Dinner counter-invite/expectations/etiquette

[czanclus]

Hello. I fancy myself more socially discerning than to have to crowdsource on this, but it's been years coming on a decade since such interchanges have been part of my life...

I read this site often, just rarely comment, and even less rarely post my own topics. I value the feedback (on other topics) from several users whom I recognize as regulars. Anyway, the situation...

If you invite someone to claim lunch on you (your own presence optional, though not specified in those words), and they say 'how about dinner and drinks instead', 1) what are the expectations from the person counter-offering as far as whether it's a date, and 2) who pays for this (more pertinently, in how bad of a taste is it to insist on the original inviter still paying)...

The original invite was a gesture of gratitude for something in the professional realm. That same gesture would have been offered to any person of any gender and any relationship status in return for a favor the invitee offered to do and did.

The invitee is probably married, and was certainly in what looked like a great happy marriage a decade ago.

Thanks for helping with the perspective on this.

[Versacehottie]

Ohhh sticky... if I am understanding the situation correctly...on your end it's purely business and some sort of business thank you gesture.  On their end, trying to switch it to a dinner/drinks thing gives you the vibe that she (or he) is interested in you, right? And you don't feel that way.  So here's my advice:

*If I correct that you don't feel anything romantic toward the person, just be politely firm on the LUNCH aspect and of course, pay. Do not acquiesce to the dinner/drinks thing.  It's perhaps a mixed message unless their schedule is such that lunch is never a possibility but it already sounds like you know the deal--so keep it as CLEAR as possible.  And many times during the lunch, keep the subject on business and gratitude for whatever he/she did for you.

*If you do feel something for this person romantically, accept the dinner/drinks and still pay as you invited her/him.  Hopefully since they are trying to push things into a social realm or dating they would also offer up some money or the drinks portion, but if they are trying to characterize it as a date, they might not try (let's say if you are a guy and the other person is a woman).    If you'd like it to be a date, have no problem paying--what a great opportunity that things turned this way and it's a chance to make it clearer to the other person that you are interested in more (carefully of course since business is involved.).

Good luck

[d0nnivain]

Alas the original asker is still probably stuck for the check but should be more open to an offer to split it since the other person increased the price by changing the time of day 

In the professional context it's not a date but the time of day may be more convenient. 

If you are really uncomfortable, you can try to push it back to a lunch claiming you have after work obligations (even if that obligation is a date with your own TV set because you don't really want to have dinner with this person)

[czanclus]

Thanks for the reply, Versace. I am a middle-age female, he's a younger side of old age male. The last time we interacted in real life was almost 10 years ago at which time he was definitely married and as such off limits. Romantic interest would be developing the topic further, but for the record, I'm incredibly flattered if such are his inclinations. However, a lot of unknowns stand in the way of me thinking along those lines, so I prefer to leave that part to the future where I might know more. Primarily, this was intended by me to be a casual advice/possible job referral interaction, and if things go really well, maybe I get to see him (and his family) more often as part of community. This particular connection would in that sense be of great value to me. I am also at that stage in life where I've gotten really fed up with my perennial introversion, and am taking active steps to strengthen connections with people I know and build a community of additional good people.

He initially contacted me and offered without being prompted to help me think through some further steps in my career, a step I am also taking serious action towards, and could certainly use good network connections.

So, when he counter-offered dinner (respectfully, not in a pressuring manner at all), I was somewhat confused. I don't know his work schedule and whether he takes lunches, so is it likely that it was for that reason - dinner being more convenient? Hmm, that's probably all it is, and I'm just making drama for nothing... 

Would most like to avoid any awkwardness with expectations, and to maintain ongoing friendly relationship with this man.

If he's in fact divorced, and by some off chance interested in me, I'll make another topic on that in a few weeks.

[d0nnivain]

Since you want it to be a date, agree to the dinner.  Ask how his wife feels about this.  He's probably single now & hates eating alone.  If it's a date he'll get the check even though you asked & the he gave career advice.  If it's not a date you pay & you still get the career advice.  Plus you do a lonely person a favor. . by giving him company.  

[introverted1]

I think very few people would counter an offer for a business lunch with dinner and drinks unless they were interested in taking things beyond the professional.  Perhaps he wants to catch up (platonically) or perhaps it's a date.

If you're interested (it sounds like you are), find out if he's still married (10 years is a long time and lots could have changed) and, if he isn't, I say go for it. Odds are he will pick up the tab, but you should be prepared to do so, and at least cover the drinks regardless what he offers.

[SaraSays]

It feels a bit too complicated, even if he hadn't countered. I'd feel a bit uncomfortable myself if someone said I could go and get lunch that they'd pay for, not knowing if they really had arranged it fully, and not knowing how to handle it in the restaurant, whether I can truly order what I want, or am expected to order cheap things. It feels fraught with potential misunderstandings and embarassment.

I'm more inclined to send a thank you card and gift voucher or small gift in such situations, so it's easy for someone to enjoy the thank you, independent of me.

[Versacehottie]

Agree with what the others have said.  If you are unsure about dating/his martial status, you could still press for the lunch meeting and then explore each of those topics and gather info a little more.  If you aren't sure about what you want with him romantically and don't want to burn a business contact, this might be the way to go.  It's a baby step in that direction--well either direction because if you decided to pull back it wouldn't be a big deal either. 

It sounds like you might like him though. If you have reason to believe he's not married or he's trustworthy enough that dinner/drinks isn't really a come on (if he is still married) and is just better for his schedule, then do that. After all you wanted to thank him so I think make it easy on the person you are trying to show gratitude toward.  IMO, if he knows you are trying to increase your work opportunities which might correlate with not having a ton to spend, by asking for dinner/drinks, he will likely chip in. Though you shouldn't count on it--be prepared to pay the whole thing.  Actually unless it goes substantially romantic, I wouldn't let him pay for any of it.  Keep your original goal in mind as far as it was to be a "thank you" meal.  If something romantic comes out of the evening, that's a bonus and you can participate in making that happen.  But I think (especially if you want that to happen), people will respect you more if you show your generosity and thoughtful spirit--which is a positive for business connections AND if you want to date him. Good luck

*if you can't really afford it, find a way. put it on your credit card or something. This is not something you want to cheap out on.  I would say the same thing if the whole thing was purely buisness.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Versacehottie

[czanclus]

On 4/24/2021 at 8:14 AM, SaraSays said:

It feels a bit too complicated, even if he hadn't countered. I'd feel a bit uncomfortable myself if someone said I could go and get lunch that they'd pay for, not knowing if they really had arranged it fully, and not knowing how to handle it in the restaurant, whether I can truly order what I want, or am expected to order cheap things. It feels fraught with potential misunderstandings and embarassment.

I'm more inclined to send a thank you card and gift voucher or small gift in such situations, so it's easy for someone to enjoy the thank you, independent of me.

Looking at my (lunch) offer retrospectively, it seems like it was in bad taste, no pun intended. I could write a modest essay on why that is what I opted for given the prior exchange over LinkedIn (his response to what I at first intended to be a message correspondence to which he replied with 'would be happy to talk, we can meet on Zoom or go to lunch or even drink') and me sitting on it a ~little~ preplexed for two weeks until I finally suggested Zoom, plus like I mentioned my uncomfortable state of undefined career (though pay has been excellent in the last few months), mental collision with the state of aging, life passing me by, indulging my introversion my entire adult life, thinking in general he (and his family) would be great to know as part of a wider but still somewhat frequently interacted with community... But I'll just leave the above in my (hapless) defense instead. I'll think some more if I should reach out to him for help with the next step in one career path direction. Just because he specifically asked that I do so, doesn't necessitate that I do it, right?

It is, after all, primarily the woman's responsibility to see to it that a man is always on his best behavior and never steps out of line, all the lovely 'woke' rhetoric in this world notwithstanding.

[Pumpernickel]

I wouldn’t overcomplicate it. You suggested a thank you lunch, he wants to make it a dinner. So what?

I say go for it, if you “like” him. Why overthink it? I’d still pay for the dinner, though, as you are the one inviting him out. If he grabs the check and insists in paying, at least put some tip cash on the table. 

 

Whether or not he’s married still? I mean, if he wants to make it a dinner, it’s his decision - his responsibility. You can’t think or decide on his behalf, as you don’t even know the facts regarding his marital status. So all you can do is assume he’s either single, or his spouse is comfortable with the fact he has the occasional business dinner. That’s about it, right? I’m sure you’ll find out more about his personal life if you meet in person. You can then go from there. It’s not your job to decide whether his actions are appropriate, if you don’t even know his background. If you knew he was married, and if this would make you uncomfortable - different story. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. 

[Pumpernickel]

37 minutes ago, czanclus said:

It is, after all, primarily the woman's responsibility to see to it that a man is always on his best behavior and never steps out of line,

Yes, if you’re his mother.
Adult men should be mature enough to do what they believe is appropriate. So should adult women.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Pumpernickel

[czanclus]

Haha, and yet... here we are, 20 years into the third millennium AD, and the #metoo such a fresh new movement.

But not to distract from the topic... 

[czanclus]

31 minutes ago, Pumpernickel said:

I wouldn’t overcomplicate it. You suggested a thank you lunch, he wants to make it a dinner. So what?

So OK, two weeks after that (no pressure) counter-offer, and another nudge email from him on how the prospective job/ interview is going, I rsvp'd to job develoent update and dinner invite with 'sure, dinner will be fine.' This rsvp was five weeks ago. In the meantime I went to the interview three weeks after my rsvp. I decided after a week of thinking not to accept that job and let the company (this is not his company btw) know to take me out of the consideration. On interview day, just as I got back home around lunchtime, he sent me a check-in email to see about job development and if I was available for dinner that night. I wasn't due to late evening work, but told him two other days and times when I was. That was two weeks ago.

I don't know if it's me, but this whole thing, including the possible mention of his status if that's how the universe had it played out, would have been so much simpler if he just said yes to lunch. Along the lines of 'overcomplicating', I mean...

Edited May 1, 2021 by czanclus

[Pumpernickel]

2 minutes ago, czanclus said:

So OK, two weeks after that (no pressure) counter-offer, and another nudge email from him on how the prospective job/ interview is going, I rsvp'd to job develoent update and dinner invite with 'sure, dinner will be fine.' This rsvp was five weeks ago. In the meantime I went to the interview three weeks after my rsvp. I decided after a week of thinking not to accept that job and let the company (this is not his company btw) know to take me out of the consideration. On interview day, just as I got back home around lunchtime, he sent me a check-in email to see about job development and if I was available for dinner that night. I wasn't due to late evening work, but told him two other days and times when I was. That was two weeks ago.

Oh - ok.

You didn’t mention that. I thought you were unsure whether or not you should accept the dinner counteroffer in the first place. Apparently you already have, and the ball is now in his court to confirm your suggested dates, or come up with a new date? Am I reading this correctly? If I do, he seems lukewarm now for whatever reason. It’s been 2 weeks with no decision? He might be married. It might have to do with the professional/job situation. We don’t know that.

But please correct me if I misunderstood something here. 

[glows]

7 minutes ago, czanclus said:

So OK, two weeks after that (no pressure) counter-offer, and another nudge email from him on how the prospective job/ interview is going, I rsvp'd to job develoent update and dinner invite with 'sure, dinner will be fine.' This rsvp was five weeks ago. In the meantime I went to the interview three weeks after my rsvp. I decided after a week of thinking not to accept that job and let the company (this is not his company btw) know to take me out of the consideration. On interview day, just as I got back home around lunchtime, he sent me a check-in email to see about job development and if I was available for dinner that night. I wasn't due to late evening work, but told him two other days and times when I was. That was two weeks ago.

I don't know if it's me, but this whole thing, including the possible mention of his status if that's how the universe had it played out, would have been so much simpler if he just said yes to lunch. Along the lines of 'overcomplicating', I mean...

His response was overkill to you with counteroffer for dinner/drinks, to be honest. I'd be careful to separate lunch/dinner for pleasure with business connection. You'll have to prioritize one over the other. Don't get confused over what this guy is. If he's a business connection, keep your personal interests out of it. If he's someone you'd like to know more on a personal level, find your own business connections elsewhere and don't mix the two.

You shouldn't feel bad. He's overcomplicated the issue in an effort to impress you - call it ego, whatever you want. 

In future go for straightshooters and transparency in both business and personal but definitely do not mix the two.

 

[czanclus]

"Apparently you already have, and the ball is now in his court to confirm your suggested dates, or come up with a new date? Am I reading this correctly?"

I am not sure, because I don't know if *I* am reading things correctly myself.

Also, let's keep in mind, this whole lunch-turned-dinner situation was supposed to be entirely optional. I posed the question here because I wanted a perspective outside of a girlfriend whom I related this to, who happens to be (broadly speaking) in the same line of work as he is, which is not at all related to my line of work, and who told me that it's not out of regular protocol to invite clients or professional connections to dinner (and drinks?). Like I originally said, I mostly want to check that accepting (or, OK, *having accepted*) such an offer doesn't come with strings attached, whether the man in question is married or single.

I'll address the hypothetically romantic component next. I stress the hypothetical in the 'purely academic' discussion that will follow...

[Pumpernickel]

15 minutes ago, czanclus said:

who told me that it's not out of regular protocol to invite clients or professional connections to dinner (and drinks?)

Regardless of the field of work, I would agree with your girlfriend. Not every dinner invitation is shady, not every man who invites you out to dinner is married, and wants something inappropriate. This would be a very negative way of looking at things.

[czanclus]

"That would be a very negative way of looking at things."

Right, so I accepted dinner. I do indeed plead guilty to overthinking. A very prevalent affliction of my mind. Perhaps it would suit me to try and change...

[Versacehottie]

2 hours ago, Pumpernickel said:

I wouldn’t overcomplicate it.

Yeah this^^^^

I was confused for sure. What actually "happened"? 

The other thing I would say is that although you have all this awarenesses of your life in total and all that stuff going on with you, just simplify it when it comes to him. It's a zoom call, a lunch, a dinner, a business connection. Take the baby steps for whatever it IS or will be.  I think connecting it back to all this internal musing is going to mess you up. Plus no way would he know all that; the average person can't even comprehend what it means in the context of you and him; and most importantly, it feels pretty disparaging to yourself, so it will erode your confidence going into whatever interaction you have with him and you definitely don't want that.

[Pumpernickel]

3 minutes ago, czanclus said:

"That would be a very negative way of looking at things."

Right, so I accepted dinner. I do indeed plead guilty to overthinking. A very prevalent affliction of my mind. Perhaps it would suit me to try and change...

Being an overthinker myself, I can relate. But in this case, it’s pretty simple: You accepted the dinner idea and told him so, you suggested two dates that would suit you better than the one he originally suggested, and he never took you up on that offer. There is nothing left to overthink here. He might or might not try again with a different date suggestion. 

[czanclus]

2 hours ago, glows said:

If he's someone you'd like to know more on a personal level, find your own business connections elsewhere and don't mix the two.

I'll pivot to the aforementioned hypothetical discussion on romantic interest level from here.

2011 - I come into this affluent and highly established in his career man's life as an 'entourage' of sorts hired to help with one of his then high-school aged kids catch up with missed work in school and consequent bad grades. I stay in this role through the end of school year, about 6 more months. Throughout this period, the man is polite and friendly, talkative as it pertains to his kid's school progress, but not at all flirty. I am on my end also basically the antithesis of flirty, with him or anyone else, but not to digress... As I mentioned earlier, seems happily married to a woman who is also very nice to me, seems like a great mom, compassionate person, very attractive in a cool/urban way. Not nearly as cultured/intellectual as him, but holds her own well in the relationship from this 'bystander's' passive perspective. I am at that time a fairly new single mom to a 5-year-old juggling multiple gigs to try and make ends meet. My mind is a high speed freeway of thoughts baked to various levels of wholesomeness, so guilty as charged on the rampant thought of 'wow, I wish I had met someone like that in my life. It must be such a sublime existence raising a family in this well-defined, yet so spontaneously original environment.'

Then, about 6 months later, after I've secured a schedule-wise more 'compact' job and have much less time to accommodate tutoring, I run into him at a grocery store. We exchange a greeting and a brief catch-up on my new job. My (now high-school aged) kid still fit into a shopping cart, for scale.

Then, I never encounter him again.

I need to figure out how to log in to this site from my computer. Typing is getting tedious over phone.

And this is a serious crowd. Not a tl;dr bunch of redditors. More like "way too long and verbose, but I still read it all, and here's my thoughts" kind of crowd.  and I am here to say I greatly appreciate it.

Edited May 1, 2021 by czanclus

[czanclus]

Continuing on the pivot trajectory, at about that time -  spring of 2012 - I was actually emotionally invested in someone else with whom things afterwards didn't pan out, so the above quoted rampant thought wasn't by any stretch something that consumed me for any fraction of a given timespan. It was just an observation, one of a small number of hundreds I come up with going through my day. For additional context, if need be...

Fall of 2020, he requested my connection on LinkedIn, and while I generally 'keep the accounts straight' (for instance, my sister, who's a medical professional, is not a connection on my LinkedIn since our fields do not overlap), I accepted the request. This guy knows people. Like 'people in high leadership positions' kind of people. And this gal here needs to figure out what she wants to be for the next projected 23+ years of her undefined (but for her current needs respectably paid) career.

This also hopefully brings to at least a dim light behind decision to connect with the person professionally.

If anyone's keeping track further or cares to, I have no priors of 'fishing off the company dock', but to be fair, not that there have been any notable opportunities or temptations for me to really claim credit on 'integrity', 'professionalism', and 'adhering to righteous principles' confronted with them. That said, in case the former was too subtle, I see nothing wrong with meeting someone through work, acknowledging the level of mutual chemistry, and then deciding from there what makes most sense, including the scenario of one of the parties changing jobs if that is for the better. Chemistry should not be ignored. It makes the later choice of loving someone so much more natural and purposeful. But back to the more specific hypothetical discussion...

With the LinkedIn connection request comes a 'personal' message on the note of 'hello, it's been a long time, I hope you've been well.' Within two weeks of receiving the message, I reply with a brief update on the (mostly same-old) decade, still torn between the two career tracks but plugging through the second, my kid's high school aspirations, hope his family and him have been well, crazy pandemic times we're living in, the usual banter... I receive a somewhat longer and more detailed reply message from him within the next hour, mostly on his kids' life progress, with a closing of 'if I can help you think through the next steps of your career, I would be happy to do so. Please do keep in touch.'

Five months elapse without any contact...

[czanclus]

On 5/1/2021 at 10:31 AM, Pumpernickel said:

You accepted the dinner idea and told him so, you suggested two dates that would suit you better than the one he originally suggested, and he never took you up on that offer. There is nothing left to overthink here. He might or might not try again with a different date suggestion. 

Oh, I'm not trying to 'overthink' anything along the lines of why hasn't he come up with a next specific date for this dinner by now. I was in yesterday's post just reflecting on the part about my original lunch invitation being in bad taste that opened this whole 'why the counter-offer' contemplation. I get that most people would by now not even recall that it happened, but I am not like these people, I ponder people's behavior and choices. Among a cosmos of other things that I ponder.

If anything, as I mentioned before, I'm debating if I should (without any mention of the dinner, needless to say) respond to his request to keep him posted on the post-interview decision (once again, not his company for which job I interviewed) as well as updates on my job search in the field where he has a non-negligible influence to put my resume on top of the pile. The rest is, needless to say but I'll say it, up to me to prove.

Edited May 3, 2021 by czanclus

[Versacehottie]

1 hour ago, czanclus said:

Oh, I'm not trying to 'overthink' anything along the lines of why hasn't he come up with a next specific date for this dinner by now. I was in yesterday's post just reflecting on the part about my original lunch invitation being in bad taste that opened this whole 'why the counter-offer' contemplation. I get that most people would by now not even recall that it happened, but I am not like these people, I ponder people's behavior and choices. Among a cosmos of other things that I ponder.

If anything, as I mentioned before, I'm debating if I should (without any mention of the dinner, needless to say) respond to his request to keep him posted on the post-interview decision (once again, not his company for which job I interviewed) as well as updates on my job search in the field where he has a non-negligible influence to put my resume on top of the pile. The rest is, needless to say but I'll say it, up to me to prove.

Ok, I hope the guy is as wordy or appreciates wordiness as much as you do. I'm not saying that as a put down.  I just think if you speak or write like this with the guy and he's not cut from the same cloth, you're going to lose his attention.  Not because guys don't appreciate smart--but it still has to be relatable. To me, this is so in your head/in your thoughts, I honestly can't keep track of what we are actually talking about. In a way, that's fine with us--though you might be missing out on valuable feedback.  But with him try not to overcomplicate it. It still needs to be fun. I think getting stuck in an overcomplicated, over thinkers head is not fun for a lot of people and guys are wary of it.  Idk, if you say it ALL in jest and than can quickly switch to a regular sentence where he could get the gist of what you are saying and you guys can laugh about it.  I guess what I'm trying to say is this isn't that relatable. Sorry, I know you seem like a nice person. Trying to help. 

Also you don't want to live in your thoughts (what I could extract from your story seemed like you might be doing just that). You want to be grounded in reality and what he actually could be thinking about you. Do you think he likes you? Romantically?

[czanclus]

36 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

I hope the guy is as wordy or appreciates wordiness as much as you do.

Thanks for the reply. If you hope so, that makes one of us. I really could not bother molding my however oddly made self to at the age of 43 pander to his or any other man's affinities. If he gets me, great. If he doesn't, his loss. I didn't come here seeking advice on how to be more 'relatable' and thus likeable by men, least of all what could with high likelihood be a married man whose contact purpose was genuinely professional. Yeah, sue me for the thought that he's probably a badass husband and a caring father, and could be a meaningful friend.

All that said, I can make him none the wiser if it serves the professional goal. Not like he's reading this topic thinking 'oh, wow, this chick on some serious tripping pills'. I didn't even quite understand what isn't relatable, to whom is it not relatable, and for what reason, and what 'frequency' is lacking. You can, if you wish, clarify.