Toxic Behaviour Signals-discussion

[Fox Sake]

Just a quick discussion on toxic and narcissistic behaviour. Who knows, maybe it will even help someone.
I’ve bumped into 2 people in my life previously who have shown all these similar traits. 
 

I’m trying to understand these behaviours, what leads to them and how/if they could be confronted. It can be hard to make someone toxic see how they behave or even take the time to self reflect away from their ego and defences, or take others feelings into account. Similarly, it can be hard for someone putting up with that to recognise or understand being treated this way by someone else. I know the first time I experienced it I didn’t understand. Here is what I understand now;

Projection - The time when a person projects their insecurities on to you. Usually a manipulative tactic used as means of control , point-scoring or winning. This can also include projecting your feelings as their own  

“Double Bluff Twist/Reverse ” - (don’t know the technical term) When a person has already been toxic or manipulative.  You tell them how it’s made you feel, they twist it round and make you feel like you’re the one who has to apologise and you’re invalid. Sometimes before you have even finished explaining how you feel, they will see where you’re coming from and project your feelings as their own .
      You’re now the one who has upset them!! Even tho this wasn’t ever the intention of the conversation, they made it that way. 
 

Accountability - signs of not being unable to take accountability for their own actions. Even when it’s clear they were at fault. This is sometimes tried to be pushed under the rug with a generic “sorry” and no cause into “why?”
 

Cognitive Empathy - Them being able to see things your way, and usually using it to their advantage.(As opposed to Empathy where you can feel what the other person is telling you, usually comes with far more understanding !) 

Manipulation- Using your own feelings hostage against you. Bringing you things that are from an irrelevant time in the past into an argument. 

Argument Over- The moment you make a valid, unarguable or morally well standing point ,they make half arsed apology taking very little accountability and shut the conversation down for any further discussion…probably due to a realisation of guilt. Breadcrumbs for you or a small breakthrough for them? 

Is there ever a breakthrough? How do you get through to people like this? 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Fox Sake

[Alpacalia]

2 minutes ago, Fox Sake said:

How do you get through to people like this? 

You don't.

[Fox Sake]

9 minutes ago, Alpaca said:

You don't.

Fair point. I just like to believe everyone can be communicated with in way they’ll understand, and almost anyone is capable of change if they want, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part (in practice it’s been futile , as you pointed out)  It’s a shame cos that destructive behaviour is stopping them from growing emotionally 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Fox Sake

[Miss Spider]

7 hours ago, Fox Sake said:

How do you get through to people like this? 

[ ] 
 

But yea they’re not doing it to be fair and communicative . They’re doing it to get the result they want and win. That’s what it’s about when people employ these methods and they ultimately don’t really care they have to manipulate the situation or harm the person to do it, so it’s no use trying to reason with them

 

A breakthrough would require wanting to change on their part and maybe some therapy if they’re really bad 

Edited August 10, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
violent

[Alpacalia]

1 minute ago, Fox Sake said:

Fair point. I just like to believe everyone can be communicated with in way they’ll understand, and almost anyone is capable of change if they want, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part (in practice it’s been futile , as you pointed out)  It’s a shame cos that destructive behaviour is stopping them from growing emotionally 

It seems if they have toxic behavior and narcissistic tendencies I'm pretty sure the best and most kindest environment for them is in a professional setting.

 

[balletomane]

3 minutes ago, Fox Sake said:

Fair point. I just like to believe everyone can be communicated with in way they’ll understand, and almost anyone is capable of change if they want, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part (in practice it’s been futile , as you pointed out)  It’s a shame cos that destructive behaviour is stopping them from growing emotionally 

I believe the same about people's capacity to change. However...just because people are capable of changing does not mean that you specifically are the right person to help them change, and if there is a way to reach everybody, it doesn't mean that you can (or should!) be the one to try.

My ex was abusive. He also happened to be diagnosed with a severe mental illness, which meant I felt obliged to care for and support him, on the basis that he "couldn't help" his violence. It took me some time to realise that I wasn't helping him or myself by remaining in his life. Maybe he will recover one day. I hope so. But it was never my job to bring that about.

Another thing that makes me cautious is that there seems to be a tendency (especially online) for people to pathologise behaviour that is unpleasant, but not necessarily anything out of the ordinary. Literally everybody seems convinced that they've met 'narcissists' or 'toxic people'. Personally I avoid that vocabulary when thinking about people, partly because I could easily be judging them unfairly, but mostly because I don't need to label someone in order to work out whether I want to spend time with them or not. There are one or two people I find really irritating, and although I'm polite when we meet, I don't go out of my way to spend time with them. That's my call. They don't have to be toxic narcissists for me to make it. It's perfectly reasonable as it is.

[Weezy1973]

28 minutes ago, Fox Sake said:

Is there ever a breakthrough? How do you get through to people like this? 

You can’t. Most of these types of behaviors are rooted in extreme lack of self-worth or self-loathing. They twist the world so they’re not at fault for anything as a defense mechanism. 
 

They have to realize their behaviors are harmful and seek therapy to change, which for many of these folks is in itself never going to happen because to admit something is wrong with themselves is what they’re constantly trying to avoid in the first place.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Weezy1973

[elaine567]

Life is too short and most do not have the skill set necessary to deal with people with toxic behaviours.
Even therapists have to give up sometimes.
Your job is to find people who enhance your life, it is NOT your job to try to get through to people who for whatever reason are making your life more difficult.

if "toxicity" is following you around, then sometimes looking at your own behaviour can be helpful.
Why are you allowing such people into your life or even is there something about you or how you behave, that triggers such bad behaviour in others?

[Fox Sake]

52 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Life is too short and most do not have the skill set necessary to deal with people with toxic behaviours.
Even therapists have to give up sometimes.
Your job is to find people who enhance your life, it is NOT your job to try to get through to people who for whatever reason are making your life more difficult.

if "toxicity" is following you around, then sometimes looking at your own behaviour can be helpful.
Why are you allowing such people into your life or even is there something about you or how you behave, that triggers such bad behaviour in others?

I agree about finding those that enhance your life. I believe a partner should compliment who you are as a person and you bring out each other’s best sides.
 

I wouldn’t say it follows me … I don’t usually attract that into my life at all! Given that there are only 2 people I have met who show all the same qualities and personality as each other, I don’t think that’s bad going at now 36! Maybe I’m wrong. They did both have other ongoing mental health issues and some baggage from past relationships. 
 

I try and always objectively look at myself , and see where my own faults are. I have many! 
I’m constantly  trying to improve and if someone points out something in me that they saw , I would be quick to set my pride aside and look at where that came from and what I can do about it. Takes practice tho. 
 

I honestly don’t think I trigger that from other people. I’m quite understanding and will take peace over war. I think I’ve just had bad luck in not noticing sooner 

[Fox Sake]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

You can’t. Most of these types of behaviors are rooted in extreme lack of self-worth or self-loathing. They twist the world so they’re not at fault for anything as a defense mechanism. 
 

They have to realize their behaviors are harmful and seek therapy to change, which for many of these folks is in itself never going to happen because to admit something is wrong with themselves is what they’re constantly trying to avoid in the first place.

What happens when they are masked behind extreme confidence and ego? That is actually just a ruse?   
I wonder why some people want to confront themselves? 

[Fox Sake]

1 hour ago, balletomane said:

I believe the same about people's capacity to change. However...just because people are capable of changing does not mean that you specifically are the right person to help them change, and if there is a way to reach everybody, it doesn't mean that you can (or should!) be the one to try.

My ex was abusive. He also happened to be diagnosed with a severe mental illness, which meant I felt obliged to care for and support him, on the basis that he "couldn't help" his violence. It took me some time to realise that I wasn't helping him or myself by remaining in his life. Maybe he will recover one day. I hope so. But it was never my job to bring that about.

Another thing that makes me cautious is that there seems to be a tendency (especially online) for people to pathologise behaviour that is unpleasant, but not necessarily anything out of the ordinary. Literally everybody seems convinced that they've met 'narcissists' or 'toxic people'. Personally I avoid that vocabulary when thinking about people, partly because I could easily be judging them unfairly, but mostly because I don't need to label someone in order to work out whether I want to spend time with them or not. There are one or two people I find really irritating, and although I'm polite when we meet, I don't go out of my way to spend time with them. That's my call. They don't have to be toxic narcissists for me to make it. It's perfectly reasonable as it is.

I agree with you on everything here. 
I also agree that it’s not anyones place to try and change anyone else. I guess to make it more clear I’m just wondering if it was actually ever worth waiting for change in them or even confronting it. Behind certain behaviours there is still a nice person there who showed hope. 
 

im sorry to hear about your ex. That sounds like an awful lot to go through for you and I’m glad you’ve come out the other side,  stronger and wiser. 
 

I’m also very aware of people getting pigeon holed online, and let me assure you that isn’t my style! I’m the opposite.  However when someone shows certain emotional patterns that are consistent with negative past experiences, and they leave you feeling drained, I’ve learned to be aware that they usually go in the same direction as each other. Labelling these things is just a stab at context and I’m in no way qualified to be diagnosing anyone! 
 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Fox Sake
Clarity

[Fox Sake]

1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said:

Swift kick in the crotch
 

But yea they’re not doing it to be fair and communicative . They’re doing it to get the result they want and win. That’s what it’s about when people employ these methods and they ultimately don’t really care they have to manipulate the situation or harm the person to do it, so it’s no use trying to reason with them

 

A breakthrough would require wanting to change on their part and maybe some therapy if they’re really bad 

This is ultimately what this thread was about. 
I think it’s answered quite a lot for me already between you and others here and what I’ve written about how I’m feeling is rather telling. I need to avoid going any further in my current situation as this is not a healthy situation to be in, and it doesn’t look like it’s going to change.

[glows]

I do not seek to change any person. I only accept what they are or what they show themselves to be or I don't accept it and be on my way.

Some of those behaviours would strike a healthy individual as weird or strange or that something is very off. I don't think the need to identify them is very important but it is interesting to some. Personally, I have no interest in it. 

[Fox Sake]

11 minutes ago, glows said:

I do not seek to change any person. I only accept what they are or what they show themselves to be or I don't accept it and be on my way.

Some of those behaviours would strike a healthy individual as weird or strange or that something is very off. I don't think the need to identify them is very important but it is interesting to some. Personally, I have no interest in it. 

Okay we are getting somewhere.
I wonder why I feel the need to identify them? 
… I think of myself as a healthy individual for the most part. I’m scared. Scared of making a mistake, scared of getting stuck in something that isn’t healthy. Scared of being too hasty. I post and I ask and now I have more questions about myself than the situation.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Fox Sake

[glows]

6 minutes ago, Fox Sake said:

Okay we are getting somewhere.
I wonder why I feel the need to identify them? 
… I think of myself as a healthy individual for the most part. I’m scared. Scared of making a mistake, scared of getting stuck in something that isn’t healthy. Scared of being too hasty. I post and I ask and now I have more questions about myself than the situation.

It is ok to make mistakes. Only know the risks you're taking and have the ability to dig yourself out or create solutions to any problems. 

[Miss Spider]

32 minutes ago, Fox Sake said:

This is ultimately what this thread was about. 
I think it’s answered quite a lot for me already between you and others here and what I’ve written about how I’m feeling is rather telling. I need to avoid going any further in my current situation as this is not a healthy situation to be in, and it doesn’t look like it’s going to change.

You don’t need to be in this situation, foxy.  You should be having the time of your life with a partner!! You should be tearing up, going on adventures, banging all the time.  Your biggest problem should be whether to bang in the kitchen or in the shower , not how to psychoanalyze someone in order to fix all their issues. You don’t need that. You’re so sweet though  

 

Say no to toxic people. Say no to LDR . Say yes to fun times with cool people who give the same amount to you as you do them. Don’t settle !!! You’re the dopest!! 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[smackie9]

3 hours ago, Fox Sake said:

Just a quick discussion on toxic and narcissistic behaviour. Who knows, maybe it will even help someone.
I’ve bumped into 2 people in my life previously who have shown all these similar traits. 
 

I’m trying to understand these behaviours, what leads to them and how/if they could be confronted. It can be hard to make someone toxic see how they behave or even take the time to self reflect away from their ego and defences, or take others feelings into account. Similarly, it can be hard for someone putting up with that to recognise or understand being treated this way by someone else. I know the first time I experienced it I didn’t understand. Here is what I understand now;

Projection - The time when a person projects their insecurities on to you. Usually a manipulative tactic used as means of control , point-scoring or winning. This can also include projecting your feelings as their own  

“Double Bluff Twist/Reverse ” - (don’t know the technical term) When a person has already been toxic or manipulative.  You tell them how it’s made you feel, they twist it round and make you feel like you’re the one who has to apologise and you’re invalid. Sometimes before you have even finished explaining how you feel, they will see where you’re coming from and project your feelings as their own .
      You’re now the one who has upset them!! Even tho this wasn’t ever the intention of the conversation, they made it that way. 
 

Accountability - signs of not being unable to take accountability for their own actions. Even when it’s clear they were at fault. This is sometimes tried to be pushed under the rug with a generic “sorry” and no cause into “why?”
 

Cognitive Empathy - Them being able to see things your way, and usually using it to their advantage.(As opposed to Empathy where you can feel what the other person is telling you, usually comes with far more understanding !) 

Manipulation- Using your own feelings hostage against you. Bringing you things that are from an irrelevant time in the past into an argument. 

Argument Over- The moment you make a valid, unarguable or morally well standing point ,they make half arsed apology taking very little accountability and shut the conversation down for any further discussion…probably due to a realisation of guilt. Breadcrumbs for you or a small breakthrough for them? 

Is there ever a breakthrough? How do you get through to people like this? 

You don't...it's a mental disorder. Their brain/thought process is so different from ours. That's why people are so bewildered at their behavior...they don't think like us, who have a moral compass, core values, etc.

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, Fox Sake said:

What happens when they are masked behind extreme confidence and ego? That is actually just a ruse?   
I wonder why some people want to confront themselves? 

Not really a ruse, but it doesn’t matter. You still should get out. And the vast majority of people don’t want to confront themselves. Because it’s hard. People that end up confronting themselves have often hit “rock bottom”, so it’s really that or die.