Catfish

[basil67]

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I agree with you, apart from the fact I have NEVER EVER had ANY lady actually arrive and make an effort with me, its one way traffic on my part, must carry the entire conversation and pass all the compliments, do you know how many times a date has complimented me: ONCE.   

You've never ever had any woman compliment you because you never ever asked out the women who've shown real interest in you because they aren't up to your standard.  Instead, you choose the unattainable ones, who unsurprisingly are not particularly interested on the date.  

 

[basil67]

25 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

NO. I said

"I hope you are not telling these women you are useless at dating, you have no experience and everyone rejects you for better men..."
and you said "I do actually."
Why on earth would you do that?

I'm confused here too.  @ZA Dater's response does read like he tells women he has no experience.  And if he does say that upfront, his definition of "selling himself" (by which, I think he means 'putting his best foot forward') leaves a lot to be desired

[elaine567]

Maybe he is going for the pity angle.
"Oh poor you, come here, I will make it all better..." 
But he has chosen the wrong group to do that with.
He is pitching at the confident, the good looking, the desirable...
They don't want a guy no-one else wants, they don't want to play therapist, nursemaid and teacher.
They want a guy who is already the full package, not a fixer upper.

[Prudence V]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

I would also forget the term "ladies". I don't know how it is in South Africa or in your particular demographic

It’s the same as elsewhere. The only women who prefer that term are the conservative “kloosterkoek” types that ZAD disses (upthread). 

[Prudence V]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

When someone speaks to me for like 4 hours and then cannot even be bothered to greet for an entire day and a half then yes that is ghosted

Perhaps I’m an outlier here, but really? Isn’t that coming across as a bit needy? If I was chatting to someone, and enjoying it, then 4 hours would go by in a flash. But then I’d have to make up that time - all the chores, work, etc I would normally have done during those 4 hours would still need doing. I have a life - it’s seldom that I have four empty hours just sitting there yelling “fill me!” - and I imagine that the kind of woman who can engage in interesting conversation for 4 hours can do so precisely because she has a rich and full life, filling her with experiences, perspectives, opinions and interest. The person lying about desperate for someone else to fill her time is not going to be able to sustain an interesting conversation for anywhere near that kind of time. 
 

So expecting her to have nothing else on her agenda, or to push everything she has on her agenda to one side, to nurture a potential relationship with a guy who has, so far, invested just a few hours (as has she) is asking rather a lot, IMV. If a week or more had gone by and no response, fair enough, I’d say cut your losses and move on, but a day and a half? You barely know her and already you’re demanding that she assign you top priority in her life? I don’t know a single woman (who has a life; who has options; who is not so desperate for a relationship - *any* relationship that she would upend her entire life to chase down a guy who made eye contact in a supermarket queue) who would do that. If she happened to have a moment during a long commute or a boring meeting, perhaps she’d drop a quick emoji or a simple hi, but if she was busy with normal life, it would be something she’d get around to when she had the time to engage properly. 
 

Im guessing these women are wondering wtf? Dude seemed interested, we had a good chat, he dropped me an emoji or a greeting or two, and then ghosted me when I couldn’t respond immediately? 

[Alfano]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do actually. I could not care less, really I could not because when they meet me they are going to see that anyway so why bother trying to even hide it.

Damn dude, I actually cringed reading that.

Of course you care- you've been whining about your failures for the better part of a decade and here you are TELLING potential matches you're a complete failure and you justify saying it because "well there's no point in hiding it".

Craziness.

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

NO. I said

"I hope you are not telling these women you are useless at dating, you have no experience and everyone rejects you for better men..."
and you said "I do actually."
Why on earth would you do that?

Honestly, why not? I get asked when was my last relationship and my answer is never, I fail to see anything wrong with that. BUT I can see why people would because its far easier to make up any manner of BS than to be honest about something. 

BTW I had my 5 minutes of banter, introduced myself and just when I thought she may actually tell me her name, well that was that. Oh well. I got my 5 minutes of banter though.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm confused here too.  @ZA Dater's response does read like he tells women he has no experience.  And if he does say that upfront, his definition of "selling himself" (by which, I think he means 'putting his best foot forward') leaves a lot to be desired

Either experience matters or it does not, people have gone to great pains to tell me it does not so why should it matter whether have or whether I don't? You know its odd, people say put your best foot forward, I cannot ever recall any of the dates I have been on, by this I mean OLD dates ever putting a good foot forward or really making any real effort I at all, I always get the impression I am just a number and a choice so they invest almost nothing really because well there are 100 other guys to meet so in that sense its a competition in my opinion.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Maybe he is going for the pity angle.
"Oh poor you, come here, I will make it all better..." 
But he has chosen the wrong group to do that with.
He is pitching at the confident, the good looking, the desirable...
They don't want a guy no-one else wants, they don't want to play therapist, nursemaid and teacher.
They want a guy who is already the full package, not a fixer upper.

Everyone is a fixer upper in some way or another. No I am simply being forthright with them, if any of you on this forum met me in person it would take you about 5 minutes to realize I am completely inexperienced with dating, its very obvious, heck even guys who have tried to set me up with people see it. Its not like its not obvious. Instead of wasting my time with someone who ultimately will not accept that why not just put it out there at the start and if she accepts it great, if not, well so be it.

[SoulCat]

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Either experience matters or it does not, people have gone to great pains to tell me it does not so why should it matter whether have or whether I don't? 

I'm getting the distinct impression that you're being deliberately obtuse with regards to the whole 'experience' debate. But then again, by your own admission, you like to debate, so maybe it's just your way of keeping the discussion going.

Experience matters, it's handy, it's helpful and it increases one's confidence levels and therefore one's chances. However, most of us have to start somewhere without the benefit of experience. What most of us don't do, is wang on about it when it's not in our best interest to do so..

I mean, you (gen) do not go into a job interview and emphasise your lack of skill, your inexperience and your unsuitability for the position you are interviewing for. 
Yet this is exactly what you appear to do when you are talking to prospective or actual dates.
And with that, instead of 'putting your best foot forward', you are swiftly removing yourself from the scene as an attractive dating partner.

You use 'experience' as a convenient scapegoat. You refuse to learn from your past experiences to help you move onto new ones, and new ones after that. 
So that's left you stuck in the same loop for years now.
But that loop is your safe place, your comfort zone. In that loop, you get to blame others, blame society, blame superficiality, blame looks, blame everything under the sun bar your own unwillingness to actually get to grips with your demons, your fears and your crippling insecurities.

You suffering from cold because you're so afraid you might get burned.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Prudence V said:

Perhaps I’m an outlier here, but really? Isn’t that coming across as a bit needy? If I was chatting to someone, and enjoying it, then 4 hours would go by in a flash. But then I’d have to make up that time - all the chores, work, etc I would normally have done during those 4 hours would still need doing. I have a life - it’s seldom that I have four empty hours just sitting there yelling “fill me!” - and I imagine that the kind of woman who can engage in interesting conversation for 4 hours can do so precisely because she has a rich and full life, filling her with experiences, perspectives, opinions and interest. The person lying about desperate for someone else to fill her time is not going to be able to sustain an interesting conversation for anywhere near that kind of time. 
 

So expecting her to have nothing else on her agenda, or to push everything she has on her agenda to one side, to nurture a potential relationship with a guy who has, so far, invested just a few hours (as has she) is asking rather a lot, IMV. If a week or more had gone by and no response, fair enough, I’d say cut your losses and move on, but a day and a half? You barely know her and already you’re demanding that she assign you top priority in her life? I don’t know a single woman (who has a life; who has options; who is not so desperate for a relationship - *any* relationship that she would upend her entire life to chase down a guy who made eye contact in a supermarket queue) who would do that. If she happened to have a moment during a long commute or a boring meeting, perhaps she’d drop a quick emoji or a simple hi, but if she was busy with normal life, it would be something she’d get around to when she had the time to engage properly. 
 

Im guessing these women are wondering wtf? Dude seemed interested, we had a good chat, he dropped me an emoji or a greeting or two, and then ghosted me when I couldn’t respond immediately? 

Fair point. You always raise interesting and balanced points of view.

A simply "morning hope you have a nice day" is enough, to simply not respond at all us just ghosting. It does not take hours to send a simple msg.  See I think the thing I look at, there will be endless Tinder matches for many so its easy to ignore one in favor of another more lets say attractive one, its simply the nature of this whole "match and throw away, transaction" dating world in my view. 

I also find it fascinating that when I have been on dates, people seemingly can never actually tell me much about their lives and what actually keeps them busy, instead its small talk which I guess is ok but its like having bread for main course and an a starter, it becomes dull, to me at least.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, SoulCat said:

I'm getting the distinct impression that you're being deliberately obtuse with regards to the whole 'experience' debate. But then again, by your own admission, you like to debate, so maybe it's just your way of keeping the discussion going.

Experience matters, it's handy, it's helpful and it increases one's confidence levels and therefore one's chances. However, most of us have to start somewhere without the benefit of experience. What most of us don't do, is wang on about it when it's not in our best interest to do so..

I mean, you (gen) do not go into a job interview and emphasise your lack of skill, your inexperience and your unsuitability for the position you are interviewing for. 
Yet this is exactly what you appear to do when you are talking to prospective or actual dates.
And with that, instead of 'putting your best foot forward', you are swiftly removing yourself from the scene as an attractive dating partner.

You use 'experience' as a convenient scapegoat. You refuse to learn from your past experiences to help you move onto new ones, and new ones after that. 
So that's left you stuck in the same loop for years now.
But that loop is your safe place, your comfort zone. In that loop, you get to blame others, blame society, blame superficiality, blame looks, blame everything under the sun bar your own unwillingness to actually get to grips with your demons, your fears and your crippling insecurities.

You suffering from cold because you're so afraid you might get burned.

Yet...please tell me why none of these women I meet on dates even remotely try to impress me in an "interview" type scenario? I'd love and answer to what I think is a really simple question, I am expected to bend over backward to impress them yet they do next to nothing to impress me!

I am not being obtuse, someone asked me how long my last relationship was and I told them I have never had one, nothing obtuse about that at all. What I do is emphasize the person I am the beliefs and interests I  do have but this never really good enough or what they are actually looking for.

We all know nobody has to ever give reasons for ghosting or rejection.  The more I invest the poorer the outcome is so yeah I get the guys who go out there to just pick up whoever they find attractive, have a night of fun and move on the next day, I detest that more because morally I could not do it but perhaps in part because I wish I could detach myself to that extent.

I suspect the only people I am actually attractive to are people who have next to zero options.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Alfano said:

Damn dude, I actually cringed reading that.

Of course you care- you've been whining about your failures for the better part of a decade and here you are TELLING potential matches you're a complete failure and you justify saying it because "well there's no point in hiding it".

Craziness.

 

They see it anyway. May as well just tell them at the start, save myself the time chatting and getting my hopes up to only meet them in person and get rejected because well they see this guy is inexperienced. Pretty logical to me.

Maybe the true solution is to have something they actually want and work the whole situation from that point of quid pro quo type of transactional arrangement, have come across this before but unsurprisingly I was too stupid to actually see it for what it is or what was actually being offered. She got what she wanted from me and when she did I never heard from her again.

[elaine567]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yet...please tell me why none of these women I meet on dates even remotely try to impress me in an "interview" type scenario? I'd love and answer to what I think is a really simple question, I am expected to bend over backward to impress them yet they do next to nothing to impress me!

Basil already answered that question.
You reject the women who are truly interested in you, in favour of those who are merely using you to make up the numbers. 
You are thus the "maybe" that turns into a hard "no" when you fail to impress. 

[SoulCat]

33 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yet...please tell me why none of these women I meet on dates even remotely try to impress me in an "interview" type scenario? I'd love and answer to what I think is a really simple question, I am expected to bend over backward to impress them yet they do next to nothing to impress me!

 

To me, a job interview is different. If I want that job, then yes, I will try to make myself stand out, but only to a certain, sustainable extent. 
I'm not going to proclaim to be proficient in say, Urdu, because I'm going to be found out really quickly that I am not.
But I will point out that I have experience with A, B and C. And that I'm pretty good at D, too. 

When I go on a date, I do not expect my date to 'impress' me. I find that quite a juvenile notion. 
On a date, I go and meet someone to see if we click, if we have things in common, if our viewpoints are similar, if I find them physically and intellectually attractive. 
Presumably, they meet me to see if they feel that way about me.
If I get the feeling they are putting on some act in order to impress me, I lose interest pretty much instantly. It's fake and it's lame. And pretty immature.

I don't quite understand what you want the women you meet for a date to do to 'impress' you.
Cartwheels? Recite the Magna Carta? Sweep you off your feet with their knowledge of cross stitching?

If you just want them to show an interest in you, then BE interesting. 
BE engaging, BE reciprocal, BE fun to be around. 
Lighten up!
You come across -here, at least- as dour, pretentious, judgemental, inflexible and stuck-up.
Not many women would find those attributes to be very attractive, no matter how much you insist that you are a 'nice, loyal, helpful guy'.

Stop insisting on wanting to discuss 'world affairs' and politics in the initial stages, those topics will usually come up naturally later, but can kill a date stone dead.
Stop insisting these women should be well travelled when you aren't. Stop insisting they are some type of model when you can't match up in the looks department.

I am not telling you anything new here, many other good people have taken the time over the years to advise you, and share the benefits of their experiences.

The reason you are still here, regurgitating the same issues over and over again is because you are not willing to change anything about you or your approach.
You prefer to lay the blame squarely at every other possible door.
That's your prerogative. But it comes with consequences.   
 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, SoulCat said:

To me, a job interview is different. If I want that job, then yes, I will try to make myself stand out, but only to a certain, sustainable extent. 
I'm not going to proclaim to be proficient in say, Urdu, because I'm going to be found out really quickly that I am not.
But I will point out that I have experience with A, B and C. And that I'm pretty good at D, too. 

When I go on a date, I do not expect my date to 'impress' me. I find that quite a juvenile notion. 
On a date, I go and meet someone to see if we click, if we have things in common, if our viewpoints are similar, if I find them physically and intellectually attractive. 
Presumably, they meet me to see if they feel that way about me.
If I get the feeling they are putting on some act in order to impress me, I lose interest pretty much instantly. It's fake and it's lame. And pretty immature.

I don't quite understand what you want the women you meet for a date to do to 'impress' you.
Cartwheels? Recite the Magna Carta? Sweep you off your feet with their knowledge of cross stitching?

If you just want them to show an interest in you, then BE interesting. 
BE engaging, BE reciprocal, BE fun to be around. 
Lighten up!
You come across -here, at least- as dour, pretentious, judgemental, inflexible and stuck-up.
Not many women would find those attributes to be very attractive, no matter how much you insist that you are a 'nice, loyal, helpful guy'.

Stop insisting on wanting to discuss 'world affairs' and politics in the initial stages, those topics will usually come up naturally later, but can kill a date stone dead.
Stop insisting these women should be well travelled when you aren't. Stop insisting they are some type of model when you can't match up in the looks department.

I am not telling you anything new here, many other good people have taken the time over the years to advise you, and share the benefits of their experiences.

The reason you are still here, regurgitating the same issues over and over again is because you are not willing to change anything about you or your approach.
You prefer to lay the blame squarely at every other possible door.
That's your prerogative. But it comes with consequences.   
 

With respect let me try and understand this

1: I must try impress them but they can sit back and do nothing and make no effort whatsoever to give me a reason to find them attractive?

2: How does me simply stating up front when asked about my relationship experience that I have none, how does that differ from lying about it and being found out later on?

3: Irrespective what face I put on any given day the results are never much different, heck most of the time I get ghosted before I even meet these people which adds further support to my assertion that all OLD is a different version of on line shopping. You are right I am inflexible, there is absolutely no motivation to bend over backwards for people I have no interest in. Then again few women have any traits I find attractive and those that do, well I join a line which stretches to Cairo.

4: I like world affairs so yes I will discuss it, if the person cannot then I am automatically not interested in her irrespective what she looks like. The same applied to politics. I see no reason why these cannot be discussed on dates or am I supposed to discuss the latest jacket for sale at ABC or perhaps the weather or perhaps where they went to school or perhaps what they studied or perhaps their family or MAYBE something that are PASSIONATE about....perish the thought the person sitting in front of me needs to show some enthusiasm for something!!

5: If they are not physically attractive the deal is dead, there simply is no negotiating to be done here, the fact I find slim people attractive is irrelevant a lack of physical attraction is a fundamental lack of compatibility.

It seems to me the answer to everything is: "well you know you want this you cant have this so you need to be happy with that", sorry that does not work for me and never will, fundamentally I do not agree with that at all. 

Blame, I am not blaming anyone, I chose to not fit in with everyone, I chose to walk the road less taken, I met the people I did many of them amazing and they set the benchmark. I chose not to partake in HS when some fairly attractive people found me attractive. I pay the price every single day in the form of no experience, which ironically will kill any deal stone dead even if I did eventually find mutual attraction.

Fun to be around....maybe one day I'll actually know what that actually means.....

Engaging, pointless when the other person will not engage, been on enough dates where I have to do all the engaging. 

 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Basil already answered that question.
You reject the women who are truly interested in you, in favour of those who are merely using you to make up the numbers. 
You are thus the "maybe" that turns into a hard "no" when you fail to impress. 

I suppose these people are so called "aspirational daters" who themselves have very few options.......humor me.

Oh I need to impress...odd then that few of them actually go to any real effort to impress me. Forgot this is a one way street with a dead end at the one end.

[mark clemson]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I agree with you, apart from the fact I have NEVER EVER had ANY lady actually arrive and make an effort with me, its one way traffic on my part, must carry the entire conversation and pass all the compliments, do you know how many times a date has complimented me: ONCE.

Fair enough + from what I read here there is a certain % of "time wasters" on OLD that look for a "validation hit" and then sort of leave you hanging.

In terms of compliments, you have to remember that, for an attractive young woman, paying attention to you at all sort of IS the compliment. The horny men of the world, let's not kid ourselves, tend to be beating a path to her door, and attractive women tend to not waste much time with guys they don't see as attractive. So if you've made it past the "firewall" keeping out "nuisance men" that's actually a good start.

Probably you are decent looking and your profile is ok if that's the case. But you also should realize that some of the primary sexual "indicators" for women tend to be psychological. Confidence, an air of self-assurance/social dominance. Every woman's ultimately different, but many tend to respond to that sort of thing. So if your text conversations give off that sort of vibe, you MIGHT have a bit more luck, dunno.

I almost feel like if you go with what you have, but then keep everything a bit vague and mysterious in conversations (both chat and RL) but allude a bit to wealth (actually true in your case IIRC) and "worldy experience" and, importantly, avoid any negativity whatsoever, you just might get laid almost out of curiosity with the right girl. Perhaps that's "putting on act" and something you're not willing to do, dunno, but what you are doing seems to lead mostly to frustration. And you did title this thread "Catfish". Consider trying something new, perhaps, dunno?

Edited September 2, 2021 by mark clemson

[basil67]

 

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Everyone is a fixer upper in some way or another. No I am simply being forthright with them, if any of you on this forum met me in person it would take you about 5 minutes to realize I am completely inexperienced with dating, its very obvious, heck even guys who have tried to set me up with people see it. Its not like its not obvious. Instead of wasting my time with someone who ultimately will not accept that why not just put it out there at the start and if she accepts it great, if not, well so be it.

There's a difference between being forthright and leading with fails.   A guy dating me would quickly work out that I fart like a trooper and love wearing my flannel PJs if I'm not going out.  But I'm not telling them this before I even meet them!  

 

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Fair enough + from what I read here there is a certain % of "time wasters" on OLD that look for a "validation hit" and then sort of leave you hanging.

In terms of compliments, you have to remember that, for an attractive young woman, paying attention to you at all sort of IS the compliment. The horny men of the world, let's not kid ourselves, tend to be beating a path to her door, and attractive women tend to not waste much time with guys they don't see as attractive. So if you've made it past the "firewall" keeping out "nuisance men" that's actually a good start.

Probably you are decent looking and your profile is ok if that's the case. But you also should realize that some of the primary sexual "indicators" for women tend to be psychological. Confidence, an air of self-assurance/social dominance. Every woman's ultimately different, but many tend to respond to that sort of thing. So if your text conversations give off that sort of vibe, you MIGHT have a bit more luck, dunno.

I almost feel like if you go with what you have, but then keep everything a bit vague and mysterious in conversations (both chat and RL) but allude a bit to wealth (actually true in your case IIRC) and "worldy experience" and, importantly, avoid any negativity whatsoever, you just might get laid almost out of curiosity with the right girl. Perhaps that's "putting on act" and something you're not willing to do, dunno, but what you are doing seems to lead mostly to frustration. And you did title this thread "Catfish". Consider trying something new, perhaps, dunno?

Sure, I do some of that but I constantly and justifiably get the feeling I am being cross shopped all the time so its about doing one heck of a selling job but even when I do that I get ghosted. The thing that always struck me is when someone is genuinely interested that show that interest and when I did this catfish experiment people were genuinely interested, now, well its me who has to sell and sell and sell some more to try get that same sort of interest and well it never actually arrives, miss attractive will talk to me for a few hours and I will never hear from her again, whereas miss catfish would actually greet me without me having to initiate conversation, there is a drastic difference there. 

I have met up with perhaps five of six of the "I am curious enough" type but every single time they just tick none of my boxes and crucially are never ever attractive at all so part of me just wrongly used to assign this interest with my own worth in terms of dating. The fundamental problem is I have never really got the level of interest I got when I did the catfish experiment, the entire experience is completely different, they actually put in effort to try and make themselves attractive to me, whereas now I have to put ALL of the effort in.

For me the entire thing is just annoying, it would seem irrespective what I do it is never ever good enough.

[elaine567]

14 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I need to impress...odd then that few of them actually go to any real effort to impress me. Forgot this is a one way street with a dead end at the one end.

Because they feel no need to impress a guy who they likely only see as a "maybe"... With a hard sell of charm, fun, joie de vivre and sexiness it can sometimes be turned around but not always.
Interested women act interested, that is how it usually works... you noticed that in your catfish experiment.
If they are not trying to engage with you or impress you, then they are not interested.

 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

For me the entire thing is just annoying, it would seem irrespective what I do it is never ever good enough.

It would be good enough if you stopped chasing unicorns and decided to try to date women who ARE actually interested in you.

[ZA Dater]

59 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

It would be good enough if you stopped chasing unicorns and decided to try to date women who ARE actually interested in you.

That is more annoying still. I have NO interest in those women, absolutely NONE. Less than ZERO. 

 

[elaine567]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

That is more annoying still. I have NO interest in those women, absolutely NONE. Less than ZERO. 

Well I am afraid that is where you are at.
These attractive women feel the same way about you, as you feel about the women who ARE attracted to you. 
"NO interest... absolutely NONE, less than ZERO."
That is why they show you no interest and do not try to impress you on the date.
They couldn't care less if you like them or not as they plan to be out of there asap.

Then to compound it all you shoot yourself in the foot with your "Oh poor me, virgin tales..."
So even if there was some interest then it will disappear rapidly upon learning of your sorry tales of woe...
You would need to look like a film star in order to pull that one off.

Moaning about your lack of experience is nonsense and no woman will put up with that, you are 37 NOT 17.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Because they feel no need to impress a guy who they likely only see as a "maybe"... With a hard sell of charm, fun, joie de vivre and sexiness it can sometimes be turned around but not always.
Interested women act interested, that is how it usually works... you noticed that in your catfish experiment.
If they are not trying to engage with you or impress you, then they are not interested.

 

I would change not always to frankly almost never. 

Based on that experiment I can honestly say few have ever been interested in me, its ALWAYS me having to sell, sell, sell and sell some more and absolutely zero return on this selling. Good example of this, when one introduced oneself by name usually the counter party introduces themselves, not so with this waitress yesterday which I thought was odd but honestly I am not surprised. Friend goes to the same place and well, he gets completely different treatment.

I cant be bothered to even try sell and impress anymore because for what, maybe I need to actually see how much interest they show and just match that level of interest.