Understanding Possible Narcissistic Relationships

[Pumpernickel]

3 hours ago, poppyfields said:

To me it's over-excitement, an over abundance of attention, that is how I am defining it. 

I’m almost embarrassed to admit that that   is the only type of guy I’ve ever been interested in. I don’t warm up if a guy is reasonable, or acts “normal”, as in “interested on a normal level”. I’ve always wanted them over the top invested in the beginning, overly generous, and attentive. But yes - that has backfired in the long run, most of the time. Always actually - Haha!

[Miss Spider]

Another thing I think might be overplayed is the attachment styles. People are quick to throw around “They’re probably anxious/dismissive avoidant“ because a person doesn’t respond to them or their interest or something. Maybe they aren’t interested? I don’t know, but before we started dating, I overheard one of my exes telling someone he had ‘dismissive avoidant attachment’. It made me not interested because I prefer people with healthy attachment style and ability to bond. Anyway, we still went on to date because I did not see much ‘dismissive avoidant’ about him.The only thing was it did take him a minute to open up , but after he seemed to show a lot of interest in me and actually turned out a lot more interested in me than I was him in the end, and there were were a lot of points I was trying to avoid him and I’m not avoidant . But point is that he was calling himself avoidant, but he actually just avoided people that he did wasn’t that interested in or did not know that well .Just one example, but I think people tend to overuse that too

Edited July 21, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Calmandfocused]

6 hours ago, poppyfields said:

I am VERY familiar with love bombing, all my boyfriends have love bombed me in one way or the other.

The thing with me though is that while I can be very dreamy and romantic, I am also quite pragmatic, meaning I don't take the love bombing too seriously, as I know why it's occurring and it's only temporary.

I simply enjoy the attention for what it is but again don't take it too seriously.  THEY don't know that, that's between me and myself. 

I will never say never but that's why I think I would never fall victim to a narc.  I am too "earthy" for lack of a better word.

And like I said, no matter how intoxicating the chemistry, that first verbal abusive remark, and I am GONE.

Like with my ex, he called me a "fukkin bytch" I packed my bags, left a note and was gone....

I don't mess around with that at all!!

And I lost even more respect for him after he said it also, which is why I thought I might be a narc myself!

But I'm not, I just possess a few traits like we all do, which is normal and healthy (self love).

 

 

 

Whatever you’re doing there is very healthy. It sounds like you’re well equipped to protect yourself from a narc. 
  
Good, that’s how it should be. If you can avoid the ensnarement, you can avoid narcs from the get go. If you do happen to come across a narc , it’s much easier to get away from them. 

So how do you keep that emotional distance during the love bombing stage? 

I remember reading one of your posts (ages ago) where you was telling us about a guy you was seeing who was very highly critical of you. I think he was going on about your wallpaper or something. 
 

You very calmly asked him why is he with you when he doesn’t appear to like you very much. He didn’t have an answer but you dumped him there and then and asked him to leave. It was brilliant! 
 

An ensnared woman would have been shocked and hurt (like I suspect you was). However the difference is she would desperately try to “fix” why her boyfriend was being so unpleasant to her. She certainly wouldn’t leave him. 
 

 

[Calmandfocused]

6 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

‘Lovebombing’ is a confusing term for me . Can you explain it like I’m five Because the way it’s defined in calmandfocused’s post and how I often see it seems to imply it’s nefarious or there’s some kind of agenda behind it to manipulate someone? 
 

I asked because how does one then know if it’s not genuine excitement about a person vs lovebomb? Like if someone said that a person was the one after the first date,  and they actually ended up spending the rest of their life together, is it still lovebombing at the time? Because that happened (my grandma and grandpa)

Cookies, you raise a valid point. 
 

Not all love bombing behaviour is driven by a personality disorder. Luckily there are still a lot of genuine people out there who genuinely fall in love very quickly. There is no hidden agenda and they are not out to hurt anyone. This would be your grandparents it seems. It’s lovely to see a success story like this one. 
 

Poppy is right. Lovebombing is  basically flooding the victim with love, adoration and attention from the get go, which results in her getting swept of her feet and attached to the narc very quickly. Trust me there is none of this “will I hear from him/ does he like me?” questions  that are very common on this board. When a victim is being love bombed by a narc, it’s full on and intense from the get go. 
 

I kid you not, my narcs all “fell in love” with me in the space of about 2 weeks. 
 

Except they didn’t fall in love with me, they grafted to ensnare me. Big big difference.

A narc cannot love. When he experiences what he believes to be “love”, what he’s actually experiencing is fuel overload. 
 

 

[Miss Spider]

7 hours ago, Calmandfocused said:

Cookies, you raise a valid point. 
 

Not all love bombing behaviour is driven by a personality disorder. Luckily there are still a lot of genuine people out there who genuinely fall in love very quickly. There is no hidden agenda and they are not out to hurt anyone. This would be your grandparents it seems. It’s lovely to see a success story like this one. 
 

Poppy is right. Lovebombing is  basically flooding the victim with love, adoration and attention from the get go, which results in her getting swept of her feet and attached to the narc very quickly. Trust me there is none of this “will I hear from him/ does he like me?” questions  that are very common on this board. When a victim is being love bombed by a narc, it’s full on and intense from the get go. 
 

I kid you not, my narcs all “fell in love” with me in the space of about 2 weeks. 
 

Except they didn’t fall in love with me, they grafted to ensnare me. Big big difference.

A narc cannot love. When he experiences what he believes to be “love”, what he’s actually experiencing is fuel overload. 
 

 

Oh yea… that’d be very   . My rships tend to move kind of fast , but I still don’t think someone’s told me they loved me two weeks.. I mean someone being serious about it at least and not just trying to be cute..it’s usually been at least a month 

I think if that happened to me I would be a little weirded out. But I like guys that have a little bit of mystery, don’t really wear their heart much on their sleeve too soon. It’s more attractive to me that way. However,I guess it depends on the time frame. So if these people were hanging out every day and they just clicked on every level, I’d be a little less inclined to see it as weird, but idk 

[Acacia98]

On 7/18/2021 at 10:20 PM, poppyfields said:

God, this life stuff can be difficult sometimes! Lol

Ain't that the truth! 

[poppyfields]

10 hours ago, Calmandfocused said:

Whatever you’re doing there is very healthy. It sounds like you’re well equipped to protect yourself from a narc. 
  
Good, that’s how it should be. If you can avoid the ensnarement, you can avoid narcs from the get go. If you do happen to come across a narc , it’s much easier to get away from them. 

So how do you keep that emotional distance during the love bombing stage? 

I remember reading one of your posts (ages ago) where you was telling us about a guy you was seeing who was very highly critical of you. I think he was going on about your wallpaper or something. 
 

You very calmly asked him why is he with you when he doesn’t appear to like you very much. He didn’t have an answer but you dumped him there and then and asked him to leave. It was brilliant! 
 

An ensnared woman would have been shocked and hurt (like I suspect you was). However the difference is she would desperately try to “fix” why her boyfriend was being so unpleasant to her. She certainly wouldn’t leave him. 

Thank you Calm and yeah you're spot on re maintaining emotional distance during love bombing and/or the early stages. 

How do I do it?  Well, it's complicated because I AM a very emotional person and DO feel strong emotions, deeply. .

BUT again, part of my nature is also "earthy" and grounded (Taurus Rising, lol), so I'm able to recognize it for what it is, which is the rush of new love/infatuation due in part to overactive hormones, for both men and women.  And part fantasy. 

So I enjoy the attention, but do not take it all that seriously because those emotions can be and typically are fleeting.

Rush in too fast, rush out just as fast, aka whirlwind romance. 

With one of my ex's (the one discussed on this thread), he proposed getting married in Vegas the first week!

I had to tell him to slow the hell down, he was freaking me out!

So he did and he thanked me later for it because all his RLs prior to me had been fast and furious. 

Rush in fast, rush out fast.  Whirlwind.

It's not even something I am consciously doing, like some sort of game or strategy, it really is just my nature - a bit detached. 

Emotional but detached. A dichotomy.

Apologies if this is TMI, but sexually however, I am NOT detached, which is probably what prevents my boyfriends from leaving cause they do get quite frustrated with me sometimes, maybe even more than sometimes! 

Some men have tried to knock me down and cause anxiety and insecurities but that never works cause I'm on to that game as well!

I think the bottom line is I am really a law unto myself and it takes an extremely secure, confident and independent man to be with me, NO game players, because although I might play along, I'm on to it.

Good memory re the man I dated who constantly criticized me!

The last straw for me was not wallpaper, it was when he criticized the new colorful throw on my couch, he said I lacked good taste and it didn't match the decor of my apt! 

That was my "aha" moment and said "Why do you stick around when it's become clear you don't seem to like me very much?!!  What does THAT say about YOU"?

He looked at me like I had two heads and said "what, of course I like you"!

Or something like that, I can't recall exactly, it was years ago. 

I shook my head, said I was DONE and asked him to leave, and that was that!

I would have ended it sooner, but I was quite attracted, and his criticisms were always so subtle, but I felt the sting nevertheless.

Nothing verbally abusive or anything line that.  

I dated him only for a few months.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

42 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Good memory re the man I dated who constantly criticized me!

The last straw for me was not wallpaper, it was when he criticized the new colorful throw on my couch, he said I lacked good taste and it didn't match the decor of my apt! 

That was my "aha" moment and said "Why do you stick around when it's become clear you don't seem to like me very much?!!  What does THAT say about YOU"?

He looked at me like I had two heads and said "what, of course I like you"!

Or something like that, I can't recall exactly, it was years ago. 

I shook my head, said I was DONE and asked him to leave, and that was that!

I would have ended it sooner, but I was quite attracted, and his criticisms were always so subtle, but I felt the sting nevertheless.

Nothing verbally abusive or anything line that.  

I dated him only for a few months.

Adding to this^, my suggestion to women (and men if roles were reversed) is if you are dating a man (person) who constantly finds fault with you and criticizes you, flip the script.

Ask them why the hell they are dating you, when they find so many things "wrong" with you?

Suggest they do some self-reflection as what does that say about them?  Continue dating a woman they find so much "wrong" with?  

And then walk out, end the RL.

I guarantee nothing good or positive comes from dating/being in a relationship with someone who is constantly finding faults and criticizing. 

Your self-esteem will eventually plummet and you will feel like shyt in the relationship versus strong and confident. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by poppyfields

[HadMeOverABarrel]

On 7/18/2021 at 3:20 PM, poppyfields said:

What is also interesting and I have discussed this in one of my threads, but my own mom possessed many NPD traits as well, and have been told I attract such types in a subconscious effort to heal my RL with her.

If you're interested, I've given a front row seat to my own tailspin on this exact topic here:

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel

[HadMeOverABarrel]

23 hours ago, poppyfields said:

 

1. One more question and hopefully this will help the OP too, but re what's in bold, is this intentional?  Like do they consciously say to themselves -- I am going to create some chaos, trigger my partner's tears, emotional distress, anxiety and insecurity to feed my ego or whatever it is a narcissist needs to feel whole and complete, or whatever it is that drives them?

2. What happens when a woman (or man if roles were reversed) doesn't respond the way they want and stands up for herself and doesn't become the insecure emotional mess he's aiming for?   

3. Will he respect her for it?

4. Are narcissists capable of actually respecting their partners?

I've numbered your questions and am taking a stab at answering them based on my own experiences.

1. I don't think it's conscious as in the way you describe. I think it's more like how we are when driving a car. It's automatic. Narcs are satisfied with the resulting emotional responses their (automatic) behavior generates in others like we are satisfied that we safely arrived at our destination even though we may not have conciously thought of every action we performed behind the steering wheel to get there. 

2. When the target asserts him-/herself contrary to the narc's wishes, the narc incurs a narcissistic injury (triggers their inner shame response subconciously), and the narc reacts with narcissistic rage. 

3. No. Instead narcs will seethe and plot punishment. 

4. This is an interesting question. I believe narcs can feel respect and admiration for others, but it won't keep them from violating those same people. Afterall, narcs don't want to associate themselves with those they perceive as inferior. So while they might respect and admire certain people, while trying to cozy up to and ultimately exploit those people, they also harbor deep resentment and envy for those same people who express positive traits. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Calmandfocused]

2 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Thank you Calm and yeah you're spot on re maintaining emotional distance during love bombing and/or the early stages. 

How do I do it?  Well, it's complicated because I AM a very emotional person and DO feel strong emotions, deeply. .

BUT again, part of my nature is also "earthy" and grounded (Taurus Rising, lol), so I'm able to recognize it for what it is, which is the rush of new love/infatuation due in part to overactive hormones, for both men and women.  And part fantasy. 

So I enjoy the attention, but do not take it all that seriously because those emotions can be and typically are fleeting.

Rush in too fast, rush out just as fast, aka whirlwind romance. 

With one of my ex's (the one discussed on this thread), he proposed getting married in Vegas the first week!

I had to tell him to slow the hell down, he was freaking me out!

So he did and he thanked me later for it because all his RLs prior to me had been fast and furious. 

Rush in fast, rush out fast.  Whirlwind.

It's not even something I am consciously doing, like some sort of game or strategy, it really is just my nature - a bit detached. 

Emotional but detached. A dichotomy.

Apologies if this is TMI, but sexually however, I am NOT detached, which is probably what prevents my boyfriends from leaving cause they do get quite frustrated with me sometimes, maybe even more than sometimes! 

Some men have tried to knock me down and cause anxiety and insecurities but that never works cause I'm on to that game as well!

I think the bottom line is I am really a law unto myself and it takes an extremely secure, confident and independent man to be with me, NO game players, because although I might play along, I'm on to it.

Good memory re the man I dated who constantly criticized me!

The last straw for me was not wallpaper, it was when he criticized the new colorful throw on my couch, he said I lacked good taste and it didn't match the decor of my apt! 

That was my "aha" moment and said "Why do you stick around when it's become clear you don't seem to like me very much?!!  What does THAT say about YOU"?

He looked at me like I had two heads and said "what, of course I like you"!

Or something like that, I can't recall exactly, it was years ago. 

I shook my head, said I was DONE and asked him to leave, and that was that!

I would have ended it sooner, but I was quite attracted, and his criticisms were always so subtle, but I felt the sting nevertheless.

Nothing verbally abusive or anything line that.  

I dated him only for a few months.

 

 

Poppy I’m not sure I understand what you mean regarding the sexual side of things but it triggered something else that I wanted to share with you regarding narcissism. 
 

Sex plays a huge,  important role within a narc/ victim relationship. I don’t want to pay narcs any compliments but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that the  sex is very very good. It’s electrifying … this is another factor that keeps the victims attached/ addicted to the narc, and maintains the ensnarement cycle. 
 

Narcs make sure they are good in bed. Why? Well for one the pleasure they give you makes them feel powerful and special.  Secondly, they will use your enjoyment of sex with them to “whore” you and disrespect you (abuse you). Being good in bed  is therefore a necessity. Double benefit for them. Double fuel provision. 
 

I’ve never known a narc to have sexual dysfunction mainly because his feelings of superiority are a turn on in itself. 
 

However I’ve read that on the rare occasion this does happen, the narc makes sure he is sexually powerful by other means. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Calmandfocused

[poppyfields]

31 minutes ago, Calmandfocused said:

Poppy I’m not sure I understand what you mean regarding the sexual side of things but it triggered something else that I wanted to share with you regarding narcissism. 

Sex plays a huge,  important role within a narc/ victim relationship. I don’t want to pay narcs any compliments but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that the  sex is very very good. It’s electrifying … this is another factor that keeps the victims attached to the narc and maintains the ensnarement cycle going. 

Calm, what I meant was when we're interacting day to day, I may sometimes come across as somewhat detached because I am un-reactive to things that other women may react to (or over-react to) and it kind of throws men off and they become frustrated.  It's been known to happen.

BUT sexually, I am all IN, not detached, I am 100% engaged, passionate, like you said it can be electrifying but for different reasons than what's quoted above re a narcissist.  

I often wonder if the very fact I am somewhat detached in the day to day but very attached and engaged during sex is why my relationships never become boring or stale.  They are many other things that may not be healthy but they have never been boring or stale.

I compare it to a RL that has become familiar and "safe" versus a bit distant and uncertain.  The distance and uncertainly serve to make it exciting and hot including the sex!

Once familiarity sets in, it becomes more like a friendship and sexual desire dries up.  In fact there is a thread running discussing this very thing.  A man posted discussing his 6 year RL, they get on super well, are the best of friends but the sexual desire on both their parts has pretty much dried up, they're even sleeping in separate bedrooms!

I hope that answers your question, and again I thank you so much for you insight, I am really learning A LOT!!  

Edited July 21, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

@HadMeOverABarrelwrote:

>>But as my therapist has always said, "you've got to feel it to heal it." I had some challenging moments but also some moments where memories of interactions between me and my mother percolated to my conscious going all the way back to age 1.5 years old. I was shocked to hear coming to my conciousness how my (very narcissist) mother felt her unplanned pregnancy with me thwarted what she believed were to be her soon-to-become glory days where she finally could take center stage and be what she wanted, after feeling her own childhood was stunted.

I was shocked to hear her say it was my fault she didn't realize her full potential, that she blamed me for her personal failures, that she used this for justification to literally punish me for existing. 

I saw her evil in competing against me as a very little girl for my father's affection. I had massive confusion (therapist says that's also a defense--easier to be confused than to feel the pain).

My mother suppressed my identity. She suppressed my voice. She was volaile and unpredictable. My urgent cries were met with her hostile shushing which were then met with escalated violence if I failed to comply. She terrified me as a small child. She put all her angst on me for no reason that I could understand.

She taught me to suppress my own voice, to subjugate my needs to her (and others), she used me as a pawn to gleen adoration from strangers, but privately she neglected my emotional needs. She showed no empathy or remorse. As a teen she gaslighted me anytime I expressed my emotional pain.<<

--------

Wow I cannot believe how similar if not identical our situations are/were!  I can relate to every single thing posted above, especially the bolded!

I walked on eggshells for most of my childhood, at times I would even shake when I came home from school, wondering what her mood would be and if she found something to lash out at me about.

I have brothers, and she loved them and treated them like kings, but me?  She couldn't stand me, it was quite obvious, I told this story on one of my threads but one time she locked me a very tiny closet for reading a book she didn't approve of "Rosemary's Baby" that she tossed in the garbage and I retrieved so I could finish reading it!

And she once cut off my hair, which was down to my waist at the time, she cut it to my chin.

I swear when she came at me with the scissors, I thought she was gonna stab me!   But no she didn't stab me, she just cut off about 8 inches of my hair!  

She hated me, whether it was jealousy because my dad and I were super close or something else, I never knew.

Right before she passed away from cancer, we did make amends (sort of) and she told me she loved me and apologized for not being a better mom to me, it was sad but healing.... we both cried.

Yeah this thread has become a public journal in a way, but I am enjoying it, it's healing for me, because like you, I tend to suppress emotions, bottle them up which isn't healthy!

And I love what your therapist said "you've got to feel it to heal it."  So so true, suppressing feelings and emotions can really screw a person up.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by poppyfields

[HadMeOverABarrel]

1 hour ago, poppyfields said:

 

I often wonder if the very fact I am somewhat detached in the day to day but very attached and engaged during sex is why my relationships never become boring or stale.  They are many other things that may not be healthy but they have never been boring or stale.

I'm putting forth a theory for you on this. Of course, you'll have to decide if it's true for you.

Possibly you are detached as a defense mechanism to feeling vulnerable. As daughters of narcissist mothers, we had to go inwards to suppress our pain. This causes a sort of splitting of the self (my term, not a technical one) to protect the psyche from further damage during abuse. 

During abuse, the limbic system is activated triggering fight/flight/freeze/fawn (fawn is a new one I learned today).

As a kid, we were too overpowered to fight. Our aggressors (mothers) blocked our ability to flight. That leaves freeze (and fawn?).  In freeze, we go inwards and suppress the pain. I think the result is we have learned to detach from our emotions as a mechanism for survival. I believe it's one of the reasons I struggle to access the pain associated with those old wounds. A few years ago in therapy I could barely connect at all. (Now I'm more connected but I feel destabilized, dizzy. Not sure it's much better right now but hopefully I'll emerge whole and healed on the other side.)

So could you be detached because it feels "safe" to be that way?  Less vulnerability = less risk.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

1 hour ago, poppyfields said:

 

Right before she passed away from cancer, we did make amends (sort of) and she told me she loved me and apologized for not being a better mom to me, it was sad but healing.... we both cried.

There are other things you wrote that I'd like to respond to, but in this moment I'm sharing the emotional response I got from reading this part.

It made me tear up. I'm happy for you but I'm also angry at our moms... I'm glad you got an apology from her, but I'm also mad that they know what they do. Why wait until death to utter an apology?

What is that? Is it clinging to the terror of their absolute control until their last breath? They can't surrender that until death is at their door? And why then? Do they think it absolves them from their sins of a lifetime so they can skip freely into the afterlife?

"Yeah, God, I know I was totally $hitty all my life to the people who loved me most, but hey look! I apologized in the end so I'm ready to enter the gates of heaven and bliss now."

I don't mean to poo poo the experience. Of course not. It just makes me mad that it's sooo last moment.

Edited July 21, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel

[poppyfields]

@HadMeOverABarrel, your last two posts were very thoughtful and I didn't want you think I'm ignoring, but I am a bit rushed for time at the moment, but I will respond later tonight or tomorrow.

It will also give me time to think about, especially the first re vulnerability; but to answer quickly for now, yes I have struggled with vulnerability in the past, but I have worked through a lot of *, and feel more comfortable with it now.

I have never had a problem feeling vulnerable and expressing it sexually however, so that's interesting, but you may be on to something, again I will think about it overnight and respond.

And thank you for taking the time to read and respond, it's not even my thread and I am thinking perhaps it might be better to respond in personal message, although sometimes others' struggles can help everyone, so I will probably respond on the thread.

One never knows who might relate to it...

Ciao for now. 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by poppyfields

[Taramere]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:25 PM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

I've numbered your questions and am taking a stab at answering them based on my own experiences.

1. I don't think it's conscious as in the way you describe. I think it's more like how we are when driving a car. It's automatic. Narcs are satisfied with the resulting emotional responses their (automatic) behavior generates in others like we are satisfied that we safely arrived at our destination even though we may not have conciously thought of every action we performed behind the steering wheel to get there. 

2. When the target asserts him-/herself contrary to the narc's wishes, the narc incurs a narcissistic injury (triggers their inner shame response subconciously), and the narc reacts with narcissistic rage. 

3. No. Instead narcs will seethe and plot punishment. 

4. This is an interesting question. I believe narcs can feel respect and admiration for others, but it won't keep them from violating those same people. Afterall, narcs don't want to associate themselves with those they perceive as inferior. So while they might respect and admire certain people, while trying to cozy up to and ultimately exploit those people, they also harbor deep resentment and envy for those same people who express positive traits. 

I had an unpleasant experience with a guy a few months ago.  Somebody I've known for many years. He was certainly a troubled character when he was younger, and none of my other friends liked him much.  My view of him was that he had many good qualities and was a kind hearted but very insecure person.  When I was a teen, his outbursts of temper tendency to criticise me and my friends (particularly my friends) irritated me but mostly I just let it go over my head.  We drifted apart for some years after one of his unreasonable outbursts.  Looking back, that time during which he played no role in my life was the best time of my life - but that was due to circumstances unrelated to him.  However, I suspect that if he'd played a role in my life then, he might have brought in a negativity that would have soured the fun, enjoyable elements. 

We fell out recently after I asserted a perfectly reasonable boundary about not wanting him coming round to my house every morning at 7am.  He gets these long bouts of almost manic happiness and excitement - which I was being subjected to on a daily basis when he came round to my home at 7am.  Then it all collapses into a  black depression that seems to be filled with loathing for anybody and everybody.  Those periods can occur during the manic ones.  You might be out for a walk with him and he'll be chatting in a happy, animated way.  Then suddenly somebody will cycle past a bit too close, or a passer by won't say thank you when one of us steps to one side to let them past...and he'll have an angry outburst that will generally culminate in expressions of dislike for pretty much everybody who lives in this town and unflattering comparisons with some Utopia he once visited where everybody behaved marvellously 24/7.   

My friend (or ex friend) is, in his mid 50s, essentially the same person he was as a teenager...and that is not a good thing.  With teenage him, you could attribute a lot of the negative, insecure and angry behaviour to youth.  He has never matured out of it, he's just learned to conceal it for the most part...but when he gets into conflict with others, that angsty teenage "I''m the only genuine, caring person on the planet - everybody else is just a selfish, superficial piece of crap" glows like a piece of hot, angry coal.  If he were a good looking guy who appealed to a lot of women, the narcissism would probably assert itself in a far more arrogant, superficial sort of way.  But because nature didn't favour him with great looks, the narcissism comes out in this "I'm morally superior and an all round nicer, deeper more compassionate person than everybody else."

I think a narcissistic person will select positive qualities that they believe they have, or can aspire to, and hold these to be the crucial qualities a person must have in life.  And they will hold themselves to be more (of those things) than anybody else is....maybe having a meltdown when faced with anything which threatens that self image.  When I asked my friend not to come round at 7am every weekday, that was a pretty reasonable boundary...but I think the narcissist in him was threatened by it.  "I'm the kindest, most considerate person every.  There's no way my behaviour would ever be sufficiently inconsiderate for another person to need to lay down a boundary with me.  So if somebody is asking me to stop doing something I'm doing, it's only because they are a horrible, ungrateful, selfish wretch."

I think we're all susceptible to some sort of mental health problems in the right (or wrong) circumstances...and most of those disorders probably result in patterns of behaviour that seem quite narcissistic.   You could observe my friend and say "well, maybe he's got bipolar disorder, given these sustained periods of almost manic happiness interspersed or replaced with moments of dark anger and periods of depression".  But I've known a few people who disclosed to me that they'd been diagnosed with bipolar disorder.  Those were people who had clearly received and co-operated with treatment for it, and who function well.  The crucial difference between them and my friend is that they recognise they have a condition requiring treatment.  With my friend, he thinks the world is the problem and that he's the solution nobody shows appropriate gratitude for.   He recognises that he's susceptible to depression - but the way he talks about it, you can tell that he thinks the problem is with a world that he's just too nice and too good for.  The notion of getting professional help/therapy is something he uses as an insult for others, rather than triggering any "maybe I should think about that, and make a concerted effort to co-operate with any treatment I get" thinking in him.

Perhaps the overriding thing about narcissism is that the person just does not recognise any fault in themselves and their behaviour.  So the narcissism isn't so much a mental health condition in itself, so much as a trait that prevents people from recognising and addressing their own problematic thinking/behaviour...or  getting the help they need if they do have a mental health condition.    

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Taramere

[HadMeOverABarrel]

On 7/31/2021 at 7:47 PM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Cracking the code of push/pull; hot/cold; the cycle of abuse (e.g. gaslighting, manipulation, controlling/domination, devaluation)...

What is going on from their side? The answer in the following article.

-----------------------------------------------------

https://www.google.com/amp/s/narcwise.com/2019/08/14/why-narcissist-chose-you/%3famp=1

The narcissist’s divided self

First up, the basics.

Pathological narcissism can arise from developmental disruptions in early childhood, where a cohesive self-concept, or identity is never fully realised. Through ‘splitting’, a divided self is created comprised of the true-self & false-self (for more on splitting read From ‘soul mate’ to worthless: What’s behind the narcissist’s 180? and How the narcissist hooks you: Hoovering & baiting).

The true-self is rejected, and in its stead, the false-self is fabricated to protect the narcissist from what they are psychologically unable to allow: that they are flawed just like the rest of us.

This false-self encompasses those traits of superiority, omnipotence & entitlement. To the mind of the pathological narcissist, by assuming these attributes, the less desirable characteristics of humanity which inevitably reside in us all, are nullified since the good & the bad cannot coexist within their schema.

Aside from their perfection being patently ridiculous & contrary to the human condition, this false-self has one helluva job.

Want to know why?

Because the narcissist’s psychological survival is contingent on securing external validation through supply that their mythological perfection is reality. Clearly this is fraught with problems, being unattainable and all that. Hence, the host of behavioural patterns which form their disorder.

Making the madness ‘work’

To make the madness ‘work’, they endlessly chase substantiation that they are ‘more than’ all others (for the remainder of this piece we will refer to the bundle of narcissistic traits as the need to be ‘more than’ – for more on this concept read Proof the narcissist abuses you intentionally and will never change).

The thing with being ‘more than’, is that it requires a reference point. As without comparison to some other, being ‘more than’ cannot be assessed.

And this is why, the narcissist chose you. Integral to feeding the narc’s ego is social comparison. And you, gorgeous one, were chosen as the narcissist’s reference point.

Pathological envy was the magnet that drew them to you & kick-started idealisation. Equally though, envy inevitably also leads to devaluation & finally, discard.

Here’s how it works.

Recognising envy during idealisation

Emptiness

The narcissist selected you because they were attracted to your qualities. As with any relationship, whatever it is about you that is special, is what drew them in.

And this is where the parallel with emotionally healthy relationships ends.

For the pathological narcissist, relationships serve a functional purpose as it relates to being ‘more than’. They are a self-enhancement strategy, and “an opportunity to increase the positivity of the self-concept” (Campbell, 1999, p.1256).

By identifying with you and those gifts of yours that are special, they bolster the favoured view of themselves, successfully renouncing that ever present true-self (at first…).

The thing with the pathological narcissist is that beyond the complicated internal landscape of smoke & mirrors, there lies hollowness. By abandoning their true-selves, & adopting that false-self, at their core they experience emptiness.

As stated, the psychological survival of the narcissist hinges on validating the veracity of those traits that make up their false-self. Having denied their true-self, their identity beyond simply being ‘more than’ is at best, limited.

So, in addition to rejecting their true-selves causing emptiness, it means that through the obsessive need to prove themselves ‘more than’ others, their identity at any given time is significantly defined by those they surround themselves with.

Constructing identity

In choosing you, they are also selecting the next evolution of their ‘identity’, given relationships for pathological narcissist’s are in part about constructing their desired self (Morf & Rhodewalt, 2001).

Here’s the thing.

The void they experience & poor sense of identity, are not solely due to setting their true-selves aside. It is also about lacking depth & breadth of emotional range. And whether subconsciously or not, the pathological narcissist sniffs out targets who possess what is absent in them: empathy, compassion, strength, courage, kindness etc.

And you dear heart, I know down to the marrow in my bones, have these beautiful qualities in spades.

Sadly, as you no doubt well know, whilst drawn to these attributes in you, it was never for the sake of valuing them as part of your gorgeous self, and for this reason alone.

You were serving the purpose of mirroring for them what they so desperately needed to believe of themselves. By merging with you and mirroring your specialness, they bolstered their fragile belief system & created the identity they wish they had.

Not so sure?

Reflect on that frenzied torrent you once heard ‘we are twin flames…cut from the same wood…two peas in a pod…soul mates etc.’ (for more on love-bombing read The narcissist’s ‘soul mate’ effect: How & why they do it and Narcissists love boundaries: Exposing the truth).

From their very own lips to your ears. These were the narc’s attempts to convince not only you, but themselves, how very much alike the two of you are.

Relationships as a strategy for self-regulation

What we’ve just checked out through self-enhancement & self-construction, are why relationships are a strategy for the narcissist.

They are a way of regulating the chaos within. For as long as the relationship feeds them by feeling ‘more than’, they are psychologically OK.

Their internal rage is on hiatus. They have temporarily suppressed the beast of envy.

And this is why they went into overdrive in needing to ‘lock you in’. What we are referring to here is, of course, love bombing & idealisation.

Recognising envy in devaluation & discard

When the beast awakens

So, what happens through that process of social comparison with you as the reference point, when feeling ‘more than’ is compromised?

When whispers of what lies at the root of their polarised nature sneaks past their denial, the envy which during idealisation was less conscious, becomes more palpable…and the beast of envy wakes: “a painful emotion ensuing from the envier’s lack of another’s quality, achievement, or possession” (Lange, Delroy & Crusius, 2018 p.601).

At the outset, your special traits enhanced their self-image. Up until this point, through identification with you, they have managed to delude themselves into believing you are ‘same, same’. If you are superior, then so too, must they be.

Untenable inferiority leads to rivalry

But you are not. Never were. Never will be.

And your beauty is so lovely, that even the strength of the narcissist’s denial begins to crack.

Through that comparative process embedded in their DNA, and your gorgeousness, you begin triggering their inferiority.  Suddenly, feelings of being ‘less than’ are elicited, because the standard you set becomes a threat.

By possessing traits & qualities that they do not have, you are directly jeopardising their self-concept, that false-self they cling to. And in turn, to combat this, and the possibility of narcissistic injury through feelings of untenable inferiority, the narcissist becomes your rival.

For the narc, this is the great levelling, the only way they know to re-establish their equilibrium. This is, of course, self-regulation in action once more. But this time, you are the victim.

Schadenfreude

To reclaim their balance through supremacy, you are devalued, invalidated, abused.

The sickness of the narcissist is that enhancing the self comes at the cost of the diminishment of others. To correct the discomfort elicited, they must level the differences (Lange et. al., 2016; Zlatan & Johar, 2012).

Enter schadenfreude: self-regulation through the malicious, intentional sabotage of the target of envy.

It is the pleasure derived from the pain of another. You know that smirk you catch on their faces every now & then when the mask slips, & they know they’ve hit the jackpot in hurting you?

That’s it. That’s schadenfreude.

Put differently, your misfortune, makes them feel better.

Combine rivalry & schadenfreude in a big old festering pot of poisonous narcissistic self-regulation, and what do you get? Hate bombs.

You get ALL the invalidation tactics you know so well. We’re talking dominance, derogation, intimidation, emotional blackmail, gaslighting, smear campaigns, lying, violence, manipulation, isolation, stonewalling, silent treatment, ghosting, projection etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Yep.

There’s not one bit that didn’t resonate, right? ALL this. You have lived it. You have SURVIVED it.

@Taramere I posted the above quote on my thread. I think it speaks to much of what you wrote in your most recent post here. 

Let me know your thoughts. Feel free to post on my thread, if you want, as I'm exploring how my mom's and xMM's narcissism impacted me. 

I'd tend to think your (ex-)friend is narcissistic rathan than bipolar, but I'm not a mental health professional.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@Taramere I think I read somewhere that depression is often comorbidly diagnosed in narcissists so you're probably on to something their with your ex-friend. My mother was diagnosed with depression after my dad died a long time ago (she seems to like the diagnosis like she has a built-in excuse for her narc behaviors plus she doubles up on her meds without dr orders when she's going to be in a sad environment like funerals ). Narc xMM used to complain to me frequently enough that he felt depressed. 

[AnnieB]

I never actually connected the dots until I posted here about my last situationship, but all of my relationships/ dating started with lovebombing, and there are maybe two men, who actually truly loved me. I think that’s an average for many people.

I’m curious to find out why these men wanted to sleep with me so badly (I’m probably considered attractive, but by no means am I a model) that they had to conjure a whole “in love” persona.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by AnnieB

[Taramere]

11 minutes ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

@Taramere I posted the above quote on my thread. I think it speaks to much of what you wrote in your most recent post here. 

Let me know your thoughts. Feel free to post on my thread, if you want, as I'm exploring how my mom's and xMM's narcissism impacted me. 

I'd tend to think your (ex-)friend is narcissistic rathan than bipolar, but I'm not a mental health professional.

I will do.  The thing that stood out for me in that quote was...

It is the pleasure derived from the pain of another. You know that smirk you catch on their faces every now & then when the mask slips, & they know they’ve hit the jackpot in hurting you?

That’s it. That’s schadenfreude.

Though with him, times I've seen that smirk weren't so much times that he actually hurt me as times that he was obviously trying to go for the jugular.  He had a big crush on me when we were teenagers....to a point that was a problem, particularly in that it manifested itself in jealous and abusive behaviour because in Loveshack terms I always very much saw him as strictly in the friend zone.  Even as a teenager, I wasn't sure why he had such a crush on me when he seemed to view me as a walking list of everything he disliked about women.  I remember one time being on the phone to him, and he was basically giving a shopping list of criticisms about me and my best friend.  I remember picturing his face, filled with glee as he shared these vents as though he were some edgy stand up comic...and then I put the phone down on him in mid flow.  He called me back just so that he could hang up on me.  He was forever creating and trying to win these pathetic little power games that nobody other than him cared about.

And the schadenfreude is definitely there.    I remember on my 20th birthday sitting in a pub with him and my best friend.  He was cracking on about how it was my birthday and hardly anybody had bothered to show up.  He was really pleased about that.  Then a bunch of other people showed up and it wiped that smirk right off his face.  Decades later he's still the same. He'll form an unflattering (to me) conclusion about something and then if it's proved wrong the schadenfreude is replaced with this dark, depressive anger. 

When he lashes out, or is venting vitriolically about somebody/something, he will sometimes have a sort of grim smirk on his face as though on having decided to give in to his most unpleasant urges, he's luxuriating in them like a pig in sh*t...but you just know there's a lot of anger, misery and self loathing behind that smirk. I read this and think "well, people must think I'm completely crazy to have ever been friends with this guy" - and I think there's something in that.  I've made some bad choices in my life, and sustaining a long lasting friendship with him was one of them.

The thing is that when he's not going down that grimly twisted, angrily smiling path, there is this element to him that seems genuinely very caring and "give a person in need his last penny/shirt off his back" compassionate.  I know narcissistic people can be good at mimicking empathy, but I do think his empathic urges are genuine....but they're part of the problem, because they're so unrestrained.  He gives what people never asked for from him, demands they accept it...but you can sense something very needy and angry in amongst it all.  Whenever I've read anything on here about Angry Nice Guys, his angry, pouting face springs to mind.  

If you asked him for his views on narcissism...well, I've no doubt that he'd say I was a narcissist.  Along with any other woman who has been his friend but didn't want a romantic involvement with him.  He'd also spend a lot of time b****ing about what  I think of as harmlessly self involved behaviour on Facebook.  He'll make all sorts of twisted mouth observations about people posting updates for likes, pitching himself as above it all because he deleted his own Facebook account.  But the reality is that he deleted his Facebook account in a black rage because people on his friends list weren't bothering to like his updates.

Sorry to everybody on the thread for going on about it.  I thought I'd resolved this a couple of months back, but he's found an excuse to infiltrate my space again in a way I can't do anything about.

[Weezy1973]

On 7/20/2021 at 6:41 PM, Pumpernickel said:

I don’t warm up if a guy is reasonable, or acts “normal”, as in “interested on a normal level”. I’ve always wanted them over the top invested in the beginning, overly generous, and attentive. But yes - that has backfired in the long run, most of the time. Always actually - 

I’d guess this is due to your own insecurities. A guy that’s over the top invested gives you a sense of security while a guy that’s more “normal” might cause anxiety because you’re not sure if he actually likes you. Or it could be that you have low self worth, so you’re counting on the early stages to get a guy attached, because deep down you feel if he knew the “real” you, he would no longer be interested…

[Taramere]

53 minutes ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

@Taramere I posted the above quote on my thread.

Could you link me to your thread? Used to be that you could find threads people started by clicking on their profile, but I can't see that option now.

[Miss Spider]

45 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’d guess this is due to your own insecurities. A guy that’s over the top invested gives you a sense of security while a guy that’s more “normal” might cause anxiety because you’re not sure if he actually likes you. Or it could be that you have low self worth, so you’re counting on the early stages to get a guy attached, because deep down you feel if he knew the “real” you, he would no longer be interested…

Yep both are true. Plus some people just like being admired/doted on. Especially women, they’re socialized  to be waiting for price charming.  Personally, I like just a little left of center 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

56 minutes ago, Taramere said:

I wasn't sure why he had such a crush on me when he seemed to view me as a walking list of everything he disliked about women. 

It's common for people to act like they loathe certain things about others which they themselves possess but are ashamed of OR they want for themselves but believe they can never have. 

Here is a case in point. Yesterday I watched a documentary about a kid who ended up massacring 3 coworkers before killing himself. The narrator read this guy's own words where he said he stopped following a YouTuber after learning the Youtuber was a cross-dresser. The kid was also a cross-dresser but was in the closet about it. 

So your friend probably very much admired your qualities but didn't believe he was worthy of them or wanted to have more of those qualities himself.