What just happened? I need your views.

[heartwhole2]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Did your lover send this from her account? His whole story sounds like nonsense and crazy-making drama.

Does he have cognitive issues or possibly alcohol-related early dementia? He's in his 60s, no?

That may explain his bizarre behavior such as thinking meeting you will 'inspire' her to divorce him. (but he never mentions going to an attorney).

Much of his logic seems impaired and stories seem incoherent.

I don't think MM made the inspired comment. OP has a habit of recounting what really happened and then misinterpreting and misremembering it. He told her the purpose of them meeting was so his wife could calm her fears, and he said he wouldn't have an affair with the OP and was trying to see if his marriage could be saved. He hoped they could be friends, and then if the marriage failed, they could explore being something more. He was very clear about this.

And then suddenly OP was talking about how he just needed her help to land the plane smoothly so that he could get an amicable divorce and be with OP. But he never said this, unless OP has kept this conversation that would vindicate her to herself. He said he understood if being friends was too difficult for OP, but they couldn't have an affair and he was going to try to fix his marriage. And then *if* it couldn't be fixed, sure, maybe they would get to have a relationship then.

I do think MM is wishy washy and conflict avoidant, but I think most of the confusion comes from OP having a thesis (we have a great love that will conquer all!) that she is unwilling to deviate from even when there are no supporting facts.

[RebeccaR]

7 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I don't think MM made the inspired comment.

But maybe he sent the FB friend request, was Wiseman’s point

[RebeccaR]

8 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

And then suddenly OP was talking about how he just needed her help to land the plane smoothly so that he could get an amicable divorce and be with OP. But he never said this,

Yes, OP’s elaborations are quite fanciful. This is one of the reasons readers are doubting the veracity of this thread

[Iwantthisformyself]

9 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

Did he validate our romantic relationship today?
Did his wife understand that he and I are an item?
Was I treated with respect?
Did MM's priority seem to be advancing our relationship or downplaying it?
Which woman did MM act like a partner to?

Ok, so here I go.

Let me tell you that most of your predictions where you were predicting an atomic bomb dropped on me turned out to be wrong. We spent an hour and a half in the park took the kids to some games, bought them something to eat and sat together and had general conversation in a civilized manner. We must have lloked like two families having fun to anyone who saw us.

But there was so much going on, that I do not know where to begin.

I picked your questions, Heartwhole2, as they were at the back of my mind most of the time:

He did not validate our romantic relationship today. The tone was friendly, he referenced a couple of conversations we had had in fron to his wife ( like, "Remember whan I told you the other day. blah blah) I do not know why he did that. Let me tell you that he did not validate theor marriage either. They were civil to each other, you could say "nice", but that was it. No signs of affection to one another form any of them. Just "good old couple" distant after 24 years of marriage taking their son to the park. The kids did great, by the way. They played together some, and separately some.

I don´t think I could say she understood we are an item, but there was an awkward moment. Most of the time we talked about trivial things, and we were coming and going to check on the kids. But for one - first- single moment she and I were alone and she said something like: I´m sorry if you felt intimidated by my FB request. It was not my intention. I said: That´s ok, no worries, and then one of the kids came and that was that. The second awkward moment was when I mentioned my kid´s therapist and she said something along the lines of: Yes. When thins are difficult in a marriage, the kids suffer, and they will show it in every possible way. My son is not doing great himlsef, but I´m sure you already know that. I said I did not. It was the first things that came to my mouth. Then he arrived and we changed the topic of conversation. The third - and last- awkward moment happened as they were leaving: She said goodbye to me and said: So, we finally met.X has told me you´ll be visiting us with your kids. So I guess I´ll be seeing you again. I can see it has been good to him that you are close. I now see why. And then she left. He came right behind her and thanked me for doing this, out his hand on my shoulder, and left as well.

As you can see, I was treated with respect at all times by both of them.

I cannot answer whether he was advancing our downplaying our relationship. SHE seemed to be under the impression that this afternoon meant we are just going to be friends and then she´ll see me again. I find that a bit irritating, to be honest. She can´t simplys step in and declare everything over and give us the "friends" label just like that. It felt unfair and unrealistic. Of course, I did not say anything to her. 

Did he act like a partner to me? well no, honestly. But I did not expect him to in front of her. Did he act like a partner to her? Yes, in a very routine, practical way, you could say so. 

 

I need to think now. I really need to make sense of this meeting....

[RebeccaR]

3 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

She can´t simplys step in and declare everything over and give us the "friends" label just like that. It felt unfair and unrealistic.

It seems like a normal thing for a wife in this weird situation to do, honestly 

Also, and I cannot stress this enough - even though she acknowledged problems in the marriage, problems in a marriage 1) don’t mean they are divorcing 2) don’t mean he’s in love with you 3) even if they do divorce, he may not choose you as his next partner. You are zooming from point A to point Z. Please be kind to yourself because I’m worried you are going to suffer unnecessarily when things don’t go the way you planned.

[stillafool]

So he never made it clear to her that you guys are now a couple?  I thought that was what this meeting was about.  This just seems like a MM introducing his wife to a femaie co-worker she had suspitions about and he was letting her know you guys are really just friends.  He didn't even leave with you.  When she said "Us" about your upcoming visit it was clear that they are together,  and will be together.

Edited August 14, 2021 by stillafool

[RebeccaR]

8 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

she said something like: I´m sorry if you felt intimidated by my FB request.

Interesting that he told her that. Why would he tell her the reaction you shared with him, presumably in confidence?

It appears to me they met up with you to present a united front. He has probably told her everything about how you propositioned him. He may even have told her about the condoms - maybe they even cooked that up together.

One thing is for sure - anything you tell him, you should presume it will be getting back to her.

[stillafool]

12 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I mentioned my kid´s therapist and she said something along the lines of: Yes. When thins are difficult in a marriage, the kids suffer, and they will show it in every possible way. My son is not doing great himlsef, but I´m sure you already know that. I said I did not.

He has told her you're a divorced mom and he's been nice to you.  He introduced you to her to make sure she knows she has nothing to worry about as you are just a friend.

[Starswillshine]

Just now, stillafool said:

He has told her you're a divorced mom and he's been nice to you.  He introduced you to her to make sure she knows she has nothing to worry about as you are just a friend.

Yep and probably that she needs friends and support. And so the wife steps up to help a fellow woman and mom through this hard time. 

[BaileyB]

37 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

Let me tell you that he did not validate theor marriage either.

Sure he did - he went home with her… 

37 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

But for one - first- single moment she and I were alone and she said something like: I´m sorry if you felt intimidated by my FB request. It was not my intention.

You felt uncomfortable, and he shared that with his wife. Clearly, they talk to each other and he shares personal details about you with the woman. They present a untied front - you got thrown under the bus.

37 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

She can´t simply step in and declare everything over and give us the "friends" label just like that. It felt unfair

That’s sounds exactly like what she did and good for her! She had the upper hand and she played it well. She managed to put you in your place without even saying anything. As they say, she killed you with kindness. That is a smart and strong lady!  

Edited August 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

37 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

SHE seemed to be under the impression that this afternoon meant we are just going to be friends and then she´ll see me again. I find that a bit irritating, to be honest. She can´t simplys step in and declare everything over and give us the "friends" label just like that. It felt unfair and unrealistic. Of course, I did not say anything to her. 

She was under the impression that you two are "just friends" because he told her that.  If you are irritated at anyone it should be him for not making it clear to his wife in front of you that he is your boyfriend.  He just treated you like a random co worker who he felt sorry for and included you  and your kids in their outing.

Edited August 14, 2021 by stillafool

[mimic2021]

11 minutes ago, stillafool said:

She was under the impression that you two are "just friends" because he told her that.  If you are irritated at anyone it should be him for not making it clear to his wife in front of you that he is your boyfriend.  He just treated you like a random co worker who he felt sorry for and included you  and your kids in their outing.

OP is he even your boyfriend? Has he told you?

[stillafool]

51 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

She can´t simplys step in and declare everything over and give us the "friends" label just like that. It felt unfair and unrealistic. Of course, I did not say anything to her. 

Why didn't you say something to her about the reason you were there?  It was just as much your opportunity as it was MMs to make your point clear as to why you were there and what you are to her husband.   What was unfair is that MM lied to you about what this meeting was about.  What was unrealistic were your expectations.  His wife had no clue of his lie to you.

[spiderowl]

I think the OP should be commended for being honest on here.  She is not seeing things how many of us see them but that is why people come here, for different perspectives.  

I get the impression that, in real life, you do pick up on feelings, OP.   You sum things up very well and the significant things of a meeting, conversation are there.  Unfortunately, people get involved in extra-marital relationships, whether by their own instigation or by chance meeting, and then both can be truly torn.  I think you have been picking up on this. It is easy to go from knowing the other person feels something for you to building it into more.

I suppose the important thing is where will this take you?  What are the chances this will work out to your liking?  MM often give up their mistresses if they have to choose.  Of course, those MM will be unlikely to let the W know they are 'choosing/have chosen' because if they did she would probably dump him forthwith.  He will do it quietly, edging the OW out of his main sphere of life, if he feels it has come to crunch time.

I get the feeling this MM is like that. He enjoys time with you, has felt tempted, but at the end of the day he won't risk his marriage. He might foolishly end up risking it, if he underestimates his W, but it will be by accident or 'Freudian slip'.

I am sorry you ended up in this really because you've clearly been hurt and know what that feels like.  Lots of OW fall in love and end up believing their MM puts them first - or would do if it wasn't for their W who they can't leave for a variety of plausible-sounding reasons.  Sadly, a lot of OW are let down.

I guess this was the first real connection you have felt in a long time.  A connection feels so rare and so important.  It is something we starve for.  You could find that connection elsewhere.  You will find it elsewhere.  Such a connection is not only possible with MM, which may be what you think at the moment.  You don't have to grasp onto this one seeming opportunity for the closeness and intimacy you have missed.  There will be others, hopefully not married.

I would caution you to avoid MMen, however sweet and interested they seem.  They often come across as fun, more relaxed, more interested, than single men.  Single men come across as more sex-orientated and less concerned with love, romance and manners - this is because sex has become their focus and priority while being alone. It's a shame but it puts women off and I think this is why women are often drawn to MM and then let down badly.  A MM is only ever going to be half there and the rest of the time you will be waiting and wondering what the hell is going on.  You need someone who is free to be with you wholeheartedly, someone for yourself.

Edited August 15, 2021 by spiderowl

[DingDang]

So, wait. This meeting was intended to snow the wife into believing that you're just a friend? Is that what you (he?) meant when you said he needed your assistance in calming her down so he could "land his marriage safely"? That's not how I (and many others) took what you said. I don't think that's the way you understood it, either. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by DingDang

[mark clemson]

FWIW, I agree with what I think is the general consensus that this is a "hide in plain sight" type move. You didn't really get thrown under the bus IMO unless you were going into this with unrealistic expectations to begin with. It sounded to me like you weren't (or perhaps you were conflicted).

There seemed to be tacit acknowledgement from the W that there was something between you and MM, AND that you were going to be hanging around. That's how I'd interpret the third comment. Not necessarily "placing" you into the only friend category, nor giving permission for you to be with her husband (certainly that would be a big ask), but something in between those two.

Possibly she is ok with "connection" so long as he doesn't actually screw you - a bit hard to say. Some men seem to think this way, from what I read here it's rarer with women.

Seems like you could follow up with him for clarification on "status" if you feel the need to. My thought is he wants to continue the affair as an affair and primarily as "connection"/an EA. But like everyone here I'm an external observer and only seeing your posts.

Frankly this could have gone a lot worse. I was more than half expecting a "blowup" of some kind. Possibly his wife is ok with "looking the other way" while you and he have whatever between you, but that is still a ways from being confirmed here IMO.

[DingDang]

Quote

The tone was friendly, he referenced a couple of conversations we had had in fron to his wife ( like, "Remember whan I told you the other day. blah blah) I do not know why he did that. 

If they were conversations that you had via text or email, she probably saw them. 
If they were in person and they were innocuous, he's likely trying to portray to her that your relationship is harmless.

Quote

I´m sorry if you felt intimidated by my FB request. It was not my intention. 

Could be that she didn't want you to think that she's implying that you're up to something with her H. She might really be clueless. Or she might not be. I can almost guarantee that her gut is talking to her. 

Quote

SHE seemed to be under the impression that this afternoon meant we are just going to be friends and then she´ll see me again. I find that a bit irritating, to be honest. She can´t simplys step in and declare everything over and give us the "friends" label just like that. It felt unfair and unrealistic. Of course, I did not say anything to her.

What do you mean "declare everything over"? What did she declare as over?

Can you expand on the "unfair and unrealistic" part?

[heartwhole2]

2 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I really need to make sense of this meeting....

I understand that this whole situation is unsettling.

2 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

SHE seemed to be under the impression that this afternoon meant we are just going to be friends and then she´ll see me again. I find that a bit irritating, to be honest. She can´t simplys step in and declare everything over and give us the "friends" label just like that. It felt unfair and unrealistic. Of course, I did not say anything to her. 

Remember, I anticipated you would feel this way after the meeting:

11 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

She doesn't have to justify anything to you. If this had happened with your ex . . . if he had made trying to work things out with you his priority, if he had refused to have sex with the OW, if he said he wanted the three of you to be friends and to prove to you that she wasn't a threat . . . would you have owed the OW anything? Would it have been "unfair" of you to try to save the marriage? She doesn't have to answer to you for flip-flopping on whether to work on the marriage to the person who tried to have a secret affair with her husband behind her back. She doesn't have to have a good reason, or any reason. It's not your business just because you're trying to snag her husband.

And then, if we follow the same pattern you've been looping through, tomorrow you will have forgotten your initial assessment and will declare that this advanced your relationship.

BW is not the problem. You didn't even know they were maybe kinda separated when you propositioned him. The problem is that he has a spouse and that will always be a wildcard that you can't control. The problem is that he's not willing to go behind her back or leave her. So your mind grasps at, "Yes! If she would only leave him, then he'd be willing to give me a shot!" But there are plenty of things he could do that he's not willing to do to be your lover.

This isn't empowering. Remember how you said you were calling the shots and MM understood because your ex is so controlling? Well can you say you are really the one calling the shots here? If you were, would you irritated at BW for standing between you and what you want?

I agree that MM seems to think an EA can be passed off as a friendship without guilt or long term harm to his marriage. But he has been really, surprisingly firm about not having sex. You should be with someone who would move mountains to be with you. You should be with someone who can't contain his excitement to be with you. You are not satisfied with what you're being offered and keep hoping you'll be offered more. Don't stick around out of fear that you can't find anyone else or anything better.

Look I stayed on hold with an airline for four hours recently. I kept thinking I would finally get through as I got sleepier and sleepier. "But what if they were just about to come on the line when I hang up?" So I stayed up past when I should have. Don't get tricked by the sunk cost fallacy. Don't compromise what you want and deserve because you think maybe after another chess move or two you'll have him where you want him. MM and BW both seem to be several steps ahead of you. Her comment regarding future visits . . . so this wasn't enough? You need to keep being couple friends or else you don't get to have playdates with MM?

Have you tried just asking MM?
-Does BW know that we kissed? Does she know we almost had sex?
-How is working on your marriage going?
-Do you think we will remain just friends, or can I hope for more any time soon?

Remember, the tenor of his answers we will be encouraging. He'll be sweet; he'll be gentle. But if he doesn't say, "Yup, she knows all about the physical side of our relationship" and "Yup, I think you and I will be together fully soon" then you have your answer. "I hope" or "Maybe after BW and I try" or "She knows we are special to one another" or anything else that is vague and non-specific means no, no, no. Anything that is not a clear, equivocal yes backed up by action is a no.

[heartwhole2]

P.S. I would have been embarrassed that he told her about your reaction to her FB request. Is she going to think you're insecure or desperate or something? I would not have wanted that detail shared. And you probably didn't expect he would share it, right? You don't have the secure bubble that you want with him. He keeps making sure BW can be in the bubble as much as she wants.

[BaileyB]

On 8/12/2021 at 9:12 PM, Iwantthisformyself said:

The way I see it, he´s trying to end his marriage in the least harmful way possible. He´s giving her time to process and accept the fact that their marriage is over. He believes our meeting can help her calm down a bit and think more clearly.

It sounds like she was pretty calm today. Do you think she got the reassurance she needed today? Or perhaps, you are the one needing reassurance…

[ExpatInItaly]

This man is not trying to end his marriage, OP. 

The opposite, in fact. You are blind to it, but if he were genuinely trying to end it, he wouldn't be introducing you to his wife and trying to calm her concerns. This "meeting" was about maintaining the status quo at home, not about "validating" the relaitonship you think you're in.  It is quite clear that this was all for her benefit, not yours. Nothing about ending his marriage peacefully but rather keeping his marriage afloat. 

I actually think his wife probably requested this meeting after her suspicions were raised, and because he's afraid of losing her, he went along with it to show her that you and him are not an item and you're not a threat to his marriage Even if that's not true, he is working to keep her happy Not you. 

You have said before that he doesn't want to be separated from his child - this man in his 60s, yeah? So how old is this child, exactly?

Edited August 15, 2021 by ExpatInItaly

[Iwantthisformyself]

13 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

 He has probably told her everything about how you propositioned him. He may even have told her about the condoms - maybe they even cooked that up together.

I don´t think this is the case. I can´t tell exacltly why. 

[Iwantthisformyself]

13 hours ago, stillafool said:

What was unfair is that MM lied to you about what this meeting was about.  What was unrealistic were your expectations.  His wife had no clue of his lie to you.

I believe he kept it general and a bit ambiguous. My gut feeling is she had no clue.

[heartwhole2]

1 minute ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I don´t think this is the case. I can´t tell exacltly why. 

Since he's mentioned to you several times that you haven't crossed any firm boundaries so you should revert to being friends, I think this distinction is important to him. I agree that he hasn't told BW too much because he doesn't want to scare her off. BUT . . . since he told her about you reaction to the FB request, it may be that he's going to tell her more going forward, that they've agreed that it's OK for him to have friends but only if that friend is a friend of the marriage.

[Iwantthisformyself]

11 hours ago, DingDang said:

If they were conversations that you had via text or email, she probably saw them. 
If they were in person and they were innocuous, he's likely trying to portray to her that your relationship is harmless.

Could be that she didn't want you to think that she's implying that you're up to something with her H. She might really be clueless. Or she might not be. I can almost guarantee that her gut is talking to her. 

What do you mean "declare everything over"? What did she declare as over?

Can you expand on the "unfair and unrealistic" part?

The conversations were in person. He doesn´t think the is snooping into his phne or anything. Not her type.

 

I do believe she might be clueless about the true nature of our relationship.

 

By unrealistic I mean: ell, game is over. Here comes the wife and declares you as friends only. You can´t turn off people´s feelings and diffuse a situation like ours at the snap of your fingers.