Is she a narcissist? Is she trying to hoover me now with her postpartum depression?

[CaraGrace]

I should have written about this friend here before, about I confronted her about how her behaviors made me feel, and she took it very badly and turned the blame around on me.. I admit that at that time, my intention wasn't 100% pure - I was trying to expose her because I was really angry as I realized that for all these years, what she said/did to me were probably all intentional. I've been accepting and tolerating her behaviors because I always tried to think that she didn't said/did those things on purposes, accepting that she's just a person with no filter... But when these behaviors were becoming very repetitive, frequent and obvious in recent years, I started to see that she was intentional, that she actually planned what she said/did with the purpose of putting me down... 

After the confrontation (in which she said that if I didn't accept her as who she was, there's nothing she could do), we had met once on our friend's wedding, where I pretended to be cool with her. But after that, I knew that I actually couldn't accept her anymore. What she said to me when I confronted her about my feelings left me very angry, perplexed, and bitter. I started to distant from her, but my determination was challenged when she announced she was pregnant a few months later, and she kept reaching out by messages, phone calls and on social media, probably hoping to get the attentions and care she wanted. During her pregnancy, I felt very bad for ignoring her.. I felt guilty all the time, kept thinking that perhaps I've wronged her, perhaps all my 'accusations' towards her were false, perhaps I'm being a very lousy friend... but I also wanted to stick to my boundaries and protect myself.

Some people told me that she seems to be a narcissist and recommended me to read more on narcissism so that her 'tricks' won't work on me again once I understand what 'tricks' she would use, and that going 'no contact' is the best and only solution. So I stopped contacting her, and gave her very short replies or tried not to engage in the conversation when she reached out.. After months of no contact, her baby was born in mid-June. I didn't reach out to congratulate her, but I knew it's about time that she would eventually reach out again.. Then yesterday, she sent out a picture of her baby in a group chat between us and our other friend (my best friend who is not really close with her). She said hi with the baby's photo, and then apologized for not reaching out and introducing the baby earlier because she was in a very bad condition after giving birth. In where we live, new mums usually hire a 'maternity nurse' for a month, who would come to your home every day, like 9 to 5, to take care of the new mum and baby, prepare food and medicines etc. She wrote a very long message talking about how badly she was treated by her maternity nurse, like forcing her to eat food and take medicines that were not suitable for her, not allowing her to breastfeed the baby herself, not allowing her leave her bed and go to the toilet, and forcing her to do housework etc.. She said that she literally wanted to kill herself, and she became so weak that she once dropped her baby because she's too weak, and her wound got infected and many other health issues followed... 

Both my other friend and I didn't reply her message right away.. My first feeling was it's very frustrating reading what she wrote, which sounded a bit too exaggerating and unreal.. I didn't want to give her the cold shoulder when she said she's in such bad condition, but at the same time I found it hard to believe all the things she said and I didn't want to be break my boundaries. I only sent her a very short message at night, almost 12 hours after, telling her to take care and recover soon. Then today, she replied saying that she's recovering slowly now, and that she was suicidal before because she felt hopeless and didn't want to live. I don't know what to say. I think it's as if I have to care about her because she's having a very hard time and that she probably has postpartum depression. But the reason I'm holding back on my care and compassion is because I don't want to be taken advantage of and taken for granted, which seemed to be the dynamic in this friendship over the years... I found out this when I re-read the diaries I kept during high school and the letters I exchanged with her, e.g. she used to tell me that I was her only friend (because she was disliked by my other friends and most of the other classmates) and so if I ignored/left her, she would be miserable. Sometimes she took the soft approach by telling me how much she loved me and how important I was to her and said that we had to be friends forever, sometimes she got aggressive and said that I was a very bad person because I befriended her/took advantage of her when I had no friends but left her behind once I had made new friends... Then I found that this tactic of hers has actually been working on me for all these years, that I always did what she wanted because I felt guilty/that I was a bad person if I didn't...

Today I re-read the messages we exchanged during our confrontation, trying to see if I've wronged her in any way that maybe she doesn't deserve to be completely ignored by me (and obviously also by my other friend who's not very close with her and they never really hang out together if not because of me)... Somehow, she's now losing two friends, whom she always says are her closest friends that she loves very much... and now, clearly she wants care and support from her friends... But even after re-reading and re-thinking, I'm still not convinced that she deserves a second chance... but somehow, I also worry that perhaps I've been reading too much on narcissism and am too convinced that she's a narcissist that my perception may be influenced or even twisted. [ ] 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
conversation removed for privacy of other party

[CaraGrace]

*and in the beginning of the whatsapp conversation, we were discussing the details of Megan's wedding... I was very involved in helping Megan with the arrangements because I work as an event planner myself and I'm quite good at it, and my husband would help to drive parents of the bride and groom to the venue and so I helped to plan the car route, pick up and drop off etc... and it's also because I cared and I didn't want the bummers that happened on my wedding to happen on Megan's wedding. Actually some of the major bummers were from the friend in question, e.g. she forgot to bring the flower girl to me when I walked down the aisle, and that she made a fuss over the seat arrangement... I was pissed and triggered by her behaviors at that time, but I didn't want to argue with her but was too pissed that I vented my anger on my husband and yelled at him once during the wedding dinner, which of course I regretted and which she then always used to describe/imply me as a bridezilla who's too demanding and controlling over details... And so when I told her about the things that I was helping Megan to arrange, she again implied that I was a control freak... but the fact is, she herself was even more demanding on her own wedding, and she never really forgets what 'went wrong' on her wedding / gets over with the fact that I missed her wedding, though when confronted she kept saying she didn't care about her wedding and didn't even want the wedding at all... (you can read the details in the conversation...)

Edited September 1, 2021 by CaraGrace

[vla1120]

My first impression is that I would never use text to discuss such sensitive topics that can easily be taken out of context (as I think some of them were, apparently.) I also did not see evidence of her being completely unreasonable or narcissistic (and I lived with a diagnosed narcissist for six years). It actually looked like she was constantly trying to appease you in her text messages. Here are some things that stuck out to me:

1. It sounds like she was hurt that she didn't have the people she wanted at her wedding (not just you, but hardly anyone) and she tries to downplay that by saying she doesn't care about her wedding. I suspect that she was pretty hurt by you not attending. What she heard you saying was that Australia was more important to you than she was (regardless of the fact that you said it was more important than ANYTHING to you.) Perhaps in her mind, she's only getting married once while Australia will be there for an eternity.

2. Maybe she does have issues with social cues. If your husband was not offended by her mention of his crow's feet, you shouldn't have carried a grudge about that. As far as her reaction to cat hair on her clothing, maybe she's too forward with her feelings, but I wouldn't have gotten offended. Not everyone is as accepting of pet hair as pet owners. Again, I do think maybe you got offended too easily. Comparing your wedding favor to another friends could be hurtful, but if you suspect that she does not take social cues very well, again, I would overlook some of those things. 

3. Suggesting that she has Asperger's could have been very hurtful for her (whether she does or not.) I think she handled that suggestion pretty well, myself. Also, her getting upset at the changed seating arrangements at your wedding seemed to have more to do with the fact that you didn't seat her with her own husband (am I correct?) and less to do with the fact that she was not seated with Megan.

Finally, when she told you and your friend that she was suicidal, to wait 12 HOURS to respond, and then only respond with a short, curt message was pretty harsh. If I had a complete stranger communicate that he/she was having suicidal ideations, I would have suggested a suicide hotline or something to help him/her. You and your friend completely blew her off. How would you have felt if she committed suicide? Postpartum depression is a very real thing. 

Frankly, I would let her go if I were you. Hopefully she can make friends with someone else who might be a little more forgiving and understanding of her perceived shortcomings. Perhaps you could let her down gently by telling her you're just too busy to maintain contact with her, but you wish her all the luck in the world with her new baby. Maybe you could research your area and suggest a support group for new moms. It sounds like she could use a little help and understanding.

[CaraGrace]

7 hours ago, vla1120 said:

My first impression is that I would never use text to discuss such sensitive topics that can easily be taken out of context (as I think some of them were, apparently.) I also did not see evidence of her being completely unreasonable or narcissistic (and I lived with a diagnosed narcissist for six years). It actually looked like she was constantly trying to appease you in her text messages. Here are some things that stuck out to me:

1. It sounds like she was hurt that she didn't have the people she wanted at her wedding (not just you, but hardly anyone) and she tries to downplay that by saying she doesn't care about her wedding. I suspect that she was pretty hurt by you not attending. What she heard you saying was that Australia was more important to you than she was (regardless of the fact that you said it was more important than ANYTHING to you.) Perhaps in her mind, she's only getting married once while Australia will be there for an eternity.

2. Maybe she does have issues with social cues. If your husband was not offended by her mention of his crow's feet, you shouldn't have carried a grudge about that. As far as her reaction to cat hair on her clothing, maybe she's too forward with her feelings, but I wouldn't have gotten offended. Not everyone is as accepting of pet hair as pet owners. Again, I do think maybe you got offended too easily. Comparing your wedding favor to another friends could be hurtful, but if you suspect that she does not take social cues very well, again, I would overlook some of those things. 

3. Suggesting that she has Asperger's could have been very hurtful for her (whether she does or not.) I think she handled that suggestion pretty well, myself. Also, her getting upset at the changed seating arrangements at your wedding seemed to have more to do with the fact that you didn't seat her with her own husband (am I correct?) and less to do with the fact that she was not seated with Megan.

Finally, when she told you and your friend that she was suicidal, to wait 12 HOURS to respond, and then only respond with a short, curt message was pretty harsh. If I had a complete stranger communicate that he/she was having suicidal ideations, I would have suggested a suicide hotline or something to help him/her. You and your friend completely blew her off. How would you have felt if she committed suicide? Postpartum depression is a very real thing. 

Frankly, I would let her go if I were you. Hopefully she can make friends with someone else who might be a little more forgiving and understanding of her perceived shortcomings. Perhaps you could let her down gently by telling her you're just too busy to maintain contact with her, but you wish her all the luck in the world with her new baby. Maybe you could research your area and suggest a support group for new moms. It sounds like she could use a little help and understanding.

I understand if it gives you the impression that I get upset too easily from the examples I pointed out to her in the messages. This is one of the reasons why I would keep thinking if I shouldn't cut her off after that conversation, and that I also regretted using those examples, instead of the other more obvious and hurtful examples, in the confrontation, because I was hoping to downplay the problems too, so that she may not be too overwhelmed or offended by what I said, that she may not take it too badly and we could still talk... I don't know... I should have used the examples where she was obviously trying to put me down for years (insulting my lifestyle, my career, saying that I am not making and saving as much as she does because I'm only relying on a man to feed me and give me a shelter, just because I work from home and my husband owns a condo, she thinks that I'm not working and portrays me as a freerider, while the reason behind all these comparisons and remarks is probably because she dreams to become a stay at home housewife but she's not (now she finally is after having the baby) and she likes to put me down when she thinks I have something that she wants that she doesn't have... just these types of insults have been happening for the past 3 years ever since my husband and I have moved to this new condo that he bought (which she keeps on saying I didn't pay for and implies that I don't deserve/earn it), while I have been working from home as a freelancer for like 8 years but she never said such things before the condo happened... so why was being a freelancer ok before, but only become a synonym of freerider after the condo? I know if I used this example in the confrontation, probably she would become even more aggressive and thats why I didn't use it, but maybe I should have.  

And the examples in the conversation may seem very petty, I know, and that's why at the moments when they happened, I never reacted aggressively, I was always laughing and playing along with her tease/jokes, and I would just said to myself like "well she's like that/well this is her/she didn't mean it" etc., but yet like "forgive but not forget", what happened/what she said or did wouldn't just go away, they stay in my memory... I always excused her but these things didn't happen just once or twice, they had been happening since the day I knew her, for 20 years... So like what I said when little things accumulate, it becomes a big problem...

What really made me think that I have to cut her off was how she reacted. I actually didn't need and wasn't look for her apology, but just knowledging my feelings and the fact that she's not very good at considering other people's feelings (not just me, other people also feel the same, but somehow her main target was me), so that maybe she can pay more attention to that in the future. But she didn't. She only told me that I shouldn't feel that way because she's done nothing wrong and because it's only me over interpretting her meanings. She asked me to stop being overly sensitive and stop over interpretting her, while I have to keep on believing and accepting that she is overly straightforward... So she can be her and doesn't have to change even though now that she's told some of her behaviors are hurting people because "this is her" so take it or leave it! But in order for us to be friends, I have to change and adjust myself for her, so that I can accept her no matter what she says/does, because, well she's not responsible for what she says/does because she's stressful and forgetful..?!

I mean... she's made a choice. She asked me to accept her and if I can't, there is nothing she can do because she can't change.. I did still try to accept her but then I found I couldn't, and so I walked away. Then she's pregnant, very good timing, and I should be there for her, right? And now all the dramas with the maternity nurse... well not just me, I also asked my other mum friends and they said what she said about the maternity nurse seems a bit fake and exaggerating... I want to believe her but she's a constant liar... I don't know if a person with postpartum depression would walk around telling people she is suicidal... maybe it's too mean to say that.. but if you know her in person, and if you're the target of her competition/insults/emotional abuse for years, you may understand why I hesitate whether to trust her or not... 

[CaraGrace]

8 hours ago, vla1120 said:

1. It sounds like she was hurt that she didn't have the people she wanted at her wedding (not just you, but hardly anyone) and she tries to downplay that by saying she doesn't care about her wedding. I suspect that she was pretty hurt by you not attending. What she heard you saying was that Australia was more important to you than she was (regardless of the fact that you said it was more important than ANYTHING to you.) Perhaps in her mind, she's only getting married once while Australia will be there for an eternity.

The fact that she's not letting me go on the topic that I missed her wedding, keeps bringing it up and at the same time comparing me with Megan saying that I was a lousy friend - all suggested that she was pretty hurt that I didn't attend. And that's why I asked. Honestly there is nothing I can do now for something I did wrong 6 years ago (but still, to me, if I gave up my trip to attend her wedding, I would regret for the rest of my life... so am I wrong to choose myself? I don't know...), but at least maybe we can talk about it heart to heart... I apologized and I don't know what I can do to help her get over it. If her way of making herself feel better is to keep bringing it up that I was a worse friend than Megan for the rest of her life, well yea she has every right to do that, but somehow I would eventually walk away from her because do I really deserve to be teased and insulted for that for eternity? She can stay her way but that is how she's pushing people away from her... She has to compare me with someone else to prove that I'm worse (and there are many other examples other than this one), but Megan doesn't really see her as "friend", as most just "acquaintance" because they're not close at all! And Megan didn't come all the way back for her, she came back for her boyfriend... This is also what makes me think that it's unfair to keep saying I'm a worse friend than Megan, just because she THOUGHT Megan came back for her.. This is ridiculous... And yes, Australia will be there for an eternity, but working holiday doesn't. The age limit is 30, and I was 29 at that time. If I come back, I gave up the trip entirely. It's 10 years of hard work and saving up enough money (I had to leave a whole year of household money behind for my family before I go, and then also the travel money and back up money given that I quit my job for the trip). I went on the trip carrying the name of a selfish & immature daughter who left her family and job behind, bearing the risk of calling off the 5-year relationship with my boyfriend, and the risk of not being able to find a job after I returned. I gave up and risked a lot for that trip. It isn't something easy or generally accepted in my society. I was happier in Australia and I thought about not returning at all, and I almost broke up with my boyfriend when he went to Australia to propose to me (because somehow I rejected his proposal)... If I was not coming back for my 5-year boyfriend and my family, I guess it isn't hard to understand why I didn't come back for her 2-hour wedding ceremony.. But I guess she would never understand that. She never chooses to understand.

[CaraGrace]

9 hours ago, vla1120 said:

3. Suggesting that she has Asperger's could have been very hurtful for her (whether she does or not.) I think she handled that suggestion pretty well, myself. Also, her getting upset at the changed seating arrangements at your wedding seemed to have more to do with the fact that you didn't seat her with her own husband (am I correct?) and less to do with the fact that she was not seated with Megan.

I understand that it may be hurtful, and as you can see she was clearly offended. But the reason I said that perhaps is just me trying to make sense of her behaviors... If she refused to change, how do I adjust myself to accept what she said/did to me that are often demeaning and rude? If she has Asperger's, that it all "makes sense", perhaps it'd be easier for me to accept... Well this is stupid... perhaps I'm not able to accept anyway... it's just too unbearable... But at that time, there were actually 2 different TV series here with protagonists who have Asperger's and they're portrayed in a very positive way (like genius and very attractive), and given the fact that I know someone who has it, and as you can see that I mentioned in my message I said this person is quite amiable... So when I suggested that to her, I really didn't mean to offend her. But she attacked me right away, if you can see that... she was aggressive. Actually she also suggested that I have mental issue and asked me to take a test and seek therapy... And just because I admitted once that I'm a sensitive person (and in a way to take half of the responsibility for the problems between us), she kept using it against me and made the problem entirely mine (because it's not ok for me to be sensitive but ok for her to be OVERLY straightforward), I don't know if you can see that... 

Of course she's only upset that she's not sitting with her husband, she didn't care about Megan at all, she said that herself! And I have explained that I wasn't able to arrange any of them to sit on the same table after the re-arrangement of seats due to those relatives who ditched us... To give you a clearer picture, after cancelling one table, I had to re-arrange the whole seating plan for the guests, who are all our seniors and so it was important to arrange them to sit with people they are close with (and do not dislike - well, family relationship can be complicated), and at the same time arranged according to seniority (norm in my culture, and if you do it wrong, you're being disrespectful). There were 5 tables and 50+ guests in total at the dinner, and after rearrangements there was 1 seat left in 3 of the tables (so 3 seats in total, and my they could take but sit separately). I really couldn't change seats of my guests in order to free 2 seats in one of table so that she and her husband could sit together. I tried but I couldn't, if you could get the picture what was happening... My guests are all seniors, my relatives... I think it's fair to say I had to put them in higher priority than my friends, even though they're in my bridal party, when arranging seats. And I thought it's not hard to understand and very reasonable. And in where I live, in most wedding, members of the bridal party are assistants and helpers to the bride & groom, they're not really treated as 'guests', their roles are basically to 'help' and 'serve'. And so it's very normal that they're not sitting together because they're just taking whatever seats that are left on each table, if they're lucky enough to have the time to sit down and eat... And so I didn't even aware when I forgot to tell her and her husband and Megan in advance that they won't be sitting together, because it's not the most important issue, and that being able to sit together or even sit down is a bonus, to be honest. I'd say I was already very considerate that I didn't give them too many things to do so that during the dinner, they could sit down and eat, because I did most of the things myself... And even if I can forgive her for making a fuss over the seat, while the wedding was actually for me and my husband and not for her and hers, the fact that she has been portraying me as a bridezilla, as someone who only thinks for myself and not for the others, is the thing that's the most hurtful and insulting, given what I have done and thought for her and the other people... And to add to my point, she complained that it was too demanding that I only arranged she and her husband to greet the 20 guests who would attend the ceremony (we had a reception table where guests would sign the guest book)... I didn't see how I was demanding... but because of her complaint, I arranged my MOH to help her at the reception, who were supposed to help me get ready before I walked down the aisle... I don't know... it just doesn't seem enough no matter how much I do... and perhaps from what outsiders see, I'm the one who's being petty and easily offended...

Edited September 2, 2021 by CaraGrace