15 year marriage with 2 kids gone down the drain

[stillafool]

Look if you think chasing your wife and kissing her butt is going to make her want you back you're wrong.  You see how that approach is not working.  If you really want to see how she feels about you pull away from her and only communicate as it pertains to the children.  Stop asking her if she's seeing someone else but know that she more than likely is.  She really can't admit it to you because she's still your wife.  Let her wonder what you're up to and whether you are seeing someone else.  Get out there and try to have some fun.  Don't tell her what you're doing nor act interested in what she's doing unless it involves your kids.  This is the only chance I see of you having in your situation of having her want you back.

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

Look if you think chasing your wife and kissing her butt is going to make her want you back you're wrong.  You see how that approach is not working.  If you really want to see how she feels about you pull away from her and only communicate as it pertains to the children.  Stop asking her if she's seeing someone else but know that she more than likely is.  She really can't admit it to you because she's still your wife.  Let her wonder what you're up to and whether you are seeing someone else.  Get out there and try to have some fun.  Don't tell her what you're doing nor act interested in what she's doing unless it involves your kids.  This is the only chance I see of you having in your situation of having her want you back.

That makes sense, but last time I pulled away she's gone even colder. Just before it happened, she was actually reaching out to me more than I was to her just before the weekend, and I didn't contact her throughout the weekend but she turned cold and distant on the next Monday.
I noticed that if we have good interactions (we laugh, have fun, are empathetic with each other etc.) she gets more relaxed and approachable, but she clearly holds resentment.
I don't think she's seeing someone else because she doesn't have enough free time for it, but she can be emotionally connecting with her boss because that's where she spends most of her time. 

[Acacia98]

10 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

That makes sense, but last time I pulled away she's gone even colder. Just before it happened, she was actually reaching out to me more than I was to her just before the weekend, and I didn't contact her throughout the weekend but she turned cold and distant on the next Monday.
I noticed that if we have good interactions (we laugh, have fun, are empathetic with each other etc.) she gets more relaxed and approachable, but she clearly holds resentment.
I don't think she's seeing someone else because she doesn't have enough free time for it, but she can be emotionally connecting with her boss because that's where she spends most of her time. 

I have no idea whether she's connecting with her boss. Maybe she is. But if she is and they're not physically involved, it's an emotional affair. In that case, I would still advise you to walk away. An emotional affair is just as damaging to the possibility of your reconciling as a physical one would be. And, truth be told, I'm not sure the word "affair" is even accurate. You guys have split. Technically, she's free to date if she wants to. So are you. Neither of you has to check in with the other about that or give any explanations. So, if I were you, I'd assume she were dating and stop asking about it. I'd also stop answering questions about the same, if asked. My suggestion is that you stop trying to be buddies. Just be polite and be there for the kids.

I also think you should draw up a schedule with the kids that has you spending half the time with them, or as close as you can get to that. You guys really need to be more deliberate about that.

[Wiseman2]

19 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

I have told her that I've been offered a job abroad but I said I haven't accepted it yet. 

Contact your attorney about this. You'll need to legally divorce before you make threats to abandon you wife and kids.

Empty threats like this simply creates chaos and distress for your children in an attempt to rattle your wife's cage.

Put your kids and their wellbeing first.

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Contact your attorney about this. You'll need to legally divorce before you make threats to abandon you wife and kids.

Empty threats like this simply creates chaos and distress for your children in an attempt to rattle your wife's cage.

Put your kids and their wellbeing first.

Whilst I appreciate that, I must make clear that I haven't abandoned my wife and kids, she has abandoned me at one of the worst moments of our life, I was living at her place and I was forced to leave. I have invested a lot in this family (gave up my studies and career just to move back to our home country) just to end up living in a room, it's humiliating. She is aware of the economic situation in our country and the housing cost is ridiculously high, if I was living with them I would not have any rent/mortgage expenses. The court will also consider that I have made my efforts to rent a room close to them and to restore my marriage, but I cannot live in a room forever and I cannot even have my kids here with me. 
And this is not a threat, it is a real possibility and a consequence of her decision to give up too soon. At least I have learned from my mistakes and improved myself as a result. Plus, improving my financial situation is also good for my kids, just because I'll move abroad, it doesn't mean I will stay there forever, I can come back with more money and settle nearby.

[Sand__ra]

OK, apparently my wife (or stbxw) is experiencing mental issues because of the kids. Basically, she has been forced to stay at home with them and cannot go out because they are in isolation due to positive covid contacts at the nursery. There's nothing I can do to help other than shop for my kids. She's having a hard time with them, she's told me that their behavior is terrible and she yells a lot at them. I don't really want to tell her that the divorce/separation is obviously having a negative effect on them especially on my eldest as he's got mild autism, because in her mind they are better than they were before our separation, but the reality is different.

Just before she asked for the divorce a second time, we were in lockdown and the environment was very stressful at home, she has never empathized with what I was going through. Now she's probably experiencing the same anxiety I had back then because I was under pressure as the family provider, and now I tell her that I understand where she comes from because I felt what she is going through now.
What I'm concerned is that she was apparently unhappy back then and she's blamed her unhappiness on me, but I cannot see her happier now and sometimes it looks like she's blaming her frustration on me, although she doesn't say it directly, she just looks upset with her life.

I've also noticed that her behavior towards me depends on her mood: lately she's been texting me on FB messenger and ends the conversation with this emoji  but when the day is not going well, she just ends with "good night". Curiously when we were still in a relationship, she would NOT be in the mood for sex if the kids misbehaved when going to bed, and that really frustrated me, this might be somehow related. I'm starting to think that the reasons for the divorce go deeper than just "falling out of love", at least she admits that she is experiencing mental problems, I wonder if she will eventually realize that I'm not the cause of her unhappiness...

[clia]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:15 PM, Sand__ra said:

 I'm starting to think that the reasons for the divorce go deeper than just "falling out of love", at least she admits that she is experiencing mental problems, I wonder if she will eventually realize that I'm not the cause of her unhappiness...

I very much get the impression from your posts that this is not a "falling out of love" thing.  I get the impression that she has put up with A LOT from you over the years, and has finally reached her limit.  I don't know WHAT exactly she has put up with because I think you aren't being straight with us here, but your entire attitude toward her on this thread -- e.g., leaving her with the kids, talking about abandoning your kids, blaming her for your living situation, your frustration that she didn't want sex when the kids were misbehaving -- leads me to believe that she has been the one primarily carrying the load of your family and she's over it.  And your attitude now hasn't shown her at all that you are any different.  When was the last time you saw your kids?  Why can't you watch them?  Why can't you have them in your room?  Even assuming you can't have them in your room, why can't you take them somewhere else, like a park?  You mention having a job, but it seems you can't even afford to support a family.  You are resentful of her because she won't let you live in her parents' house for free, and you are being forced to actually support yourself?  Are you even giving her financial support for the kids right now?

My question is -- if she were to have you back (which, honestly, I think that ship has sailed), what do you even bring to the table?  Yes, she might be unhappy now (I can imagine being stuck in isolation with two young kids might do that to you), but that doesn't erase that being married to you and living with you also made her unhappy.   

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, clia said:

I very much get the impression from your posts that this is not a "falling out of love" thing.  I get the impression that she has put up with A LOT from you over the years, and has finally reached her limit.  I don't know WHAT exactly she has put up with because I think you aren't being straight with us here, but your entire attitude toward her on this thread -- e.g., leaving her with the kids, talking about abandoning your kids, blaming her for your living situation, your frustration that she didn't want sex when the kids were misbehaving -- leads me to believe that she has been the one primarily carrying the load of your family and she's over it.  And your attitude now hasn't shown her at all that you are any different.  When was the last time you saw your kids?  Why can't you watch them?  Why can't you have them in your room?  Even assuming you can't have them in your room, why can't you take them somewhere else, like a park?  You mention having a job, but it seems you can't even afford to support a family.  You are resentful of her because she won't let you live in her parents' house for free, and you are being forced to actually support yourself?  Are you even giving her financial support for the kids right now?

My question is -- if she were to have you back (which, honestly, I think that ship has sailed), what do you even bring to the table?  Yes, she might be unhappy now (I can imagine being stuck in isolation with two young kids might do that to you), but that doesn't erase that being married to you and living with you also made her unhappy.   

When was the last time you saw your kids?
- In person it was last Thursday, but that's because they are in isolation. Until then, I've been picking them up from the nursery every day.

Why can't you watch them?
- I can watch them, besides picking them up, I take them out every weekday and either Saturdays or Sundays. The problem is that they can't stay with me a full day, when I go outside they get bored after 3 or 4 hours, they just tell me "I wanna go home".

Why can't you have them in your room? 
- Because it is too small, it's just not practical. I usually take them to parks, beaches, etc. but they get bored as explained above.

You mention having a job, but it seems you can't even afford to support a family
- Yes, I can. My income is enough to support the whole family assuming that we have free housing.

You are resentful of her because she won't let you live in her parents' house for free, and you are being forced to actually support yourself?
- I am resentful because I have invested a lot in this family, when I came back to our home country it was because she's convinced me so and assuming we would have free housing.

Are you even giving her financial support for the kids right now?
- Yes I am. I pay child support as per my possibilities and I buy them meals when they are with me.

My question is -- if she were to have you back (which, honestly, I think that ship has sailed), what do you even bring to the table?
Well, I am certainly a changed man, I would make sure that my wife would have more time for herself. Anyways, considering our circumstances I always wanted her to have the choice of having a job or not. The problem is that I struggled to get a job myself during the lockdown. The financial issues also play a big role. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sand__ra

[Sand__ra]

@clia also let me add that you're right, she's put up a lot from me over the years, but the pandemic has made things 1000x worse, we were hit by a perfect storm. However, now I see things from her perspective and learned from my mistakes, I'm not just walking away like it meant nothing to me. If she doesn't want me, my next partner will certainly benefit from my changes.

[Sand__ra]

Another UPDATE

Yesterday we were together because we both wanted to see the first swimming lesson of our eldest son. She's got stressed out with our youngest and I have calmed her down, oddly we ended up laughing together. In the middle of the conversation I suggested we have lunch (we need to discuss a few things without the kids) at a new place because she is off tomorrow (and was today as well) and she's agreed.

Today is the first day back to school, so I called her in the morning to find out how it went with them and she said that I should have texted her instead of calling. The problem here is that she calls me whenever she wants, although I'm not always available. But I understand that she calls because it's practical, I'm not bothered.

In the meantime she's texted me saying that she's decided to not meet up for lunch tomorrow and that I should only call her when absolutely necessary, otherwise I should only text her. She's added that she wants both days off for herself and that I am smothering her. Well, I totally understand where she comes from, but I honestly called her because it's more practical, sometimes I'm driving and use my hands free system, why is she doing this? Is she trying to provoke some sort of reaction?
 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sand__ra

[mark clemson]

^^ sounds pretty controlling, although perhaps there are reasons. You might consider asking why calling isn't ok.

It sounds like you are trying to not let her go/reconcile your marriage BUT she's really not allowing this. She agrees, then considers it a "moment of weakness" (or whatever she's thinking) and changes her mind etc.

Asking her out like this only to be put to the side essentially makes you an orbiter, no? She didn't suggest an alternate day for the lunch, correct? This means she thinks it's a bad idea. IMO she likely feels it's extending emotional connection with you, but her actual intention is NOT to continue that. That's my read on it anyhow, FWIW.

Unfortunately you really can't make someone love you back/want you back, etc. I think at some point you're likely going to have to accept this.

Edited September 3, 2021 by mark clemson

[Sand__ra]

8 hours ago, mark clemson said:

^^ sounds pretty controlling, although perhaps there are reasons. You might consider asking why calling isn't ok.

It sounds like you are trying to not let her go/reconcile your marriage BUT she's really not allowing this. She agrees, then considers it a "moment of weakness" (or whatever she's thinking) and changes her mind etc.

Asking her out like this only to be put to the side essentially makes you an orbiter, no? She didn't suggest an alternate day for the lunch, correct? This means she thinks it's a bad idea. IMO she likely feels it's extending emotional connection with you, but her actual intention is NOT to continue that. That's my read on it anyhow, FWIW.

Unfortunately you really can't make someone love you back/want you back, etc. I think at some point you're likely going to have to accept this.

I've asked her out because I really want to tell her in person that I'm open to reconciliation and that nothing would make me happier for us to become a family again if she's happy with that of course. At this point it seems that she still loves me to some extent but she's resentful and is afraid. I really need to open the game and let her know what I feel and then the ball will be on her court, if she still wants to go ahead with the divorce, then adios, I'll go radio silence.

Also, last Friday (when she sent me this emoji ) she said that we should go to starbucks on her day off. This is why her message confuses me because I don't feel that I am crowding her space with a phone call considering we've been getting along reasonably well, I mean, sometimes she calls me 2-3 times a day. Ok, I understand that she wants to take advantage of her 2 days off without the kids, but she could have been honest and tell me that she wants to be alone. 

I'm aware that she's told one of her best friends that back in our relationship she didn't have time for herself and that has smothered her. Well, of course the bloody lockdown didn't help and having 2 kids behaving like "Dennis, the menace" in a small house 24/7 is really hard work, that's why she's struggling now, she's even told me on a joking manner that she would give them for adoption and I totally understand her, but the fact that she didn't have time for herself is not my fault, I was working. I reckon that eventually she will realize that our kids have put a lot of pressure on our marriage and the fact that she always prioritized them over our relationship has contributed significantly to this situation. Also, she's told me that she is smoking more now. 
 

[Sand__ra]

8 hours ago, S2B said:

She is distancing herself from you. Act accordingly. 
What should I do? 

why couldn’t you support the family during lockdown when housing was free?
Because I was self employed and workload had gone significantly down. Customers could not come to my place, and help from the government was a joke.

what is the money issue? how old are you two?
Debts. We are in our late 30's

 

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

Also, last Friday (when she sent me this emoji ) she said that we should go to starbucks on her day off. This is why her message confuses me because I don't feel that I am crowding her space with a phone call considering we've been getting along reasonably well

Hmm. I don't know then. She's clearly sending mixed signals. I think you may be Plan B, where Plan A would be to either fully separate or possibly be with this boss of hers. But maybe she's not comfortable with fully separating or the boss is really unattainable as more than a flirtation or possibly affair.

Those are conjectures. I don't know how long you are comfortable in "limbo" WRT to what will happen with her. Clearly YOU want her back, but what SHE actually wants appears to be the mystery here. Maybe you can accept limbo for now, but I think at some point you'll want to take a long hard look at what the situation here really is.

If she actually wants to be with you - why separate and go on dates at Starbucks? She could move back in with you right now if she really wanted too and almost certainly is well aware of that. So you have to ask yourself, what's the real deal? Trial separation perhaps? Not sure but it's something.

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Hmm. I don't know then. She's clearly sending mixed signals. I think you may be Plan B, where Plan A would be to either fully separate or possibly be with this boss of hers. But maybe she's not comfortable with fully separating or the boss is really unattainable as more than a flirtation or possibly affair.

Those are conjectures. I don't know how long you are comfortable in "limbo" WRT to what will happen with her. Clearly YOU want her back, but what SHE actually wants appears to be the mystery here. Maybe you can accept limbo for now, but I think at some point you'll want to take a long hard look at what the situation here really is.

If she actually wants to be with you - why separate and go on dates at Starbucks? She could move back in with you right now if she really wanted too and almost certainly is well aware of that. So you have to ask yourself, what's the real deal? Trial separation perhaps? Not sure but it's something.

I don't really know what's on her mind, but at the moment I'm experiencing suicidal thoughts, I feel like I have failed as a result of our financial problems and I feel that I made a bad decision by returning to our home country, at least I wouldn't be broke and stuck here. And now I feel lonely and I'm losing hope on a possible reconciliation. My counselor said that she does not behave like someone that wants a divorce, I don't really know what she wants.  All I know is that she thinks I'm living a happy life because I have more freedom and don't have to deal with the kids which probably irritates her.

[mark clemson]

^^ - well, if you're having suicidal thoughts by all means call a local hotline and get some free counseling as a top priority.  I believe there is a list near the top of the Coping section of the forum, although I'm not sure how up-to-date it is. There are likely some other ways to find your local numbers as well, perhaps googling with your location, etc. Need to address that first IMO.

[Sand__ra]

59 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

^^ - well, if you're having suicidal thoughts by all means call a local hotline and get some free counseling as a top priority.  I believe there is a list near the top of the Coping section of the forum, although I'm not sure how up-to-date it is. There are likely some other ways to find your local numbers as well, perhaps googling with your location, etc. Need to address that first IMO.

Thanks. I'll be ok in a few hours, this happens sometimes but I admit that this is particularly hard because I'm getting to the point where I feel that I am losing hope, it's been almost 5 months on and off and we're going round in circles. 

[mark clemson]

^^ okay. Don't hesitate to seek help if and when you need it!

[Sand__ra]

21 hours ago, mark clemson said:

^^ okay. Don't hesitate to seek help if and when you need it!

Thanks, I'm much better now after speaking to my family. My sister told me that my wife does not want to come back at the moment, but doesn't want to let me go either, basically she's confused and doesn't know what she wants, but my sister suspects that she wants me to chase her like a dog so she can say "ok, let's get back but now you are my doormat". My sis told me that if I move on and ignore my wife, she bets that my wife will crawl back unless she is in love with someone else. 

Today my wife called me to talk about her day with the kids but she's being evasive, she avoids talking about her frustrations with the kids unlike a week ago. Sometimes it feels like she behaves like I am the dumper or she's just angry because she's overwhelmed with the kids and blames me for it.

How should I act if she keeps distancing herself?

[Sand__ra]

In the meantime she's posted this quote on her FB stories (translated from local language):
"there comes a time in life where you need to stop worrying about certain things and certain people. You take a deep breath, and get out of the life of those things and those people and move on"

[mark clemson]

I'm really not sure what to tell you. Your sister may be right, or her "bluffs" and distancing may turn out to be just another step in a (real) slow fade while she fishes for something better or whatever she is doing. So, dunno.

It would be nice to perhaps tell her to stop trying to emotionally manipulate you (if that's what she's doing) in an effort to be top dog in the marriage or what have you. I would hope your children's happiness and stability would mean more than that. But people who do this sort of thing rarely tend to turn around and "play straight" about it IMO, so I suppose that's rather a unlikely hope.

Given that you don't wish to walk away yourself, your situation seems to defy simple answers. However, everything changes so something is likely to break the holding pattern sooner or later. Your job offer is one potential item, there may be others that occur unexpectedly or (on her side) that you are not aware of. I would NOT give yourself the luxury of assuming things will "go your way" with her when the current equilibrium eventually breaks down. Might, might not.

[Sand__ra]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:39 PM, mark clemson said:

I'm really not sure what to tell you. Your sister may be right, or her "bluffs" and distancing may turn out to be just another step in a (real) slow fade while she fishes for something better or whatever she is doing. So, dunno.

It would be nice to perhaps tell her to stop trying to emotionally manipulate you (if that's what she's doing) in an effort to be top dog in the marriage or what have you. I would hope your children's happiness and stability would mean more than that. But people who do this sort of thing rarely tend to turn around and "play straight" about it IMO, so I suppose that's rather a unlikely hope.

Given that you don't wish to walk away yourself, your situation seems to defy simple answers. However, everything changes so something is likely to break the holding pattern sooner or later. Your job offer is one potential item, there may be others that occur unexpectedly or (on her side) that you are not aware of. I would NOT give yourself the luxury of assuming things will "go your way" with her when the current equilibrium eventually breaks down. Might, might not.

Thanks for your overview. I'll walk away as soon as I tell her in person that I am open to reconciliation. I'm honestly confused though, every day I get new signals: for example, now she mirrors me on messenger and whatsapp when we text, we're clearly connected but it looks like she's trying hard to convince herself.
She's had 2 days off for herself, she usually tells me about her personal life but this time she has not told me about her activities which means that for some reason she doesn't want me to know. I really don't like the idea of spying, it's wrong, but if I had confirmation that she's into someone else and actually has been meeting that person physically, then I would certainly walk away and get on with my life. 

[Wiseman2]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:55 PM, Sand__ra said:

My soon to be ex wife (36) fell out of love with me and asked for a divorce and we've been living in separate places since April. 

Sorry this is happening. Unfortunately, separating and filing for divorce doesn't seem too promising.

What were the conflicts/arguments about?

Make sure you hire a good attorney asap. Don't stick your head in the sand with theories.

At this point (separated) both of you can date others and your lives are none of each other's business, except the kids and when to file.

Sadly she just lost interest. Read up on "walk away wife".

[Sand__ra]

11 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this is happening. Unfortunately, separating and filing for divorce doesn't seem too promising.

What were the conflicts/arguments about?

Make sure you hire a good attorney asap. Don't stick your head in the sand with theories.

At this point (separated) both of you can date others and your lives are none of each other's business, except the kids and when to file.

Sadly she just lost interest. Read up on "walk away wife".

Multiple things, but mostly money and the fact that I became somehow needy and clingy, but I have worked on that.
As what regards to the money, things are getting better as well. However I think that she still needs a lot of time for herself, I was thinking about swapping roles for a week, I would stay at her place with the kids and she would stay in my room, she really needs to be alone for a while and think things through, and the pressure from the kids and her family (she lives right next to her parents) is not helping, I don't see any happiness in her.  
Anyways, I'll have to meet her in person very soon and I will tell her that I'm open to reconciliation.

[Sand__ra]

UPDATE:
Ok, so we've had lunch together (she has suggested it, not me), and we actually had a great time considering that she is quite stressed about her job. 
It looks like she is aware that I'm open to reconciliation. I didn't tell her directly but I've said to her "look, if my counselor asked you if I'm open to reconciliation, what would you tell her?" and my wife replied "I would say to your counselor that you're open to reconciliation, that's what I think". 

Also, I've said to my wife that my counselor has suggested that we attend a session as a couple so my wife can vent about the relationship in a safe environment. However my wife has refused by saying that we already spoke a lot about the relationship and that she feels safe with me i.e. not afraid of telling me what she feels.

As what regards to this emoji  she's told me that it's just a "normal kiss" and not romantic interest (I cannot say whether she's bluffing or not, but when we were together she would end her text messages with this same emoji).

She has also suggested that one of the major problems is that I didn't give her enough space when she asked just before her first attempt to divorce (I was stupid just like many others, I know, I thought that asking for space meant divorce, and I acted selfish back then). I think that I'm getting the whole picture now, she felt trapped in the marriage and was forced to leave. She has admitted that the lockdown has strongly influenced that. 


 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Sand__ra