Catfish

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

She was suggesting ways you might meet likeminded women, not date ideas. That way you form the connection first. And then, ask them out on a date. The old-fashioned way.

Ok lets just bring the elephant in the room to the front of the stage. Inherently the people I find attractive are unlikely to ever find me attractive, even when by some miracle meet someone I can have  a conversation with. Let me walk you through the problems 

1: Lack of attraction: my counter to this is being confident in who I am, not much of a counter but better than moping.

2: Lack of connection, even when there is some common ground this does not happen

3: Then things usually go to "lets go for a drink" and we know what happens here, lets just say not conforming costs me

All of these I do try work at mitigating the substantial downsides but its like bringing a knife to a battle of tanks. It sounds ridiculous but I can sort of raise my game sometimes mostly when I really like the person in front of me but otherwise its a case of damage control being, "well leave the best impression you can with not too much downside" , this method is usually when I turn the dates into business meetings of sorts, me simply resorting to the hard nosed environment I seem to work best in.

Mostly I am getting used to the idea I have nothing to offer anyone and will never really share anything with anyone either.

 

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

ah that was rude-nasty one,

from my own experiences the majority of women would have had no interest in me, but most times they would at least say I was a "nice guy"

I know there is also the saying "nice guys finish last" and so on but nevertheless I think its better to be a nice guy and gentleman regardless.

Id guess that you are a gentleman actually but are scarred from the difficulties of dating. maybe try and keep the sunny side up and say ok lets forget all the bad dates and tackle it with fresh gusto. new found positivity.

I thought Prudence's post was very good there- that could be your roadmap forward.

Its really rather typical of the experiences I have had. I find nice guy rather patronizing to be honest, what it really means "not good enough". 

Yip I am looking for the sunny side up, unfortunately what I tend to see is the exact opposite, it would be easier I actually thought I could succeed at this, instead I have taken the approach of trying to contrive some sort of positive experience which is a bit like buying cake opening the box and finding there are 2 crumbs. 

Its all perspective, I think some of the dates I have had would wow for some people, they were just not wow for me at all.

[5x5]

3 hours ago, Prudence V said:

or going for coffee after a protest about the redevelopment of the River Club,

Which reminds me, my first date with my wife over 25 years ago was to a protest rally.

[Prudence V]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Then things usually go to "lets go for a drink" and we know what happens here, lets just say not conforming costs me

Plenty of people don’t drink (alcohol), including most Muslim people. It only matters if you act all judgmental about other people drinking. If you say “sure”, and then order something soft, most people wouldn’t even pass comment. Those that do, you can shrug and say that it doesn’t agree with you, and no one would push harder than that unless they’ve got shares in a brewery. Most women would be relieved that you’re not “one of those guys” who’s going to get drunk and aggressive and spoil the evening. 
 

The only time I’ve been out and seen anyone pressuring anyone else to drink alcohol was young guys pressuring each other, for reasons of machismo. You don’t strike me as the kind of guy who would get caught up in that, so I wouldn’t place too much weight on this concern. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Prudence V

[Prudence V]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Nobody is entitled to anything barring the right to be treated humanely.

As a SAn, you’d know that this “right” is more of an aspiration. Ask anyone who survived apartheid, or continues to battle racism, misogyny, extreme poverty, etc. 
 

It is a good interpersonal skill to foster, though. 

[elaine567]

16 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

Plenty of people don’t drink (alcohol), including most Muslim people. It only matters if you act all judgmental about other people drinking. If you say “sure”, and then order something soft, most people wouldn’t even pass comment. Those that do, you can shrug and say that it doesn’t agree with you, and no one would push harder than that unless they’ve got shares in a brewery. Most women would be relieved that you’re not “one of those guys” who’s going to get drunk and aggressive and spoil the evening. 
 

The only time I’ve been out and seen anyone pressuring anyone else to drink alcohol was young guys pressuring each other, for reasons of machismo. You don’t strike me as the kind of guy who would get caught up in that, so I wouldn’t place too much weight on this concern. 

I think a lot of people  are seriously into their health and fitness so not drinking alcohol is pretty common.
I don't really think not drinking is much of an issue, but not wanting to go to bars and places were alcohol is served I guess is.
Zero alcohol, low alcohol drinks are commonplace and there are always soft drinks, coffee, tea and water.
I have never been much of a drinker, but I have spent a lot of time not drinking alcohol  in bars, cafes and venues where alcohol freely flowed, It is called being sociable.
 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Prudence V said:

As a SAn, you’d know that this “right” is more of an aspiration. Ask anyone who survived apartheid, or continues to battle racism, misogyny, extreme poverty, etc. 
 

It is a good interpersonal skill to foster, though. 

Exactly that, to some extent I am vilified here but each day I try do something positive for someone else, be it give that guy guarding cars some food, some money, a brief conversation where he looks at me like I an mad wanting to know how his day is going.

Let that older lady go in front of me in a store que. Simple things really.

You all may think I have my head in the clouds, sit with models all day but I too have sat in the crowded hot train for hours because it's broken down, for many years this was my transport, I too have walked miles when said train simply left me stranded. Equally I have has amazing experiences doing what I love. 

Maybe my utter failing at dating has made me more conscious of the need to actually try do some good each day.

Someone gained fame with these words "I have a dream" and dating for me is that, I regret not being attractive enough for A because I know I could have made that work.

[chillii]

The last assumption on the planet l'd be thinking is za sitting round with models all day or lapping up some life of luxury ahhhh nope, l don't think so.

Someone mentioned above , somethings happening when a date meets you. which l said threads and threads ago myself that was pretty obvious and l knew even back then what it was and gave suggestions but alas. l think given your attitudes and views , your only hope is that something just falls into you lap with mutual natural chemistry and click and so none of it matters with her. But eh l don't think from memory you even believe in any of that stuff either so there's not much anyone can do.

[ZA Dater]

15 hours ago, chillii said:

The last assumption on the planet l'd be thinking is za sitting round with models all day or lapping up some life of luxury ahhhh nope, l don't think so.

Someone mentioned above , somethings happening when a date meets you. which l said threads and threads ago myself that was pretty obvious and l knew even back then what it was and gave suggestions but alas. l think given your attitudes and views , your only hope is that something just falls into you lap with mutual natural chemistry and click and so none of it matters with her. But eh l don't think from memory you even believe in any of that stuff either so there's not much anyone can do.

I think the something happens before they even meet me in the sense they are never actually very attracted to me to begin with so meeting me does not exactly make that attraction grow, in other word what happens to them is what happens to me. 

At the end of the day one either meets the criteria of attraction or not and I never do which I guess is a blessing because I can go to that market and walk around, sit and eat breakfast on my own, look at miss blond walking up and down, having most of the guys leer at her and know that well I am not shopping in that market. I do not even really resent that fact too much anymore because even if she did look at me there would be some or other issue 'wrong" with me it would be a non starter. 

Maybe I am just jaded.

 

[Foxhall]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

because I can go to that market and walk around, sit and eat breakfast on my own

sometimes that is ok too. though you could try and engage a nice lady who might perhaps also be sitting alone.

Just other thing crossing my mind there ,

How do you shape-up in terms of material things you can offer them,

Are you wealthy? Have you your own house? 

Do you have any sisters? (different point- sometimes guys without sisters are not as good with the ladies as guys who grew up with sisters)

[Weezy1973]

It boils down to @ZA Dater is only attracted to women that aren’t attracted to him. He’s not at peace with it or happy being single (or else these epic threads wouldn’t exist). But he’s also literally not willing to do anything out of his comfort zone to change. So a life of unhappiness is what he chooses.

[elaine567]

Forget about Miss Desirable Blond because you are right it would be a non starter as she will be already dating or looking for Mr Extremely Desirable and that is not you.
Stop day dreaming and jolt yourself back into reality.
Look for someone average, like yourself who is also eating breakfast on her own...
Smile, be friendly, make small talk... Relax.
Expect nothing. Just a nice chat.

[bene]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I can go to that market and walk around, sit and eat breakfast on my own, look at miss blond walking up and down, having most of the guys leer at her and know that well I am not shopping in that market.

This reminds me of a joke about an economist walking down the street when he steps on a $100 bill lying on the ground but decides to walk right on by because if that had really been a $100 bill, someone else would have picked it up already. 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Forget about Miss Desirable Blond because you are right it would be a non starter as she will be already dating or looking for Mr Extremely Desirable and that is not you.
Stop day dreaming and jolt yourself back into reality.
Look for someone average, like yourself who is also eating breakfast on her own...
Smile, be friendly, make small talk... Relax.
Expect nothing. Just a nice chat.

No thanks. I'd rather just enjoy a great breakfast on my own, at least I can make the food "wow' and enjoy that over company I really do not want. Reality is I can have a really nice breakfast, I can go for a really nice walk, I can have a really nice swim. None of these activities would be enhanced by having company that I do not find "really nice". 

As an aside its rare to see anyone eating on their own.  

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

It boils down to @ZA Dater is only attracted to women that aren’t attracted to him. He’s not at peace with it or happy being single (or else these epic threads wouldn’t exist). But he’s also literally not willing to do anything out of his comfort zone to change. So a life of unhappiness is what he chooses.

Change to what exactly? Its all very well to say that but I wont wake up tomorrow and suddenly find people attractive I did not find attractive the day prior. Likewise people will not find me anymore attractive tomorrow than they did yesterday, sure I can put on a clown act but why there is still next to zero chance of actually being attractive. 

Its not as unhappy as it might seem, every so often there is something great, there are work things I do which I quite enjoy, its enjoyable trying to do the impossible, its enjoyable being able to get good insight, its enjoyable becoming mentally tough dealing with unrealistic unreasonable people.

But yes the losses area also huge, two or three times a year this becomes very acute, more so when I look around me and more so when I think about the "could have made more of that" "wish I was good enough for her". The gamble I take is living without having ever lived.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Change to what exactly?

Change what you do, not who you are. You have been given so many suggestions on things you can do differently and you refuse. You stay in your cycle: Tinder, “arrangements”, occasionally bars / clubs with your player acquaintances. Rinse and repeat. 
 

You were just given a number of ideas on things you could do to meet likeminded people. But you just refused. You’ve have been suggested to go to therapy many times, which you refuse. Get off superficial ways to date (OLD, bars / clubs etc.) you refuse. Expand your social circle beyond your player acquaintances. You refuse. Move!! You refuse. 
 

If you’re unwilling to change what you’re doing, nothings going to change.

[elaine567]

I guess you are now too old and too set in your ways to "change" anything.
You may be  a bit unhappy with your lot, you may be profoundly miserable, but it is still not enough to jolt you out of your comfort zone...

Edited October 14, 2021 by elaine567

[dramafreezone]

On 10/13/2021 at 11:30 AM, ZA Dater said:

Its all very well to say that but I wont wake up tomorrow and suddenly find people attractive I did not find attractive the day prior. Likewise people will not find me anymore attractive tomorrow than they did yesterday, sure I can put on a clown act but why there is still next to zero chance of actually being attractive. 

But did you ever stop to think that your mind may be playing a trick on you?

When was the last time you had mutual attraction with another woman?  Like you were both highly attracted to the other?  That's going to happen to most men just by sheer randomness.  Nearly every guy that doesn't look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame (which you do not) will just do it for an attractive woman on an instinctual level.

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

But did you ever stop to think that your mind may be playing a trick on you?

When was the last time you had mutual attraction with another woman?  Like you were both highly attracted to the other?  That's going to happen to most men just by sheer randomness.  Nearly every guy that doesn't look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame (which you do not) will just do it for an attractive woman on an instinctual level.

The answer to that is simply never. I guess it really depends on what a person finds attractive, again I suppose given enough time and enough desperation anyone can convince themselves to find anyone attractive if there are simply no other options, I'd like to believe MOST people do not need to do this. 

For me all dating is, its a heavily one sided game whereby as a guy you basically stand in some sort of metaphorical line, hope you have something that the guy next you does not which is enough to impress whoever you find to be attractive. Have I had people find me attractive who I MAY have been interested in, sure but I need to go back around 15 years to when last that actually happened. 

Mostly its just a case of "never good enough" which I guess has just resigned me to what is. No matter what I actually try, how transparent and honest, how much interest I show there is ALWAYS someone better and more attractive so I simply arrived at a point of simply not bothering so when I go to a function and there is some pretty lady there, sure I will speak when spoken to and it will be a business conversation because that is all I know how to do, every single time I have opened up I just get rejected so if I offer up nothing then rejection matters me about as much as whether I have tomato or avocado on my sandwich.

Add to the fact women make no effort with me so why should I make any effort? 

[ZA Dater]

On 10/13/2021 at 9:55 PM, Weezy1973 said:

Change what you do, not who you are. You have been given so many suggestions on things you can do differently and you refuse. You stay in your cycle: Tinder, “arrangements”, occasionally bars / clubs with your player acquaintances. Rinse and repeat. 
 

You were just given a number of ideas on things you could do to meet likeminded people. But you just refused. You’ve have been suggested to go to therapy many times, which you refuse. Get off superficial ways to date (OLD, bars / clubs etc.) you refuse. Expand your social circle beyond your player acquaintances. You refuse. Move!! You refuse. 
 

If you’re unwilling to change what you’re doing, nothings going to change.

Frankly why should I? I do not know a single person who has had to change anything about themselves to date, they rock up and pretty much have a pick of whoever they want to date, granted they spew the biggest lot of whatever to try and charm and spin the most amazing nonsense which even has me amazed from time to time or they simply throw around good looks and charm and well its easy. Add in a few drinks for good measure.

 6 years ago I decided to be a better version, I decided to change the way I looked, I decided to summon up as much confidence as I could, I decided to really actually try change what was, I opened my mind to dating possibilities and this has honestly got me nowhere because the same issues then are the same issues now, you can tell me however many times you like that those issues do not matter but everything around me suggests they and they are vital. 

Likeminded people is not enough, just because they are like minded does not mean I will find them attractive, often I find people totally different to me as being more attractive because they are different in some way or another. 

I liked the yoga instructor, nah they did not work, I liked A that did not work, I liked K that did not work, I liked M who I worked with for 4 years and that did not work all these people had one fundamental thing in common they all have warm personalities, all are attractive to me as a whole rather than attractive because of one attribute.  

Then add in people who want to go out with me who I have zero interest in, there is one begging me to go out with her now but there is nothing attractive about her, I think where I am different is now unless the person has some sort of long term interest to me I am simply not interested at all. All of the above were people I saw long term interest with in some way or another. 

[ZA Dater]

On 10/14/2021 at 1:05 PM, elaine567 said:

I guess you are now too old and too set in your ways to "change" anything.
You may be  a bit unhappy with your lot, you may be profoundly miserable, but it is still not enough to jolt you out of your comfort zone...

Fundamentally tell me this, who really has the ability to choose, is it the guy? I think not.

Looks are fundamental, the other day I went out for the first time in a long time and it was much the same, like with like and I got no attention the entire evening. As a person I have just conditioned myself to this. Over there at the bar is Chad and not too far away as are the "options" for the evening, all Chad needs to do is spin some believable nonsense and the body language changes, she is trying to engage with him, showing him interest and well suddenly it is he who has the choice.

Me, I can have a conversation, I can ask her about life, I can talk about many things but I never get the attention Chad does, that is what looks can do for you, there NOTHING I can say or do which can reverse that scenario, Chad starts goofing around my loss becomes greater because I have no way to counter that.

A great example was a personal trainer I once met, a friend of mine was keen on her and we ran into her at breakfast once, he invited her to join the group of us, he ignored her to chat to someone else so I decided to try have a conversation and it was a nice conversation and look within what I can actually do I tried to show some interest, guess what at the end of the breakfast I got a shake of the hand and he got a kiss on the cheek, this last gesture sums up how women treat me on the whole, at arms length.

The change I want is a change in outcome but the reality is I have nothing to really trade or work with to get a better outcome with the people I want better outcomes with. Have you ever chase a guy you really liked, why did you chase him and rather not settle for someone you knew liked you?

I am unhappy doing everything on me own, I am unhappy actually getting nowhere with this but if I have to carry that around well then I have to carry it around.

[bene]

23 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Over there at the bar is Chad and not too far away as are the "options" for the evening, all Chad needs to do is spin some believable nonsense and the body language changes, she is trying to engage with him, showing him interest and well suddenly it is he who has the choice.

And you conclude that the main difference between you and “Chad” is looks? You look fine. I’m sure there are enough men in your attractiveness level who are successful with women. 

For what it’s worth, all these women who put in no effort whatsoever according to you are judged far more harshly based on their looks. It’s not a competition of course but society places much more value on women’s looks than men’s. Personally I have never heard a woman insist that a man should look like a model (this doesn’t mean that they don’t have any preferences at all). There is far more leeway for men in looks department.

Could it be that you are simply not attracted to women? Hormones should have done the job to have some kind of sexual contact with women over the years.

Edited October 15, 2021 by bene

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, bene said:

And you conclude that the main difference between you and “Chad” is looks? You look fine. I’m sure there are enough men in your attractiveness level who are successful with women. 

For what it’s worth, all these women who put in no effort whatsoever according to you are judged far more harshly based on their looks. It’s not a competition of course but society places much more value on women’s looks than men’s. Personally I have never heard a woman insist that a man should look like a model (this doesn’t mean that they don’t have any preferences at all). There is far more leeway for men in looks department.

Could it be that you are simply not attracted to women? Hormones should have done the job to have some kind of sexual contact with women over the years.

I simply know the ones I want to sleep with will never have any interest in me and they never do.  For a whole variety of reasons the biggest of which is no experience a ONS will never work for me so I am always needing to form some sort of connection, for me that is the foundation but that never happens because whoever just has better choices than someone like me. Its for this reason that arrangements are of no interest either.

Simply I just look around, people I know they get lavished with attention from women, there is always a sense those women actually want them and nobody really wants me in that way, its telling most guys get greeted with a kiss on the cheek, I get greeted with a handshake. I always notice this. 

I remember that ill advised date when I actually tried to kiss her and that was a total awkward disaster, not exactly what confidence is built on!!

 

[Foxhall]

37 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I liked the yoga instructor, nah they did not work, I liked A that did not work, I liked K that did not work, I liked M who I worked with for 4 years and that did not work all these people had one fundamental thing in common they all have warm personalities, all are attractive to me as a whole rather than attractive because of one attribute.  

Thats reasonable enough, at least your finding attraction in some instances, I completely get the warm personalities and as we mentioned before you need something to ignite your interest in getting involved in the conversation

did you try getting to know any of these even purely on friendship terms, one of them could give you a few pointers maybe about where you could make subtle improvements and so on,

having a close female friend can be a help I always found, even if you have to grin and bear that she does'nt fancy you as boyfriend material,

What are your cooking skills like, could you invite a woman around and cook nice food for her,

You need to find this more romantic side within you, any of the above four you found attractive, what did you do to impress them?

Did you surprise them with a bold invite away on a trip together- taking the initiative and being bold, not passive,

You seem to get lots of dates which suggests your an attractive prospect yourself on paper,

try to believe in yourself more on the actual date- "you are the prize" as someone suggested earlier and you are a damn good prize.

you mention looks a lot- you could try a hard fitness regime and put in a huge effort to build up muscles and so on, if you feel that will make you more confident in yourself,

Finally then I always think there are a lot of attractive women out there- the majority of women like to look good and so on, the number of women you find attractive should not be such a narrow pool,

I agree its not easy to find attractive looking, warm personality and feeling comfortable with- but nevertheless there should be plenty out there.

 

[elaine567]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

so I decided to try have a conversation and it was a nice conversation and look within what I can actually do I tried to show some interest, guess what at the end of the breakfast I got a shake of the hand and he got a kiss on the cheek, this last gesture sums up how women treat me on the whole, at arms length.

That I guess is because of the vibe you give off.
She treated you formally and him informally.
You like a  business associate, a  doctor, a bank manager, a client... a formal interaction, him as a friend and potential lover.
 People tend to mirror, so I guess she perceived you as being formal and holding her at arm's length so she reciprocated in kind.