Deception and Trust in a Relationship

[Savioursolo]

Hello All,

I wanted to ask what do you perceive as a deception from a partner in a relationship? By deception I mean when your partner has been hiding things from you and has been secretive over things that could potentially harm your relationship? Usually things that he potentially need to be straight forward with you in order to keep harmony in a relationship and avoid creating trust issues.

Also, what would you consider to be a justified deception from your partner - for example the reason that him/her had to be secretive about a certain topic or how he spends his time because the were afraid of judgement, negative reaction, afraid that their partner could get angry when heard the truth?

Or deception is not justifiable under any circumstances? Sometimes it is not easy to see it this way because you try your best to understand your partner and see the reasons behind their behavior and if there was something that you might have done that made them take decision to keep things in secret to keep things safe.

I am trying to understand the dynamic that causes the deception in the first place, for example partner is afraid to share certain information because knows it will be unwelcome and is afraid to be judged and made feel guilty, therefore I assume doesn't trust that their other half can handle the information in a positive way. Truth comes up sooner or later, and the deceived partner feels distrust towards their partner who kept things hidden, the trust crumbles more from from both sides creating divide in the relationship.

Trust is built from both ends, but sometimes trust issues can start in a way that is not evident. Please share your thoughts in regards if you feel to do so Thanks

Edited January 28, 2021 by Savioursolo

[Wiseman2]

There's a vast difference between privacy and gaslighting.

If you feel important information is omitted or you are fed a diet of lies, misinformation, halftruths, bs,etc. Then you need to end it.

If someone doesn't want to discuss what you want to discuss with regard to thier private lives, then better boundaries are in order.

So which is it that's happening for you? Systemic BS or you just want to know more?

[Savioursolo]

15 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

There's a vast difference between privacy and gaslighting.

If you feel important information is omitted or you are fed a diet of lies, misinformation, halftruths, bs,etc. Then you need to end it.

If someone doesn't want to discuss what you want to discuss with regard to thier private lives, then better boundaries are in order.

So which is it that's happening for you? Systemic BS or you just want to know more?

I just want to know more, and understand what causes people to be secretive in the first place and if under certain circumstances it can be justified or not at all. Thanks

[josedelamuerte]

Nobody talks about everything with everyone. That's not being secretive. It's just them managing their interactions in a way that best serves them.

You just have to trust your partner that he's not withholding information that may concern you. If you can't trust him, figure out why.

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, Savioursolo said:

I just want to know more, and understand what causes people to be secretive in the first place 

Define "secretive". It depends also on the relationship. Knowing a spouses finances is different than asking a neighbor what their income is.

What is the actual question? Ironically your topic is rather cryptic or secretive.🤔

Edited January 29, 2021 by Wiseman2

[mark clemson]

IMO some things that might bother the other person and/or cause substantial friction but ultimately don't really matter much are best left alone. Examples might include - what you really think of some relative of theirs, dissatisfaction with things that they really can't do too much to change, such as slow career progress in a bad economy or the necessity to travel for work, what you or they might fantasize about when you masturbate, etc, etc. There are plenty of things for which "total transparency" doesn't really do anything useful but does harm the relationship.

The risk is that eventually these issues being revealed might cause problems. We had a poster here who was proudly proclaiming how her husband never masturbated. Turned out (unsurprisingly) he did. Doubt it did too much harm for her to find out, just a bit of a let down. Then there are times when somewhat finds out their partner has a much higher "count" of prior partners than believed. Depending on their views and/or insecurities finding that out can be no big deal, a substantial hit to trust, or even a deal breaker. Of course, despite any "high count" your partner has chosen you. But some don't or can't see it that way and still have difficulties with this.

[SumGuy]

On 1/28/2021 at 8:12 AM, Savioursolo said:

...

I am trying to understand the dynamic that causes the deception in the first place, for example partner is afraid to share certain information because knows it will be unwelcome and is afraid to be judged and made feel guilty, therefore I assume doesn't trust that their other half can handle the information in a positive way. Truth comes up sooner or later, and the deceived partner feels distrust towards their partner who kept things hidden, the trust crumbles more from from both sides creating divide in the relationship.

Trust is built from both ends, but sometimes trust issues can start in a way that is not evident. Please share your thoughts in regards if you feel to do so Thanks

It really, really, really depends on what it is. 

Having been judged and subject to prejudice in my life, from a young age even, many things I can certainly understand someone not volunteering until they have a better sense for the other person...really just to avoid the BS.  It's not a great strategy though, best to be yourself I have learned instead of hoping that once someone gets to know you any prejudices they have will disappear.   Now I have dated women who have done this, and in every case it has been something that I don't judge on but plenty do, so get where they are coming from.  It is not so much I feel deceived, but more that they didn't trust me to accept them.  I certainly don't expect to hear such things though before say 6 months or so, so also not surprised or offended if things don't come out until we have been seeing each other a while.

[littleblackheart]

On 28/01/2021 at 1:12 PM, Savioursolo said:

Truth comes up sooner or later, and the deceived partner feels distrust towards their partner who kept things hidden, the trust crumbles more from from both sides creating divide in the relationship.

To me a deception I would not be able to move past would be about values, sets of beliefs or personality traits they would have pretended to have to attract you that you come to realise upon getting to know them were not genuine.

It wouldn't necessarily be something about their past or a hobby they have kept hidden. Besides, you only ever know what your partner is willing to share with you; the more they share, the better, though trust can take a long time to build, especially later in life. The most important thing is that all communication is genuine; I'll take trial and error over being disingenuous.

[ShyViolet]

Lying is not ok in a relationship, even if it's about small, stupid things.  You can't be in a serious relationship with someone if you're not an open book.

[Gaeta]

So what's the back story here? Boyfriend keeps in touch with ex? Or a female friend?

I don't expext a boyfriend to tell me every little bit of his private matters but if l ask a question l want to be answered the truth. 

I beleive in honesty but l don't beleive in telling my life story in full details to my partner. 

[Savioursolo]

On 1/29/2021 at 12:43 PM, Wiseman2 said:

Define "secretive". It depends also on the relationship. Knowing a spouses finances is different than asking a neighbor what their income is.

What is the actual question? Ironically your topic is rather cryptic or secretive.🤔

I guess my question wasn't straight to the point :P  I believe in some cases it is not necessary to know everything about the spouses finances, but I got what you mean. Secretive in my case  is when partner didn't tell me who was he spending time with, but was only direct about it 1 out of 10 times. For me is holding information back because it suited him and because he was afraid of my reaction as if he knew in advance that he did something he wasn't supposed to be doing. Things like this are subtle but can be a problem. Personally, I don't expect him to share everything with me, but I would normally say who am I with if I am going out and about, I think it is a normal thing. But I am trying to keep an open mind and see if this can be justified because he was afraid me reacting with judgement on how he spends his time. Thanks again :)

[Savioursolo]

On 1/29/2021 at 5:41 PM, mark clemson said:

IMO some things that might bother the other person and/or cause substantial friction but ultimately don't really matter much are best left alone. Examples might include - what you really think of some relative of theirs, dissatisfaction with things that they really can't do too much to change, such as slow career progress in a bad economy or the necessity to travel for work, what you or they might fantasize about when you masturbate, etc, etc. There are plenty of things for which "total transparency" doesn't really do anything useful but does harm the relationship.

The risk is that eventually these issues being revealed might cause problems. We had a poster here who was proudly proclaiming how her husband never masturbated. Turned out (unsurprisingly) he did. Doubt it did too much harm for her to find out, just a bit of a let down. Then there are times when somewhat finds out their partner has a much higher "count" of prior partners than believed. Depending on their views and/or insecurities finding that out can be no big deal, a substantial hit to trust, or even a deal breaker. Of course, despite any "high count" your partner has chosen you. But some don't or can't see it that way and still have difficulties with this.

I agree on this, you can't be transparent and honestly speak your mind in relationship about these matters, they can cause problems. I think it is great if people can include all the positives in a relationship  and their partners positive actions, which can potentially outweight the negative detail/fact that was hidden. Thanks :)

[Savioursolo]

On 1/29/2021 at 5:42 PM, SumGuy said:

It really, really, really depends on what it is. 

Having been judged and subject to prejudice in my life, from a young age even, many things I can certainly understand someone not volunteering until they have a better sense for the other person...really just to avoid the BS.  It's not a great strategy though, best to be yourself I have learned instead of hoping that once someone gets to know you any prejudices they have will disappear.   Now I have dated women who have done this, and in every case it has been something that I don't judge on but plenty do, so get where they are coming from.  It is not so much I feel deceived, but more that they didn't trust me to accept them.  I certainly don't expect to hear such things though before say 6 months or so, so also not surprised or offended if things don't come out until we have been seeing each other a while.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I also believe that how people were treated by parents in the childhood can have a great impact on how people act in their relationships. Especially if their actions were harshly judged by their parents and criticised. I understand what you mean by saying that you don't feel trusted if partner not being honest, it is not a nice feeling ... I think it creates a circle of mistrust between parties? For example, I didn't tell you xyz because thought it would create bad impression, then the other person feels lack of trust bc the information was held back from them, they feel that the other person can not be trusted and that they are untrustworthy ....

[Savioursolo]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:01 PM, littleblackheart said:

To me a deception I would not be able to move past would be about values, sets of beliefs or personality traits they would have pretended to have to attract you that you come to realise upon getting to know them were not genuine.

It wouldn't necessarily be something about their past or a hobby they have kept hidden. Besides, you only ever know what your partner is willing to share with you; the more they share, the better, though trust can take a long time to build, especially later in life. The most important thing is that all communication is genuine; I'll take trial and error over being disingenuous.

Totally agree. The more they share, the better. Obviously you can share things over time and not drop everything in one go. But holding back BIG information like children from past marriages etc just to get you, is a red flag. Do you mean that trust takes long time to build later in life as an age of the person or the longer you are in a relationship?

[Savioursolo]

On 1/30/2021 at 5:04 AM, Gaeta said:

So what's the back story here? Boyfriend keeps in touch with ex? Or a female friend?

I don't expext a boyfriend to tell me every little bit of his private matters but if l ask a question l want to be answered the truth. 

I beleive in honesty but l don't beleive in telling my life story in full details to my partner. 

Technically  you can't say everything in detail about your life to your partner and I also think it is not necessary. Back story is that my BF was telling me 1 time out of 10 that he was spending time with his female friend for almost a year ( no physical cheating 100% ) but emotional affair from what I see it. He cut her off now and admitted his mistakes without protesting. It just suited him not to tell me about their interactions. His excuse that he was afraid to be judged by my reaction, it doesn't really cut it for me and I personally don't think it is justifiable. But I try to keep an open mind and get an opinion about the topic about deception in general. Thank you.

[understand50]

OK, like all things in life it depends.

Casual dating, I would  not expect to know everything.  Getting married, would need to know more.  In marriage, with cheating, ether financial or sexual, Lots more.  In reconciliation, can not and will not,  stand for  any deception.   Should get better over time, but one needs to rebuild trust. 

In deception, I do not mean the white lies we all tell to get along.  I mean, deception about major financial and sexual matters.  You can add health issues as well.  If you both are going to function as a team, then there must be candor between both. 

I wish you luck.

 

 

[Versacehottie]

The thing is that most people don't like being monitored.  It's a poor substitute for trust and usually means trust isn't there at all.  It's definitely a form of control.  So they take the behavior that they are being monitored on underground.  Often other things too, just because they don't like being controlled and the real connection is hanging on by a thread.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they ARE or ARE NOT doing the "wrong" thing.  They may be; they may not be.  Whenever I see stuff like this it's usually as much from (or more so) coming from the side of the person who is "monitoring" and suspicious.  They have a tendency to filter everything they see through this lens and get super convinced that they are right BUT won't let go of the relationship.  To me, once you've hit the point where you don't trust someone and feel the need to monitor them, it's already done.  Plus they are often discounting by a lot the ROLE their own insecurity and way they feel assured has impacted the relationship (nothing happens in a bubble; and this monitoring behavior tends to drive people away).  It's possessive to be honest.  My question would be is if you must live like this where you don't trust the other person: let them go.  You are on a long drawn out process to that anyway.

If it is 100% the other person being dishonest, then it's their character and the same end result is valid: let them go; "why would you want to be with someone like that anyway?"

If we are talking about someone having contact with an ex, I suppose there are levels of which it's ok/not ok IMO.  A little contact that came about by chance is significantly different than the other end of the spectrum.  You have to check in with your own core values about it and see if they align.  I'm going to guess from the fact that you made this thread and the fact that your person is doing the behavior and taking it underground, you two don't have the same core values about it; are not align; and worse can't even talk about it (not great communication).

I 100% agree with wiseman that it was like pulling teeth and very vague the way you were dancing around the real question.  You aren't even really upfront about it when you finally came out with it.  I can imagine for your partner that this ALSO feels like you are hiding something, snooping around on them; have an agenda.  Not a good feeling.   My advice is to spit it out to your partner and communicate directly with them.  If you are looking to poll this group to get answers on the morality of something, purely through only one side presented vaguely, you won't get very far.  And it won't matter anyway--all that matters is what you and your partner can agree upon. I suspect that this part is already in freefall.  Sorry.  Good luck

Edited January 31, 2021 by Versacehottie

[SumGuy]

43 minutes ago, Savioursolo said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. I also believe that how people were treated by parents in the childhood can have a great impact on how people act in their relationships. Especially if their actions were harshly judged by their parents and criticised. I understand what you mean by saying that you don't feel trusted if partner not being honest, it is not a nice feeling ... I think it creates a circle of mistrust between parties? For example, I didn't tell you xyz because thought it would create bad impression, then the other person feels lack of trust bc the information was held back from them, they feel that the other person can not be trusted and that they are untrustworthy ....

Luckily for me never had that issue with my parents , maybe the opposite

As to creating a lasting bad impression, well that is on the people.   It's OK to have those feelings but not to hold on to them, especially  to the extent they damage the relationship.  Trust is earned...it can take time.  So yes I can be saddened they didn't trust me, but I can also have empathy and put myself in their shoes to not let it tarnish how I think of them.  After all they are being only human just like me.  If one gets all bent out of shape that they didn't trust you...they are going to trust you even less going forward. 

What works is understanding, working to understand why they didn't tell you, and really being able to convey you do.  Trust requires some vulnerability, so they need to feel safe that you may be "upset" but you still affirm them and do not begrudge, belittle or look down on them for their emotions or vulnerability.    

Going a bit afield here...on the latter is why many men have known in my life hold back on sharing.   It is not uncommon for a woman to say, be vulnerable and share, but when he does he better not go too far outside the man-box she has in her head or she looks down on him, loses respect.  There is a a whole slew of things have heard that on paper should be no problem, but in reality...they are.  My solution to that problem though is to avoid those women  

[littleblackheart]

1 hour ago, Savioursolo said:

Do you mean that trust takes long time to build later in life as an age of the person or the longer you are in a relationship?

I meant later in life, yes. If you've managed to get rid of all the emotional baggage from past relationships, I think (I hope!) building trust in later relationships becomes easier even if it takes longer (as it should) because you are better prepared for the pitfalls, and you are more understanding. You have lived more, learned the errors of your ways, are hopefully wiser, know what you want and accept.

My exH lied about his whole story just to 'get' me, because I was his 'type'. I didn't realise until too late that most of the things he said about himself was either false or a version of the truth. I left as soon as I could though can't complain as I got the best 2 kids in the bargain. Didn't learn that particular mistake fast enough and went on to repeat it almost identically (I'm a slow learner!).

I still have trust in my own abilities to pick the right partner for me, but I know it's my issue to work on. I would like my next relationship to be simple, plain sailing, based on trust, kindness and genuine respect, as we all do I guess. I don't care that we have different hobbies, that we don't agree on everything, that they have a sketchy past as long as they were able to overcome and share it with me with no bitterness or remorse. I just want whatever I learn about them to be the real deal in terms of values, beliefs and character. That's what matters to me.

I can't say whether I'd be ok with an affair, emotional or otherwise. My exH cheated but it was really not the worst thing he'd done so that would have been the easiest thing for me to move past. 

But you can move past most everything when there is genuine intent to fix this both ways, I really believe.

Edited January 31, 2021 by littleblackheart

[josedelamuerte]

1 hour ago, Savioursolo said:

he was afraid of my reaction as if he knew in advance that he did something he wasn't supposed to be doing.

He wasn't telling you about it not because he thought he was doing something wrong, but because he thought you'd freak out. Turns out he was right.

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, Savioursolo said:

Technically  you can't say everything in detail about your life to your partner and I also think it is not necessary. Back story is that my BF was telling me 1 time out of 10 that he was spending time with his female friend for almost a year ( no physical cheating 100% ) but emotional affair from what I see it. He cut her off now and admitted his mistakes without protesting. It just suited him not to tell me about their interactions. His excuse that he was afraid to be judged by my reaction, it doesn't really cut it for me and I personally don't think it is justifiable. But I try to keep an open mind and get an opinion about the topic about deception in general. Thank you.

Personally, can see where he is coming from...can see where you are coming from depending on what for you means "emotional affair."  Emotional support from a female friend, even asking her advice about relationships dose not equal emotional affair to me.  Emotional affair means exchanging messages about wanting to be physical with them, how you think of them n a romantic sense, overly dwelling on past good times, etc.  Him saying something like she is his best friend, although yah can see it hurts, is not emotional affair territory in my book.

I get if she was a past lover, that it is harder to believe they are just friends.  Yet if they have always been just friends, can especially see why he did what he did if you ever gave the indication that you doubted that just friends is possible.   This dovetails into other threads where people wonder if there can really be such platonic relationships, it is hard to convince those who think not despite personally having had (and having) platonic friendships with women and even past lovers.

So the details matter for me in this situation.  If it was an emotional affair as I define it, yah a problem for me... if not then not a problem for me and would be understanding that I never intend my partners to drop their friends based on their gender when they see me.  

[dramafreezone]

Really kind of a broad topic.

Lying, through omission or outright speaking falsehoods, is a huge red flag.  I guess "hiding" is lying from ommission, as in something that they should be able to see but you are obstructing them from learning about it.

Otherwise, no one is obligated to let you know every detail of their life.  Everyone has their secrets and it's not always useful to let even our loved ones know them.  I know I have secrets that I will probably never tell anyone.

[littleblackheart]

3 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

 And it won't matter anyway--all that matters is what you and your partner can agree upon.

Totally agree with this. Some couples can move past things others can't. Even if it's nice to share and listen to other personal stories so as to have different perspectives, ultimately each couple's threshold of trust and deception is their own. Some couples overcome events others would find difficult to do, and some split up for what seems like trivial reasons to others.

You don't have to tell your partner everything but when they do ask, tell them the truth. 

When you've established a bond that allows both partners to be vulnerable without judgement is whe  you hit the jackpot. Sometimes it comes naturally, sometimes it needs a bit of give and take; when the foundations are solid and healthy, a couple should be able to overcome anything, because they would do their upmost not to deceive each other in the first place.

[Savioursolo]

On 1/31/2021 at 4:42 PM, Versacehottie said:

The thing is that most people don't like being monitored.  It's a poor substitute for trust and usually means trust isn't there at all.  It's definitely a form of control.  So they take the behavior that they are being monitored on underground.  Often other things too, just because they don't like being controlled and the real connection is hanging on by a thread.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they ARE or ARE NOT doing the "wrong" thing.  They may be; they may not be.  Whenever I see stuff like this it's usually as much from (or more so) coming from the side of the person who is "monitoring" and suspicious.  They have a tendency to filter everything they see through this lens and get super convinced that they are right BUT won't let go of the relationship.  To me, once you've hit the point where you don't trust someone and feel the need to monitor them, it's already done.  Plus they are often discounting by a lot the ROLE their own insecurity and way they feel assured has impacted the relationship (nothing happens in a bubble; and this monitoring behavior tends to drive people away).  It's possessive to be honest.  My question would be is if you must live like this where you don't trust the other person: let them go.  You are on a long drawn out process to that anyway.

If it is 100% the other person being dishonest, then it's their character and the same end result is valid: let them go; "why would you want to be with someone like that anyway?"

If we are talking about someone having contact with an ex, I suppose there are levels of which it's ok/not ok IMO.  A little contact that came about by chance is significantly different than the other end of the spectrum.  You have to check in with your own core values about it and see if they align.  I'm going to guess from the fact that you made this thread and the fact that your person is doing the behavior and taking it underground, you two don't have the same core values about it; are not align; and worse can't even talk about it (not great communication).

I 100% agree with wiseman that it was like pulling teeth and very vague the way you were dancing around the real question.  You aren't even really upfront about it when you finally came out with it.  I can imagine for your partner that this ALSO feels like you are hiding something, snooping around on them; have an agenda.  Not a good feeling.   My advice is to spit it out to your partner and communicate directly with them.  If you are looking to poll this group to get answers on the morality of something, purely through only one side presented vaguely, you won't get very far.  And it won't matter anyway--all that matters is what you and your partner can agree upon. I suspect that this part is already in freefall.  Sorry.  Good luck

Thank you for taking time to write your reply. Don't say sorry, I  really appreciate it. I agree that I made a broad question, but getting answers from people helped me to realise something important and also helped me to clarify and get to the point of my issue. Therefore I am really grateful :) Thanks!