Correlation between narcissism and not that into you

[Classicfiction]

So, I have started to develop this theory through my past and present experience in the dating world.  Maybe others can see it too? I'm hoping for some feedback that will help me in the future.

Basically, I've felt that the majority of guys I've dated have fit a narcissitic profile.  But something else that I've noticed, is that they go on to have what appear to be successful relationships.  And these successful relationships, 9 times out of 10 are with women who are either younger than me, more attractive than me or both.

What I'm wondering is... could it be possible that I'm perceiving these men as narcissistic because they are not that into me??

For example, a lot of the characteristics of narcissism... like gas lighting, cold shoulder, blame shifting... it fits with the way a guy behaves when he's settling or still open to better possibilities.

So maybe I've just been dating outside my league?  

You know how they say a guy isn't going to refuse sex.  If I'm a co-dependent doormat, then I'm possibly just allowing men to use me while they're still searching for "the one."

Has anyone else noticed that these two dynamics may be related??

[Wiseman2]

19 minutes ago, Classicfiction said:

I've just been dating outside my league?  

It's doubtful. Unfortunately it seems more like you've some bad experiences with selfish men.

[Miss Spider]

Yea only a small % of the population actually has NPD. A lot of people are accused of having it by their exes though, myself included.  It’s more likely that most of the guys you dated just exhibited arrogant, selfish, or dismissive behavior at some point  rather than they actually had that personality disorder. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Classicfiction]

1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said:

Yea only a small % of the population actually has NPD. A lot of people are accused of having it by their exes though, myself included.  It’s more likely that most of the guys you dated just exhibited arrogant, selfish, or dismissive behavior at some point  rather than they actually had that personality disorder. 

You know, I honestly don't know if I trust Robert Hare's statistics.  And thats why I was questioning the whole narcissism as a pd thing.  Because it just seems excessive that I've encountered so much of this 1%.

If these guys are able to treat the younger, prettier women with enough respect to maintain a relationship, then maybe thats a factor...

[Miss Spider]

 I guess it would be how you define narcissism then. Most people have some kind of narcissistic, egotistical qualities about them at any given point. Some more than others and in certain instances more than others. But narcissistic personality disorder has pretty particular criteria

[CaliforniaGirl]

I honestly don't think so. And not to be a B, but I'd be more inclined to think that the person assuming most people who broke up with her must have a serious personality disorder was the narcissist. I do think it was probably "he's just not that into you." 

[CaliforniaGirl]

2 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

Yea only a small % of the population actually has NPD. A lot of people are accused of having it by their exes though, myself included.  It’s more likely that most of the guys you dated just exhibited arrogant, selfish, or dismissive behavior at some point  rather than they actually had that personality disorder. 

A fair number of guys here seem to say their exes were "crazy" and had BPD and a fair number of women say their exes had NPD. It's like some people believe nobody is allowed to just not be that into them. So they attack with a label of a serious disorder.

[Miss Spider]

6 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

A fair number of guys here seem to say their exes were "crazy" and had BPD and a fair number of women say their exes had NPD. It's like some people believe nobody is allowed to just not be that into them. So they attack with a label of a serious disorder.

Girl, you’re telling me. Ive seen the break up forum. I’ve seen strings of texts where my exes were accusing me of having NPD and then even people here in old threads diagnosing me with NPD, BPD, ABC, DEFG, and I’m, dude, I’m just trying to have fun and live my life doing minimal damage to myself and others. Sorry I didn’t react the way you wanted me to so now I have a personality disorder

Edited July 17, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Miss Spider]

OK so this is the DSM-5 criteria for Narcissistic Personality disorder: 

 

Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by: 1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.

2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations.

3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high- status people (or institutions).
AND
4. Requires excessive admiration.
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the

5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.

6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain

7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
B.
Pathological personality traits in the following domain: 1. Antagonism, characterized by:
DSM-IV and DSM-5 Criteria for the Personality Disorders
trauma).
DSM-5 Criteria - Revised June 2011
© 2012 American Psychiatric Association. All Rights Reserved. See Terms & Conditions of Use for more information.
The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose narcissistic personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert;

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.

9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.

 

—————-

so, while there is some overlap, there’s obviously a lot there that could not  be accounted for by just being “not that into you” and some of it only what person themself would be aware of ( like their motivations) It’s too hard to say. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[poppyfields]

8 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

OK so this is the DSM-5 criteria for Narcissistic Personality disorder: 

 

Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by: 1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.

2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations.

3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high- status people (or institutions).
AND
4. Requires excessive admiration.
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the

5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.

6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain

7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
B.
Pathological personality traits in the following domain: 1. Antagonism, characterized by:
DSM-IV and DSM-5 Criteria for the Personality Disorders
trauma).
DSM-5 Criteria - Revised June 2011
© 2012 American Psychiatric Association. All Rights Reserved. See Terms & Conditions of Use for more information.
The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose narcissistic personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert;

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.

9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.

 

—————-

so, while there is some overlap, there’s obviously a lot there that could not  be accounted for by just being “not that into you” 

Oh dear... 

Does someone with NPD need possess all those traits to be classified as such? 

Or just a few?

In any event, thank you for posting cookies. Much appreciated. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by poppyfields

[Miss Spider]

Oops sorry , good question. At least 5/9 

[basil67]

@poppyfields  I had to reformat this, so forgive me if I've made any errors

The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose narcissistic personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b): a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.

b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations.

AND

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.

b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:

1. Antagonism, characterized by:

a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert;  self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.

b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).

Edited July 18, 2021 by basil67

[Miss Spider]

Oops nvm they revised it in 5. There’s actually 2 different models used. You’re right 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

3 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

Basically, I've felt that the majority of guys I've dated have fit a narcissitic profile.  

For example, a lot of the characteristics of narcissism... like gas lighting, cold shoulder, blame shifting....

Gas lighting, cold shoulder, blame shifting...these are all popular culture references.  They are not indicative of a diagnosis of Narcissism.    

[Classicfiction]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I honestly don't think so. And not to be a B, but I'd be more inclined to think that the person assuming most people who broke up with her must have a serious personality disorder was the narcissist. I do think it was probably "he's just not that into you." 

Oh Ive wondered if I myself could be the narcissist and two guys Ive dated have said as much.  But both guys also made me feel shitty about myself on more than one occassion.  I do think there was another woman, unattainable or otherwise that factored into the equation with those two.

I felt like a place holder and it just didnt feel good.

[Classicfiction]

But as far as the waivering sense of worth, vascilating between overvaluing oneself to becoming deflated and feeling worthless... I can actually see myself in that at times.  So, I'm willing to look at myself too.

Lately Ive been looking at maybe me thinking these guys are into me, is an overvaluation.

My ex husband used to ask me what I was actually doing for him.  I believe he did/does see me as self centered.  

 

[mortensorchid]

I think the two things are separate issues.  Narcissistic people are all about me me me, and the narcissism in the world today is out of control.  If a person is not that into you it's not strictly based on their being narcissistic or not.  There are only a few people out there who have true NPD.  I think people lack courtesy for one another anymore, even just bumping into someone and saying "excuse me".  And that won't change unfortunately. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, Classicfiction said:

Oh Ive wondered if I myself could be the narcissist and two guys Ive dated have said as much.  But both guys also made me feel shitty about myself on more than one occassion.  I do think there was another woman, unattainable or otherwise that factored into the equation with those two.

I felt like a place holder and it just didnt feel good.

Why don't you all stop pointing fingers and just look for somebody who is more compatible?

[glows]

If you are needing more insight about yourself, I suggest speaking to the correct qualified professionals who are licensed to practice and diagnose. Don’t diagnose yourself, please. This is an exercise in futility and grossly misleading in your journey or better sense of self. 

I believe you’ll probably find a lot more answers about your past and what has happened if you focus on you, not on the people you were with. 

[Lotsgoingon]

So if I read your right, your tendency is to be a doormat?

Well if that's the case, then a doormat communicates to the other person that they aren't really serious (you probably don't think you're communicating this). The man probably brings out his worst side because they're partly reacting to you.

There is nothing attractive about being a doormat. Doormats are boring. Doormats don't create excitement in the other person. Doormats undermine basic respect. 

So if I'm understanding your story, I would say your doormat behavior encourages selfish, short-term behavior in some guys. Not defending the guys, but we communicate what we want with our behavior. If they think you just want sex, then some will just go for that, even if deeper down, they are interested in something serious. They'll just assume the something serious will be with someone else. 

[Ami1uwant]

2 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

But as far as the waivering sense of worth, vascilating between overvaluing oneself to becoming deflated and feeling worthless... I can actually see myself in that at times.  So, I'm willing to look at myself too.

Lately Ive been looking at maybe me thinking these guys are into me, is an overvaluation.

My ex husband used to ask me what I was actually doing for him.  I believe he did/does see me as self centered.  

 

Serious question…how much of this is on you?

 

what you perceive as gas lighting might be them just lashing out at problems with you that you don’t realize you are doing.  If you are trying to date people out of your league they might just be using you. Out of your league isn’t just looks…it could also be economic or class.

[Classicfiction]

23 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

So if I read your right, your tendency is to be a doormat?

Well if that's the case, then a doormat communicates to the other person that they aren't really serious (you probably don't think you're communicating this). The man probably brings out his worst side because they're partly reacting to you.

There is nothing attractive about being a doormat. Doormats are boring. Doormats don't create excitement in the other person. Doormats undermine basic respect. 

So if I'm understanding your story, I would say your doormat behavior encourages selfish, short-term behavior in some guys. Not defending the guys, but we communicate what we want with our behavior. If they think you just want sex, then some will just go for that, even if deeper down, they are interested in something serious. They'll just assume the something serious will be with someone else. 

Yeah.. actually the most recent guy has alluded to me being boring to him.  And also asked if maybe my cat might be bored -_-.  That probably has something to do with it.  Thank you for explaining that!

So what would your advice be, as far as an action I could take to improve myself.. or on how to read guys better?

[basil67]

One person's boring is another person's interesting.  

I'm wondering what prompted him to tell you that you're boring.  What had happened before he said this? 

[AnnieB]

9 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

So, I have started to develop this theory through my past and present experience in the dating world.  Maybe others can see it too? I'm hoping for some feedback that will help me in the future.

Basically, I've felt that the majority of guys I've dated have fit a narcissitic profile.  But something else that I've noticed, is that they go on to have what appear to be successful relationships.  And these successful relationships, 9 times out of 10 are with women who are either younger than me, more attractive than me or both.

What I'm wondering is... could it be possible that I'm perceiving these men as narcissistic because they are not that into me??

For example, a lot of the characteristics of narcissism... like gas lighting, cold shoulder, blame shifting... it fits with the way a guy behaves when he's settling or still open to better possibilities.

So maybe I've just been dating outside my league?  

You know how they say a guy isn't going to refuse sex.  If I'm a co-dependent doormat, then I'm possibly just allowing men to use me while they're still searching for "the one."

Has anyone else noticed that these two dynamics may be related??

Best thing I ever heard about looking at a narcissistic exe’s new perfect relationship was - now you know what it looks on the outside. 

[AnnieB]

5 hours ago, Classicfiction said:

Oh Ive wondered if I myself could be the narcissist and two guys Ive dated have said as much.  But both guys also made me feel shitty about myself on more than one occassion.  I do think there was another woman, unattainable or otherwise that factored into the equation with those two.

I felt like a place holder and it just didnt feel good.

I think if you self loathe and your self esteem is low some of your behaviors will be narcissistic. Narcissists loathe themselves deep down, their self esteem is all on the surface. Getting diagnosed with narcissism is very rare as narcissists simply don’t seek treatment because the world works for them just fine. Their coping strategies work fine. 
their coping strategies in fact are the only thing going for them . 
If you ever wonder if you’re a narcissist it doesn’t mean you don’t deserve help and counselling.

One can be a narcissist, but not harm other people as well. Or have BPD and still not have harmful behaviors because one can be aware of how it affects others. Maybe not empathically for a true  Narc, but intellectually. All these are labels to describe behaviors, but a person can have all these traits and not be diagnosed. I think it’s also harmful to not be aware of all these things in the world. Diagnosing or not - awareness is everything we have going for us. 

What prompts you to start your own therapy is up to your discretion. Usually it’s pain. Narcissists often feel incredible pain (they sometimes disassociate so they don’t actually feel it), but that’s usually what prompts a person to seek counseling. 
 

There is absolutely no shame in seeking treatment for your traumas and pain. Even if they are only visible in your behavior and they are not some gaping wound on your forehead. 

Sometimes others can be insightful to guide us to counseling and sometimes we make that decision on our own after we’ve done the same thing over and over and gotten the same results.