artnoveau Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 I have started dating this guy. Well, dating in times of covid means that we are either at his place or mine, so we got intimate pretty quickly. The first two dates were perfect. We got along great, talking, cuddling, getting sexual. Apparently he really likes sex with me. On the second date it already became obvious that he has some issues. He kept talking how he didn't sleep well, hadn't eaten at all until I arrived. But he seemed very comfortable while I was there. I get insecure easily though, due to past experiences. So A few days after the date I asked if his issues were related to me somehow and if we should talk. He said no and mentioned that he feels at ease around me, which I believe to be true. Around the same time though he stopped being sexual in messages and whenever I wrote that I would really like to be with him and cuddle right now, he replied that this would indeed be great, but I somehow couldn't believe him. We were meant to see each other on Tuesday with me sleeping over for the first time and 90minutes before the date he cancels, saying that he had gotten some bad news that day and wanted to spent the evening alone. I was understanding and offered up other days to meet, of which he took the latest option. By this point I was incredibly insecure and I think he could notice throughout the following days whenever I was writing. Over all he still writes often, he answers (though taking some time), but he has stopped expressing sexual desires and doesn't seem excited about meeting anymore. I did inquire about his sudden cancelation last Tuesday and outright told him that I have been hurt by people who were incapable of expressing when they lose interest in meeting me. And he answered that he had made similar experiences and thus intents to be honest and outright about things. We had rescheduled our date to Saturday - this time no sleep over, as I'm on my period and that is not how I want my first sleep over to be. On Friday I proposed he'd come over at 3pm. We have a nationwide curfew starting at 8pm and the last two dates were at 3pm too, with me leaving at 7.30pm to get home. And we were never bored or tired of each others company before. He replied that he'd prefer 5/6pm, upon which I pointed out that that wouldn't leave much time if he had to leave at 7.30. He replied that due to a new regulation spouses in our area were allowed to travel home or their s.o.'s place after 8pm. So I agreed to 5/6pm. Since I believed he'd stay beyond 8pm I told him that there was free parking nearby from 6pm on and he arrived shortly after. About 15min into our date he told me, that he would be leaving at 7.30pm anyway. Said he wasn't sure when the regulation started and so on. I downright asked if there was any reason he didn't want to be here. He said there wasn't. (Which I don't believe anymore, he might not have worked through it consciously, but he clearly didn't want to be there.) But he gave me no chance to talk this out on any level. Just said we could meet again. So I was asking for a date for next week. He made that "I don't really have much time" sound, but then offered up several evenings - begrudgingly, I'd say. We spent the rest of the time talking with my head in his lap. About five to ten minutes before he was due to leave I got a bit sexual, with kissing and so on. But he said he had to leave. He asked if he could bring his glass into the kitchen, just to get out of my room and have an opportunity to leave. I had literally begged for him to stay for five more minutes, but he said it was way too late. I let him leave and once he was gone I noticed that it was 20min to 8pm and he'd take no more than ten to get home. So I feel like there was time. We have settled on meeting again Monday evening with me staying over, but I am pretty sure he will cancel. He has not written me since he left last night I know he felt uncomfortable, at least at the end. I'm just so emotionally upset and scared of being dumped/rejected. But that's why I kept asking so directly if he was not interested anymore. I hate that he wouldn't just rip off the bandaid for me and him, because this is so very upsetting. I'm not sure how much of this is due to my insecurities and him noticing, but I'm sure that there is stuff going on on his side too. And either he is not communicating what is going on or isn't even aware about how he is feeling. And I'm unhappy with my life as it is - Corona is keeping me from every activity that is keeping me sane and I had to move 600km to this area due to study/work and have no really close friends nearby. My life is all work here, I feel isolated socially. Not because I haven't made an effort or I don't have any friends, but because people are so different here and I just don't fit. I just want the option to sleep over at one of my best friend's places, talk to them, feel like all of this matters less and that I have people who love and support me and that's okay if this thing with this guy doesn't work out, because I'm loved anyway and have a good outlook on life. I have tried to move back to my home place, but with my ongoing education, rising rents in my home city and the fact that jobs are not really advertised in advance, but looking for staff "to start right away" there is no way to tell if and when I can move back home. But to be honest - even at home dating didn't go well for me and I would still be very sensitive to and scared of rejection. It's something I really want to work on, but don't know how. I know why I am this way, but I don't know how to deal with it. And most of the time I just decided I don't want a partner at all, but that never lasts for more than a year, depending on how much I've been hurt before.
Wiseman2 Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 9 minutes ago, artnoveau said: . He kept talking how he didn't sleep well, hadn't eaten at all I'm just so emotionally upset and scared of being dumped/rejected. But that's why I kept asking so directly if he was not interested anymore Sorry this is happening. You have good insight into your dismay. It seems like you are homesick and miss your friends and family. This warning he started out with seems like a red flag. No one likes rejection. However, you're creating a vicious circle with clinginess and insecurities that ironically pushes people way. Step back from this. You're trying to fast forward too much. It's understandable you're lonely and would like a regular BF, but that takes time Let him initiate. Contact friends and family at home. Consider moving back home. 3
trident_2020 Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 As stated above, the insecurity and clinginess will send most people running for the hills. It's oppressive and unattractive. I'll add one other point. You had sex with him almost immediately. Interesting how you rationalized it- but that doesn't change the fact that when you give it up so easily most guys aren't going to view you as quality relationship material. He was already pulling back when you tried to be sexual with him.. I can just imagine what was going through his head when you where basically throwing yourself at him in desperation. That was the last thing he wanted, he couldn't get away from you fast enough. 2 1
ExpatInItaly Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 How many times have you actually met in person, OP? Is it three, or were there other dates? You seem overly emotionally-invested for a guy you don't know that well, though you also appear to have good insight into why your feelings might be magnified right now (pandemic, not being very happy with your life in general, and so on) I think a lot of us can identify with feeling more fragile and vulnerable in general right now. I live abroad and it's been a tough year for those of us who are far from home! I don't think you're wrong that he's pulling back. I wonder if he's not exactly single and maybe has someone else he's seeing, who might wonder where he is if he goes off the radar too long (or overnight) He also mentioned he got some bad news which could indeed be plaguing him and keeping him in a bad headspace. I would stop initiating and see what he does on his own. However, I would take time to reflect on why you've gotten to attached so quickly, and how to re-establish a healthier balance so you don't wind up placing expectations too high when you still don't know the man in question very well. 1
Author artnoveau Posted January 10, 2021 Author Posted January 10, 2021 29 minutes ago, trident_2020 said: As stated above, the insecurity and clinginess will send most people running for the hills. It's oppressive and unattractive. I'll add one other point. You had sex with him almost immediately. Interesting how you rationalized it- but that doesn't change the fact that when you give it up so easily most guys aren't going to view you as quality relationship material. He was already pulling back when you tried to be sexual with him.. I can just imagine what was going through his head when you where basically throwing yourself at him in desperation. That was the last thing he wanted, he couldn't get away from you fast enough. Thank you for the slut shaming I guess? There is nothing wrong with having sex with someone and being called desperate for it, is incredibly insulting. Over all your post is far away from what I call "wertschätzendes" feedback. I'm sorry I can't find a translation, but I'm sure in your culture you can be honest and nice about things at the same time, too.
trident_2020 Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 I wasn't referring to the sex as a desperate act. It's your actions afterwards- especially when he started pulling back, that project your insecurity and desperation. I never judged you as far as the immediate sex went- I simply pointed out that you will devalue yourself in the eyes of many or most guys who won't view you as a quality relationship partner- indeed it's happened to you before as per what you wrote in your post. It's no secret that experienced women will hold off on sex until after a period of time has elapsed even if the want it and really like the guy because they know what is likely to happen if they give it up too fast
Saracena Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 Oh OP your post absolutely reeks of desperation and insecurity, which you fully recognize but still act on, which only make things worse for you. Instead of backing off, which your when you first sensed this guy was losing interest (and there were numerous other later glaringly-obvious instances when he was pulling back, in your post) you chased. To be honest, I cringed while reading your post, sorry) From now on when you see these signs, pull waaay back yourself as well. Do not, on any account call them out on it or request further dates! It's not exactly clear why this guy didn't want to take things further but I've a feeling that 'bad news' may have been about an ex he'd recently split up with or someone else he'd been hoping to perhaps rekindle things with. Who knows, but it's perfectly clear he doesn't want to take things any further. For whatever reason. So leave him be. 4
Watercolors Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, artnoveau said: Thank you for the slut shaming I guess? There is nothing wrong with having sex with someone and being called desperate for it, is incredibly insulting. Over all your post is far away from what I call "wertschätzendes" feedback. I'm sorry I can't find a translation, but I'm sure in your culture you can be honest and nice about things at the same time, too. Hi art nouveau, you mean “appreciative” feedback, correct? That is the English translation for the German word, “wertschatzendes.” I think you should give yourself more credit. You are very intuitive and able to pick up on other people’s energy. So you are an empathetic person. You are a very open person. You wear your heart on your sleeve. You even gave him the chance to be honest with you, when you could sense that he was pulling away and asked him directly to just talk to you about what was on his mind. He refused to respect your feelings and made up a reason to leave and then he ghosted you. That’s not a very mature way to handle someone else’s feelings where dating is concerned. Ghosting is just so immature. Doesn’t matter if his emergency back home is real or an excuse to leave. He still could have respected your feelings enough to tell you if he was interested or not interested in seeing you over the long-term. I don’t think you are “desperate” as has been said about you. I think you are sensitive, well-aware of your insecurities that you’ve tried to work on, where it comes to emotional intimacy with guys you’re dating, and your need to be validated by the guy you are romantically involved with. In a lot of ways, you remind me of myself in college. I was very insecure and wanted to prove to the guys I was dating, that I had something to offer them, that I had value. It took me a long time to recognize that my chasing guys to prove to them I had value, made me look bad to them and turned the guys off. So, I would encourage you to have more self-confidence and to find a way to validate yourself instead of needing that validation to come from other people, especially guys you date. Be ok with rejection. Sometimes it’s not about you, but about them. So, look at rejection more objectively. Don’t take rejection personally anymore. You need to recognize that what you want and need from a romantic partner is just as important as what the guy you’re dating needs. His needs aren’t more important than yours. Finding someone compatible to date and be in a relationship is hard enough. (You need to find a guy who will appreciate how open you are. How intuitive and sensitive you are. Those are strengths, not weaknesses.)Then, add a pandemic to that, and being far away from home where you feel the most comfortable, and I can understand how that triggers your insecurities. So, let this guy contact you. But also, don’t wait for him to contact you. Start dating again. Focus on your studies. Video chat with your friends and family at home to stay connected to them. Focus on doing other things, so that you are not constantly worrying about whether or not this guy is going to contact you. He had the chance to be honest with you but he chose not to be. Do you really want to invest your time on a guy who doesn’t respect your feelings enough to be honest with you? I sure don’t. Hang in there. Edited January 10, 2021 by Watercolors 1
d0nnivain Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 If you wanted to have sex, that's fine. You are an adult & you can chose when. where & with whom to have sex. There's nothing wrong with the choice. The problems are elsewhere. The biggest one is you thought sex = relationship. You want intimacy. You got physical. They are different & now you are upset. You develop intimacy & a real connection over time. Sex is only a small component of that & can become a barrier when you share your bodies before your hearts & minds are ready for that. 1. Your statement that covid "made you" have sex earlier on the 1st date because the shut downs forced the date to be at home rather than in public. That is a justification. It's entirely possible to go to someone's home & visit without sex. If you had sex because you wanted to have sex, that is fine. Don't claim the virus made you do it. 2. Your insecurity is ruining things. You thought he was out of sorts on date 2, not sleeping or eating. You asked if you were the cause. How could you be the cause? You are a stranger, albeit a stranger he previously had sex with, but on date 2 you are of no consequence in his life, at least not important enough to cause sleeplessness or lack of appetite. If you were the cause, that guy has real problems & should be avoided. You also have no idea if he routinely has these issues. You made it about you. If I understood you, he cancelled date 3, which was to be a sleep over. He got bad news. You assumed he was not telling the truth. Given the death rates due to Covid bad news seems to be the norm these days so the idea that you immediately thought it was an excuse is on you not him. All of that screams needy & his highly unattractive. 3. You got way too attached to a stranger too quickly. At 3-4 dates he's still a stranger. Granted he's somebody you are trying to get to know but he's not somebody you can legitimately rely on at this point. 4. You are homesick & unfulfilled. I don't know what it is that you like to do that you can't do now because of Covid but maybe looking around for a hobby you can do will bring some light into your life. Try video chatting with friends & family back home more. 5. Stop the texting in favor of voice or video communication. Never ever discuss emotional or relationship subjects over texts. 90% of communication is non-verbal & you miss all of that in this medium. I applaud you for recognizing that these are issues you need to work on. You need to boost your own self esteem. There are books you can read & exercises to do. They now have tel-health mental health services here in the States. Do they have things like that in Germany? Try them. When you are more secure in yourself, dating will be easier & more fulfilling. Good luck. 7 1
HadMeOverABarrel Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 Desperation, neediness, insecurity are anti-seductive traits. If you believe you struggle with these, it's not a new partner's responsibility to mitigate them for you. You must get to the bottom of why you are triggered so much by fear of abandonment so you can stop sabotaging your romantic relationships. 4
ShyViolet Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, artnoveau said: I had literally begged for him to stay for five more minutes, but he said it was way too late. I let him leave and once he was gone I noticed that it was 20min to 8pm and he'd take no more than ten to get home. So I feel like there was time. We have settled on meeting again Monday evening with me staying over, but I am pretty sure he will cancel. He has not written me since he left last night I know he felt uncomfortable, at least at the end. This guy is clearly not interested in you, I don't know how many more signs you need. DO NOT put yourself in a position where you are begging. All the begging and chasing in the world is not going make him want to be with you. You seriously need to work on all this insecurity that you have. You're coming off as very clingy and that's not a good thing. You've gotten yourself way too attached and emotionally invested to a guy who you barely know. It sounds like you've been seeing him for a very short time. LET him go!! You can find a guy who is actually excited about being with you. I guarantee he's out there. But you will never be able to have a healthy relationship until you work on these insecurity and low self-esteem issues that you have. Get yourself into therapy. Edited January 10, 2021 by ShyViolet
smackie9 Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) Truth be told, your actions are your demise. D0nivian pointed it all out. I hope you take time to ponder over what she has posted, reflect and reassess. In order to change people's behavior towards you/ how they treat you, is to change your own behavior. And like I tell everyone else...sex is not a currency that buys you a relationship. Edited January 10, 2021 by smackie9 5
Versacehottie Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 3 hours ago, artnoveau said: And I'm unhappy with my life as it is - Corona is keeping me from every activity that is keeping me sane and I had to move 600km to this area due to study/work and have no really close friends nearby. I agree with all the others. I would also point to the above ^^^ that these are not good reasons to stick out a relationship and get clingy on a guy just because you can't deal with being alone. Right now what you are in with him feels pretty demoralizing IMO. I think it's going to chip away at your self esteem even more, lead you down the path of more bad decisions, and more negative self talk (ie that dating anywhere doesn't usually go well for you---also not a good reason to hang onto someone who isn't into you). It's also like you are waiting for the other shoe to drop. In case you don't have that saying where you are it roughly means: that you are hanging in there with a bad situation with him and all signs pointing to he will dump you and just waiting until he actually does it! Why not decide for yourself that what he's offering isn't good enough for you? As far as what what said to you about having sex too soon, you might not like to hear it and it certainly doesn't mean all guys feel this way, but people pointing out that some guys do is just a reality. Us discussing it and playing it safe with how we give advice won't change the fact that some guys are going to judge it---with you. I think it's a smaller percentage of guys who aren't judgmental about it if it takes place too soon. So if you are playing the percentages, it's smart for you to either play the game in a way that minimizes risks (ie waiting some more so you can no be judged and make the timing of sex a nonissue; as well as vet the guy more than you would be able to in a short period of time or on the first date). Or obviously you can do you and have sex as soon as you like as long as you realize, that double standard or not a percentage of guys are going to not pursue a relationship with you due to that often alone. If you are comfortable with that,, you can play it that way. I would say that guys don't always not pursue a relationship after sex that was right upfront because they are judging you about the timing but IMO more often because they don't want to immediately be in a relationship---it's taken away the beginning bonding stages of that for them, depending on how their minds work (each individual). As you've described your own situation, it does seem like the expectation that he needs to fill a void and be in an immediate relationship with you as a big part of his reluctance (which IMO is the most common reason guys pull away when you've had sex too soon). 2
Author artnoveau Posted January 10, 2021 Author Posted January 10, 2021 Well, update. I texted him, apologized for putting the pressure on and saying that things have felt less easy going the last few days. He agreed, apologized for how he acted yesterday and implied that he had some stuff going on, that contributed to that awkwardness. He is very much looking forward to meeting me again. This said, thank you Watercolors and ExpatinItaly! The way you replied to me, made me feel heard and appreciated. In fact, I think it helped me to find some inner calm and be able to take that step back and write to him in a more productive way. To everyone else I want to say that good advice not only includes the truth, but the way it's delivered. You will not help an insecure person by making them even more insecure. Chances are the insecure person knows very well how their behavior is contributing and might be off-putting. I even pointed out, that I do know this and that I do know I should take a step back, just don't know how. So all you did in pointing out how bad my behavior was and how unappealing it made me, was trigger shame and increase my insecurities. And I'm pretty sure that is a normal reaction. 1
Watercolors Posted January 10, 2021 Posted January 10, 2021 52 minutes ago, artnoveau said: This said, thank you Watercolors and ExpatinItaly! The way you replied to me, made me feel heard and appreciated. In fact, I think it helped me to find some inner calm and be able to take that step back and write to him in a more productive way. To everyone else I want to say that good advice not only includes the truth, but the way it's delivered. You will not help an insecure person by making them even more insecure. Chances are the insecure person knows very well how their behavior is contributing and might be off-putting. I even pointed out, that I do know this and that I do know I should take a step back, just don't know how. So all you did in pointing out how bad my behavior was and how unappealing it made me, was trigger shame and increase my insecurities. And I'm pretty sure that is a normal reaction. Hey, you're welcome artnoveau! Since I recognized my younger self in you, I knew immediately where your mindset was and why you think and react the ways you do with guys. Codependency is a learned habit from childhood and it takes a long time to reverse. Since you are aware that you are codependent, that's half the battle! Awareness is the first step. The second step is learning new behaviors to use, in place of the codependent behaviors. And that doesn't happen quickly. Those changes are internal so they will take time, reflection, and lots of practice. But I have confidence in you, that you can do it. You can reverse those insecure behaviors that get triggered, and replace them with self-confident behaviors that lead you towards healthier connections with guys, and with all of your relationships. It just takes practice. Hopefully, you can move on from this one dating experience with more knowledge about yourself and what triggers you, and how to counteract those triggers with healthier behaviors like positive self-talk, pacing yourself with communication, lowering your expectations, communicating your needs at the right time, and learning to relax and go with the flow, and learn to respond as things happen. And, not feel crushed when things don't turn out the way you expected. That's nice that he responded to your text. Just take it easy. Go with the flow. Don't focus all your energy on to him.
d0nnivain Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) I wasn't trying to shame you in any way. To the extent you felt shamed, I apologize. I'm just blunt. To me, my remarks were sugar coated but I know that to others they can seem edgy. I was actually trying to stick up for you when you felt s-shamed. I pointed out where I saw the errors in the hopes of helping you to see them, step back from them & find a path not to repeat mistakes. I want you to find a healthy, happy relationship but to do that you need balance in your own life. I know that when I'm out of whack it all seems worse & I used to pick the wrong partners. I didn't realize that part of that was the way I functioned in the world & that I attracted those people because they were the ones functioning on my broken wavelength. When I got better & more confident my ability to find a quality partner improved. But what I won't apologize for is encouraging you to Stop Texting! Seriously. Please educate yourself about communication especially the non-verbal stuff. Then reserve texts for short, factual stuff without emotion. Your life & your relationships will improve. Even above, as I was "talking" to you if you could hear my tone of voice, look in my eyes, & see my body language, as harsh as the cold words felt they were softened in ways not conveyed through a post. Edited January 11, 2021 by d0nnivain 1
Negotaurus Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 15 hours ago, artnoveau said: Well, update. I texted him, apologized for putting the pressure on and saying that things have felt less easy going the last few days. He agreed, apologized for how he acted yesterday and implied that he had some stuff going on, that contributed to that awkwardness. He is very much looking forward to meeting me again. This said, thank you Watercolors and ExpatinItaly! The way you replied to me, made me feel heard and appreciated. In fact, I think it helped me to find some inner calm and be able to take that step back and write to him in a more productive way. To everyone else I want to say that good advice not only includes the truth, but the way it's delivered. You will not help an insecure person by making them even more insecure. Chances are the insecure person knows very well how their behavior is contributing and might be off-putting. I even pointed out, that I do know this and that I do know I should take a step back, just don't know how. So all you did in pointing out how bad my behavior was and how unappealing it made me, was trigger shame and increase my insecurities. And I'm pretty sure that is a normal reaction. Dear, instead of hiding behind your insecurity and using it as a shield now, face it and fight it. It will benefit you much more in the future. You got sound and rational advice. Don't play victim and tear down the people who took the time out of their lives to offer you their wisdom. Insecure or not. 6 2
Versacehottie Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 3 hours ago, Negotaurus said: Dear, instead of hiding behind your insecurity and using it as a shield now, face it and fight it. It will benefit you much more in the future. You got sound and rational advice. Don't play victim and tear down the people who took the time out of their lives to offer you their wisdom. Insecure or not. 1000% I think the tone that OP "tried" to play the victim and didn't like sound advice that was less flattering to her--while still probably true and valid perspective--is exactly part of her problem overall. Heavy person. Not responsible and needy. It's exhausting already. Your insecurity is your own--stop blaming other people and expecting to be coddled. You asked for advice and you got it. I'm being far more harsh here than I was in my first post with advice for you. Probably you are too fragile to be dating. uh, good luck with that guy, i guess. 2
Lorenza Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 It is completely unreasonable and unfair to blame strangers for making your insecurities worse. No one is responsible for that apart of yourself and people on here are not professionally trained to deliver their opinion in a specific way that will not trigger you personally. A lot of women on here were adviced to not give up their goodies too fast if they expect a relationship out of it. If you want to have sex early - good for you, but treat it as a one night stand or a friend with benefits situation. If it ends up being more - great, a lot of relationships started with some casual fun, but you need to manage your expectations. Another thing is you only see each other at home which creates a false sense of intimacy which tends to get overwhealming quickly, especially with your insecurity and neediness. I actually think that no quality dating can happen during the lockdown. People need to go out and actually do things together to slowly build the attraction. Dwelling at home watching netflix with a stranger is rarely a good start. I'd advice you to step on the breaks, work on your issues and get back to dating when you've dealt with those. And when it's possible to date for real. By the way, I've been called out as needy and insecure on this forum as well and it only ended helping me on my way to fixing my self-esteem. 7
Versacehottie Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 ^^^^ lol, true. Shouting at us because she doesn't like us pointing out a valid perspective of this guy due to the situation as she presented the facts, won't change the fact that she will still be viewed as insecure and needy if she keeps doing these same behaviors. I guess it might make her feel better to shout at us but it won't change how guys view her, which is really exactly why she is getting this advice--to help her solve her problem.
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