Catfish

July 16, 2021

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

This has been repeated so many times. He doesn’t get it. Or, more likely, he’s so afraid of intimacy / rejection that he’s constructed a world where he never has to be vulnerable. The result is which means he never feels a real connection.

He already regrets most of his past choices. That seems like the life he wants to live indefinitely. A life of regret. What a waste.

Well I cant very well go back and do those things differently can I? What I am learning as the years go by is I just become ever more unattractive and ever more different to everyone else who is married, has kids or at the very least has dated.

People are not accepting in general of anything that is different, I know this because when I was going on dates with whoever would match with me I quickly learnt that there is some missing code I do now know, going out there and being me simply never worked out ever, I was forced to go out and be someone I was not and then it worked better but also worse because fundamentally I was not that person.

Its about the narrative one spins, I am not so stupid to not realize that, the guy with tons of charm and flirting ability will ALWAYS do better than me because he can CONNECT better than I can. Which is why for the last few years the way I try and connect is to simply be the useful guy. I have been on dates where I already get the sense early on they are thinking "this guy is just odd" because I in all honesty never go on dates with any sort of plan, rather to see what the person is like and whether I enjoy spending time with them, they however seem to expect something else.

July 16, 2021

10 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Right, and to follow the analogy...you know that any reasonable person is going to say, "I know what my goals are. I know I want to make money, I want to be comfortable in my environment, I want to be self-supporting, AND I know that I have never had a job before, so I'm going to go with this reasonable offer and see how I really feel once I'm working. Maybe I'll love it! But if this isn't the job for me, okay. Since this is my very first job, odds are, it won't be my last. So what? That's what being a young businessperson is all about. Exploring what I can do, finding out what I can give, bettering myself, exploring what I really want, finding out what the world has to offer me, and making friendships along the way. I have never had a job before so I don't even know yet whether what I 'think' I want, is what I really do want to live with for the rest of my working life. So I guess I'll get started now with what seems like a reasonable option, then see where it goes. This is kind of cool and it's pretty exciting."

Et voilà.

Any reasonable person who isn't ridiculously entitled - OR who isn't avoiding working altogether and looking for excuses not to do it (ahem) - will not say:

"Okay, well, I have zero experience and I'm not all that personable and I don't feel like working on that either, and I have no skills yet, so here's what I'll do. I'll wait for Warren Buffett to call saying he wants an apprentice and I'm his choice, and then I'll be a billionaire. If that doesn't happen, to hell with it. Why should I settle?"

I wish dating rewarded determination like work sometimes does, I wish dating you could see yourself improving like I can in the work I do, I wish dating you could sometimes get the wins I get when it comes to work.

The two are not even remotely related in view and the analogy is wrong in my view unless what you are saying you one needs to kiss a few frogs before kissing a princess? I am being sarcastic do please do not take that comment too seriously!

Fact of the matter is I have gone from being very shy to less shy, from very unassured to fairly assured, I did he difficult things but to what end? The choices I have on the dating scene are no better than they were, new clothes and styles have not changed that, I still get looked at like an alien when I do not partake in drinking so while a lot has changed the fundamentals have not.

One thing you are right about, I do look for where I might gain the largest amount of "feel good" and that is with the transactional type friendships.

July 16, 2021

12 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

"People comment." "...further questions." I don't believe you want a RL. You want to conform to some social standard that will make people think you're like them, and then they'll leave you alone.

And that more than explains the way you jump through hoops to make sure nothing ever works out.

How is any of this fulfilling?

How do I jump through hoops?

Guess what sometimes it is nice to conform, try put yourself in my shoes and imagine a life where you never conform, going away for a weekend with a group and you are the only single person there. Fortunately for me I have become comfortable enough with this group to not let it bother me but it sometimes does and more so when I have contrived on occasion to bring someone with me, its much nicer to share things with people, I like sharing things.

It is nice to just have someone to talk to about life, hear about their life, help where one can, so much of my life is spent alone and it always has been that way. It sounds bad but when you have no attention for so long and you can spend some time with someone who sort of gets you, can open up to that person and actually drop the armor it is rather nice.

I say this because I have had dates with people I really liked, very few but they happened. I dropped the armor, put everything on the table, really opened up and well got rejected anyway so I asked myself why I bothered to do that, I then saw what players do and realized that they had a lot more success without bearing their soul and opening up.

July 16, 2021

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I wish dating rewarded determination like work sometimes does.

It does.
Determined guys willing to learn and put the work in will get the girl.

You give up.
I can't flirt, I don't do banter, I can't escalate. I can't even kiss... I won't ever compromise or settle...
I can't, don't, won't.
The story of your dating life.

July 16, 2021

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

It does.
Determined guys willing to learn and put the work in will get the girl.

You give up.
I can't flirt, I don't do banter, I can't escalate. I can't even kiss... I won't ever compromise or settle...
I can't, don't, won't.
The story of your dating life.

Well if I had the ability to attract people I actually find attractive maybe I'd try more.

Yeah as I have been told many times "I do not want to teach guys". And why should they when there are tons of experienced attractive guys.

Who would you pick? Someone who was clueless or someone who had dating experience?

July 16, 2021

None of this is any woman's fault, it is not their problem you are "clueless and inexperienced", the problem is solely yours.
YOU need to take responsibility for your own issues. NOONE is duty bound to fix you.
You have been protesting cluelessness for years now.
How can that possibly be?
At 37 you can't still be protesting cluelessness and lack of experience and still hope to maintain some credibility,
At 17 it could be seen as somewhat cute, at 37 it is not.

July 16, 2021

31 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

None of this is any woman's fault, it is not their problem you are "clueless and inexperienced", the problem is solely yours.
YOU need to take responsibility for your own issues. NOONE is duty bound to fix you.
You have been protesting cluelessness for years now.
How can that possibly be?
At 37 you can't still be protesting cluelessness and lack of experience and still hope to maintain some credibility,
At 17 it could be seen as somewhat cute, at 37 it is not.

Exactly my point. Irrespective what I do the fundamental remains the same.

July 16, 2021

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Exactly my point. Irrespective what I do the fundamental remains the same.

BUT you don't DO anything. You hold out for the impossible unicorn or you try to make friends out of that impossible unicorn...
Neither of which is educational or conducive to gaining experience.

July 16, 2021

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

BUT you don't DO anything. You hold out for the impossible unicorn or you try to make friends out of that impossible unicorn...
Neither of which is educational or conducive to gaining experience.

Nor is dating people I do not find attractive.

July 16, 2021

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Cool so its best to go and pretend to be interested in someone, fake that interest, use them to get whatever experience and move on. Sounds lovely.

The solution is not for me to "pretend" to want coached by the local pro or a friend of a friend, the solution is for me to realise the ridiculousness of my thinking and just learn to play tennis. instead of holding out for a world renowned coach...

The ridiculousness of your stance over this, is apparent to everyone apart from you.

July 16, 2021

5 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The solution is not for me to "pretend" to want coached by the local pro or a friend of a friend, the solution is for me to realise the ridiculousness of my thinking and just learn to play tennis. instead of holding out for a world renowned coach...

The ridiculousness of your stance over this, is apparent to everyone apart from you.

So in other words use people to acquire experience, spin a whole of BS, somehow find them attractive and then just throw them away like garbage afterwards?

Is that your suggestion?

July 16, 2021

46 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So in other words use people to acquire experience, spin a whole of BS, somehow find them attractive and then just throw them away like garbage afterwards?

Is that your suggestion?

NO. that is your suggestion...
You need to change you whole mindset as regards who you find attractive.
The people you find attractive are NEVER going to be available to you.
Until you realise how ridiculous your present mindset is, you will never find anyone.

July 16, 2021

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I cant very well go back and do those things differently can I?

No, but you can change the things you’re doing now. Or do you want your whole life to be one of regrets?

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What I am learning as the years go by is I just become ever more unattractive and ever more different to everyone else who is married, has kids or at the very least has dated.

According to you, this is not something new you’re learning. You’ve always felt this way. This is just confirmation bias. What you’re describing is shame. The sense that you’re not good enough to connect with people. Therapy can help, if you’re willing to help yourself.

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

…the guy with tons of charm and flirting ability will ALWAYS do better than me because he can CONNECT better than I can. Which is why for the last few years the way I try and connect is to simply be the useful guy.

You do realize that there are women that are turned off by flirty, charming “Chads” right? The problem is you’re not interested in those women. And being the “useful guy” isn’t working so you can stop doing that. Tinder also isn’t working, you can stop that as well. Try new things.

July 16, 2021

56 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So in other words use people to acquire experience, spin a whole of BS, somehow find them attractive and then just throw them away like garbage afterwards?

Is that your suggestion?

You do realize many people date casually right? Have friends with benefits etc. As long as it’s mutual, nobody is using anybody. Just make it clear that you’re not looking for anything serious.

July 16, 2021

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well if I had the ability to attract people I actually find attractive maybe I'd try more.

Yeah as I have been told many times "I do not want to teach guys". And why should they when there are tons of experienced attractive guys.

Who would you pick? Someone who was clueless or someone who had dating experience?

Right!
Why should a grown woman teach a 37 year old guy to date?
Will you date an obese woman and work out with her, help her fix her nutrition for the payoff in a year or two? My guess is no because your disdain for them is clear. You however want to get offended when people show disdain for your lacking attributes. At least a fat woman can lose weight.

You’re not offering what someone wants so pack up your products and go home.

Nobody told you to date unattractive women. Nobody said date fat women.
Also you weren’t “dating” A or K, so what amazing dating experience did you have?

Intelligent people don’t argue in such an unintelligent manner.

JFC

July 16, 2021

38 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

NO. that is your suggestion...
You need to change you whole mindset as regards who you find attractive.
The people you find attractive are NEVER going to be available to you.
Until you realise how ridiculous your present mindset is, you will never find anyone.

That is fine then, much like I am never going to enjoy a McDonalds burger or eat one the people attracted to me on OLD will have zero appeal too.

Win win really.

July 16, 2021

33 minutes ago, jspice said:

Right!
Why should a grown woman teach a 37 year old guy to date?
Will you date an obese woman and work out with her, help her fix her nutrition for the payoff in a year or two? My guess is no because your disdain for them is clear. You however want to get offended when people show disdain for your lacking attributes. At least a fat woman can lose weight.

You’re not offering what someone wants so pack up your products and go home.

Nobody told you to date unattractive women. Nobody said date fat women.
Also you weren’t “dating” A or K, so what amazing dating experience did you have?

Intelligent people don’t argue in such an unintelligent manner.

JFC

Like that ever works in reality....frankly I am entitled as are you to find whoever I want attractive and the reverse is also true.

I got better social interaction out of A and K than I have ever got from anyone I actually went on a date with, at least it was possible to have a good conversation with them instead of sitting there trying to extract conversation out of someone or if by some miracle this happens have them ask me nothing about myself, for the record I do not care what she looks like, if she asks me nothing about myself I am immediately not interested.

K and A actually ask me about me, it actually possible to have a conversation and they actually show some interest in me, this is far preferable to sitting there doing all the interacting and getting nothing back.

July 16, 2021

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

..they actually show some interest in me, this is far preferable to sitting there doing all the interacting and getting nothing back.

OK, but Jspice's point was not that they were not friendly or unable to converse or be good company,, her point was that A and K were NOT dates, so cannot be lumped in with "dating experience".

July 16, 2021

47 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

No, but you can change the things you’re doing now. Or do you want your whole life to be one of regrets?

According to you, this is not something new you’re learning. You’ve always felt this way. This is just confirmation bias. What you’re describing is shame. The sense that you’re not good enough to connect with people. Therapy can help, if you’re willing to help yourself.

You do realize that there are women that are turned off by flirty, charming “Chads” right? The problem is you’re not interested in those women. And being the “useful guy” isn’t working so you can stop doing that. Tinder also isn’t working, you can stop that as well. Try new things.

The one truth is yes one can change what one does at any given point but tell me do you change for change sake or change for a set purpose?

I am good enough to connect with people, I know that there are ways of interaction I am very good at, many topics I enjoy chatting and engaging on and its always nice to meet people who can engage on a wide range of topics BUT it get it dating does not work engaging on topics, she wants to feel wanted, she wants to feel he is interested, she wants to feel charmed and I do TRY to do these things IF I am actually interested in the person and I get some sort of interaction back but mostly I do not.

You seem to think I have a static way of looking at things, I do not. A pushed my way out of my comfort zone and I did OK at that, I was happy with what I said and how I said it, I was happy with the way I handled the whole situation and while it did not work I was happy that I did not present awkwardly, I was not shy, I was able to engage people in large groups, I tried to be more relaxed, I tried to be more humorous and light. I put in the effort because I saw what I thought was a good idea. The degree of effort I put it is proportionate to how much I want the end result.

The problem really is there are very people who interest me because almost always there are inherent issues and yes one of them is my refusal to go out with people who do not wow me in some way. Just speaking nicely can be wow so I am not asking for the earth, just something that really makes that person stand out. A, it was not the face she was a model, it was her warm personality I noted first and yes a pretty face helps.

At the end of the day I believe get what they deserve and I clearly deserve nothing. I can sit and work for hours and get better at something through sheer grit, I can on 100 dates and still get a no better result.

To also clarify, I only ever wish people the best, if someone really likes someone, I really encourage them to go for it, I give a lot to people like that, often get phoned by people who want to vent, want an independent honest opinion. Life is too short not to wish those around us the best and motivate them to succeed. If I am honest after A I have rather run out of motivation to date, there are the usual "send me money and I will go on a date with you", he usual people I suspect nobody who has contributed to this thread would go out with.

I live with regrets, we all do.

July 16, 2021

4 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

OK, but Jspice's point was not that they were not friendly or unable to converse or be good company,, her point was that A and K were NOT dates, so cannot be lumped in with "dating experience".

Does not take away that it was a MUCH better experience than any date, so tell why is that if dating is supposed to be better, it just has NEVER been better for me. From people standing me up, some arriving drunk, other arriving with friends who want drinks bought for them, one was a prostitute (ironically one of the better dates overall because guess what she asked about me), another was a drug addict who arrived high, another arrived and disappeared mid way though, another arrived had lunch and then told me "Oh I could see before we walked in I was not interested in you", another "you need to find people as inexperienced as you", another who simply used me for business advice and then vanished, another who wanted to come over and was so excited to meet, took her for dinner and nothing else happened despite or because of my disaster of an idea to try kiss her. Another I sat and chatted for hours, again same story not interested.

You try and find ANY positive dating experiences, I am sitting here and I cannot think of ONE!! I kept asking myself what on earth this actually offers me and I still do now know.

With these people all it was is consumer dating, swipe and reject, swipe and reject!

July 16, 2021

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The one truth is yes one can change what one does at any given point but tell me do you change for change sake or change for a set purpose?

I am good enough to connect with people, I know that there are ways of interaction I am very good at, many topics I enjoy chatting and engaging on and its always nice to meet people who can engage on a wide range of topics BUT it get it dating does not work engaging on topics, she wants to feel wanted, she wants to feel he is interested, she wants to feel charmed and I do TRY to do these things IF I am actually interested in the person and I get some sort of interaction back but mostly I do not.

You seem to think I have a static way of looking at things, I do not. A pushed my way out of my comfort zone and I did OK at that, I was happy with what I said and how I said it, I was happy with the way I handled the whole situation and while it did not work I was happy that I did not present awkwardly, I was not shy, I was able to engage people in large groups, I tried to be more relaxed, I tried to be more humorous and light. I put in the effort because I saw what I thought was a good idea. The degree of effort I put it is proportionate to how much I want the end result.

The problem really is there are very people who interest me because almost always there are inherent issues and yes one of them is my refusal to go out with people who do not wow me in some way. Just speaking nicely can be wow so I am not asking for the earth, just something that really makes that person stand out. A, it was not the face she was a model, it was her warm personality I noted first and yes a pretty face helps.

At the end of the day I believe get what they deserve and I clearly deserve nothing. I can sit and work for hours and get better at something through sheer grit, I can on 100 dates and still get a no better result.

To also clarify, I only ever wish people the best, if someone really likes someone, I really encourage them to go for it, I give a lot to people like that, often get phoned by people who want to vent, want an independent honest opinion. Life is too short not to wish those around us the best and motivate them to succeed. If I am honest after A I have rather run out of motivation to date, there are the usual "send me money and I will go on a date with you", he usual people I suspect nobody who has contributed to this thread would go out with.

I live with regrets, we all do.

Until you decide to stop making excuses and address the reasons you feel compelled to make them., nothing will change. Period.

July 16, 2021

I don't know if I'm crossing a line here. I really hope not because I don't want to get in trouble.

And I don't want to offend ZADater...then again, this shouldn't be an offensive subject. We should all be grownups and able to talk about this.

Well, here goes. ZADater, if there IS an issue with wanting to be attracted to women but not generally being attracted to the gender (sex? I can't remember the proper lingo in this regard, sorry), then it makes sense that you can only seem to feel anything at all for the cream of the crop, the most sterotypically "10" women out there. You may be believing deep down that the "perfect woman" will somehow change your preferences. The "perfect woman" will somehow make you...well, just like you think everyone else is.

This isn't true (don't ask me how I know this, please, very painful...and no, it wasn't me with the confusion). And I think deep down you know that, which is why you seem to only choose to have these "relaxed and open" etc. conversations with people whom you sense can never have a real relationship with you. That makes it safe.

Trying to find the "perfect person" to change something about you only hurts anyone who gets close to you; that woman will inevitably feel she's not "enough" but never know why. And you'll be frustrated that somehow, it didn't work. And you may even resent her and be cruel to her, because illogical though it sounds, you'll think: "You were supposed to make 'me' what I wanted to be. You failed." It happens. It's a long, complex, psychological thing that I don't want to get into here. *Which again is why therapy is really needed here, IMO*...but I'll leave that part alone at just that one sentence.

I am NOT saying that I've been thinking you may just not be attracted to women. I actually was wondering if you were either asexual, or had some severe trauma. Those were my two theories but they were "just a feeling," so I couldn't really take much stock in them. Still can't. The bottom line is that you seem to be waiting for the perfect woman to somehow be "enough" that she will overcome EVERYTHING. All of it. 20+ years of avoiding relationships (it's obvious). Your insecurities. Your inexperience. Your not being "able to be" attracted to normal, healthy women. Your inability to see the value in just friendships. Your inability or difficulty with having casual conversation on a variety of non-sterotyped/non-obsessive subjects. You're waiting for some mythical "ideal woman" to change you and your insides. It will never happen. And you'll live and die miserable and feeling like a failure somehow, when all this time, you could have simply been honest with yourself and WHATEVER this is (I am NOT saying it's definitively homosexuality).

It's time to face up to things, ZADater. It's time to stop these dozens-of-pages-long threads of runaround, and look at yourself...and finally be honest.

If you don't stop this madness you'll hurt others, you'll hurt yourself, and you'll never accept yourself...much less anyone else accepting you.

It's time to be brave. Braver than you've ever been. Stop this craziness and this running away, and make changes so you can be happy. (And please. No "I'm generally happy, etc," when these on-and-on-and-on threads prove otherwise.)

Edited July 16, 2021 by CaliforniaGirl

July 16, 2021

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The one truth is yes one can change what one does at any given point but tell me do you change for change sake or change for a set purpose?

If you have a goal, and what you’re doing hasn’t worked, you change what you’re doing. You refuse to change what you’re doing. You’ve had dozens of suggestions all of which you’ve dismissed.

Here’s a random suggestion. Join a cycling club. You like cycling. You’ll meet people that have a similar interest. Get out of your bubble. See that people exist with similar interests as yours. Not for the purpose of finding romance, but to expand your social circle to people that might have more in common with you. This could end up in you not feeling like an outsider. Perhaps you’ll find your people. Maybe there will be other non-drinkers. Who knows. But at the very worst you’ll be cycling, something you already enjoy. Pretty much no cost and only benefits. Seems like a no brainer.

July 16, 2021

41 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I actually was wondering if you were either asexual, or had some severe trauma.

@ZA Dater had very briefly touched on his traumatic childhood. He had a cold mother, and has never mentioned his father. But has said a number of times he’s been through things he wouldn’t wish on his worst enemy. So severe trauma is not out of the question. I believe he has a deep fear of intimacy and rejection and avoids sexual situations due to a fear of being inadequate and ridiculed. He has paid for dates with women before, but because he’s ultimately looking be loved these arrangements don’t work. I don’t think he would do that if he was asexual.

July 16, 2021

53 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

He has paid for dates with women before, but because he’s ultimately looking be loved these arrangements don’t work. I don’t think he would do that if he was asexual.

AFAIK he doesn't have sex with these "paid" women, so asexuality is not completely off the table.

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