Is it true that men do not find women attractive who are career ambitious?

[Allupinnit]

My H loves that I have a solid career and talking about our days is important to us.  My having a career in addition to his also affords us a lot of luxuries like international travel.  We don't have children.

I also like that we can talk about our financial goals (I love investing), crypto, current events, books we read, etc. and he is my equal in all of those ways, including our earning power.

He was married to an attorney before me, too.

So no, not all men think A WOMAN SHOULD BE lesser in that regard in order to be attractive to a man.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Allupinnit

[vwisme]

2 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

So no, not all men think A WOMAN SHOULD BE lesser in that regard in order to be attractive.

I want to say this with the disclaimer that I have NOTHING against SAHM. They are a blessing to their families and very much needed. 

But I could not imagine marrying someone who isn't as ambitious/career/goal oriented. I want to talk about books, investing, changing our world and hopefully the world. 

[Taramere]

4 hours ago, jspice said:

Your girlfriend clearly sees something in you that others don’t. And you see something in her that you don’t see in a woman who has career ambitions. “Feminine” is usually code for “doormat” in these parts. 

It certainly can be.  I think on a more positive note it also gets associated with qualities like empathy, nurturing etc.  It shouldn't since there are plenty of empathic, nurturing men out there...but I suppose old stereotypes die hard.

What drives me mad is the expectation that a woman should just slip into a particular "soft, feminine" stereotype when men are around because that's what they like.  I remember years back I had a very difficult, quite aggressive (when he and his friends had been drinking) guy living in the flat above me.  I had a few confrontations with him, and eventually we reached quite a civilised, adult and friendly understanding that involved him being more considerate and me being more tolerant.

The boyfriend I had at the time was on a contract that took him abroad.  When he came back, he decided to take issue with my neighbour who was being a bit noisy.  I said "I'll go up and speak to him" but my then bf was determined to take the "man's role" - and apparently me dealing with the situation would make him feel unmanly.  I said to him "what do you think happens when you're not here? "  His reaction made it pretty clear to me that how I dealt with things when he wasn't there wasn't of interest to him.  I was not his concern.  Him feeling like a man was his concern.  

Whether or not a woman is with a man, there are going to be times she has to pull herself up when she really doesn't feel like it and deal with a tough situation in circumstances where looking soft and feminine for men is right at the bottom of the list of priorities.  And when we're expected to suddenly assume a demure, feminine demeanour if there happens to be a man around who feels like doing the heavy lifting that we have to do ourselves 99 times out of 100, it's irritating.  And it feels a bit infantilising.

[SumGuy]

9 hours ago, ironpony said:

...but I now wonder if, it's some inner primordial genetic thing built inside, where I as a guy would prefer a woman with not as much of a career, without even realizing it strangely?

What do you think out of curiosity?  Thank you for any input on it!

I think for certain men it is a huge turn off, but in general not at all.   

Sure there are still those who think a woman's place is in the home but otherwise what they really don't like is that career means less attention for them, and they may be expected to take on a true equal share of house and child chores.  Granted as well there are men who are intimidated and fell "less than" if she has more job status or makes more than him.  There may be other reasons, but my advice to my daughters why would you want any man like those three...saying you are very much into your career could actually be a very good filter.

[jspice]

5 minutes ago, Taramere said:

It certainly can be.  I think on a more positive note it also gets associated with qualities like empathy, nurturing etc.  It shouldn't since there are plenty of empathic, nurturing men out there...but I suppose old stereotypes die hard.

What drives me mad is the expectation that a woman should just slip into a particular "soft, feminine" stereotype when men are around because that's what they like.  I remember years back I had a very difficult, quite aggressive (when he and his friends had been drinking) guy living in the flat above me.  I had a few confrontations with him, and eventually we reached quite a civilised, adult and friendly understanding that involved him being more considerate and me being more tolerant.

The boyfriend I had at the time was on a contract that took him abroad.  When he came back, he decided to take issue with my neighbour who was being a bit noisy.  I said "I'll go up and speak to him" but my then bf was determined to take the "man's role" - and apparently me dealing with the situation would make him feel unmanly.  I said to him "what do you think happens when you're not here? "  His reaction made it pretty clear to me that how I dealt with things when he wasn't there wasn't of interest to him.  I was not his concern.  Him feeling like a man was his concern.  

Whether or not a woman is with a man, there are going to be times she has to pull herself up when she really doesn't feel like it and deal with a tough situation in circumstances where looking soft and feminine for men is right at the bottom of the list of priorities.  And when we're expected to suddenly assume a demure, feminine demeanour if there happens to be a man around who feels like doing the heavy lifting that we have to do ourselves 99 times out of 100, it's irritating.  And it feels a bit infantilising.

Agreed. I appreciate when a partner cares about me like making sure I got hime safely or such, but I’m the same as you. I take care of what needs to be taken care of, man or no man. 
 

And I agree with your point about being tough at work  because you have so many years of experience as a solicitor (right?)

I’m the equivalent of a barrister in my country, and you have to be tough, not because you want men to think you’re “feminine “ but because the job requires it. 

[jspice]

13 minutes ago, vwisme said:

I want to say this with the disclaimer that I have NOTHING against SAHM. They are a blessing to their families and very much needed. 

But I could not imagine marrying someone who isn't as ambitious/career/goal oriented. I want to talk about books, investing, changing our world and hopefully the world. 

I do think it’s erroneous to equate a SAH parent with someone who can’t talk about it and understand the things you mentioned above. 

[SumGuy]

5 hours ago, jspice said:

Men who are secure in what they have to offer someone wil be proud of their partner’s accomplishments just as she will be proud of his. 

Women can’t win with men because they’re described as “prickly” when competing at work but if they decide to let a man take care of them they’re a gold digger. 

So women should work but not move too far up the career ladder to make men feel better about themselves. No thanks. 

Women should do whatever the hell they want and insecure men should leave the ambitious career women alone. Easy. 

I don’t want a man who isn’t well-educated. I don’t want someone who works in retail or as a personal trainer or who works in a factory. He won’t fit into my life and I won’t fit into his. I don’t  have the energy to prop up someone’s ego because I’M too ambitious. How about he’s not ambitious enough.

these days more women care less about what men think. We don’t exist because men validate our existence so men can find whatever the hell they want attractive. 

Some women will acquiesce to men’s tastes and others won’t. You men should choose accordingly. 

Exactly!  Just had to repeat.  I love the bold part.  

Sadly even dating coaches for women still hold onto she need to not come across as accomplished or so successful;, placate his ego, if she wants to find a man.  How about finding a man you don't need to placate?  Isn't that more of a "real man"?  

[Taramere]

2 minutes ago, jspice said:

Agreed. I appreciate when a partner cares about me like making sure I got hime safely or such, but I’m the same as you. I take care of what needs to be taken care of, man or no man. 
 

And I agree with your point about being tough at work  because you have so many years of experience as a solicitor (right?)

I’m the equivalent of a barrister in my country, and you have to be tough, not because you want men to think you’re “feminine “ but because the job requires it. 

Yes.  I'd had a previous job that required the kind of strengths that I think poppyfields is talking about...but that was in a unionised environment where if somebody really got out of order/abusive with you, you had some sort of legal recourse.  As you'll know, it's very different once you get into courtwork.  I had a few situations in my legal career where a male opponent or colleague was right in my face being abusive to the point where I felt like my physical safety might be in jeopardy.  I don't think people necessarily realise that this really does happen, until it happens to them. 

I'm  not saying it's impossible to seek recourse in those situations, but it's only possible at great personal cost - and you only need to go through that once to know you don't want to go through it again.  The last thing I'm ever going to be in a situation like that is soft, sweet and feminine.  A couple of times I responded by getting really aggressive back, in a sort of "throwing caution to the winds, even if this guy does go so far as to hit me" but being aggressive back in a situation like that can leave you hyped up for days.  So the priority is to deal with it by standing your ground, staying calm and refusing to let the other person intimidate you out of doing your job. Being soft and sweet doesn't feature though.  That's the last thing I'm going to feel like being in a situation where somebody is very blatantly getting in my face and intimidating me.  And it happens in law.  In courtwork.  Not regularly, but it's a profession that does have its share of abusers in it.

[divegrl]

OP- just from my personal experience I found this to be very true. 
 

When I had a very lucrative job, not a single guy would ask me out. I was still very soft, caring and compassionate around men I found attractive…. But I think on a subconscious level they wanted a women they could provide for. 
 

When, I experienced a turn of life events, and found myself struggling financially…. Men came out from everywhere to date me. I was still the same caring, giving and loving woman… the only change was my career. 
 

This is just my personal story, and I kinda wish it didn’t play out like this. But it is, at least my reality, when dating men. 
 

Have a beautiful day friend. 

[Gaeta]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

Sadly even dating coaches for women still hold onto she need to not come across as accomplished or so successful;, placate his ego, if she wants to find a man.  How about finding a man you don't need to placate?  Isn't that more of a "real man"?  

When I am first asked what I do for living if the man isn't a professional I won't give my title. I'll downgrade what I do. I know I shouldn't. Couple of months ago I had gone on 3 dates with someone when suddenly he text me: what's your title. When I answered he said: women like you are often intimidating to men. So, yes, that still exist. 

 

 

[Taramere]

4 hours ago, ironpony said:

Sorry for not being able to respond to all the responses so far, they came in faster than I thought!

 

Oh well I didn't think I was trying to avoid a high powered career woman on a conscious level at all, but was just wondering if it was subconscious without me realizing it.  I don't know what to do when she comes a high powered career woman, I guess just choose to be secure with it?

 

For normal, everyday non celebrity guys (of which I assume you are one) I think most of them are looking for much the same as women are looking for.  Somebody they have things in common with, whose company they enjoy and who they feel comfortable around.  For a lot of men, a woman doing the same job or working for the same company they work for might fit the bill because they have that common ground.  Whereas somebody outside that job or company might think of them as "high powered career men/women" the people might just see themselves as doing a job that's sometimes difficult and stressful - and who aren't necessarily better paid than other people out there who are less well qualified and who don't carry the same level of professional responsibility.

I don't know who the guys in that video link you posted are, but it sounded to me like they're people who have managed to attain some sort of internet celebrity status by doing vlogs of what we do on here (ie present opinions).  Which may be lucrative, but I don't know what sort of women they'd find much common ground with.  I assume, based on the mindset they project, that they're looking for pretty young women who are willing to provide an appreciative, unchallenging audience for their opinions, have sex with them in the way that they like - and, if they get into an actual relationship, not cheat on them.  They talk a bit like pick up artists, which involves a marketing sort of mentality that tends to commodify people into fairly one dimensional high status/low status or high value/low value beings.   If you spend much time listening to that sort of chat, you're going to learn to commodify people...and that will mean that you commodify yourself along with everybody else.  Which will encourage you to be insecure around women who you've labelled as being high powered career types.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Taramere

[Miss Spider]

Idk feel like when I tell guys about my career path and education their d*ck gets way harder.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, Gaeta said:

When I am first asked what I do for living if the man isn't a professional I won't give my title. I'll downgrade what I do. I know I shouldn't. Couple of months ago I had gone on 3 dates with someone when suddenly he text me: what's your title. When I answered he said: women like you are often intimidating to men. So, yes, that still exist. 

 

 

I always just answered with what I did for a living. He might as well know, since he’s asking. 

[jspice]

1 minute ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I always just answered with what I did for a living. He might as well know, since he’s asking. 

Right. If you need to be weeded out, it might as well be at the beginning. 
 

One guy actually said “Wow, I feel so intimidated now.” 
In my twenties I would’ve tried to reassure him how there was no need to feel that way. In my thirties I let him trot along. 
 

 

[Lotsgoingon]

In my case at least, my attraction to accomplished women isn't just based on their femininity.

It's the smarts of some of these women that attracts. Also the charisma and presence of some accomplished women is really attractive to me.  Add in some beauty and some style and bang, I'm on. I love people who have great energy and curiosity when I sit across from them. 

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

9 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

In my case at least, my attraction to accomplished women isn't just based on their femininity.

It's the smarts of some of these women that attracts. Also the charisma and presence of some accomplished women is really attractive to me.  Add in some beauty and some style and bang, I'm on. I love people who have great energy and curiosity when I sit across from them. 

 

This is what I always heard from my boyfriends too, not just smarts (since obviously, people who don’t work can be smart) but independence, something larger to shoot for so he wasn’t responsible for constantly being the woman’s whole reason for being.

And the drive to move forward with one’s life; a goal; a willingness to work with him over time.

[poppyfields]

18 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

In my case at least, my attraction to accomplished women isn't just based on their femininity.

It's the smarts of some of these women that attracts. Also the charisma and presence of some accomplished women is really attractive to me.  Add in some beauty and some style and bang, I'm on. I love people who have great energy and curiosity when I sit across from them. 

I see we're back to scrutinizing what "femininity" is, ugh.   All those things you described - intelligence, charisma, presence (I will add her 'essence'), her style, her energy, her curiosity, ALL these things = FEMININE, the way I (and the men I date and associate with) define it.

Again, I ask, what is your definition of feminine anyway? I am really curious, lol.  I think it might be outdated.

EDIT:  If you mean submissive, subservient, supplicating, you could not be more wrong, imho.

Edited July 28, 2021 by poppyfields

[heavenonearth]

pretty sure most clear headed non-narcissistic people are happy to be with someone who is ambitious. that's attractive.

if any guy has an issue with an ambitious woman, pretty sure he's just got an ego problem.

sadly, there are indeed many dudes like this out there. 

[mortensorchid]

[ ]

I knew plenty of women, educated and otherwise, who were supporting their deadbeat bfs.  One was paying the rent and utility bills at his house and she wasn't even living there!  I asked why, she said it was because it would cost them more if it was turned off then turned back on.  And another long time friend (now going through a divorce for different reasons) said his wife was the breadwinner and he felt emasculated by it.  I said "Well, YOU can go out and get a job, right?"  ANd ... I have been with guys who break up with me and rebound to the next one who is not the right person by a long shot, and she ends up taking advantage of him or causing horrific problems and they don't seem to mind being the providers to them.  

So if you are a career oriented woman, stay that way.  All you have anymore is you. 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
fact checking required

[Lotsgoingon]

2 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

This is what I always heard from my boyfriends too, not just smarts (since obviously, people who don’t work can be smart) but independence, something larger to shoot for so he wasn’t responsible for constantly being the woman’s whole reason for being.

Absolutely.

[ironpony]

7 hours ago, divegrl said:

OP- just from my personal experience I found this to be very true. 
 

When I had a very lucrative job, not a single guy would ask me out. I was still very soft, caring and compassionate around men I found attractive…. But I think on a subconscious level they wanted a women they could provide for. 
 

When, I experienced a turn of life events, and found myself struggling financially…. Men came out from everywhere to date me. I was still the same caring, giving and loving woman… the only change was my career. 
 

This is just my personal story, and I kinda wish it didn’t play out like this. But it is, at least my reality, when dating men. 
 

Have a beautiful day friend. 

I find this very strange that guys would mind that much, if a woman had a lucrative job.

[Love Yourself First]

the unattractive part of these scenarios is not her ambition or drive to have a career, it's the fact that these women want to, for example, tell us that a masculine woman is attractive... I mean, you can say a masculine woman is attractive, I understand you are creating a safe space, I get it, however in departure from that safe space, you are really not available to tell me or any man what is attractive and what is not, attraction is subjectively, but speaking subjectively, anecdotally and naturally, men typically find women who possess masculine traits to be unattractive, because we have been programmed throughout history to respond to feminity.

Now here is the real kicker and a lot of you ladies will agree with me im sure: I know a ton of women who are more masculine than some of my guy friends, a lot of men are raised by single mothers and instilled with feminine traits, these feminine men run circles around masculine women, their mothers have their sons back no matter what, no matter what, all you women know that, so why wouldn't she give him every advantage possible.

So yeah, I chalk it all up to changes in levels of masculinity and femininity, I mean this is nature, this is real life, we can't just change things and expect everything to just work as it did previously, furthermore the dating landscape is evolving every day, it's just pure chaos when you really think about it and that is totally fine with me, I see a beauty in it.

[ironpony]

But what I don't understand is, how is it that a woman who is career ambitious, automatically equals masculine?  For example, a lot of men have female celebrity crushes, who are rich and successful, and they say they would love to hook up with, or even go out with, but would they, if they are rich and successful?  And why are men fantasizing about these celebrity crushes, if rich and successful, equals masculine?

[Love Yourself First]

1 minute ago, ironpony said:

But what I don't understand is, how is it that a woman who is career ambitious, automatically equals masculine?  For example, a lot of men have female celebrity crushes, who are rich and successful, and they say they would love to hook up with, or even go out with, but would they, if they are rich and successful?  And why are men fantasizing about these celebrity crushes, if rich and successful, equals masculine?

Feminine means complicit and submissive, you will be eaten alive by  cut throat corporate sociopaths, womanizers and potentially other women/men looking for your spot

[Ami1uwant]

21 hours ago, ironpony said:

I was watching this video on dating, and they talk about it at 14:25 into the video I came across:

[]

I found this very interesting, because I just so happen to start exclusively dating a woman who is in college, and not really far into any career, and I picked up over another woman I was seeing, who did have a quite bigger career advancement in a company by comparison.  I chose the other woman because I felt myself more drawn to her chemistry wise, but I now wonder if, it's some inner primordial genetic thing built inside, where I as a guy would prefer a woman with not as much of a career, without even realizing it strangely?

What do you think out of curiosity?  Thank you for any input on it!

It’s personal preference.

 

I prefer more intelligent women who do want a career.

 

understand something…a woman will also usually choose based on similar economic/ education ambitions.  The one you were dating might have dumped you because you were holding her back.

Edited July 29, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Quoted post