What just happened? I need your views.

[ExpatInItaly]

11 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

We have fallen in love

After just a few weeks?

Oh honey, no. This is for teenagers, not grown adults. Even under nromal dating circumstances, a couple is not "in love" after a few weeks. You have created quite the love story fantasy in your mind, which is concerning in and of itself. 

As I said before, you come across as quite naive and child-like in your mindset about dating. Like a girl who's never really been in love or had a boyfriend before, which is surprising given that you have been married. Was your husband your first boyfriend?

Edited August 13, 2021 by ExpatInItaly

[ExpatInItaly]

8 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I´m considering meeting the wife somewhere public

Do you honestly believe she will want to talk to you?

Get real.

 

[RebeccaR]

15 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

After just a few weeks?

I went back and read OPs first post. She clearly had a crush on this man since she returned to the workforce last year after being a SAHM. As if chatting at lunch means they’re developing an intimate connection. That’s why he was so surprised when she revealed her feelings - because he didn’t see it as more than coworker chitchat.

[stillafool]

9 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

They do not sleep together. Thay haven' t for months. It would be ridiculous for her to start playing top model or cooking his favourite dishes after having asked him to leave a month and a half ago. It would be too obvious for him she is trying to manipulate him because she knows he is in love with someone else. For all I know, it would take tremendous pretending abilities to do that. I just went into desperation mode during my ex H´s affair. I could not find my sex goddess or kitchen goddess at all...

You have no idea what they are doing in their house and in their bed at night no matter what he tells you.  It isn't ridiculous that his wife would do all of the above and more if she wants to hold onto her marriage.  He wouldn't see her actions as manipulation but of a wife fighting for her marriage.  You're the one with pretending abilities and desperation.  She is not you and I doubt she acts anything like you so just because you couldn't find your sex goddess doesn't mean her's isn't on point.  He isn't going to be telling you anymore about their sex life but if she's willing he will do it.

[heartwhole2]

Hysterical bonding (when the primary relationship is threatened and it spurs lots of sex) isn't a conscious decision. I remember having found out about the PA and being at my kids' activity. I went outside to talk to my sister on the phone. Then I went inside and there was a single man inside who wasn't even my type. I was crazily hopped up with sexual desire; I felt like I could smell this stranger's testosterone. I could have jumped him right there! This translated into lots of frantic sex at home. It wasn't a conscious decision; as a mother of young kids and a person with health issues, my libido hadn't been great (though to be fair, I had almost completed weaning off my SSRI when DDay happened, so that may have contributed). This was an otherworldly impulse, certainly nothing I could drum up on command. Thankfully I'm a practical sort of person and did not feel any shame for my uncontrollable desires.

But whether BW is experiencing HB or not (or, like all of us, just a human doing her best with her own circumstances and strengths and weaknesses) doesn't matter. What matters is that the man you want to have a sexual relationship with whether or not he's married is waiting to see if he can save his marriage before he lets that happen. You were happy to have sex behind her back. He wants her permission first. It's all up to her. 

The problem isn't that BW isn't following your script or behaving how you think she should. The problem is that this is a stupid love triangle. The love triangle is to blame, not the one person who didn't consent to being in it. 

Remember, there are plenty of available men you could fall for. There is plenty of fun sex and falling in love to be had! But just, you know, pick a guy who doesn't have a wife first. Not because you're a saint, but because you're not sadistic. You want to avoid the headaches and heartbreak that having a third party impact your relationship will bring.

[vla1120]

15 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I haven´t seen his marriage first hand, I know what he tells me, and I believe him.

....said every OW who has been manipulated and lied to by their MM - and you're not even IN a relationship with this man. You played the "pick me" game and he chose his wife.

[heartwhole2]

12 hours ago, glows said:

I think you are reliving the past and the breakdown of your marriage in reverse as a form of comfort. Maybe it’s one of those things you have to see to the end in order to realize what it all meant.

I do think there's something to this. Not entirely the same, but I know I am interested in affair stories so much because I want to make sense of something big that impacted my life. Maybe I think if I can help someone avoid infidelity, I can save a proxy for myself from the heartache I went through. And if not, maybe I can humanize all the characters involved and have a fuller picture. And maybe you think that if you can go through this process in the place of the OW instead of the BW, you can come out the "winner" (because yay, everyone wants to win herself a cheater!) in this scenario. Maybe there's an unconscious pull to play out your story and have a different ending.

As we all know and as you have pointed out, OP, there's no playbook. Not every story goes the same way. Still, many of these situations follow a similar arc because they are made of the same ingredients . . . denial, escapism, getting caught up in the moment, opportunity, etc. I can't tell you how many stories I've read where two married, heterosexual people are having an affair, and the MW leaves her husband and the MM stays with his wife. It seems to happen all the time. And I feel like your story is following a similar arc (considering that your relationship with MM buoyed you as you were ending your marriage). The MW so often seems to expect the MM to feel and behave exactly as she is, and yet . . . he stays. I could get into all sorts of gendered and cultural theories for why that happens so frequently but that would be quite the essay! Needless to say, APs who wind up together are the exception, not the rule. One exception is long-lost sweethearts, who tend to fare better than the rest. At least those relationships were tested for compatibility in the real world at an earlier point, and it's hard to compete with idealized first love.

[mimic2021]

36 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I do think there's something to this. Not entirely the same, but I know I am interested in affair stories so much because I want to make sense of something big that impacted my life. Maybe I think if I can help someone avoid infidelity, I can save a proxy for myself from the heartache I went through. And if not, maybe I can humanize all the characters involved and have a fuller picture. And maybe you think that if you can go through this process in the place of the OW instead of the BW, you can come out the "winner" (because yay, everyone wants to win herself a cheater!) in this scenario. Maybe there's an unconscious pull to play out your story and have a different ending.

As we all know and as you have pointed out, OP, there's no playbook. Not every story goes the same way. Still, many of these situations follow a similar arc because they are made of the same ingredients . . . denial, escapism, getting caught up in the moment, opportunity, etc. I can't tell you how many stories I've read where two married, heterosexual people are having an affair, and the MW leaves her husband and the MM stays with his wife. It seems to happen all the time. And I feel like your story is following a similar arc (considering that your relationship with MM buoyed you as you were ending your marriage). The MW so often seems to expect the MM to feel and behave exactly as she is, and yet . . . he stays. I could get into all sorts of gendered and cultural theories for why that happens so frequently but that would be quite the essay! Needless to say, APs who wind up together are the exception, not the rule. One exception is long-lost sweethearts, who tend to fare better than the rest. At least those relationships were tested for compatibility in the real world at an earlier point, and it's hard to compete with idealized first love.

Wow. That is written so beautifully. Thank you so much for sharing. 

Sometimes when I read comments like these I can feel how much stands behind these words. I am sorry you had to go through this. But I agree, OP seems to relieve her own trauma in the subconscious hope to come out as the winner. 

With many traumatized people, they tend to find themselves in unhealthy, abusive and dysfunctional dynamics. It’s familiar to them, the emotional roller coaster, the instability. They tend to relieve their own trauma and hope that this time it has a different ending. 

I assume it must have hurt OP pretty badly when she read the comment where someone highlighted that her ex-husband decided for his AP and now her AP decides for his wife. OP needs to do a lot of healing.

And OP if you read this here: It is not your fault. It is not a weakness to need healing. I assume you’ve been treated badly for a long time and now you think this is all you deserve. You don’t - I just think that you’ve haven’t experienced healthy love yet. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by mimic2021

[stillafool]

18 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

They are not having sex. He felt like he was betraying me when they did so he stopped that.

Why would you care if they're having sex or not.  You said on the first page of this thread you weren't expecting him to leave his wife.  So why would you want to meet her in a park?  Why do you continue to even talk about her?   Just be happy with your little arrangement with him and forget what's going on in their life.

[Iwantthisformyself]

8 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

After just a few weeks?

Oh honey, no. This is for teenagers, not grown adults. Even under nromal dating circumstances, a couple is not "in love" after a few weeks. You have created quite the love story fantasy in your mind, which is concerning in and of itself. 

As I said before, you come across as quite naive and child-like in your mindset about dating. Like a girl who's never really been in love or had a boyfriend before, which is surprising given that you have been married. Was your husband your first boyfriend?

I understand that for some people falling in love is for teens. It´s a limiting belief, though. People can fall in love at any age, and the process is quite similar at all ages... Dating and falling in love are not the same, being married and falling in love are not the same. I married my husband after dating considerably, believe me. But I have only fallen in love twice in my life. This is one of these two times.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Iwantthisformyself

[Iwantthisformyself]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

Why would you care if they're having sex or not.  You said on the first page of this thread you weren't expecting him to leave his wife.  So why would you want to meet her in a park?  Why do you continue to even talk about her?   Just be happy with your little arrangement with him and forget what's going on in their life.

I don´t care, actually. He was very clear when he shared that they had had sex that it felt like SEX, in an almost clinical way. I did not start this expecting him to leave his wife, and I believe I would not have heard much of her - I´m sure I wouldn´t have asked- had he not started to talk about it, which happened only almost a month after we started seeing each other.

I am considering meeting her, because this is what he wants. He needs my help landing his marriage safely before he can end it in better terms than "I´m leaving because I fell in love ith someone else".  I believe I can give him that.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Iwantthisformyself

[ExpatInItaly]

3 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I understand that for some people falling in love is for teens.

You totally misunderstood.

Allow me to clarify: I meant that falling in love after a few weeks is for teens. Not falling in love in gereral. 

[Iwantthisformyself]

2 hours ago, mimic2021 said:

I assume it must have hurt OP pretty badly when she read the comment where someone highlighted that her ex-husband decided for his AP and now her AP decides for his wife. OP needs to do a lot of healing.

It kind of did, but it is not accurate. He hasn´t chosen his wife. He has chosen to end his marriage as amicably as possible and he needs my help doing that.

[Iwantthisformyself]

Just now, ExpatInItaly said:

You totally misunderstood.

Allow me to clarify: I meant that falling in love after a few weeks is for teens. Not falling in love in gereral. 

And where is the line in the book of "Human falling in love" that says how long it should take?

[ExpatInItaly]

4 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

And where is the line in the book of "Human falling in love" that says how long it should take?

Most mature and emotionally-adjusted adults would understand that it takes longer than 3 weeks. 

The risk for you is that you are getting carried away with a fantasy that you largely manufactutred in your own mind. So it's going to hurt you that much more when  Fantasy meets Reality. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by ExpatInItaly

[Iwantthisformyself]

2 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I do think there's something to this. Not entirely the same, but I know I am interested in affair stories so much because I want to make sense of something big that impacted my life. Maybe I think if I can help someone avoid infidelity, I can save a proxy for myself from the heartache I went through. And if not, maybe I can humanize all the characters involved and have a fuller picture. And maybe you think that if you can go through this process in the place of the OW instead of the BW, you can come out the "winner" (because yay, everyone wants to win herself a cheater!) in this scenario. Maybe there's an unconscious pull to play out your story and have a different ending.

As we all know and as you have pointed out, OP, there's no playbook. Not every story goes the same way. Still, many of these situations follow a similar arc because they are made of the same ingredients . . . denial, escapism, getting caught up in the moment, opportunity, etc. I can't tell you how many stories I've read where two married, heterosexual people are having an affair, and the MW leaves her husband and the MM stays with his wife. It seems to happen all the time. And I feel like your story is following a similar arc (considering that your relationship with MM buoyed you as you were ending your marriage). The MW so often seems to expect the MM to feel and behave exactly as she is, and yet . . . he stays. I could get into all sorts of gendered and cultural theories for why that happens so frequently but that would be quite the essay! Needless to say, APs who wind up together are the exception, not the rule. One exception is long-lost sweethearts, who tend to fare better than the rest. At least those relationships were tested for compatibility in the real world at an earlier point, and it's hard to compete with idealized first love.

I would have never been involved with a married man before. I did feel attracted to people in other relationships before in my life, but I always thought it was totally out of bounds. It served no purpose for me to have this mindset. Nobody - partocularly my ex- thought it was unfair to me when it came to having an affair with him. 

 

I understand the statistics, but you know, according to them, my husband should have chosen our marriage, only he did not. I have busted the statistics once. Maybe I can be the exception again...

 

I totally get your "humanizing all the charaters". I totally view her as a human being, and as you can imagine, I can picture what she might be thinking or feeling quite easily. I just wish she did not meka the same mistake I made: try to save a marriage that was already dead, stay and humilliate herself, and not accept that when it is over it is over. I wish she could get the hint that when your man is in love with someone else, it is over, and move on. For her sake as much as for ours. 

 

[heartwhole2]

9 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I am considering meeting her, because this is what he wants. He needs my help landing his marriage safely before he can end it in better terms than "I´m leaving because I fell in love ith someone else".  I believe I can give him that.

On 8/11/2021 at 4:22 PM, Iwantthisformyself said:

So, he wants the best possible outcome for us all. He needs some time to figure out what to do about his marriage, time to let his wife decide what she wants to do, and time for me to think whether I want to be invloved in this. The first three weeks (before she found out) were pure bliss, but the last few days have been a little messy and no one can think clearly at this point. So he suggested we change the nature of our relationship just for a while. He wants to continue to see me and talk to me ( he cannot imagine his days without hearing from me or spending time together) but if we continue to meet behind his wife´s back, it is all going to blow up under our noses, and not only will she be hurt: our children and ourselves will get hurt too. ....  If his marriage turns out to be beyond repair, well, it will end for reasons other that us/me. And that is way more fair to everyone, including me. We can then pursue our relationship without harming anybody, especially ourselves. If it does not finish - and he talked about his son a lot here explaining his own reasons for continuing to be married- than we can still be in each other´s life. He says he does not need us to have physical intimacy to feel intimate with me.

These two accounts of what he has said completely contradict one another.

[Pumpernickel]

6 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I am considering meeting her, because this is what he wants. He needs my help landing his marriage safely before he can end it in better terms than "I´m leaving because I fell in love ith someone else".  I believe I can give him that.

Now this is a joke though, right? If you’re serious right now, please explain how you think you’re going to help a full-grown man in his 60s end his M on “better terms”? I find this very condescending, esp towards his wife. Also - how can you feel love and respect for a man who needs your help in ending his marriage?

But before I get ahead of myself here: did he actually ask you to come to his house and meet his wife, in order to end his marriage more respectfully? Or what exactly did he say? I don’t think he wanted you to meet his wife so he can get a more amicable separation. That’s your interpretation. I really think your imagination is running wild, generally speaking.

[ExpatInItaly]

13 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I am considering meeting her, because this is what he wants.

That's up to her, not you. Nor him. 

And if you genuinely believe a sit-down is going to happen with her, I have oceanfront property in Kazakhstan you might be interested in. 

[spiderowl]

29 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I don´t care, actually. He was very clear when he shared that they had had sex that it felt like SEX, in an almost clinical way. I did not start this expecting him to leave his wife, and I believe I would not have heard much of her - I´m sure I wouldn´t have asked- had he not started to talk about it, which happened only almost a month after we started seeing each other.

I am considering meeting her, because this is what he wants. He needs my help landing his marriage safely before he can end it in better terms than "I´m leaving because I fell in love ith someone else".  I believe I can give him that.

But WHY does he want you to meet his wife?  It does not make sense.  All this stuff about not seeing you as a witch, etc., none of it makes sense.  There is no need for her to meet you and vice versa, just because you happen to be close to the same guy. He can end his marriage without you meeting his wife.  His wife does not need you as a friend.  WHO exactly needs this meeting?

[BaileyB]

29 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I totally view her as a human being, and as you can imagine, I can picture what she might be thinking or feeling quite easily.

Obviously not, if you are considering meeting the woman and introducing her to your children. That decision alone shows that you don’t have any understanding of what she may be thinking…

33 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I just wish she did not meka the same mistake I made: try to save a marriage that was already dead, stay and humilliate herself, and not accept that when it is over it is over. I wish she could get the hint that when your man is in love with someone else, it is over, and move on. 

You are making two assumptions - first, that he is in love with you and second, that the marriage is over and he wants to end it. This is not true. He has told you that this is not true. He has said what you share can not be described as a relationship. It’s three weeks of “puppy love.” You haven’t even had sex yet. He told you that you are better suited for friendship. He has chosen his wife. She is where she should be - where he wants her to be. The person who needs to get the hint and move on is you - lest you humiliate yourself when he does not leave his wife and family. 

[BaileyB]

31 minutes ago, spiderowl said:

All this stuff about not seeing you as a witch, etc., none of it makes sense. 

It’s also frankly not true. (to be very clear, I’m not calling you a witch). As the woman who has aspirations to have a serious relationship with her husband - a relationship that would ideally (if OP had her way) require the end of this woman’s marriage, you do present a threat to her marriage. Meeting to show her that you are a “friend,” not a “foe” is ridiculous.  The idea that you could meet at the park with your children in an attempt to assure her that there is no threat from you is not only untrue, it’s manipulative and deceitful.

Edited August 13, 2021 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

1 hour ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

landing his marriage safely

Where are you getting these ideas? This is not a thing.

[RebeccaR]

1 hour ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

He has chosen to end his marriage as amicably as possible and he needs my help doing that.

It’s his marriage. Why on earth does he need your help?

[SoulCat]

You are proving yourself to be quite the perfect OW material.
He is spoonfeeding you all sorts, and you are swallowing it whole.
He said she asked him to leave.
He said they aren't sleeping in the same bed.
He said he's only there for his child.
He said they're not having sex.
He said their marriage is over.
He said, he said, he said.
And you believe all of it as if it were the gospel truth.

If that wasn't enough, he is already doing the push & pull, hot & cold nonsense.
The weird sex date, the not texting much, the 'let's just be BFFs'.
And after some heavy-duty mental pretzelling, you somehow make it fit your narrative.
Everything he says or does, you accept it, you normalise it and you cling on for dear life.
 
Now he has come up with this insane idea of you meeting with his wife and you are actually considering going along with it.
Not only that, you are seriously contemplating involving your children in this utterly tone deaf plan.

You are lowering your (already pretty low) standards, bit by bit just so you can hang on to this love-of-the-ages romance novel you have written in your head.

You are clearly on a mission, and nothing any of us will say is going to sway you.
That's fine, non of us have any skin in this particular game. 
But you do, a lot of skin.
You better strap in tight, it's gonna be one heck of a bumpy ride.
 
 

Edited August 13, 2021 by SoulCat