  Prior to the concert we met at the bar and spent about 1 1/2 hours talking.  During this conversation she got emotional and started crying on three different occasions.  I was very sympathetic and reached over and held her hand and got her a tissue from the bar.  However, I was starting to believe that something here wasn't right after the 3rd time crying, though I remained very sympathetic.  The date went as planed and we went to see the concert.  I will explain when things went bad now ...

Because I did not want to drive 75 miles home late at night I told her that I booked a hotel room to stay the night and I would drive home in the morning.  She was a little taken back by this because I didn't let her know in advance.  So after our concert was over, she asked if I would like to meet her for breakfast the following morning.  I said yes.  Everything went fine until we walked out of the restaurant. I could tell she still wanted to talk before I took off.  She told me that I had bad communication, and that I should've let her know in advance that I was staying overnight at a hotel so she could've made plans in her schedule so that she could've spent more time with me the following day.  I told her that I did not want to screw with her work schedule and I did not want to make her feel obligated to spend time with me. The conversation went downhill from here. She was flat out pissed off.  She started bringing up subjects regarding men that she's dated in the past and associating them with me, like them having money problems and believing that was my problem too. It's not!  Oh I tried to change the subject and talk about one of my friends, and she got pissed and said "you got a lot of friends don't you".

I never saw such a promising situation go down the toilet so quickly as it did the 20 minutes after breakfast. I ended up looking at her and saying "you're way too cynical and I hope you find happiness one day", then I walked away.  My intuition is telling me to get the hell away, but now my heart is saying that I overreacted. I haven't communicated with her since last weekend and I'm wondering if I should now.

So here's my question folks, should we use our intuition in this situation or should we give it a second chance with better communication? Should I reach out to this woman?

[Yosemite]

23 minutes ago, lee777 said:

During this conversation she got emotional and started crying on three different occasions.

What was she crying about? 

Were her spirits down for the rest of the evening or was she cheerful? 

[spiderowl]

I'm sorry to hear what happened, OP.  It sounds like she was very fragile for some unknown reason and was not in a state to be on a date.

Not telling her about the hotel doesn't seem a big thing, unless you were expecting her to stay there with you (and maybe share a bed?).  I suppose she could have interpreted that as being a sexual advance that was sprung on her.

However, she seemed upset about something and you do not seem to know what it was.  Either she had not communicated her problem to you or you ignored it - we don't know.

Did you ask her why she was upset when you were talking before it went downhill?  Did you get any sense of what was bothering her enough to make her cry?

Some of the comments she made sound a bit paranoid, as if she is expecting the worst of you.  This could be because she has had bad experiences before.  Even so, it is not fair to treat you as if you are the culprit!

From what you have written, I can only conclude that you should have let her know you were staying in a hotel that night and that she was not in a fit state to be on a date.  Anything else would be guess work.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by spiderowl

[glows]

Use your intuition please. Do not contact her again. Those comments are completely left field and inappropriate. What is the big deal about you making plans to stay at a hotel for the night? I think it was a considerate and gentlemanly thing not to mention it in advance. You appropriately took care of your situation without inconveniencing anyone and did not make a big deal about accommodations. You both have only just met so it's natural to take things slowly. Meeting up with you again the following day is too drawn out and seems impatient/pretentious. What if you had plans yourself? Did she inquire at all or did she just assume you were free the rest of the weekend? 

Let her go. She's too selfish and very unstable. 

[FudgeSwirl]

Something probably happened that had nothing to do with you that prompted her with the tears.  Maybe she is stressed out with work being she is self-employed, maybe she learned a loved one is sick, etc.  I am sure she did not want to cancel the date in spite of her emotional state because of the concert tickets, but if she did not wish to reveal the details of what was wrong she should have just admitted that she had some sort of work/family/etc. problem that just happened right before the date hence her tears and collected herself.

I do agree you should have mentioned booking a room in her area.  I understand you were being courteous to her job but since you are getting to know her you don't necessarily know the ins and outs of schedule.  The worst thing that could have happened if you told her in advance was pretty much nothing.  

However, her reaction to not telling her was over the top.  Even though as established her emotional state wasn't the best, bringing up previous men and comparing you to them shows a bit of insecurity.

Considering she did not reach out to you to apologize or explain her behavior, I would not reach out to her and move on.

[lee777]

1 hour ago, Yosemite said:

What was she crying about? 

Were her spirits down for the rest of the evening or was she cheerful? 

First thing I should say is that she told me that alcohol makes her emotional ... though she only had 2 beers at the bar and no beer at the concert.  What started the first set of crying was I brought up Anthony Bourdain and him taking his own life.  I told her that I would never kill myself and if the thought would have ever crossed my mind, it would have happened during my divorce.  She responded back by saying "the reason why you never thought of killing yourself is because you have children".  I then could see the tears build a little in her eyes and she started crying.  I asked her if she ever wanted to kill herself and she didn't answer.  I showed a lot of empathy and held her hand and said very kind things.

The other crying sessions where due to being jerked around by men and also being alone during the holidays.

She is a beautiful woman and it is so strange!  She has NO FAMILY.  She never knew her father and was brought up by a single mother.  She had 2 brothers and 1 sister and NONE of them ever got married or had any children.  They have all passed away.  She is literary all alone.  She seemed so perfect and yet she flat out pushed away with this crazy behavior. 

[lee777]

43 minutes ago, glows said:

"Did she inquire at all or did she just assume you were free the rest of the weekend?"

She did ask me what I had planned, and I told her I was going to drive home and meet my son later in the afternoon.  I did not want her to think that I had alternative goals to get her into bed and I did not want to interfere with her work schedule.

 

43 minutes ago, glows said:

 

 

[Maldives]

Over the top reaction. Woman are more emotional. I can't think of a woman I've dated or was with that wasn't irrational lol haha. I don't understand it but from books I've read on the difference's between the genders it's just there wiring and men are to listen and offer support even if we feel were attacked lol. They are expressing how they feel to centre themselves. To be honest I've found this kind of behaviour challenging at the best of times and tried not to spark an argument but found it extremely challenging. I can relate to your experience with this woman's outburst and I bet money on it she's got too much pride and won't reach out. You can reach out. I think it's on her to do but I don't think she will I'm just guessing of course but pretty confident in my assumption. Reading these stories gives me flashbacks maybe I'll go for ladyboys from here on in lol haha good luck 

Btw I'm 50 too so not a young dude with little experience just my two cents worth but this behaviour resonates with a lot of experiences I've had with woman even my own sister.  

 

Ever hear the expression 'storm in a teacup'? Ye woman lol.. I'm guessing her attack was really a front for you to console her fears and show you care but most men feel like we're being attacked when they behave like this 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Goodguy05

[Alvi]

2 hours ago, lee777 said:

What started the first set of crying was I brought up Anthony Bourdain and him taking his own life.  I told her that I would never kill myself and if the thought would have ever crossed my mind, it would have happened during my divorce.  She responded back by saying "the reason why you never thought of killing yourself is because you have children".  I then could see the tears build a little in her eyes and she started crying.  I asked her if she ever wanted to kill herself and she didn't answer.  I showed a lot of empathy and held her hand and said very kind things.

How on earth did this convo happened? You should be talking about cheerful upbeat things on your dates, not about doomy and gloomy ones.

2 hours ago, lee777 said:

The other crying sessions where due to being jerked around by men and also being alone during the holidays.

 

2 hours ago, lee777 said:

She is a beautiful woman and it is so strange!  She has NO FAMILY.  She never knew her father and was brought up by a single mother.  She had 2 brothers and 1 sister and NONE of them ever got married or had any children.  They have all passed away.  She is literary all alone.  She seemed so perfect and yet she flat out pushed away with this crazy behavior. 

Honestly, she sounds very depressed. No family, no friends. No support system whatsoever. Hopefully she is not suicidal. Gosh, I feel so bad for her just reading this. How old is she? 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Alvi

[Ami1uwant]

2 hours ago, lee777 said:

First thing I should say is that she told me that alcohol makes her emotional ... though she only had 2 beers at the bar and no beer at the concert.  What started the first set of crying was I brought up Anthony Bourdain and him taking his own life.  I told her that I would never kill myself and if the thought would have ever crossed my mind, it would have happened during my divorce.  She responded back by saying "the reason why you never thought of killing yourself is because you have children".  I then could see the tears build a little in her eyes and she started crying.  I asked her if she ever wanted to kill herself and she didn't answer.  I showed a lot of empathy and held her hand and said very kind things.

The other crying sessions where due to being jerked around by men and also being alone during the holidays.

She is a beautiful woman and it is so strange!  She has NO FAMILY.  She never knew her father and was brought up by a single mother.  She had 2 brothers and 1 sister and NONE of them ever got married or had any children.  They have all passed away.  She is literary all alone.  She seemed so perfect and yet she flat out pushed away with this crazy behavior. 

That’s unusual for having 4 kids and none had children.

 

why was she crying…you might have touched something off like either she thought of suicidal or someone close or siblings committed suicidal.

 

it seems like thus was a big misunderstanding with you staying at a hotel.  Did you talk about what you’d do prior to the date given  your distance from home and late time.  This I’d think would have been brought up.

 

her work has taken her away from her loneliness.

 

there were no wanting signs to how this ended.

[chillii]

lt's all due men. and pasts, not just that one, that's very obvious. Problem is your already getting thrown into that basket but it has nothing to do with you , and over nothing. Your not other men and this is now but she's one of the trillion women out there that don't separate things and comes out guns blazing somehow entwining pasts and wrongs with the here and now.

l think your feeling is spot on . We all have stuff after marriage or relationships but with someone like this that's obviously not even close to working it all through possibly never will , from what l've seen these people don't just fix this stuff. And you probably can't either l'm afraid , even though it isn't even your job to anyway but l'd be betting you'd spend your life dealing with it with her.

Edited September 4, 2021 by chillii

[ExpatInItaly]

6 hours ago, Goodguy05 said:

Woman are more emotional. I can't think of a woman I've dated or was with that wasn't irrational

Then your picker is broken. 

It's not the sign of a very stable person if she is dissolving into tears - repeatedlly - on a third date. This isn't normal behaviour for a mature woman. 

OP, I think your instinct about her was correct. Something is really off with her, and you're now tiptoeing on eggshells even though you barely know her. It sounds to me like she's got a lot of issues to sort out before she tries dating. You're going to be paying the price for every other man's mistakes with her otherwise. 

I would let this one be. She is not in the right headspace for a relationship at this time and it would not go well. 

[IrinaM]

I also think you should not contact her further. It was only three dates, and only two of them went well, so let it be.

This suicide conversation strikes me as a bizarre choice on your part, and I feel like we are not getting some important details about the date, but that doesn't matter. Just don't contact her regardless.

I'm curious - did you have sex on any of these dates? Had you been to her home? Had she been to yours?

 

[chillii]

Yeah that was a weird one and pushed a button but she has lots of buttons .

[Wiseman2]

12 hours ago, lee777 said:

 I told her that I booked a hotel room to stay the night and I would drive home in the morning.  

.The hotel thing on a third date didn't come off too well. It sort of put you in the "guys just looking for date 3 sex" bucket in her mind. It's a pretty transparent maneuver.

That being said, she's got too much baggage and sobbing and angry etc on date 3 is a huge red flag .

This is why dating locally with women you can get to know better and see on a regular basis is a better option.

[elaine567]

My guess she is menopausal.

[Blind-Sided]

She was a whack job.  Crying during conversations?  Getting mad because you were being a "Gentleman" and not assuming you could just stay at her house after a late night. From what I can see... you only went out a couple times... at most.  Why would you have to tell her what you are doing after a date?  I'm guessing your communication skills were just fine... she was being unrealistic with you.

Sorry it went bad... but sounds like you dodged a bullet. 

[d0nnivain]

Intuition isn't even required here.  The evidence is that she's not in a healthy place to have a relationship.  To cry to a relative stranger on a 3rd date about some celebrity's suicide seems out there, unless she recently had a death like that in her circle.  She clear wants children but in her 50s, that is no longer a possibility.  She hasn't made peace with that & is taking it out on you.  The pandemic, the labor shortage & her long hours are taking a toll.  She's overwhelmed.  

For her to go off on you about your attempt to keep yourself safe by not undertaking a 75 mile drive while tired but not being presumptuous about sex & expecting her to put you up is flat out ridiculous.   

I'm sorry it went so wrong so fast but better you find out after 3 dates then 3 years.  Hope the concert was good. 

[Lotsgoingon]

Why the heck is she crying about Anthony Bourdain on a third date? Now, let's say your mother died a month ago, sure--sadness might come through in moments. But if the person can't really work around their sadness, they're not (I'm talking her) ready to date. 

Major red flag.

Same with her bringing up past bad experiences with other men. Red flag. Major! She's still in such pain, and she sees herself as a victim. Again, why aren't your alarms going off? .

And here is the major, screaming example of you being codependent and disconnected from yourself--to use different language, I'd say you have terrible boundaries. You might need to google "boundaries" because you are moving into caretaking when that's not the role as we date someone to figure out if we want a relationship. 

She told me that I had bad communication, and that I should've let her know in advance that I was staying overnight at a hotel so she could've made plans in her schedule so that she could've spent more time with me the following day.  I told her that I did not want to screw with her work schedule and I did not want to make her feel obligated to spend time with me. 

Stop. Stop. Stop. If I were a coach, this is the point where the coach walks to the player, stops the collective practice and points out the major mistake. It's not your job to worry about "screwing" with her schedule. You don't take care of her before she's asked you to take care of her. You're treating her like a three-year-old. Yes, with three-year-olds if you're the adult you keep track of when they might get hungry, tired, need to go the bathroom. But that's NOT your job dating another adult individual. If she can't say "no, I'm busy," then you don't wanna date her. Period.

Worrying about her being "obligated" if you simply told her you were spending the night--dude, you gotta fix this or all your dating will be disaster. 

Absolutely don't see her again, but the important point is that you fix your entire perspective. This is NOT a close call. 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Lotsgoingon

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Intuition isn't even required here.  The evidence is that she's not in a healthy place to have a relationship. 

I was going to say this exact thing. Forget intuition, forget your heart (it really does just pump blood), use your brain. And time to end it. Her good qualities don’t outweigh the crazy.

[Alpacalia]

19 hours ago, lee777 said:

My intuition is telling me to get the hell away, but now my heart is saying that I overreacted.

Nothing you've written suggests you've overreacted.

Something evidently irritated her, and you were unfortunate enough to be caught in the crossfire.

She doesn't appear to be in the right headspace to date.

[glows]

18 hours ago, lee777 said:

First thing I should say is that she told me that alcohol makes her emotional ... though she only had 2 beers at the bar and no beer at the concert.  What started the first set of crying was I brought up Anthony Bourdain and him taking his own life.  I told her that I would never kill myself and if the thought would have ever crossed my mind, it would have happened during my divorce.  She responded back by saying "the reason why you never thought of killing yourself is because you have children".  I then could see the tears build a little in her eyes and she started crying.  I asked her if she ever wanted to kill herself and she didn't answer.  I showed a lot of empathy and held her hand and said very kind things.

The other crying sessions where due to being jerked around by men and also being alone during the holidays.

She is a beautiful woman and it is so strange!  She has NO FAMILY.  She never knew her father and was brought up by a single mother.  She had 2 brothers and 1 sister and NONE of them ever got married or had any children.  They have all passed away.  She is literary all alone.  She seemed so perfect and yet she flat out pushed away with this crazy behavior. 

You would have seen this now or later. Count your lucky stars you saw it early. And your child deserves a father who’s dating someone more stable. You have more to worry about than just yourself or this woman. 

[petee]

let's face it, you are going to go back and investigate. You are inclined not to give up.

FWIW, you are wasting your time, I do not think that the information flow was unreasonable at all, you were reacting and being pragmatic. She maybe wanted to be more in control than was reasonable.

That said, it was date number 3. In the UK that is sufficient to progress to the bed. Maybe if she'd known then that was a possibility?

It matters not, she has shown her true colour, and I think it's worth moving on. All so much easier said than done. Whatever you do, good luck.

[lee777]

6 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Worrying about her being "obligated" if you simply told her you were spending the night--dude, you gotta fix this or all your dating will be disaster. 

Absolutely don't see her again, but the important point is that you fix your entire perspective. This is NOT a close call. 

 

 

You are on to something here.  That is the best advice I have received in this venue.  I'm going to work on this and be more cognitive in the future. Thank you!

[Lotsgoingon]

@lee777, I share my comment based on painful, painful experience.

I grew up in a family with terrible boundaries and a mother who had been assaulted as a child and who banged it into our heads to worry about other people first. The correction I had to learn was to look after myself and other people equally. And really look after myself first or I'll end up trying to help other people when I don't have the skill or time or energy or desire.

Once you have a great partner, yes, you can both really look out for the other. But you also need to look after yourself--if you don't do this, you won't even tell your partner what you like or what or let your partner know how you think and feel. So you end up keeping your partner at a distance and actually blocking your partner from nurturing and loving you. But even then you will rely on your partner to tell you what they need. You don't want to go around worrying about what they need if they can't talk and tell you themselves. 

Just wanted to fess up to the origins of my comments. A tip: strange as this sounds, you can be more selfish in dating.  Not selfish as in cruel and mena and manipulative.  But selfish as in, call somebody up and ask them what you want. Let them tell you no. Tune into what you want and start from there. That even works on a date, quit worrying about impressing the other person or being understanding. No, the goal is to share who you are and see if they can work with you and you with them.  And pay attention to your real reactions. If something strikes you as odd or strange, then go with that. That's your body and nervous system talking. You're over-ruling clear signals that you're getting that a person isn't good for you. 

And the reason you're worried about "obligating" someone is because if the tables were turned, you are the type most likely who would feel obligated. Don't. No, there is a fundamental and necessary selfish element to dating. If you have to override that selfish impulse a lot in the beginning, it means you and the partner aren't going to work out. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Lotsgoingon