Am I walking into another heartbreak or could this really be heading somewhere?

[Gaeta]

I think you gave this connection more meaning than he did. 

The one offering friendship is always the one less attached.

[Weezy1973]

19 hours ago, DatingMom said:

Anyhow, this just kind of dawned on me. Maybe I'm just doomed. 

Are you still going to therapy re: your past trauma? The problem isn’t the trauma, it’s the defense mechanisms that have developed due to the trauma. Not telling you ex-husband is an example of that. You were afraid of being rejected so didn’t tell him. And the reason you’re now drawn to guys with issues is because you feel they won’t reject you. But as you’re seeing that’s not a solution either. Therapy can help make you realize that being rejected is not a big deal. And therefore trying to avoid rejection or seek acceptance is no longer a driving force. 

[DatingMom]

@Weezy1973 I have been seeing my therapist pretty regularly over the past 4 years. Frequency kind of fluctuates with how busy my life is otherwise, and whether my insurance coverage expired for the year. Haha 

I guess her take is a little bit different from people's on this forum. I had actually taken a break from seeing her for a while. About 6 months after my separation I started dating someone. We were together a year and a half. Last half year he got into this major depression. Turned out this was a recurrent thing in his life that he never told me about. 6 months later I walked away not because he was depressed but because he wasn't doing anything to get out of his situation. Furthermore, he said several things that were very hurtful, and although knowing he said those things in the context of his depression, some things you just can't take back!

My therapist's opinion is one the one hand: 1) it's ok if a person has issues if they are actively trying to resolve them, and 2) as long as I'm happy in the relationship, as long as my needs are met, it's ok to stay. 

Of course, the problem is trying to anticipate how long you'll continue being happy given circumstances and doing a risk management of whether to risk it or bail now!

[Calmandfocused]

DM I don’t disagree with your therapist. However your guy fits neither of those criteria. How can you not see that?

It’s all his needs being met, not yours. Also he’s not in the process of resolving his issues. He’s in the thick of one big giant mess! 
 

DM I’m absolutely baffled how you have time to deal with all this man drama? Also you seem to jump from guy to guy with the same complex, dramatic issues. 
 

You don’t seem to be learning. If I was you I’d take a break and keep working with your therapist to : 1) understand why you keep doing this to yourself and b) learn how to avoid these types in the future. 
 

My sense is that you’re so focused on being with someone that you’re ignoring all the giant red flags. 

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, DatingMom said:

@Weezy1973

My therapist's opinion is one the one hand: 1) it's ok if a person has issues if they are actively trying to resolve them, and 2) as long as I'm happy in the relationship, as long as my needs are met, it's ok to stay. 

Well that's rather vague.  But notice she said it's 'ok', that doesn't mean strive after it or seek it out.

Every therapist is trained to use the "it's ok to..."  line. 

Some people perceive 'troubled' as complex or interesting.

For that, TV dramas are great. But for real life it's just a parasitic energy drain and pain in the butt.

 

[poppyfields]

7 hours ago, Calmandfocused said:

DM I don’t disagree with your therapist. However your guy fits neither of those criteria. How can you not see that?

It’s all his needs being met, not yours. Also he’s not in the process of resolving his issues. He’s in the thick of one big giant mess! 
 

DM I’m absolutely baffled how you have time to deal with all this man drama? Also you seem to jump from guy to guy with the same complex, dramatic issues. 
 

You don’t seem to be learning. If I was you I’d take a break and keep working with your therapist to : 1) understand why you keep doing this to yourself and b) learn how to avoid these types in the future. 
 

My sense is that you’re so focused on being with someone that you’re ignoring all the giant red flags. 

100%^^. 

@DatingMomif you could share how this man is meeting your needs and taking appropriate steps to resolve his own issues, it would be helpful.

From what you have posted thus far, I havent seen it, but willing to change my tune if that's the case. 

How do things stand now?  Are you still seeing him?

If so, are you happy?  Does he enhance your life? 

To me, that's what a good healthy relationship is about.

Two whole and complete people coming together and 'enhancing' each other's already happy and complete life. 

All the best whatever you decide though.

[BaileyB]

On 8/19/2021 at 4:54 PM, DatingMom said:

My therapist's opinion is one the one hand: 1) it's ok if a person has issues if they are actively trying to resolve them, and 2) as long as I'm happy in the relationship, as long as my needs are met, it's ok to stay. 

Appropriate advice if you are in a long term relationship or marriage. 

This has been a summer romance. As such, when you see red flags this early in the relationship you need to bail…

[DatingMom]

On 8/20/2021 at 10:40 AM, poppyfields said:

100%^^. 

@DatingMomif you could share how this man is meeting your needs and taking appropriate steps to resolve his own issues, it would be helpful.

From what you have posted thus far, I havent seen it, but willing to change my tune if that's the case. 

How do things stand now?  Are you still seeing him?

If so, are you happy?  Does he enhance your life? 

To me, that's what a good healthy relationship is about.

Two whole and complete people coming together and 'enhancing' each other's already happy and complete life. 

All the best whatever you decide though.

To be honest, I saw him again. We didn't communicate for a few days after the Monday incident and after I told him I couldn't pursue this. He texted me on Thursday morning asking if you could come by after dropping off his kids to talk. I said ok. He came over and apologized for his behaviour earlier in the week, that he had just felt so comfortable with me and in a moment of crisis had strongly desired my company. But that he realizes now that his move was inappropriate given the short time we had known each other. He was upset with himself for having lost his chance with me because of his poor judgment in that moment. 

We had a very long conversation in which he admitted that he hadn't felt fully ok in the past two year since that court battle was going on. That the whole situation just seemed so surreal and was psychologically damaging. He admitted that he was coping with it extremely poorly for a long time, self medicating with marijuana and feeling sorry for himself. He hit rock bottom last winter at which point he decided to work on improving his mental health and try to be more optimistic about the future. He moved to a nicer apartment downtown (his ex and the kids live in the suburbs) to have a change of scenery and not constantly be reminded of the life he had before, and also give him the opportunity to walk and bike places and therefore get more exercise. He quit the pot, and started seeing a therapist on a weekly basis. He reduced his work schedule to have more time to work on his case, joined a tennis club and started playing once a week with his brother and taking lessons. He also started participating in various Meet Up activities throughout the city to get out of the house and interact with other people. He said that separating just before the pandemic had been really hard in the sense that he felt very isolated in a time where he needed the support of others, and where he needed to get out of the house and rebuild his life. So separation + pandemic had terrible consequences on his mental health. He said that he didn't feel a 100% ok, but much better than he did before. But it was still very hard to handle situations like his court hearing on Monday, and that he had been a mess for a few days after, but that it was much better than before where he would be a mess for quite a while. I told him that I was concerned about his amount of baggage and how that could affect my life. And also, I didn't want to be his therapist or lawyer, and especially didn't want to talk about his situation or his ex all the time. I also told him about the relationship I had shortly after my separation with someone who had a serious depression halfway through, and that made me realize that I needed some joy in my life. I couldn't be with someone that was always worried and sad and dealing with s***. 

He ended up staying with me for a few days (that wasn't initially planned but we just kept extending the stay) and we had a great time. I kind of felt like maybe I should give him one more chance. I was actually very pleasantly surprised about how nice it was! He barely brought up the ex again, and when he did it was more in a jokey manner. Like for example watching a movie with some very bad relationship drama and him starting to laugh and say "well I guess it could have been worse!". He was very attentive and sweet, initiated activities and made an effort to get to know me better. We really had a blast, and he wasn't gloomy at all. Quite the opposite. He was fun and jokey, and it was actually surprising. It's like he let go and was just being himself. At the end of the 3 days (my kids were coming back), he left and said that he really hoped that I would be willing to give him a chance because he thought that I was really wonderful and he would really like to pursue this if I were willing. Then today he texted to ask if there was any chance we could see each other this week. I said that Friday would be the only day but I know he's playing tennis with his brother on Friday evening. He said: let me look into changing our match to Saturday, and got back to me 30 minutes later to say that the change had been made. 

So, I guess to answer your question @poppyfields, the things that attracted me to him in the first place and that made me wanting to keep seeing him were the way he seemed to prioritize me. That's something I noticed right away. I have been doing a lot of dating, and often men would make me shift schedules around to accommodate theirs (and then sometimes cancel last minute and try to reschedule again because of this or that). He was the opposite: he would mostly try to figure something out around my schedule. Another thing was that he never made me doubt about his interest for me: he would make sure to let me know he wished to see me again, to answer my texts right away, and if he didn't, to apologize for not having answered earlier and explain why he didn't. He was also proactive in asking me out, suggesting places to go and things to do. And he was polite and respectful. Like the first time he kissed me he went in for the kiss, barely touched my lips, then paused and said "I hope that's ok". I know from experience those are not qualities that are that easy to find! 

And then the fact that we just have so many common interests. We can talk about anything for hours. And the things he has less knowledge about he asks lots of questions and seems genuinely interested in knowing more. We also have similar values: we value leading a healthy lifestyle that involves a good amount of exercise (like walking to the movie theatre that's 45 minutes each way), and trying to reduce our meat intake. Making better choices both for our bodies and the planet. It's just easy to be with him, and was like that from the beginning. On our first date after the initial 30 minutes, we just started chatting away like we've been friends for 10 years. It felt good and was really nice. So, overall I really enjoy spending time with him. Besides that Monday when he came over and was a mess, the time we spent together was mostly extremely enjoyable (except for the stories of our broken marriages of course) and I'd part with him with a smile on my face. 

Anyway, to be honest, I feel conflicted, even more now than before. The baggage worries me, and seeing him so distraught last Monday worried me. But being with him feels really quite wonderful otherwise. 

I booked a therapist session next week. I hadn't seen her in many months. Hoping that will bring some clarity. 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by DatingMom

[lonelyplanetmoon]

Reading your recent thread I can see why you are so conflicted.  It is really hard to see things clearly when you are in the thick of it.  It becomes the battle of the heart and mind all over again.  This is a tough one.  Do you take the risk and continue to the unknown?  Or do you stay safe and risk being lonely?  Either way there is a risk.

At the end of the day the only thing we really have is the NOW.  So maybe focus on that to drive your decision making process. Maybe stop thinking or worrying about the past and future.

I see a lot of myself in you so I hope you keep posting so I can join along and perhaps learn something.

[Gaeta]

10 hours ago, DatingMom said:

Anyway, to be honest, I feel conflicted, even more now than before. The baggage worries me, and seeing him so distraught last Monday worried me. But being with him feels really quite wonderful otherwise. 

I booked a therapist session next week. I hadn't seen her in many months. Hoping that will bring some clarity. 

You also thought your last man was unique and feared not experiencing this type of connection again and here you are re-living another connection. So it exists and it's not THAT rare, it can be found again & again.

My fear is that you will nurse this man back to life and then he'll move on. It seems a pattern with these men.  It can take 1 year or 3-4-5 years but they move on once they have grown their wings back. 

[DatingMom]

@Gaeta Interestingly enough, speaking of previous guy, I received a package today from him with a couple of books and a letter that was full of regret, saying he thought about me every single day since we parted, etc. etc. 

My biggest fears with current guy are: 1) the uncertainty of his situation. I mean, we might build something and then he needs to move to Saskatchewan, 2) how the situation affects him psychologically. What if it draws out for many years? Will he go mad? 3) His ex. Even if this is settled, me and him are good etc I don't feel that she'd ever be willing to just accept my presence in his life, even worse, in her children's life. They were separated before for about half a year. He moved out and got an apartment. At first he tried to work things out, suggest seeing a therapist etc. She said it was final, so he started moving on. He started dating and slept with two women he went on dates with. She found out somehow and then decided she wanted him back. And then apparently she found out who these women were and started sending them hateful messages. She went to one of the women's workplace and waited for her outside. Seems a bit scary to be honest. I can't even imagine how she'd react to someone for example living with him!

[Wiseman2]

36 minutes ago, DatingMom said:

Will he go mad?  Seems a bit scary to be honest.

He's already gone mad. Yes he's scary.

Not sure of coming over for naptime was even the worse of it or the final straw.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, DatingMom said:

And then apparently she found out who these women were and started sending them hateful messages. She went to one of the women's workplace and waited for her outside. Seems a bit scary to be honest. I can't even imagine how she'd react to someone for example living with him!

Why do you hang onto these men with such complicated lives and emotional problems? 

My partner’s ex-wife has pretty serious mental health issues. He keeps a very firm boundary with her. If I felt like she was involved in his life or a threat to my safety in any way - I would be gone. Why get involved with a man who has an ex who has no boundaries and has demonstrated threatening behaviours in the past? There is nothing that special about this man that you should put yourself at risk…

[DatingMom]

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Why do you hang onto these men with such complicated lives and emotional problems? 

My partner’s ex-wife has pretty serious mental health issues. He keeps a very firm boundary with her. If I felt like she was involved in his life or a threat to my safety in any way - I would be gone. Why get involved with a man who has an ex who has no boundaries and has demonstrated threatening behaviours in the past? There is nothing that special about this man that you should put yourself at risk…

Yeah, well I guess it's hard to have boundaries when you're in a custody battle and trying to not piss off the ex! 

[Eternal Sunshine]

I have a bit of different perspective.

Few years back, I went on around 100 first dates with men in late 30s to late 40s demographic, all met online. Few progressed to a relationship. There were some that weren't interested in me so I never found out the details of their personal situation. Most of the interested men had serious issues. Those that had ex wives were either separated, lied about being separated or divorced but with a lot of messy ex wife/children issues. ALL of them talked about their ex wives in depth, to the point where issues with ex W became the center stage of our relationship. It seemed like ex W consumed most of their thoughts, even if they "hated" her.

Those men that were single and never married almost all ended up wanting something casual. They ended up committing and marrying much younger, gorgeous women. I guess I can't blame them if that's what they could get.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that a lot of advice here is too idealistic. Sure, this is not a great situation. Sure, ideally you would want a men with no ex issues, no commitment issues etc etc but how likely are you to find this given that you are looking online? You should answer some questions for yourself: do you have the stamina and patience to wade through many, many online dates? Do you find it easy to meet single men in person? If the answer is yes, then follow the advice. If the answer is no, and you don't want to be single then perhaps it's time to reconsider.

I also have some anecdotal stories. 2 of my friends eventually married men they met online in that demographic. They both seem reasonably happy now. One of them started dating her now husband not only when he was not divorced yet but he actually still lived with his ex wife. She only told me about this much later, at the time of meeting him, she presented it like it was the dream romance. Second woman married a former meth addict who has been relapsing on and off for the first 2 year of their relationship. He has been clean for the last 5 years. People don't actually volunteer those facts upfront to their friends even. Imagine if they posted their early dating stories online? 

Perhaps online demographic for under 35s and over 50-55s is healthier, I don't know. I would assume that under 35 is.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Eternal Sunshine

[BaileyB]

41 minutes ago, DatingMom said:

Yeah, well I guess it's hard to have boundaries when you're in a custody battle and trying to not piss off the ex! 

Well then, maybe he’s not in a position to date/find himself another serious relationship yet. 

They may be in a custody battle - it doesn’t mean that she can behave inappropriately and he does nothing… 

And you certainly have the option not to involve yourself in their drama…

Edited August 25, 2021 by BaileyB

[Gaeta]

9 hours ago, DatingMom said:

Yeah, well I guess it's hard to have boundaries when you're in a custody battle and trying to not piss off the ex! 

He's entitled to move on with his life. The fact his ex is a crazy-weirdo will only play against her, not him. She cannot use 'he's dating' as a weapon against him in court. Her harassing and threatening his new girlfriend YES can be used to question her mental stability in court. So trying to not piss her off isn't justified here. 

[BaileyB]

50 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

She cannot use 'he's dating' as a weapon against him in court. Her harassing and threatening his new girlfriend YES can be used to question her mental stability in court. So trying to not piss her off isn't justified here. 

Very true.

Of course he is entitled to move on with his life. But, it’s going to be hard to do that when his ex-wife does not respect boundaries and he is not willing/able to enforce any boundaries with her. 

[Weezy1973]

10 hours ago, Eternal Sunshine said:

So I guess what I am trying to say is that a lot of advice here is too idealistic. Sure, this is not a great situation. Sure, ideally you would want a men with no ex issues, no commitment issues etc etc but how likely are you to find this given that you are looking online?

 

Women lose a lot of options as they reach their mid-30s and into their mid to late 40s as all the attractive men that want or might want children no longer consider them for anything serious. Good news is their options go up again as they reach an age where men no longer want children. 

[poppyfields]

@DatingMom, not much more to add except I posted this on another thread and thinking it applies to your sitch too.

_____

>>Because that is really what this is about, YOU.

When we find ourselves drawn to dysfunction, toxic and crazy, that is always what it's about - you.

Look within.  Internally. That is where the answer is.

<snip>

And learning to love myself first. 

When you love yourself first, toxic and crazy hold no value anymore, have no purpose.  It's a great big YAWN.<<

 

[Alvi]

12 hours ago, Eternal Sunshine said:

I also have some anecdotal stories. 2 of my friends eventually married men they met online in that demographic. They both seem reasonably happy now. One of them started dating her now husband not only when he was not divorced yet but he actually still lived with his ex wife. She only told me about this much later, at the time of meeting him, she presented it like it was the dream romance. Second woman married a former meth addict who has been relapsing on and off for the first 2 year of their relationship. He has been clean for the last 5 years. People don't actually volunteer those facts upfront to their friends even. Imagine if they posted their early dating stories online? 

 

Perfect examples of settling. Not saying that settling for just about anything is wrong, especially if you don't want to end up alone. Sometimes if you  push and push and push a square peg hard enough into a round hole it might fit after all.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, Alvi said:

Perfect examples of settling.

Settling isn’t getting less than you want; it’s taking less than you can get. If the OP wants to be in a relationship, perhaps these are her best options. So the question is does she settle for being single when she really wants to be in a relationship? Or does she settle for a less than perfect situation, if there’s potential down the road? With no guarantees of course…

[DatingMom]

9 hours ago, poppyfields said:

@DatingMom, not much more to add except I posted this on another thread and thinking it applies to your sitch too.

_____

>>Because that is really what this is about, YOU.

When we find ourselves drawn to dysfunction, toxic and crazy, that is always what it's about - you.

Look within.  Internally. That is where the answer is.

<snip>

And learning to love myself first. 

When you love yourself first, toxic and crazy hold no value anymore, have no purpose.  It's a great big YAWN.<<

 

Interesting. To be honest, I have not always loved myself. Quite the opposite actually. But I have really worked on that, and knowing that the "not loving yourself" feels like, I think I can say with confidence that I love myself a lot actually. I have a very strong sense of self worth. So I don't think that's the problem. I know in fact what the issue is here since I've discussed this with my therapist over the years. Two things:

1) I come from a family of very colourful/somewhat dysfunctional people. Although at the end of the day, everyone kind of found their way and is pretty happy. So, as my therapist says, those are the people I connect with naturally because there's something about them that feels familiar, that makes me feel like home. I know how to relate, like they're from my tribe.

2) Having had a difficult early life with quite a bit of trauma that I managed to overcome, I've developed kind of extremely high empathy. I naturally put myself in other people's shoes and tend to not judge people by their circumstances but for who they really are. Because I have been in situations in my life where people were judgmental but I knew that I was so much more than people saw. So, I kind of developed a different way of seeing people: I try to see who they actually are outside of their issues. Of course, that can lead to very dysfunctional relationships. I'm not arguing against that!

[DatingMom]

22 hours ago, Eternal Sunshine said:

Few years back, I went on around 100 first dates with men in late 30s to late 40s demographic, all met online. Few progressed to a relationship. There were some that weren't interested in me so I never found out the details of their personal situation. Most of the interested men had serious issues. Those that had ex wives were either separated, lied about being separated or divorced but with a lot of messy ex wife/children issues. ALL of them talked about their ex wives in depth, to the point where issues with ex W became the center stage of our relationship. It seemed like ex W consumed most of their thoughts, even if they "hated" her.

Those men that were single and never married almost all ended up wanting something casual. They ended up committing and marrying much younger, gorgeous women. I guess I can't blame them if that's what they could get.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that a lot of advice here is too idealistic. Sure, this is not a great situation. Sure, ideally you would want a men with no ex issues, no commitment issues etc etc but how likely are you to find this given that you are looking online? You should answer some questions for yourself: do you have the stamina and patience to wade through many, many online dates? Do you find it easy to meet single men in person? If the answer is yes, then follow the advice. If the answer is no, and you don't want to be single then perhaps it's time to reconsider.

Perhaps online demographic for under 35s and over 50-55s is healthier, I don't know. I would assume that under 35 is.

 

I hear you! I have been on SO many dates! And to be honest dated quite a few men I met online as well. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with online dating. I don't feel that I have had less luck with online than meeting people in person. In fact, some of the most f***ed up people I've dated I met in person! And my ex husband I met online in my early 20s. We did stay together for 18 years and had two kids. Just saying. 

I feel it's ok to talk about your exes. There's too much obviously, but for me I often ask lots of questions. I kind of feel like I want to know how things ended, what went wrong. It's good information. And if they phrase everything like being "her fault" then that's also a red flag. I'm much more attracted to men that have some compassion for their ex and her situation or point of view. 

I find the single never married, never in a long term relationship somewhat problematic or perhaps suspicious. I went on a date with some of them, but having young children is usually too much to handle. Same goes for the 50+. Most of them have kids that are late teens/20s. The idea of starting all over with younger kids is also too much for them. I dated a guy, not much older than me actually but who had kids early 20s. We were together for 1.5 years. There were lots of issues in that relationship, among which his history of depression, but for him me having young children was a huge issue. He didn't feel like we could ever live together for that reason. As for the under 35, I've gone there too. Interestingly, they are the ones that seem most interested overall. Go figure! For example, I went on a few dates with this very handsome 32 year old physicist. I was a little uncomfortable to be honest about being 11 years older! But then I thought "why not?", men do it all the time. My ex is marrying a woman 13 years younger. On date 3 he asked the inevitable question for a guy his age (I haven't gone on dates with many men in that age bracket, but all few of them brought this up): "would you consider having more children?" Hell NO!! Factory is CLOSED!!

All that to say that I think that you raise an interesting point actually: life is about finding balance not perfection. My favourite motto is: Happiness is reality divided by expectations. About a decade ago, I had an interesting conversation with my step-sister. She's a few years older than me and was in her mid-thirties then. I was married since 10 years, had a kid pregnant with a second. We went on a winter walk and she confessed to me: "I feel so lonely. Why can't I ever meet anyone? I would also like to have a kid." I asked her what she was looking for and where she was looking. Her expectations were unrealistic: she wanted a dashing man that was going to sweep her away, great career, wonderful personality, kind, loving etc. I love my step-sister, but she's cute but not pretty, she's fun but sometimes moody, she's super intelligent and talented but not that successful. In her circumstances, she was looking for someone out of her league and this is why she couldn't find anyone. A year later she chose a man who didn't really fit any of her characteristics, except being kind and loving, and he wanted to get married and have kids. They're relationship is not perfect, but no one's is. And the less so with time. 

Not to defend my situation. This might be a bad choice, It's very possible. Most likely! 

[Gaeta]

12 hours ago, DatingMom said:

2) Having had a difficult early life with quite a bit of trauma that I managed to overcome, I've developed kind of extremely high empathy. 

It's ok to be with someone that has suffered and we can relate to them but that suffering needs to be in the past, this man  you're dating is up to his neck in his suffering. That's the dangerous part. When we're suffering we're emotionally handicapped and cannot accurately identify what we're feeling, experiencing.