Correlation between narcissism and not that into you

[AnnieB]

10 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

So, I have started to develop this theory through my past and present experience in the dating world.  Maybe others can see it too? I'm hoping for some feedback that will help me in the future.

Basically, I've felt that the majority of guys I've dated have fit a narcissitic profile.  But something else that I've noticed, is that they go on to have what appear to be successful relationships.  And these successful relationships, 9 times out of 10 are with women who are either younger than me, more attractive than me or both.

What I'm wondering is... could it be possible that I'm perceiving these men as narcissistic because they are not that into me??

For example, a lot of the characteristics of narcissism... like gas lighting, cold shoulder, blame shifting... it fits with the way a guy behaves when he's settling or still open to better possibilities.

So maybe I've just been dating outside my league?  

You know how they say a guy isn't going to refuse sex.  If I'm a co-dependent doormat, then I'm possibly just allowing men to use me while they're still searching for "the one."

Has anyone else noticed that these two dynamics may be related??

I would agree with you had I not had the same experiences with people even without having sex. So it’s not all necessarily because they are looking for sex. 

The Attachment theory could give you some insight about this, as well.

In my experience and having been a former maybe not a doormat, necessarily (because I fought ), but staying in relationships way beyond their expiration date (the status of being in a relationship validated me), I’ve accepted some of these behaviors and tried to “work through them”, instead of bouncing at the first sign of disrespect. 

And as much as I attracted these people my fault was staying in the relationship the minute the first cold shoulder appeared. I should have been out of there. It’s not that you attract shitty people it is that you stay hoping they will change (I’ve actually done this just recently with my last relationship after all kinds of therapy and being 41!) These patterns are extremely hard to break and will take years of counseling. But all in all I have to say I’m happier now than I’ve ever been. In the past I would still persisted in the relationship and it would literally show up in my body as stress, with eating issues (under and over eating), etc. vs now all of it is in the open, I break it off at the first sign of disrespect (Edit: let’s be real - I broke it off after 3rd time of him going cold on me, let’s be real I’m not there yet to break it off after the 1st time),

 and I get over it much quicker once I realize it is them and not me. 
It’s not me because I know I’m kind and nice and generous and all those things. Nothing to prompt disrespect, but their own trauma and upbringing. Once you know yourself, life will be easier. Know your bad and good qualities and build your self esteem and focus on that going forward. 
 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by AnnieB
Honesty

[Wiseman2]

12 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

 don't know if I trust Robert Hare's statistics.  

The Hare Psychopathy Checklist is  used as a standard instrument for researchers and clinicians, especially in forensic settings such as prisons or high secure psychiatric units.

Robert Hare is a forensic psychologist.

The research and criteria are on Antisocial Personality Disorder. Has nothing to do with narcissistic personality disorders.

Anyone can google, copy and paste DSM criteria.

However only a one on one evaluation by a physician or psychiatrist can determine such a diagnosis.

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Wiseman2

[Blind-Sided]

14 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance 
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high- status people (or institutions).

4. Requires excessive admiration.
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning
5. Has a sense of entitlement,
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.

9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

THANK YOU !

As we can see... these are extreme behaviors.  So, when someone is throwing the label of "He/she is a narcissist"... more times than not... the person accusing this will use one, or two of those points... and take a shade of it, and drop the label.   Let's face it... sometimes people are just jerks.  LOL.   Also... when reflecting on a date that didn't work out... I've hear people (both sexes) say that they only talked about themselves, and put this label on them.  But let's face it... on a first or second date... that's what you do... talk about yourself... and basically "Sell" yourself to someone else.

If you have gone on a few dates... you simply don't know that person well enough to put on any label honestly.  

So... OP... without knowing details, and a long history... all we can say is... they weren't into you.

[Lotsgoingon]

6 hours ago, AnnieB said:

And as much as I attracted these people my fault was staying in the relationship the minute the first cold shoulder appeared. I should have been out of there. It’s not that you attract shitty people it is that you stay hoping they will change (I’ve actually done this just recently with my last relationship after all kinds of therapy and being 41!)

Yes, this is THE key skill of dating that eluded me for many years. I was slow to react in real time. I like a lot of people and would end up in dates with various people. But liking and wanting to date are two different things. My definition of "liking" was yeah, I enjoyed talking to them at a party. But the real action starts when you go out the first time and the second time and so on. I realized I needed to relax and evaluate after each date.

OP, start bouncing people ... early on ... and you'll one day get to someone you won't want to bounce ... and then another date with that someone you don't want to bounce ... and on and on ...

 

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, Blind-Sided said:

without knowing details, and a long history... all we can say is... they weren't into you.

Agree. Unfortunately, part of the healing process is the "they were crap anyway" view to assuage the pain and feel better having dodged a purported bullet.

[Calmandfocused]

By “successful” I’m presuming you mean a “happy” and long term relationship? 

If your exes have achieved this you are way off the mark. 

A true narcissist cannot have a “successful” relationship. They are incapable of it. They cannot function a relationship like we can. 
 

And they repeat the same behaviour each and every time. He can’t help it. He “needs” to indulge. The only difference will be the events that trigger the behaviours. 
 

A narcissist will dose out the same treatment to each and every partner he has because it serves him to do so. It’s what he needs to do to survive, and feed the narcissism. 
 

So your exes weren’t narcissists, they were simply wrong for you. Big big difference. 

[Lotsgoingon]

I think the OP is using the "narcissist" label to try to make sense of things. But the label obscures her role in going passive on dates and not asserting herself, not allowing her real energy and vibrancy to show through. 

[smackie9]

If the opportunity is there, and offered to have more what they desire, they are going to take it..men and women. Has nothing to do with Narcissism, it's just plain human nature to do so. True Narcissists pick the weak and easily manipulated so they can get away with their own behavior, and have control over their partners behavior. It doesn't have anything to do with "settling". It's about power tripping/control.

People like yourself that are being rejected, unhappy with dating, and haven't met the right one, try to find reasons/excuses as a way to deal with it. What you should be doing is spending more time on yourself, your self esteem, your perspective, and attitude. When you look /feel healthy, physically and mentally, you make better choices, and it attracts the same.

[Classicfiction]

On 7/18/2021 at 1:50 AM, AnnieB said:

I think if you self loathe and your self esteem is low some of your behaviors will be narcissistic. Narcissists loathe themselves deep down, their self esteem is all on the surface. Getting diagnosed with narcissism is very rare as narcissists simply don’t seek treatment because the world works for them just fine. Their coping strategies work fine. 
their coping strategies in fact are the only thing going for them . 
If you ever wonder if you’re a narcissist it doesn’t mean you don’t deserve help and counselling.

One can be a narcissist, but not harm other people as well. Or have BPD and still not have harmful behaviors because one can be aware of how it affects others. Maybe not empathically for a true  Narc, but intellectually. All these are labels to describe behaviors, but a person can have all these traits and not be diagnosed. I think it’s also harmful to not be aware of all these things in the world. Diagnosing or not - awareness is everything we have going for us. 

What prompts you to start your own therapy is up to your discretion. Usually it’s pain. Narcissists often feel incredible pain (they sometimes disassociate so they don’t actually feel it), but that’s usually what prompts a person to seek counseling. 
 

There is absolutely no shame in seeking treatment for your traumas and pain. Even if they are only visible in your behavior and they are not some gaping wound on your forehead. 

Sometimes others can be insightful to guide us to counseling and sometimes we make that decision on our own after we’ve done the same thing over and over and gotten the same results. 

 

Thank you.  I really appreciate your thoughts on this.  

[poppyfields]

On 7/17/2021 at 11:50 PM, AnnieB said:

I think if you self loathe and your self esteem is low some of your behaviors will be narcissistic. Narcissists loathe themselves deep down, their self esteem is all on the surface. Getting diagnosed with narcissism is very rare as narcissists simply don’t seek treatment because the world works for them just fine. Their coping strategies work fine. 
their coping strategies in fact are the only thing going for them . 
If you ever wonder if you’re a narcissist it doesn’t mean you don’t deserve help and counselling.

One can be a narcissist, but not harm other people as well. Or have BPD and still not have harmful behaviors because one can be aware of how it affects others. Maybe not empathically for a true  Narc, but intellectually. All these are labels to describe behaviors, but a person can have all these traits and not be diagnosed. I think it’s also harmful to not be aware of all these things in the world. Diagnosing or not - awareness is everything we have going for us. 

What prompts you to start your own therapy is up to your discretion. Usually it’s pain. Narcissists often feel incredible pain (they sometimes disassociate so they don’t actually feel it), but that’s usually what prompts a person to seek counseling. 
 

I second thanking you for this AnnieB, extremely insightful!!

And provides a whole n'other perspective that isn't often considered or recognized.

Which may even explain why my ex turned to drugs -- to ease the internal pain.

 

[basil67]

On 7/19/2021 at 5:44 AM, Olivia24 said:

Consider yourself the  cream of the crop.

Interesting how what we want changes between people.  I was writing down my non-negotiables on another thread and this comment made me realise something I missed out on: Humility.   I would never want someone who thinks they are better than everyone else.  

Quote

As far as  narcissism i think a  bit  of that  is actually  good. I  like a guy that takes pride  in his appearance and a guy with a  high opinion of  himself. 

Narcissism is a psychiatric diagnosis.  None of it's traits are related to a having a healthy amount of self esteem.  "healthy amount' being the operative phrase here.  But the self esteem is too high, then they become a knob head. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by basil67

[Miss Spider]

I wonder though if (most) narcissists are at least somewhat aware of the incongruity of reality vs their perceptions of themselves though?   I hope you don’t mind me using you as an example, but you say you put up with mistreatment from this guy. Wouldn’t a narcissist be like, ‘how could they treat me this way? Don’t they know who I am? Wouldn’t a narcissist lash out in some way towards the person, or feel the person is to blame for not recognizing their place,  instead of internalizing it as being their fault? I don’t really know much about this disorder as it’s not known to be responsive to medication, so forgive me if this is a dumb q. 

[Ami1uwant]

On 7/18/2021 at 3:44 PM, Olivia24 said:

I dont really  believe in "dating within your  own league". Putting yourself  in a  "league" is self-limiting. Consider yourself the  cream of the crop. As far as  narcissism i think a  bit  of that  is actually  good. I  like a guy that takes pride  in his appearance and a guy with a  high opinion of  himself. Now, if we are  on a date and he  keeps telling me  how  hot and  good  looking  he  is instead  of  how pretty  i am, then thats  not  good, lol.

every characteristic has a level of extremes.  Narcacistic is to the far end.

 

in your own league means being realistic in what you can date…

 

someone with a masters or dicyotsye degree isn’t staying someone with a GED/Hs diploma.

 

a doctor ir layer isn’t marrying a waiter or cashier

 

pretty woman movie isn’t reality.

[CaliforniaGirl]

Everyone has some degree of wanting to be admired, of thinking well of ourselves (hopefully!), and sometimes, we have jealousy of other's success or other things. NDP (as has been said, but I think it bears repeating) is serious and is its own actual designation that takes a real professional to DX.

We (not everyone, but many people) tend to want to demonize someone after a breakup. We also see someone who ignored us "even though we were good to them" as brutal and terrible, because...how could they? But that doesn't mean they had NPD. It doesn't mean THEY believed the world revolved around them. It means YOU believed the world revolved around them. And yet they still didn't give you what YOU wanted - all of their love. That isn't NPD, folks. That's one person being more into it than the other person.

Another thing to consider: We need to remember our own part in this. I did this myself at one time, so I'm not pointing fingers. But if *you* give someone tons of attention and admiration and bolstering and so on, then suddenly pull back, and that person is fully taken aback, that doesn't mean the person expects star treatment from everyone. It means you were one way, then suddenly, you were another way. From the ex's perspective, you may actually seem to have pulled a bait-and-switch. 

It's hard to hear, but sometimes, we train people in how to treat us. Anyone can be taken in by a con artist, anyone can be in a bad relationship. But if there's a series of them and nothing ever changes, it's time to look into one's own part that's playing into it, even if that's just choosing people who really aren't good people. JMO.

Edited July 20, 2021 by CaliforniaGirl
accidentally hit Post before finished

[poppyfields]

At the end of the day, once the RL is over, does it really matter?  

Who cares? All that's important is it's over, and hopefully you learned something to take with you..

As stated, in retrospect 6 years later, reading the list, my ex had 8 of the traits, but that still doesn't mean he's NPD necessarily, he was never diagnosed.  

I dont really care either way. I'm happy now and hope he is as well.

 

 

 

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

At the end of the day, once the RL is over, does it really matter?  

Who cares? All that's important is it's over, and hopefully you learned something to take with you..

As stated, in retrospect 6 years later, reading the list, my ex had 8 of the traits, but that still doesn't mean he's NPD necessarily, he was never diagnosed.  

I dont really care either way. I'm happy now and hope he is as well.

 

 

 

 

IMO, it does matter if it's a repeat thing, and the OP said she thought "most" of her exes had NPD. The reason it can matter is that if it's never addressed, it will just keep happening over and over again. And who wants to keep just going through misery over and over again?

This is JMO.

[Wiseman2]

On 7/17/2021 at 4:42 PM, Classicfiction said:

Correlation between narcissism and not that into you

Since they are only into themselves, how could they be into you?

Everyone is some sort of pawn in their ego maintenance or mirror for what they wish to see in that mirror. Someone "inferior", someone worthy of their magnificence, etc.

If they see any reflection of their real selves that is incongruent with their inflated self they get enraged and lash out to break that image in the mirror they can't handle seeing.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Wiseman2

[stillafool]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:48 PM, smackie9 said:

If the opportunity is there, and offered to have more what they desire, they are going to take it..men and women. Has nothing to do with Narcissism, it's just plain human nature to do so. True Narcissists pick the weak and easily manipulated so they can get away with their own behavior, and have control over their partners behavior. It doesn't have anything to do with "settling". It's about power tripping/control.

People like yourself that are being rejected, unhappy with dating, and haven't met the right one, try to find reasons/excuses as a way to deal with it. What you should be doing is spending more time on yourself, your self esteem, your perspective, and attitude. When you look /feel healthy, physically and mentally, you make better choices, and it attracts the same.

Unfortunately this is it right here.  We know a lot of men love young, pretty women and if the opportunity arises that one of these are interested he's going to take it unless he's in a serious relationship or marriage.  This has been happening since the beginning of time.  Especially if he is attractive and successful. I don't think in this case it has anything to do with NPD which gets thrown around a lot in the break up forum.  Obviously the guys you are attracted to are good looking, etc., and that is what attracted you to them.  So most times they are going to go for as good as they can get.  You can't help who you are attracted to and if that person wants them too they're going to go for it.  

[Miss Spider]

4 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Everyone has some degree of wanting to be admired, of thinking well of ourselves (hopefully!), and sometimes, we have jealousy of other's success or other things. NDP (as has been said, but I think it bears repeating) is serious and is its own actual designation that takes a real professional to DX.

We (not everyone, but many people) tend to want to demonize someone after a breakup. We also see someone who ignored us "even though we were good to them" as brutal and terrible, because...how could they? But that doesn't mean they had NPD. It doesn't mean THEY believed the world revolved around them. It means YOU believed the world revolved around them. And yet they still didn't give you what YOU wanted - all of their love. That isn't NPD, folks. That's one person being more into it than the other person.

Another thing to consider: We need to remember our own part in this. I did this myself at one time, so I'm not pointing fingers. But if *you* give someone tons of attention and admiration and bolstering and so on, then suddenly pull back, and that person is fully taken aback, that doesn't mean the person expects star treatment from everyone. It means you were one way, then suddenly, you were another way. From the ex's perspective, you may actually seem to have pulled a bait-and-switch. 

It's hard to hear, but sometimes, we train people in how to treat us. Anyone can be taken in by a con artist, anyone can be in a bad relationship. But if there's a series of them and nothing ever changes, it's time to look into one's own part that's playing into it, even if that's just choosing people who really aren't good people. JMO.

I also want to mention with the whole armchair diagnosis thing… I’ve just casually noticed that people that are quick to actually say their exes had this disorder usually lack self-accountability themselves. My ex acted crazy and stole my dog, but that’s not because he’s a sociopath. It’s ‘cause I dated his friend and broke his heart, so I get it. 
 

 I noticed a lot of these people who point the finger tend to use terms like ‘empath’ to describe themselves. It’s just their way to say ” I’m a much more sensitive, sweet person than most” and seriously they can be some of the most inconsiderate, egotistical people. Haha  Just thinking of this one chick I know who writes all of this “empath” stuff on her social media, and how her ex was a narc for days , how to watch out for them. Yet from what I’ve seen she is rude/closed-minded at anyone who disagrees with her at all on anything on there. For someone who believes herself to be more empathetic than most, she definitely seems to lack a lot of awareness on her reactions towards others or how others can feel differently. I have to believe that extends to her ex too. Not saying he was a nice guy.

 

Not saying everyone who believes their ex had a disorder or who calls themselves empath is like this, btw. There is certain sect/profile, though, I’m beginning to notice. 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[poppyfields]

2 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

I noticed a lot of these people who point the finger tend to use things pop culture terms like ‘empath’ to describe themselves. A lot of them say it like” I’m a much more sensitive, sweet person than most” and seriously they can be some of the most inconsiderate, egotistical people.

I agree! 

[Alpacalia]

On 7/17/2021 at 1:42 PM, Classicfiction said:

Has anyone else noticed that these two dynamics may be related??

Not so much.

Narcissists typically suck the life out of you. 

They're exhausting to be around.

[princessaurora]

2 hours ago, stillafool said:

You can't help who you are attracted to and if that person wants them too they're going to go for it.  

Exactly! Just because someone finds another they're more attracted to for whatever reason  doesn't make them a narcissist, jerk, evil person. But yet people will call them that to make themselves feel better. When we feel a connection with a person, if  we believe  that feeling may be reciprocated we're going to want to act on it. And it's not just solely based on physical appearance. It's charisma, presence, their vibe, just a strong magnetic pull to another person that we generally can't control. I suppose you could try to suppress it , but in the long run, that wouldn't be in anyone's best interest. It will just cause resentment towards the person they stay with and is not allowing that person to find someone who thinks the world of her/him which is what they deserve, not someone that stays with them out of pity. 

The narcissist card is played way too much, but most of the time it's just incompatibility. 

 

[Miss Spider]

It’s also not necessarily wrong to consider your own self-interest first and foremost. Ayn Rand discusses a whole philosophy of ethics  around this 

[poppyfields]

17 minutes ago, princessaurora said:

The narcissist card is played way too much, but most of the time it's just incompatibility. 

 

Of course, but people love to toss such labels around to lessen the pain of rejection.   If their ex was a narcissist, or Borderline or whatever, it makes them feel less rejected.

It's a form of blame-shifting imo; I also think it's unhealthy as how is one to learn, grow, evolve if they don't introspect and own their part after a RL ends, but instead toss the blame on their partner for being a narcissist?!!  

Edited July 21, 2021 by poppyfields

[Allupinnit]

I haven't read the replies but by definition a narcissist cannot be into you, nor anyone else, for they're only into themselves and their own ends.  They will destroy anyone who gets in their way.