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Can someone give me an example between the difference of 'Basic Conversation' and 'Flirty Conversation'

IntBrowser

By IntBrowser
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d0nnivain Established Member

d0nnivain

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, IntBrowser said:

  Years ago I was told by a woman I have no game.    Well that's probably true so I was never taught

That was years ago.  You are not the same person now. 

There are some women who value "game".  They need somebody witty, sharp who's always the center of attention.  Many other women hate that type of guy & claim such a person is a player to be avoided at all costs.  

If that stuff doesn't come naturally to do you, don't worry about it. For you to be that guy you would have to be fake, which never works. Certainly do not adopt any PUA claptrap.  Do find a way to increase your overall confidence & self esteem, which has nothing to do with having game.    

Instead be yourself but be a better listener.  More women will be attracted by you being genuine & you showing sincere interest in them.  Work on your active listening skills.  

"Game" may get a certain type of woman into bed, but being a solid, reliable, dependable, loyal guy sustains a relationship as long as you find a woman with those same values.  

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SaraSays Established Member

SaraSays

Posted
Posted

It's possible to flirt with anyone, men or women. Avoid anything smutty, as that's, at best, off-putting, and, at worst, a reason some people will end a conversation, and avoid talking with you in future. Start observing how strangers around you make each other laugh, or smile. I was trying to order a warm drink for a friend earlier, and burst out laughing at myself as I tried to remember all the fancy things and special things to say (certain type of milk) and so on, and made a complete mess of it, as I am used to just ordering straightforward drinks. I burst out laughing as I said "probably with all the bloody special things - I have no clue - let's just say it's that", and the lady serving me was laughing along with me, and kept joking to another colleague about it, as she asked him to prepare a drink with every special requirement.

It's a pleasure to share joy and laughter with anyone, male or female.

 

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cleverusername Established Member

cleverusername

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

That was years ago.  You are not the same person now. 

There are some women who value "game".  They need somebody witty, sharp who's always the center of attention.  Many other women hate that type of guy & claim such a person is a player to be avoided at all costs.  

If that stuff doesn't come naturally to do you, don't worry about it. For you to be that guy you would have to be fake, which never works. Certainly do not adopt any PUA claptrap.  Do find a way to increase your overall confidence & self esteem, which has nothing to do with having game.    

Instead be yourself but be a better listener.  More women will be attracted by you being genuine & you showing sincere interest in them.  Work on your active listening skills.  

"Game" may get a certain type of woman into bed, but being a solid, reliable, dependable, loyal guy sustains a relationship as long as you find a woman with those same values.  

Highlighted. Solid, reliable, dependable, loyal is the broth. Game is the pepper.

or something like that, not really sure how cooking soup works.

Edited by cleverusername
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SumGuy Established Member

SumGuy

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, IntBrowser said:

well I cant learn without some type of example.   Years ago I was told by a woman I have no game.    Well that's probably true so I was never taught

Would need exact context, like exact texts/messages (redacted for personal info of course) and need to know what she is interested in, etc.    I analogize it to being humorous in the spur of the moment, making a witty of funny observation, etc.    Examples are very hard and often flat if not in the moment. 

I say forget "game," and generally would next a woman who thinks that way.  Everything I am speaking of is not about game, it is about connection.  You don't need to worry about flirting if can have a connected conversation with her (see my example on talking abut cabal woes).   She will likely flirt with you.  

Regardless, I can't imagine there is not some place on the internet with examples of flirting, just avoid and ignore the whole PUA stuff.

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SumGuy Established Member

SumGuy

Posted
Posted
On 4/23/2021 at 12:03 PM, Gaeta said:

To me flirting has nothing to do with sexual innuendos. 

What! I love a good clever subtle innuendo..:) but agree there is much more to it than that, innuendo is the result of great flirting not the flirting itself. 

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SumGuy Established Member

SumGuy

Posted
Posted
On 4/23/2021 at 12:20 PM, IntBrowser said:

Its normally the opening tone of her hello on the phone during the 1st convo which normally lets me know how far it will go.      

Perhaps, that would imply you have deep social perception.  I would never read much into the tone of the hello, at least with regards to me.  Whatever the tone is it likely has nothing to do with me and everything to do with her day...assuming I was interpreting the tone correctly...and assuming she was not putting on a tone as people are wont to do.

poppyfields Established Member

poppyfields

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

What! I love a good clever subtle innuendo..:) but agree there is much more to it than that, innuendo is the result of great flirting not the flirting itself. 

Guess what?  That's precisely what having good "game" is, knowing what works and executing it properly, as per above. 

Not sure why "game" gets such a bad rap. It doesn't have to mean lies or deception, again it's knowing what works and executing it.

Through experimenting and experience.  And like another poster said (sorry, forget who) knowing your audience and the ability to read people correctly.

The PUA stuff, it's not ALL bad, some of it will help men who tend to be overly needy and "white knights" with zero game.  

It's not supposed to be followed to the letter, that would be contrived and come off disingenuous.  Phony.

You can read it along with other books and articles re interpersonal relationships, human behavior and the masculine/feminine polarity and work it into your own style.  

 

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SumGuy Established Member

SumGuy

Posted
Posted
On 4/27/2021 at 9:59 AM, poppyfields said:

.....

Not sure why "game" gets such a bad rap. It doesn't have to mean lies or deception, again it's knowing what works and executing it. ....

I think it gets such a bad rap as a large portion of it is all about manipulation...posturing and negging being examples.  I'll admit not an expert on the PUA universe, but the times I've seen "game" where it is just abut listening to women and connecting with them...that is called "natural game" and the PUA sites are here to tell you how to fake it.    The focus on being "alpha" is all about putting on a persona you don't have on these sites.  

PUA also, it seems, is all about turning it into some algorithm or tactics list (one of course you need to be coached on $ and practice)...those tactics being very much attuned to "what works" to prey on women's insecurities.   

That is not just learning social skills and how to communicate.  It is not about respect, but rather women as objects that don't know their own minds and thus tactics can be formulated to get them in bed, instead of genuinely connecting.  On the later, it is almost a mantra it seems in the PUA world that women say they want x but they really want y. 

Never ever have seen a PUA site even hint that different women want different things, no they all want "alphas" (as defined by the PUA site) or they are lesbians, fem-nazis, or such. It's really hard to keep up with misogyny spheres words for women who do not conform to their wishes.

I have never seen a PUA site (again no expert) that has any fundamental problem with deception or manipulation, after all it is just about getting laid not relationships.  To the extent being genuine or honesty is recommended that is just because of the danger of being caught and it "works" better.

Admit have read way too much of this stuff, part a fascination with a train wreck (i.e. the men buying in to this are the train wreck) and having daughters who I warn about this stuff...especially the more devious tactics.   From what I have seen the whole PUA attitude is one step away from date-rape (if not discretely excusing it).

Quote

The PUA stuff, it's not ALL bad, some of it will help men who tend to be overly needy and "white knights" with zero game.  ...

One would have to define PUA.   I do not include in it any and all advice on how to talk with women, and certainly not advice on how to get a LTR.   PUA I would keep to: how to in a first meeting with a women get sex (pick her up) for a ONS, with the longest time horizon being sex by date 3...but in any event lots of one-size fits all advice which basically boils down to put as little effort into her as possible...at best.  Sure that may help the guys who have gone way overboard and sacrifice themselves for someone they just met, but PUA advice goes way too far the other way...and comes wrapped up with a lot of other toxicity.

I agree it is not all bad as in 100% of "PUA" sites" are bad and 100% of the content on any one site is bad.  But even on sites where not 100% is bad, when the vast majority of the site is bad and the very underlying assumptions about women and attraction are bad to vile, that part that is good is actually corrupted and perhaps used as cover for the palpable misogyny. 

Have to say have never seen a PUA site that is good, it kind of can't because it would have to recognize women are different, and more importantly not be about picking women up.  That is, if the site was all about learning to listen and connect so you can get laid, even if you don't lie about yourself or feign interest (a big if) you are lying about your intent unless you come right out with just looking for a ONS.  So in essence, you are trying to make her feel connected to you and trust you, but you have zero intention of really connecting to her....it is all about just getting laid...that is deception when you are not explicitly up front about it.

Happy to be shown wrong, but honest in deed, words and intent, don't think a PUA site like that exists.

 

To bring it full circle, "game", no mater what it's general or original meaning, is so strongly tied to PUA philosophy I don't believe you can dissociate the two any longer.   Rather a different term would need to be used to capture those aspect that are not part of the PUA creed on attraction and women.

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d0nnivain Established Member

d0nnivain

Posted
Posted

Just like that old chestnut, the book The Rules, at ground, some PUA stuff is about developing confidence, which is wonderful for those who don't have much.  It should not be followed like a recipe.  

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Wiseman2 Established Member

Wiseman2

Posted
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

PUA advice goes way too far the other way...and comes wrapped up with a lot of other toxicity.

Agree. Not to derail the thread with the mix up between flirting skills and PUA but...

PUA is defined as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center:

"One of the defining strands of online male supremacist movements is pick-up artistry. Pick Up Artists (PUA) have focused on teaching men how to manipulate women into sex, all the while constantly disparaging women and the idea of consent.

The most prominent PUA is Roosh V. who has called for the legalization of rape on private property on his popular website, Return of Kings, founded in October 2012. Roosh has repeatedly boasted of raping women in his Bang books, accounts of which were collected by David Futrelle on his website, We Hunted the Mammoth. A website festering with misogyny and incitements to rape"

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/male-supremacy

 

Edited by Wiseman2
SumGuy Established Member

SumGuy

Posted
Posted

@Wiseman2

Yikes!   Guess I am not the only one picking up on the undercurrents, or I guess here outright vileness.

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smackie9 Established Member

smackie9

Posted
Posted

It's not done with a specific word for word play by play...it's a method of push/pull. You learn the method, and you put your own words to work. It's a learned art. Kinda have to do it through posturing, reading body language, gauging their reactions, then move forward with friendly banter and quick wit.

normal person Established Member

normal person

Posted
Posted
On 4/23/2021 at 11:11 AM, IntBrowser said:

My cable and internet went out and I was mentioning how I cancelled comcast and signed up with T mobile

None of this matters. She's evaluating your potential as a romantic partner, you've got carte blanche to present yourself to her, and all you're doing is relaying the fact that you cancelled your internet in favor of another. Why? Was it funny? Did she learn anything interesting about you in the process? If not, why would you expect her to be at all captivated by this? Imagine her friends asking her about you afterwards.

"What's he like?"
"Well, uhhh, let's see... he uses T Mobile and not Comcast..."

IF you have a genuine interest in someone's life, ex: where they come from, why they do things the way they do, why they think the things they think, what they value, how they act, then just let that be the foundation of the conversation and if you like what you hear, maybe turn up the heat at some point and that would be flirting. But you should probably be having fulfilling conversation, not a personal diatribe about internet service providers. It's hard for you to talk about Comcast for 15 minutes and then pivot to paying her a compliment if she doesn't feel you're as interested in her as you are Comcast. 

If you're not interested in these things and would rather talk about trivial stuff, why even bother wasting your time and hers? What's the point of dating someone if you don't have any interest in learning about them? And if you do, why don't you just ask? 

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IntBrowser Established Member

IntBrowser

Posted
  • Author
Posted
4 hours ago, normal person said:

None of this matters. She's evaluating your potential as a romantic partner, you've got carte blanche to present yourself to her, and all you're doing is relaying the fact that you cancelled your internet in favor of another. Why? Was it funny? Did she learn anything interesting about you in the process? If not, why would you expect her to be at all captivated by this? Imagine her friends asking her about you afterwards.

"What's he like?"
"Well, uhhh, let's see... he uses T Mobile and not Comcast..."

IF you have a genuine interest in someone's life, ex: where they come from, why they do things the way they do, why they think the things they think, what they value, how they act, then just let that be the foundation of the conversation and if you like what you hear, maybe turn up the heat at some point and that would be flirting. But you should probably be having fulfilling conversation, not a personal diatribe about internet service providers. It's hard for you to talk about Comcast for 15 minutes and then pivot to paying her a compliment if she doesn't feel you're as interested in her as you are Comcast. 

If you're not interested in these things and would rather talk about trivial stuff, why even bother wasting your time and hers? What's the point of dating someone if you don't have any interest in learning about them? And if you do, why don't you just ask? 

That 1st conversation was something I always used as a ice breaker since a lot of women be nervous to talk on the phone.   And that normally works and its usually the 2nd convo where I start setting up meeting face to face.     But i think I blew a chance to meet someone last week.     We matched on a Thursday and she asked if I had any plans and I said some summer shopping on saturday  and that's about it.    But I didnt want to say "why are you interested in meeting this weekend because I feel if I talk to someone for the 1st time on a Thursday, it seems desperate to try and meet that weekend since its so close.    So I normally wait until the following weekend.    Now if we talk for the first time on a monday, my goal is to meet that coming weekend.    I do need to start making myself available on sundays if I want to meet someone and be in a relationship.    I normally want to relax on sundays and prefer to meet on mon to sat

Gaeta Established Member

Gaeta

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, IntBrowser said:

But I didnt want to say "why are you interested in meeting this weekend because I feel if I talk to someone for the 1st time on a Thursday, it seems desperate to try and meet that weekend since its so close.    So I normally wait until the following weekend.    Now if we talk for the first time on a monday, my goal is to meet that coming weekend.    I do need to start making myself available on sundays if I want to meet someone and be in a relationship.    I normally want to relax on sundays and prefer to meet on mon to sat

While you're delaying to meet, to not appear desperate, someone else is meeting her.

Is it a generation thing this fear of appearing desperate? In my generation a man that acts with no delay appears confident and interested.

Are you that old that you prefer a day off to meeting with a woman?

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IntBrowser Established Member

IntBrowser

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, Gaeta said:

While you're delaying to meet, to not appear desperate, someone else is meeting her.

Is it a generation thing this fear of appearing desperate? In my generation a man that acts with no delay appears confident and interested.

Are you that old that you prefer a day off to meeting with a woman?

Dont laugh but I always felt a first meet on a sunday was too risky because if it dont go well then it destroys the weekend and makes me not want to go to work on monday.   So If I meet on saturday and it dont go well atleast I have a day to get it out of my system.    Going out on a 2nd date on a sunday is no issue

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cleverusername Established Member

cleverusername

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Gaeta said:

While you're delaying to meet, to not appear desperate, someone else is meeting her.

Is it a generation thing this fear of appearing desperate? In my generation a man that acts with no delay appears confident and interested.

Are you that old that you prefer a day off to meeting with a woman?

Not a generation thing. I'll ask a woman out by either the 5th or 6th text of 2nd conversation if im interested. I'm not looking for a friend i'm looking for a date. Got to set the romantic expectation early

52 minutes ago, IntBrowser said:

Dont laugh but I always felt a first meet on a sunday was too risky because if it dont go well then it destroys the weekend and makes me not want to go to work on monday.   So If I meet on saturday and it dont go well atleast I have a day to get it out of my system.    Going out on a 2nd date on a sunday is no issue

I actually think this is understandable, plus if it goes WELL you don't have to go in on monday ;)

Wiseman2 Established Member

Wiseman2

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, IntBrowser said:

 I always felt a first meet on a sunday was too risky because if it dont go well then it destroys the weekend.

That is kind of funny. "Sorry, I can't meet on Sundays in case the date sucks".

Just meet for coffee. That way if it sucks, you've only invested a few minutes and a cup of coffee.

 

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Gaeta Established Member

Gaeta

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, IntBrowser said:

Dont laugh but I always felt a first meet on a sunday was too risky because if it dont go well then it destroys the weekend and makes me not want to go to work on monday.   So If I meet on saturday and it dont go well atleast I have a day to get it out of my system.    Going out on a 2nd date on a sunday is no issue

But, it should not destroy you to that level. You are highly disappointed because you invest too much before the first meeting. You are your own worst ennemy. 

I had many first meeting on the same day, or following day, we connected online. The men never came across as needy or desperate. They came across as leaders actually. If it didn't click then no big deal, we didn't spent 2 weeks getting to know each other on text. 

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Gaeta Established Member

Gaeta

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, cleverusername said:

Not a generation thing. I'll ask a woman out by either the 5th or 6th text of 2nd conversation if im interested. I'm not looking for a friend i'm looking for a date. Got to set the romantic expectation early

If you meet on a **dating** app/site isn't it a given that you're not looking for a friend? And isn't your profile saying you're looking for dating/relationship/longterm? You will feel the romance or not when you meet face to face. You can exhaust yourself chatting with her before meeting, giving her compliments, flirting, if she doesn't feel a little something when she meets you then all that investment is a waste of time and energy. And that waste of time and energy is what renders people bitter.

Years ago I was browsing on a dating site when I got a message from a man: Hey! I like your profile, I live about 10 mins from you, about we just meet for coffee instead of chatting on here. 30 mins later we were having a coffee. We dated a year. That's the same guy from my earlier story that we got to the coffee shop and everything was closed in the area because of a road repair. We ended up in a dirty Subway fast food. 

Men need to relax and stop thinking there is a magic recipe to winning a woman over, that there are so many magic number of texts, a magic number of compliments, a magic restaurant somewhere. There is none of that. 

 

Uruktopi Established Member

Uruktopi

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, IntBrowser said:

Dont laugh but I always felt a first meet on a sunday was too risky because if it dont go well then it destroys the weekend and makes me not want to go to work on monday.   

It´s not a bad advice for a wider scope : Don´t get married on sundays...

cleverusername Established Member

cleverusername

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

If you meet on a **dating** app/site isn't it a given that you're not looking for a friend? And isn't your profile saying you're looking for dating/relationship/longterm? You will feel the romance or not when you meet face to face. You can exhaust yourself chatting with her before meeting, giving her compliments, flirting, if she doesn't feel a little something when she meets you then all that investment is a waste of time and energy. And that waste of time and energy is what renders people bitter.

Years ago I was browsing on a dating site when I got a message from a man: Hey! I like your profile, I live about 10 mins from you, about we just meet for coffee instead of chatting on here. 30 mins later we were having a coffee. We dated a year. That's the same guy from my earlier story that we got to the coffee shop and everything was closed in the area because of a road repair. We ended up in a dirty Subway fast food. 

Men need to relax and stop thinking there is a magic recipe to winning a woman over, that there are so many magic number of texts, a magic number of compliments, a magic restaurant somewhere. There is none of that. 

 

No it's not a given. You need to be able to distinguish between actually wanting to pursue a relationship vs a hookup, first impressions count. Whether that's over text, over the phone, in person. Also, women do not want to meet some random person off an app right away. They want to gauge whether its safe, but also whether or not the person is interesting beyond looks. It's a lot easier to unmatch someone than go on a date and ghost.

Gaeta Established Member

Gaeta

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, cleverusername said:

They want to gauge whether its safe, but also whether or not the person is interesting beyond looks. It's a lot easier to unmatch someone than go on a date and ghost.

And what's the problem with gauging that in person? Like in the good old days before the app existed. People had to spend time together to evaluate each other. If you're afraid to be used for a hookup just don't jump into be on first night. 

cleverusername Established Member

cleverusername

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

And what's the problem with gauging that in person? Like in the good old days before the app existed. People had to spend time together to evaluate each other. If you're afraid to be used for a hookup just don't jump into be on first night. 

Why? Why go through the trouble or getting ready, meeting, a date to filter someone on core values when you can do that over text from your pajamas at your own convivence?

Not saying it's my preference, but people today are lazy and spoiled.

Gaeta Established Member

Gaeta

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, cleverusername said:

Why? Why go through the trouble or getting ready, meeting, a date to filter someone on core values when you can do that over text from your pajamas at your own convivence?

 

Because core values are something you demonstrate with actions, not something you list over a phone conversation.

My ex-bf told me he didn't beleive in casual sex, that he needed an emotional connection to be intimate. His actions showed he was a sex addict who had sex probably 100s of women during our relationship. 

Talk is cheap. 

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