why my affair was toxic, MW with MM

[IfWishesWereFishes]

Thank you for your compassion @thewoomensay  and yes there were many things that happened before I met xMM, breaking points. He was my salve in a way and I was his. Healthy, no. Hurtful, yes. Immoral, yes. Insanity, possibly. Human, yes. Forgivable, not sure. Only time and work will tell. At the end of the day, affairs aren't really all that simple, often not at all what people think them to be. 

[mark clemson]

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I find it strange how it's (seemingly) always the MM "using", getting what he wants, and "manipulating" in these stories.

I think the "using" is mutual, to at least some extent as is the "getting what you want" at least at first (and who really gets EVERYTHING they want in either a marriage or an affair). And women AP's don't manipulate in their own ways? Not sure I buy that either.

The feelings weren't real? Maybe they were, maybe they weren't who knows. Sometimes I think that part is all lies, sometimes not. The women APs in this thread seem (from the tenor of the posts) to be quite bright. I think eyes were open to what they were doing/participating in. (Certainly the should have been.) Maybe what was "lived and learned" was that (as per Elaine567) "affairs frequently have big stings in their tails." (And that often goes for many of the MMs too.)

At any rate:

 

On 3/10/2021 at 12:27 PM, IfWishesWereFishes said:

 He was my salve in a way and I was his.

This seems more honest.

 

What does stand out to me, at least in the subset of stories where it occurs, is the serious future faking, promises to leave. I think the guy MAY be very unhappy at times, so may mean it at some level, but divorcing is serious business and one certainly doesn't need a new romantic partner to start divorcing, in fact if one is serious it's probably a distraction.

Anyhow, just my two cents on this.

[DKT3]

I think women tend to change the parameters mid-affair.  Most MW/OW go in fully aware of the situation,  then they want more, just because the MM didn't or doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean all of a sudden he is "THE" user or manipulator. 

Its really understandable in many situations because women tend to give more of themselves in romantic relationships.  They usually make more effort to maintain and sustain affairs,  let's be honest they sacrifice more, they have a higher price to pay....not to say its not thier fault.

[Soul-shards]

6 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

I think women tend to change the parameters mid-affair.  Most MW/OW go in fully aware of the situation,  then they want more, just because the MM didn't or doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean all of a sudden he is "THE" user or manipulator. 

Its really understandable in many situations because women tend to give more of themselves in romantic relationships.  They usually make more effort to maintain and sustain affairs,  let's be honest they sacrifice more, they have a higher price to pay....not to say its not thier fault.

I second this.

[IfWishesWereFishes]

You're all too nice... nothing harsh in any of the above posts at all.

I don't think my xMM manipulated me and I didn't manipulate him. We liked being together, first in friendship then as lovers. We fulfilled for each other what we lacked in our marriages which was companionship, emotional intimacy, and physical intimacy. He made me feel loved, desired, and happy when I was really in a bad place. And I was for him his companion and lover and at several points, also a possible escape route out of his marriage.  We went into this fully aware we were married people. It's impossible to be a victim of an affair.  The part of the affair that was unexpected was the intensity and toxicity caused by the chemicals on the brain, the trauma bonding from not being able to move towards any resolution of commitment, and the pain of unrequited love. The toxic manifestations of the affair relationship are not intentionally created out of malice.

To reiterate,  I had no blinders on. I was not fooled into having a relationship with him and I did not fool him into being with me. We made our lives better for each other initially, and not a thought was given to our betrayed spouses - this is the selfishness or maybe even a subconscious desire to hurt our spouses. In this manner, we were extremely selfish and self-serving. We lacked self-awareness and lacked an ability to confront things within ourselves and our own marriages. We were both exceedingly unhappy and stressed and have terrible coping mechanisms. We both decided to "outsource"  our emotional intimacy, our companionship needs, our physical intimacy to each other instead of fixing things anymore within our marriages. We had both given up on our marriages. We were also strongly attracted to each other on every level that I can't even begin to explain. So, yeah, don't feel sorry for WW/WH.  Though we were not self-aware, we went in fully aware that we are doing something wrong. We go in fully aware that we have stepped outside our marriages. No victims here. People don't just fall into v4g1n4s and fall onto d1cks. Which, is why, I do wonder why any betrayed spouse would even want to work things out with their wayward spouse. How is that possible? 

 

 

[mark clemson]

On 3/11/2021 at 11:02 PM, IfWishesWereFishes said:

We made our lives better for each other initially, and not a thought was given to our betrayed spouses - this is the selfishness or maybe even a subconscious desire to hurt our spouses. In this manner, we were extremely selfish and self-serving. We lacked self-awareness and lacked an ability to confront things within ourselves and our own marriages. We were both exceedingly unhappy and stressed and have terrible coping mechanisms. We both decided to "outsource"  our emotional intimacy, our companionship needs, our physical intimacy to each other instead of fixing things anymore within our marriages. We had both given up on our marriages.

While I don't entirely disagree with many of your points - not a thought was given? Really?

If you really didn't care how your spouses felt why didn't you OPENLY cheat, tell your spouses about the affair, shack up together, and flip them off on your way out the door?

One can argue the nuances, but in the end if your spouse wants you there, then leaving is selfish too and there are more and less selfish (and/or inconsiderate or cruel) ways to leave.

JMO but a certain amount of the above sounds like a sort of emotional self-flagellation. Oh, how horrible I was! Certainly what you did was dishonest and unethical. Guess what, you literally can't walk into a grocery store without experiencing dishonesty and poor ethics. From the layout of the store, to the oversized and/or minimally differentiated packaging to the psychological manipulation of price vs. package sizing (and probably plenty of other ways that I'm not even aware of).

In reality, humans generally are not particularly ethical creatures and we tend to fall short of our aspirations. That is common and people who don't cheat on their spouses may be doing all sorts of other things that one might find fault with, such as being tax cheats or lying to their boss about time off, etc. Often times hypocrisies and double-standards are ingrained enough to be unconscious.

At any rate, if you feel a lot of guilt and need to "beat yourself up" a bit to help assuage it, there's nothing inherently wrong with that (IMO) so long as it's kept to reasonable limits. However, since you mention self-awareness in your post, you might as well be self-aware about that too.