15 year marriage with 2 kids gone down the drain

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Ah, fair enough. Think about them, though. If you divorce, they will no doubt still want to see you at least some of the time. You'll probably want to figure out something that makes sense for both you AND them, at least as much as possible.

To be honest, I don't want to make life easier for her anymore, she wants to keep me nearby so I can stay with the kids while she enjoys time for herself perhaps meeting other guys, she's still attractive, I know that I will struggle much more than her to get a new partner. I've been trying my best to save the marriage and she's just focusing on her single life, therefore I will have to focus on my single life as well, but I can't do that by living in a room, I need to get my own place and rebuild my life, and I cannot really do that here, I feel like I'm trapped and it does not make me happy. Like I said, everywhere I go reminds of her, I love my kids but I need to GTH out of Dodge.

While I feel responsible for most of the damage, she could have been a better communicator and she could have been more empathetic towards my concerns as a family provider, I felt devalued and that was a trigger for some fights we had. I made the mistake of believing her when she told me that a single therapy session was good enough, then things started to go south again after a few months and she never told me anything, she made it look like she was stressed because of the kids but deep in her heart her feelings were fading because our emotional connection was gone. I'm pretty sure that she will regret this just like the first time she's asked for a divorce, it's just a matter of time when she gets tired of her "single" life, I just feel this in my gut. The problem is, by then I will have certainly moved on, and I won't take her back, and sadly this is how a family gets destroyed. She lives in one of her parent's house, she does not pay rent, she will be ok. She can easily get a guy for NSA sex but it will mess with our kids' minds, so she will avoid that and try to get a serious one instead. 

[mark clemson]

Ok, fair enough. Your assessment of what she may do sounds at least reasonable, and I can understand feeling that you want to focus on "building your new life" rather than "being used" in helping support her in doing that. You tried fishing + gave it a very honest go, now you're cutting bait.

However, consider a) how your kids might feel with you not in their life or only minimally in their lives. It will not be positive for them. Also consider b) how YOU will feel in say 5-10 years time when you have indeed rebuilt your life, but possibly at the price at missing out on being there for much of their growing up. Those are years there is simply no way to get back, and, to the extent your new life was built at the cost of not being there for them, you may indeed come to regret it, particularly if they feel "abandoned" to some extent and start to resent you.

It sounds like you are the kind of person who is most comfortable with a partner in your life. There are many people like that, and I think I'd say I'm one of them too. However, I'd suggest you consider how you can find a balance between the two issues above (rebuilding a new life with a new partner vs. being there for your kids). It will likely not be easy. Assuming you're going to proceed with divorcing, finding this balance along with making your other plans and then conveying your needs to your lawyer is probably the way to proceed.

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Ok, fair enough. Your assessment of what she may do sounds at least reasonable, and I can understand feeling that you want to focus on "building your new life" rather than "being used" in helping support her in doing that. You tried fishing + gave it a very honest go, now you're cutting bait.

However, consider a) how your kids might feel with you not in their life or only minimally in their lives. It will not be positive for them. Also consider b) how YOU will feel in say 5-10 years time when you have indeed rebuilt your life, but possibly at the price at missing out on being there for much of their growing up. Those are years there is simply no way to get back, and, to the extent your new life was built at the cost of not being there for them, you may indeed come to regret it, particularly if they feel "abandoned" to some extent and start to resent you.

It sounds like you are the kind of person who is most comfortable with a partner in your life. There are many people like that, and I think I'd say I'm one of them too. However, I'd suggest you consider how you can find a balance between the two issues above (rebuilding a new life with a new partner vs. being there for your kids). It will likely not be easy. Assuming you're going to proceed with divorcing, finding this balance along with making your other plans and then conveying your needs to your lawyer is probably the way to proceed.

The problem is, I've dedicated my life to this family, things went south mostly due to stuff out of our control such as the covid lockdown. I feel like my effort was all for nothing. Ok, I'm to blame as well but FGS, there was no violence, no cheating, no nasty name calling, just a bad phase of our lives just like many others, and at least I'm learning from my mistakes and trying to become a better husband, partner, friend and father. My wife just gave up too soon again, whilst I'm trying to keep my family intact, she is not, and as a consequence, and because I am so attached I've got no choice but to leave this place for the sake of my mental sanity, I'm sure my kids don't want to see me in a hospital. My kids will know the truth when they get older, they will understand that my reaction is a consequence of her mother's action with the influence of her sister (which is also a single mother) and her divorced friends. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Sand__ra

[mark clemson]

^^ ok, well if you're really going to go the path of walking out of your kids' lives, I'd suggest you have a VERY good reason/explanation in mind, in case you ever want to see them again. While it's certainly not guaranteed, IMO there's a substantial chance they'll resent or possibly hate you. My views/suggestions on this are essentially as already stated above.

[Sand__ra]

Well, going back to our daily lives: I spoke to her today and she's told me that she had stuff to do on her lunch time (1 hour), so I went for a starbucks at our local mall. I was there for 5 minutes and she walks by with some office supplies, is this some voodoo stuff or just a coincidence?? I mean out of 4 exits, she's left the mall where I was at, it is the 2nd time it happens.
Anyway, I wanted to speak to her as I saw her, but I didn't bother as she was in a rush to go back to work, she didn't even see me. I texted her just to let her know that I've seen her just outside starbucks and she's just replied "yes, I was going back to work" clearly showing no interest. To be honest, I'm surprised I didn't see her with another man. The thing is: It's just so weird and sad at the same time watching her almost like a stranger.

[mark clemson]

^^ yes, no doubt it will take some serious getting used to.

It sounds like you intend to "detach" (mirroring what she is doing) but are not quite there yet. If you think it will help, consider seeing a therapist to help with the emotional difficulties this is causing.

There are those who feel that "staying friends" or in contact beyond what's strictly necessary WRT e.g. custody or other arrangements is not helpful. For example, "pining" for the X might emotionally interfere with bonding with a new partner and take away some opportunities. There is logic to that. There is also logic to the idea of "taking a break" from relationships to clear one's head and get one's life in order before seeking a new person. However that "risks" feeling lonely and therefore pining for the X. Different approaches seem to work for different people as we're not all the same in our emotional makeup.

[Sand__ra]

18 hours ago, mark clemson said:

^^ yes, no doubt it will take some serious getting used to.

It sounds like you intend to "detach" (mirroring what she is doing) but are not quite there yet. If you think it will help, consider seeing a therapist to help with the emotional difficulties this is causing.

There are those who feel that "staying friends" or in contact beyond what's strictly necessary WRT e.g. custody or other arrangements is not helpful. For example, "pining" for the X might emotionally interfere with bonding with a new partner and take away some opportunities. There is logic to that. There is also logic to the idea of "taking a break" from relationships to clear one's head and get one's life in order before seeking a new person. However that "risks" feeling lonely and therefore pining for the X. Different approaches seem to work for different people as we're not all the same in our emotional makeup.

Now I know why she became suddenly cold. We have a joint mobile phone account (it's cheaper) and the operator messed up and we ended up with a high bill which has now been credited back. Now she's blaming me for it even though it is not my fault. She's decided to split the accounts even tough we will end up paying more, but it's better this way so we can manage our money in separate ways and avoid further damage to the relationship. She could have told me she wanted to do that, instead she was sneaky and went straight to the operator asking them to remove her from my account (which is fair enough), and then came with a paper for me to sign. 
I believe she has trust issues and she doesn't understand what I went through in order to provide for the family. It's really sad.
 

[Sand__ra]

BIG UPDATE:
I spoke to my counselor today, and she told me that:
- My wife is likely taking me for granted but her genuine actions indicate that she loves me but at the same time she has trust issues.
- She is not speaking to someone else (based on her behavior and limited free time).
- Her actions don't resemble to someone who wishes to divorce.
- I should open the game and tell her that I'm open to reconciliation.
- I should tell her that I have a job offer in another country and that I might have to leave by the end of the year (just to test her reaction).

I think my counselor is more confused than I am 
Basically, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Sand__ra

[mark clemson]

This advice isn't entirely crazy, although I agree it's not clear whether your counselor has a good read on your wife after only 1 session. They might be right, might not.

They might suggest bringing her in at some point to meet her and ask her some questions if that's done in your country (it can be done here in the US).

In a normal, functioning relationship certainly the spouse would typically tell their H/W if they were considering taking a job (particularly a permanent one) in another country. It's a matter for (probably lots of) discussion as it would have a huge impact. In your case with her seemingly half in, half out it's less clear cut what you "should" do. If you're worried that telling her about the job might be the final straw on her leaving, yes that certainly seems like a legitimate worry to me.

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

This advice isn't entirely crazy, although I agree it's not clear whether your counselor has a good read on your wife after only 1 session. They might be right, might not.

They might suggest bringing her in at some point to meet her and ask her some questions if that's done in your country (it can be done here in the US).

In a normal, functioning relationship certainly the spouse would typically tell their H/W if they were considering taking a job (particularly a permanent one) in another country. It's a matter for (probably lots of) discussion as it would have a huge impact. In your case with her seemingly half in, half out it's less clear cut what you "should" do. If you're worried that telling her about the job might be the final straw on her leaving, yes that certainly seems like a legitimate worry to me.

The counselor told me that if my wife gets concerned with that fact that I may possibly leave the country and she "loses" me, then my wife doesn't really want to divorce. Otherwise, if she does not care whether I leave or not, then it confirms she really wants to divorce. 
According to the counselor, the fact that she tells me that she wants no more kiss in the cheek and hugs, and then she hugs me, it indicates that her genuine action is to hug. But rationally, she tells herself "ok, we are separated why am I hugging him?". The counselor told me she's afraid of her feelings because she still holds some resentment, and that's why she's avoiding physical contact.

The problem with following the counselor's advice of opening up the game and tell my wife than I'm open to reconciliation, it will probably backfire as she will take me for granted. If, on the other hand I show no interest in my wife, she will end up moving on. And this is where I'm stuck. Last week, our emotional connection was great and this week is very low. And BTW, she keeps posting FB and IG stories about "positiveness" and "good days will come", etc. I wonder if she's trying to get some sort of reaction out of me. 

I really don't know what to do here. 

[notbroken]

Your kids will only be young once and need you.  Honestly, they will likely be the best thing that ever happens to you in your lifetime. That's hard to see with the stresses of everyday life, when they are young and a lot of work, and especially with the added stress of a likely divorce/split.   Just because your relationship with your wife/stbx is bad absolutely does NOT mean you have to divorce your kids too.   I strongly urge you to reconsider and stay in their lives one way or another.  Be the best Dad you can be under the circumstances.  Don't bash their mom to them (you can do that to your friends, etc).  It just isn't good for them even though you may be 100% correct and justified.  Keep their interests first.   See them as much as possible and be a good influence on their life.  You won't regret that when you are older and they are grown and gone.  I'd bet just about anything on that.  You can find a way to rebuild your life where you are or nearby.   I don't say this to 'come down' on you in any way.  It is based on experience.  You will still be their father long after divorce and you have reestablished a happy life.   

[Acacia98]

@Sand__ra , your situation is a difficult one. It's perfectly understandable that you're as frustrated and angry as you seem to be. I wanted to share my thoughts. But first, I want to clarify that that is all they are: thoughts, not knowledge. My understanding of your situation may be completely wrong.

The impression I get from your description of your wife's behavior is that she has lost interest and is gradually detaching. I also get the impression that the balance is kind of skewed in her favour because you want so much to make things work and she doesn't. In my opinion, she's taking you for granted. She seems to assume you will always be there, pining for her. And, at some level, I think she enjoys it. It makes her feel powerful and desirable. But I think she will eventually move on to someone else. 

She seems to be sending mixed messages, and that is confusing you. But I think that she's not committed to remaining in the marriage. Someone who wanted to save a 15-year marriage would behave very differently. She would want to go for counselling, she would be committed to communicating better. 

There are a few things about your situation that concern me. One is your apparent passivity. You've basically left the ball in her court. It seems like you're waiting for her to take the next step (e.g. to file for divorce). The problem with waiting for her to act is it leaves you powerless and at her mercy. So if she decides to take 2 years to file, you'll sit there, getting increasingly angry because you're stuck in limbo. A second thing that concerns me is that your anger with her will ultimately cost your kids. But your kids are innocent. They need you in their lives. If sitting in limbo is going to make you so angry that you'll essentially walk out of your kids' lives, why not consider the alternative? Play a more active role in determining your future by talking to a lawyer, figuring out what you need to do to remain present in your kids' lives, and filing for divorce.

Stop focusing so much energy on your wife and on fixing that which she doesn't want to be fixed. Focus on your kids. It is possible to walk away from her and to still father them.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Acacia98

[Sand__ra]

29 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

@Sand__ra , your situation is a difficult one. It's perfectly understandable that you're as frustrated and angry as you seem to be. I wanted to share my thoughts. But first, I want to clarify that that is all they are: thoughts, not knowledge. My understanding of your situation may be completely wrong.

The impression I get from your description of your wife's behavior is that she has lost interest and is gradually detaching. I also get the impression that the balance is kind of skewed in her favour because you want so much to make things work and she doesn't. In my opinion, she's taking you for granted. She seems to assume you will always be there, pining for her. And, at some level, I think she enjoys it. It makes her feel powerful and desirable. But I think she will eventually move on to someone else. 

She seems to be sending mixed messages, and that is confusing you. But I think that she's not committed to remaining in the marriage. Someone who wanted to save a 15-year marriage would behave very differently. She would want to go for counselling, she would be committed to communicating better. 

There are a few things about your situation that concern me. One is your apparent passivity. You've basically left the ball in her court. It seems like you're waiting for her to take the next step (e.g. to file for divorce). The problem with waiting for her to act is it leaves you powerless and at her mercy. So if she decides to take 2 years to file, you'll sit there, getting increasingly angry because you're stuck in limbo. A second thing that concerns me is that your anger with her will ultimately cost your kids. But your kids are innocent. They need you in their lives. If sitting in limbo is going to make you so angry that you'll essentially walk out of your kids' lives, why not consider the alternative? Play a more active role in determining your future by talking to a lawyer, figuring out what you need to do to remain present in your kids' lives, and filing for divorce.

Stop focusing so much energy on your wife and on fixing that which she doesn't want to be fixed. Focus on your kids. It is possible to walk away from her and to still father them.

Thanks for your honest thoughts.

She cannot file for divorce due to pending financial issues. Once these are sorted (I would say they will be sorted out by the end of the month) then she can file.
She's making clear to me that she wants to remain single, and the mixed messages are meant possibly to keep me on the back burner. 

My question is: how do I stop her taking me for granted?
I mean, she still sees my stories at FB and IG, but I don't see her stories, I try to show her that I'm busy with my life but she wants me to chase her, although last week she was the one reaching me most of the time, am I missing something here? When we meet, she avoids direct eye contact unless we engage in some meaningful conversation. 

As what regards to my kids, she will be hurt knowing that my kids won't see me often. And she knows it is a consequence of her decision to not try and make things work. Like I said, there was no violence, no abuse, no cheating, this is completely salvageable. However, I will still try to keep myself in the area, but I will still have to test her with the "moving abroad" bluff.

Today she's posted this quote with the title "positiveness" (this is translated):
"Things will not be difficult. The world will drive us to the right place even when we don't believe it's possible. We need to believe. Good things will come, but our hearts need to accept them"

Edited August 18, 2021 by Sand__ra

[Sand__ra]

Another UPDATE:
She's phoned me to speak about the kids but she is clearly upset/angry and I don't know why, she doesn't look happy at all. She avoids opening up and at the end of the phone call I asked her "is everything ok?" and she just replied "I prefer to hung up", she's being a bit mean for no reason, how should I react to this? I'm trying to remain civil, but it's becoming impossible...

Edited September 19, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[Acacia98]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:30 PM, Sand__ra said:

My question is: how do I stop her taking me for granted?
I mean, she still sees my stories at FB and IG, but I don't see her stories, I try to show her that I'm busy with my life but she wants me to chase her, although last week she was the one reaching me most of the time, am I missing something here? When we meet, she avoids direct eye contact unless we engage in some meaningful conversation. 

As what regards to my kids, she will be hurt knowing that my kids won't see me often. And she knows it is a consequence of her decision to not try and make things work. Like I said, there was no violence, no abuse, no cheating, this is completely salvageable. However, I will still try to keep myself in the area, but I will still have to test her with the "moving abroad" bluff.

You can't manipulate her into not taking you for granted. And you shouldn't. That's not how healthy relationships work. 

The healthy thing to do is to accept that she doesn't want to be with you and that she no longer cares enough about your relationship to try. It's hard. It's painful. But you have to go through that process. And then  you change your priorities. You limit communication with her to talking about the kids or divorce logistics. You change your Facebook and IG settings so that she can no longer keep track of what you're posting and so that you stop holding your breath everytime she looks at your stuff, hoping it means something. You stop trying to test her. You stop trying to keep track of who she may be seeing. You set up a formal schedule for spending time with your kids so that you you get a good amount of quality time with them without worrying about who she's seeing during her free time. You focus on eating healthy, getting exercise, getting enough sleep. You start searching for jobs (if relevant) and places to live that will enable you to stay close enough to play a meaningful role in your kids' lives. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Acacia98

[Sand__ra]

16 hours ago, Acacia98 said:

You can't manipulate her into not taking you for granted. And you shouldn't. That's not how healthy relationships work. 

The healthy thing to do is to accept that she doesn't want to be with you and that she no longer cares enough about your relationship to try. It's hard. It's painful. But you have to go through that process. And then  you change your priorities. You limit communication with her to talking about the kids or divorce logistics. You change your Facebook and IG settings so that she can no longer keep track of what you're posting and so that you stop holding your breath everytime she looks at your stuff, hoping it means something. You stop trying to test her. You stop trying to keep track of who she may be seeing. You set up a formal schedule for spending time with your kids so that you you get a good amount of quality time with them without worrying about who she's seeing during her free time. You focus on eating healthy, getting exercise, getting enough sleep. You start searching for jobs (if relevant) and places to live that will enable you to stay close enough to play a meaningful role in your kids' lives. 

Ok, but I just can't understand why she has gone suddenly cold and angry when last week our emotional connection was great. I just don't get it. This is how she wants us to be friends? It's just unbelievable...

[Sand__ra]

2 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

Ok, but I just can't understand why she has gone suddenly cold and angry when last week our emotional connection was great. I just don't get it. This is how she wants us to be friends? It's just unbelievable...

Ok, I'm answering my own question because I found out why she's angry. It is because of unexpected expenses with the kids, and it's her fault. We have to pay for extra days at the nursery because she won't let me take care of the kids at her home, I don't have my own place. Now she is feeling my pain when I used to be the family provider and became anxious due to money problems.
Well, guess what, if we lived together we would have extra €€€€ because I wouldn't be required to pay for a room + separate bills. When she got pregnant of our second child, I told her that returning to our home country would be risky as employment is quite precarious, and this is why we ran out of money and conflicts started to build up, because she didn't take my advice seriously, and here we are...
We are now both employed full time, but she is overwhelmed with the kids and house chores while I have more free time. My salary on its own would be enough to support us and she wouldn't be required to work full time, she is probably frustrated and unhappy with her situation, so she just unloads it on me...
 
 

[clia]

4 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

Ok, I'm answering my own question because I found out why she's angry. It is because of unexpected expenses with the kids, and it's her fault. We have to pay for extra days at the nursery because she won't let me take care of the kids at her home, I don't have my own place. Now she is feeling my pain when I used to be the family provider and became anxious due to money problems.
Well, guess what, if we lived together we would have extra €€€€ because I wouldn't be required to pay for a room + separate bills. 

Where are you living?  Why can't you take care of the kids somewhere other than her house?

Quote

We are now both employed full time, but she is overwhelmed with the kids and house chores while I have more free time. My salary on its own would be enough to support us and she wouldn't be required to work full time, she is probably frustrated and unhappy with her situation, so she just unloads it on me...

No wonder she doesn't want to get back together with you.  Your posts indicate that you view the kids as 100% her responsibility.  I mean, you are ready to leave the country with no consideration whatsoever for your two young kids.  You want her to have them full time.  You view it as "helping her" when both kids were sick.  Newsflash, pal, it's not "helping" to take care of your own children -- it's your responsibility.  I think there is probably a lot you haven't shared about your relationship and why she wants a divorce.      

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, clia said:

Where are you living?  Why can't you take care of the kids somewhere other than her house?
I'm living in a room, there are no conditions to have my 2 kids here. No, I don't have somewhere else unfortunately.

No wonder she doesn't want to get back together with you.  Your posts indicate that you view the kids as 100% her responsibility.  I mean, you are ready to leave the country with no consideration whatsoever for your two young kids.  You want her to have them full time.  You view it as "helping her" when both kids were sick.  Newsflash, pal, it's not "helping" to take care of your own children -- it's your responsibility.  I think there is probably a lot you haven't shared about your relationship and why she wants a divorce.
When I say "helping her" I mean doing some house chores for her, my responsibility is to take care of the kids and not doing house chores for her such as washing the dishes. She cannot be divorced and keep the benefits of a married woman, that's what I meant. 
As what regards to leaving the country, it is the only way I can afford my own place and rebuild my life taking into account our money problems and there is more to come. When we came back to our home country, I was expecting living in a free house, and not going through a divorce and end up living in a room. Besides, I had the consideration of staying close to my kids, it's just a 10 minute drive.
 

 

[Sand__ra]

55 minutes ago, S2B said:

Why don’t you file? Why are you handing HER all of YOUR power? Why does she get to call all the shots?

It looks like she’s having an affair - or is priming the scene for her upcoming affair. I’d bet money on it.

stop being her chump. Move half your money and assets to your name only. She is going to screw you over.

stop being so nice to the woman that plans to ruin your life! 

I can't file due to pending financial issues which need to be solved first.
If she's having an affair it can only be with her boss (married with a 2 year old child, age 50's) because she's got no free time to meet someone else. She spends 40 hours per week with him + 4 female coworkers and it is a real possibility that they might be connecting emotionally, but she's started there only 4 weeks ago. But yes, it can be an upcoming affair.
Last week, she opened up and shared a lot of details about her life and her job, and she told me that her boss whatsapped her (work related stuff allegedly ) when he was on vacation. 
This week he's returned to the office and she's gone cold to me, when I ask her "how's work" she does not open up.
BTW, last week she told me that one of her coworkers told my wife she should go back to the dating market, but my wife told me she's not interested...

I don't have that much money, and I don't have many assets, therefore I'm not really concerned about that.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Sand__ra

[Sand__ra]

41 minutes ago, S2B said:

Why aren’t you - at the very least - taking care of half the chores and the children’s best interest?

you are their parent too! And YOU should be doing at least half of everything that runs a household - including the kids!

wake up! Be a dad! Be a person who takes care of the things that run a home!

DO more! Bringing home a paycheck doesn’t make anyone a good spouse or parent!

Because I don't live there anymore. I told her that I would rather remain with her and the kids but she does not want me to go back home.
 

[Sand__ra]

43 minutes ago, S2B said:

No one says you are forced to be friends. 
start with a boundary that helps you feel safe and happy.

take charge of your future. File for divorce - she is done.

I just want to be friends so I can use that as a way to reconnect with her, like "hey, let's meet up as friends"...

 

[Sand__ra]

Update:

Last weekend she was reaching out to me, happy days. Today I called her to talk about the kids and not only she did not answer my phone call, she hasn't returned it, it's quite unusual and confusing to me. I think she is playing some sort of mind game because I noticed she got upset when I told her that I could not have the kids this weekend afternoons, only mornings (she probably had plans with her coworkers). She's used to my availability per her needs, but I actually had plans for this weekend, do you guys think she's upset and/or jealous due to my unavailability?

[Sand__ra]

BIG UPDATE

Ok, so she has finally admitted that she's experiencing some psychological issues due to heavy workload at her job + having to do the house chores + taking care of the kids, she's even started smoking to relieve her stress. I totally understand where she comes from, but this is unfortunately a consequence of her decision, there is not much I can do, she has decided to exclude me from her life. 
I have told her that I've been offered a job abroad but I said I haven't accepted it yet. She said that I should do whatever my heart tells me to do, what does this mean??

Edited August 25, 2021 by Sand__ra

[stillafool]

4 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

She said that I should do whatever my heart tells me to do, what does this mean??

Basically to do what you want to do.  If that is the job you've been wanting then take it.