Is there any way forward?

[spiderowl]

I'm struggling with a 'relationship' with this guy.  I am not sure how to deal with some issues that have arisen.  They seem obvious problems to me but apparently not to him.

The main problem is that I cannot talk to him about any problems that I have.  It is as if he immediately needs to tell me what to do (basically I should try harder or push through it) or he changes the subject.  From my point of view, if this is a romantic relationship then we should be able to share and try to understand each other.  I don't expect him to be my therapist but to try to understand and sometimes sympathise.  He doesn't seem to be able to think like that.

He is an interesting person in other ways, very resourceful, responsible, likes to go out and spend time in the countryside, have coffee and suchlike, but there is this blind spot.  I got very frustrated with it, and very sad because I like him and would have liked this to turn into something long-lasting; however, I just can't spend precious years with someone who does not appear to be able to relate on the same level.

I have mentioned it a few times and, on one occasion, told him he didn't listen or understand.  He seemed shocked but nothing changed.  I don't think there is any point in teaching him how to listen more empathically and I am wondering if I am expecting too much of a guy? My ex was much more understanding (but there were other issues).  

I've come to the conclusion that if we keep a relationship it needs to be just friends because it cannot develop emotionally in any way due to the above.  He still wants us to meet and go out.  I'm truly baffled as to why because although we enjoy going to places and having congenial company for the outing, for me there is always this missing piece which limits the relationship.

Should I give up on this guy altogether?  I don't want to mislead him into thinking this could be anything more than a friendship now, though it has been in the past.  I have told him we should just be friends and that we are not compatible.  It doesn't seem to put him off.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by spiderowl

[d0nnivain]

Can you get him to read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus or at least excepts from the book to help him understand why his suggestions aren't helpful? 

Edited March 22, 2021 by d0nnivain

[spiderowl]

Thanks Donnivain, I have thought about it but he might find that insulting.  It just seems strange to me but maybe I was just lucky that my ex was more empathic.

I feel I can't 'train' him and shouldn't have to.  Am I being unreasonable?

[d0nnivain]

Some partners can be taught new things or new ways of thinking but sometimes you just have to accept them for who they are. 

If you can soft pedal the book that might help.  Present it to him as you think you are not communicating clearly & this may help him understand your point better.  

[neowulf]

People have different levels of baseline empathy.
He sounds like a very down to earth, straight forward kind of person.

"If you've got a problem fix it, otherwise, why complain about it?"

Nothing wrong with that line of thinking, but if you require a deeper level of empathy from your partner, you're not going to get it from this guy.

I think you'd be better off creating some distance, so it doesn't hit him like a brick when you decide to start seeing someone else.

[Wiseman2]

Is he condescending? It would be best to talk to trusted friends and family and your therapist about problems he can't/won't discuss. If he's the "mansplaining" type, you won't feel satisfied with his 'fixing' answers.

[spiderowl]

Yes, he does seem very straightforward in lots of ways.  I don't know how to handle this as it is just so clearly avoidance of any emotional subjects.  Sadly, that's not right for me as I'm a very sensitive person.

 I would think he has heard of the book but I might ask him if he has.

He is not deliberately condescending but has been in some ways.  I feel so sorry because I know he likes me and wants to spend time with me.  How can he not see what the problem is when I've mentioned it?

I don't think I can develop a relationship with him because it would feel so lacking.  It doesn't seem possible to share anything emotional or to discuss problems with him as I would with friends.  

[neowulf]

49 minutes ago, spiderowl said:

Yes, he does seem very straightforward in lots of ways.  I don't know how to handle this as it is just so clearly avoidance of any emotional subjects.  Sadly, that's not right for me as I'm a very sensitive person.

 I would think he has heard of the book but I might ask him if he has.

He is not deliberately condescending but has been in some ways.  I feel so sorry because I know he likes me and wants to spend time with me.  How can he not see what the problem is when I've mentioned it?

I don't think I can develop a relationship with him because it would feel so lacking.  It doesn't seem possible to share anything emotional or to discuss problems with him as I would with friends.  

People show us who they are.  Our job is to believe them. 

A lot of people are perfectly happy with a partner who's "no nonsense" and down to earth.  They don't rely on their partners for emotional support, they get it from friends or relatives.  Sure, it's not my style of relationship, but it works for some people.

The problem is you require a deeper, emotional connection and sadly, I don't think he's going to be able to provide that for you.  Better to figure that our early, then attempt to twist him into something he isn't.  Neither of you will end up happy that way.

[chillii]

15 hours ago, neowulf said:

People have different levels of baseline empathy.
He sounds like a very down to earth, straight forward kind of person.

"If you've got a problem fix it, otherwise, why complain about it?"

Nothing wrong with that line of thinking, but if you require a deeper level of empathy from your partner, you're not going to get it from this guy.

I think you'd be better off creating some distance, so it doesn't hit him like a brick when you decide to start seeing someone else.

 

Yeah , pretty well what l was thinking too.

 

 

 

[Gaeta]

I have mixed feelings on that subject. Yes I think our partner in life should offer us moral and emotional support but at the same time regular men/women are not equipped to play therapist with you. 

Men by nature are problem solvers so it's normal that when you come to him with a problem he goes into 'problem solving' mode. 

Are you always complaining about the same thing? Is he tired of hearing about the same issue that you don't solve? 

I am a problem solver if you come to me with an issue I will offer you a solution before I offer you empathy. The people close to me understand that side of me so when they just want to vent they warn me ahead of time 'mom, I just need to vent about work don't offer me solutions'. When I am warned ahead I listen and sympathise and I can be very comforting when I am not in my problem solving mode. 

I think telling this man after the fact that he's not a good listener isn't a good strategy. You have to warn him ahead of time you need to vent and you need him to listen. Give that a try. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Gaeta

[smackie9]

You are not compatible if your expect his love language to be a sympathetic listener/problem solver in order to have an emotional connection. He is just not that way or in his personality. This should be a deal breaker for you.

Edited March 23, 2021 by smackie9

[poppyfields]

15 hours ago, neowulf said:

The problem is you require a deeper, emotional connection and sadly, I don't think he's going to be able to provide that for you.  Better to figure that out early, then attempt to twist him into.

Here's the conundrum.  

You can't 'figure it out early' because a deep emotional connection takes time to build and achieve.  Lots of time and trust, which also take time to build. Lots of time.  Lots of mutual TRUST.

I actually think this man might be capable of it, problem is spiderowl you want it now. Before you're even in a committed relationship? 

 I'm curious how long you've been 'dating' him, and if you have met and spent time with him in person OR if this is an on-line interaction. 

No judgment, but you put the word relationship in single quotes, so just curious.

Also, if I may ask, why are you discussing your problems with him this early in?  And expecting him to understand, empathize, and help you resolve?  

Relationships, a deeper connection take time.  Many months, sometimes years!  

That said, if he is too cerebral for your liking in other ways - non-verbally expressive in general, not w/r/t your problems because I am of the opinion that you should not be burdening a new partner with your problems.

But rather too cerebral about life, the world, the state of humanity (if you enjoy discussing these things) then move on.

But re the deep emotional connection you desire, again this takes time, you cannot force it or push it.  

It's a slow build.  And I know of no couple who can achieve this type of deep connection without first developing trust for each other, a vulnerability and love. 

Unless I have misinterpreted your dilemma, you're putting the cart before the horse expecting this before a relationship develops, naturally and organically. 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by poppyfields

[Fletch Lives]

20 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Can you get him to read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus or at least excepts from the book to help him understand why his suggestions aren't helpful? 

That's a nice idea, but I suspect it would take more than one book. This guy is probably going to have to become a counselor and have an epiphany to change.

 

Are we talking about a lover or a friend here? This is the dating forum.

 

It's a shame, but some people are not the best listeners and don't know how to treat people well.

 

I just witnessed this with a friend who was going through a breakup........she tried to talk to her lady friend about it but her lady friend got mad at her, called her crazy, and walked out on her. Sad. Of course she's emotional - she just got her heart busted up. Of course I listen to her and it's great therapy for her. But I'm a life coach and know exactly what to do. Pretty soon I'll end up being this woman's best friend. She looks like Meg Ryan.

 

I will also tell you women need to talk and need someone to listen - it's part of romance, and women crave it.

 

A man who is top catch is a great listener (among other things).

 

So, the bottom line is, this guy is weak in the romance department. And romance is one of the things that keeps a woman in love for the long haul (your love level is going down). 

 

He certainly won't be your best friend either.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Fletch Lives

[spiderowl]

4 hours ago, Gaeta said:

I have mixed feelings on that subject. Yes I think our partner in life should offer us moral and emotional support but at the same time regular men/women are not equipped to play therapist with you. 

Men by nature are problem solvers so it's normal that when you come to him with a problem he goes into 'problem solving' mode. 

Are you always complaining about the same thing? Is he tired of hearing about the same issue that you don't solve? 

I am a problem solver if you come to me with an issue I will offer you a solution before I offer you empathy. The people close to me understand that side of me so when they just want to vent they warn me ahead of time 'mom, I just need to vent about work don't offer me solutions'. When I am warned ahead I listen and sympathise and I can be very comforting when I am not in my problem solving mode. 

I think telling this man after the fact that he's not a good listener isn't a good strategy. You have to warn him ahead of time you need to vent and you need him to listen. Give that a try. 

I appreciate your thoughts on this Gaeta.  I certainly don't want to always be complaining to him.  The last thing I want is to be a problem or hassle to him.  I have in effect tried to chase him off because I don't want to be seen as a nuisance who needs something he doesn't want to/isn't able to give.   It doesn't seem to put him off though.  I suppose he has 'got round' the issue by avoiding it.  I don't understand why he wants to spend time with me if he's not comfortable with me.

I suppose it comes down to what Donnivain said, whether I can accept him as he is.  I just don't know.  I know I would continually feel something was missing and he deserves better than that.

 

[spiderowl]

3 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Here's the conundrum.  

You can't 'figure it out early' because a deep emotional connection takes time to build and achieve.  Lots of time and trust, which also take time to build. Lots of time.  Lots of mutual TRUST.

I actually think this man might be capable of it, problem is spiderowl you want it now. Before you're even in a committed relationship? 

 I'm curious how long you've been 'dating' him, and if you have met and spent time with him in person OR if this is an on-line interaction. 

No judgment, but you put the word relationship in single quotes, so just curious.

Also, if I may ask, why are you discussing your problems with him this early in?  And expecting him to understand, empathize, and help you resolve?  

Relationships, a deeper connection take time.  Many months, sometimes years!  

That said, if he is too cerebral for your liking in other ways - non-verbally expressive in general, not w/r/t your problems because I am of the opinion that you should not be burdening a new partner with your problems.

But rather too cerebral about life, the world, the state of humanity (if you enjoy discussing these things) then move on.

But re the deep emotional connection you desire, again this takes time, you cannot force it or push it.  

It's a slow build.  And I know of no couple who can achieve this type of deep connection without first developing trust for each other, a vulnerability and love. 

Unless I have misinterpreted your dilemma, you're putting the cart before the horse expecting this before a relationship develops, naturally and organically. 

 

Thank you poppyfields.  This is not a new relationship.  I have been seeing him on and off for about 3 years now.  It has been on and off because I feel the lack of understanding.  I have had so much to deal with recently (which I won't go into) and yet I do not feel I can turn to him.  I have felt very lonely during one of the hardest times of my life.  He is very much a person I can go out with and spend time in the outdoors with but more as an activity friend.  It has been more but that was when I thought we could develop a relationship and then the emotional intimacy just never really happened.  I have never been in a situation like this before.  It has only continued because he has wanted it to and contacted me to do things and go out, otherwise I would have let it fizzle out.  It sounds awful but I did not want to hurt him by letting him think we were compatible.

I think you are absolutely right about a relationship developing naturally and organically.  It seems to and then we come to a full stop if I try to talk to him about something that is bothering me, then I feel really brushed off.  So it is like a kind of weird stalemate.  Maybe we should just stick to being activity friends.  I no longer know what he wants and those kinds of conversations never seem appropriate when we meet.  I think he is avoiding them.

Edited March 23, 2021 by spiderowl

[spiderowl]

3 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

That's a nice idea, but I suspect it would take more than one book. This guy is probably going to have to become a counselor and have an epiphany to change.

 

Are we talking about a lover or a friend here? This is the dating forum.

 

It's a shame, but some people are not the best listeners and don't know how to treat people well.

 

I just witnessed this with a friend who was going through a breakup........she tried to talk to her lady friend about it but her lady friend got mad at her, called her crazy, and walked out on her. Sad. Of course she's emotional - she just got her heart busted up. Of course I listen to her and it's great therapy for her. But I'm a life coach and know exactly what to do. Pretty soon I'll end up being this woman's best friend. She looks like Meg Ryan.

 

I will also tell you women need to talk and need someone to listen - it's part of romance, and women crave it.

 

A man who is top catch is a great listener (among other things).

 

So, the bottom line is, this guy is weak in the romance department. And romance is one of the things that keeps a woman in love for the long haul (your love level is going down). 

 

He certainly won't be your best friend either.

Thanks for your insights Fletch Lives.  

We were lovers briefly and then have returned to being friends.  I did not put this in the Dating forum; it was moved here from Relationships by a Mod.

I don't expect him to be a counsellor but some sense of humanity and care would be good.  He is very much an activity person - think Tintin.  I do like that because we go out and do things, but just feel the gap in emotional communication.

I hadn't thought of it as part of romance necessarily, but I guess I do expect emotional intimacy as part of that.  I also listen to him, quite a lot, which is partly why I feel hurt when he doesn't listen to me and understand.  It seems very one-sided.  He doesn't talk about emotional things much, but when he does, I don't judge and I do listen and try to help.

You are right: he can't be my best friend because of the lack of emotional understanding.

You are all helping me enormously - thank you!

Edited March 23, 2021 by spiderowl

[basil67]

I'm going to focus my thoughts around the idea that he's a friend and not a boyfriend.

Different friends have different places in our lives, and not all friends have to meet all of our needs.  There's the adventure friend, the supportive friend, the party friend, the hobby friend, the sporting friend.  Some of them may deliver more than one facet to our lives, but no friend is everything.

This guy is your adventure friend.  Think of him as the guy you hang out with when you don't want to be dwelling on the issues in your life.  Appreciate him for what he does deliver, rather than be sad because he's not who you want him to be. 

[spiderowl]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

I'm going to focus my thoughts around the idea that he's a friend and not a boyfriend.

Different friends have different places in our lives, and not all friends have to meet all of our needs.  There's the adventure friend, the supportive friend, the party friend, the hobby friend, the sporting friend.  Some of them may deliver more than one facet to our lives, but no friend is everything.

This guy is your adventure friend.  Think of him as the guy you hang out with when you don't want to be dwelling on the issues in your life.  Appreciate him for what he does deliver, rather than be sad because he's not who you want him to be. 

I try to think of it like that basil.  I think he wants more, a proper relationship.  I cannot see that working, that's the problem.  It makes me sad because I find him attractive (which is rare for me) and he is fun to be with.  It's just this missing aspect.  I guess we will have to stay just as friends but it's incredibly confusing.

[Miss Peach]

A lot of my male friend eventually figured this out with age. Women tend to want to verbalize things and be heard. Men tend to want to fix things and provide solutions. So I wouldn't have it be a deal breaker at this point. But I would tell him before you tell him the issue that to solve the problem you just need to feel heard by him; not solutions per se. For some guys who didn't get the differences in male/female communication this was really helpful for them and they were happy to 'fix' the problem that way. A lot of men out there just don't realize that's what a woman wants and what will make her feel better.

 

As to the people who say a man shouldn't be your therapist, I believe that's true to some extent but if I'm seriously involved with someone I want to be able to share all parts of my life with them. I don't have to go on and on like I would with my girlfriends but I should be able to let them into my inner world and they should be able to let me into theirs.

 

To say that much, I have had one ex that no matter what I told him he didn't see to be that concerned. I was being stalked and nearly assaulted at work at the time. So this was a huge red flag I would tell him about my day and get back something other than outrage. If this is the case other than making it really clear you just need to vent and have them listen, then I would move on.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Miss Peach

[basil67]

If he wants more than friends, you might consider whether or not it's fair to hold him close as 'just friends'.   Honestly, if you've got no intention of giving him what he wants, it might be kinder to end it properly.    If you don't, it's likely one day he's going to (fairly or unfairly) have an epiphany that it's never going to be a thing and get mad about feeling like you've stung him along.

[dramafreezone]

On 3/22/2021 at 11:09 AM, spiderowl said:

I'm struggling with a 'relationship' with this guy.  I am not sure how to deal with some issues that have arisen.  They seem obvious problems to me but apparently not to him.

The main problem is that I cannot talk to him about any problems that I have.  It is as if he immediately needs to tell me what to do (basically I should try harder or push through it) or he changes the subject.  From my point of view, if this is a romantic relationship then we should be able to share and try to understand each other.  I don't expect him to be my therapist but to try to understand and sometimes sympathise.  He doesn't seem to be able to think like that.

 

 

Many guys don't think like that.  This is not a problem that is due to your boyfriend not understanding you specifically.  It's just that I think men and women generally work through their problems differently.  Get ready, I'm about to make some generalizations. 

I think the majority of women like a sounding board to talk through their issues as a means of alleviating their distress.  I've come to learn that most times women don't want the guy to solve their problems (as you've expressed), but just to listen and sympathize.  Sometimes women do want help to solve their issues.  If I'm in doubt I'll just ask "do you want my opinion or do you want me to listen?"  Guys (not all guys, but the majority) prefer to be alone, retreat to their man cave to figure out how to solve their issue and proceed forward with a plan that way. 

Most guys are going to try to solve your issue for you, because that's what they think you want.  That's just our nature, we're fixers.  Most guys have this blind spot, so I think it would be a huge mistake to dump him over this.  Help him out, just tell him that you don't need him to solve your issues, you justt need him to listen.  Tell him that this is how you work through your own issues yourself.  This is something I learned only through talking with guys with a lot more experience with women than I've had.

So from here on out, you understand how he thinks (at least in regards to working through issues).  Now help him understand how you think.  Guys aren't born knowing this stuff about women.

Edited March 23, 2021 by dramafreezone

[spiderowl]

Thanks for all your comments.  It has made me think.  

He is the one who has pursued this relationship.  I have given up on it several times.  

I guess he is just very unilateral and I have to accept that or not.  It seems a shame to give up because of this but it makes me feel very lonely.  One should not feel lonely with a partner.

 

[Miss Spider]

It sounds like a type of incompatibility, spiderowl. And one of this kind, like how a couple consoles each other and helps them through each other’s problems, can be a big one for a lot of people, because they like to feel supported and understood by their  partner. Ps. I don’t buy the whole “men like to solve problems” thing at least to the extent it’s often sold. I mean, I’ve known a lot of men who like to talk about problems & feelings to death & I have women friends who are like “just do this, this, this” I think it’s mostly about compassion, empathy, and just how they  they cope with others problems. 

[neowulf]

4 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

So from here on out, you understand how he thinks (at least in regards to working through issues).  Now help him understand how you think.  Guys aren't born knowing this stuff about women.

I kind of got the impression from the OP that it was more that her partner wasn't particularly in tune with his emotions or expressing them.
Perhaps it's something he could choose to work on, but I'm a big believer in accepting people as they are.

For example, before meeting my partner, I wasn't much of a hugger.  We never really hug much in my family, but since meeting her,  I've found that I really enjoy being able to express that care through touch.  That wasn't something she pushed me for, it was something intrinsic in me that responded to it.

I know other people who would have been the exact opposite.  They don't like physical displays of affection and never will.  It's not how they're wired and attempting to get them to become more that way only causes them stress.  

The OP will have to figure out which one of these things her partner is, though I do admit, going three years without really defining the relationship is a whole different set of problems.  The guy may be maintaining some emotional distance for his own sanity.

Edited March 24, 2021 by neowulf

[chillii]

12 hours ago, spiderowl said:

Thank you poppyfields.  This is not a new relationship.  I have been seeing him on and off for about 3 years now.  It has been on and off because I feel the lack of understanding.  I have had so much to deal with recently (which I won't go into) and yet I do not feel I can turn to him.  I have felt very lonely during one of the hardest times of my life.  He is very much a person I can go out with and spend time in the outdoors with but more as an activity friend.  It has been more but that was when I thought we could develop a relationship and then the emotional intimacy just never really happened.  I have never been in a situation like this before.  It has only continued because he has wanted it to and contacted me to do things and go out, otherwise I would have let it fizzle out.  It sounds awful but I did not want to hurt him by letting him think we were compatible.

I think you are absolutely right about a relationship developing naturally and organically.  It seems to and then we come to a full stop if I try to talk to him about something that is bothering me, then I feel really brushed off.  So it is like a kind of weird stalemate.  Maybe we should just stick to being activity friends.  I no longer know what he wants and those kinds of conversations never seem appropriate when we meet.  I think he is avoiding them.

 

Tbh , you don't sound even remotely close enough in any real way in 3 yrs for it to be anything serious plus all the on off. Did you only want something light and casual or are you looking to settle down marry and on or ? lf you do then your feelings were spot on in just being friends sounds like he wants a bit more but not more enough to ever be anything real or close to a marriage thing. Your really doing the right thing freeing yourself of this if you do want more.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by chillii