Where are things heading with my guy?

[Menara]

I'm 43 with two young children, divorced since two years. I met this guy about 3 months ago, and after successful first and second dates, started texting quite a bit. However, it took many weeks before seeing him a third time, and when I pointed it out to him, he admitted to being indecisive. He said that he was only separated since 3 months from a 12 year marriage (from what I understand the separation was pretty painful), and that he sees me as so much more than just a rebound, and that because of that it is also a bigger decision to make. We finally saw each other again, and had an amazing date and he slept over. But after that, he was being elusive once more about when we would meet again. He was suddenly being a bit more distant. This was about two months after we met, and it was driving me quite insane. So, I told him nicely how I felt: that I understood that he was still processing his separation, but that this was too difficult for me. I told him that I wanted to take a break from seeing him and texting, but that he can reach out if he makes up his mind. This was shortly before Christmas.

10 days later, on Christmas Eve, he sent me a Merry Christmas text, and we started texting a bit. He said he had missed me, and if I would allow him to start texting me again. I agreed. He came over to have brunch with me and the kids on New Year day, and, when a few days later I sent him a text about wanting to see him, he texted back "what are you doing now?" and came over for a drink. He mentioned several times how hurt he was by me cutting off contact with him, and seems somewhat eager now to avoid that from happening again.

I should also add that he seems to be really into the idea of a combined family. He has been talking about this quite a bit (he's even brought up the idea of marriage several times!) and keeps proposing to do activities with our kids together. He made me meet his kids for a "photography session" (I'm a photographer) before our third date. 

Overall, it seems things might be getting somewhere. He texts me "good morning" every day, we text all through the day, and he often calls in the evening. However, I have this gut feeling that something isn't quite right. He only proposes/talks about activities involving kids, and all the times we saw each other alone, I had to bring it up...more than once, before it happened. In a lot of ways, he says all the right things, but his actions don't follow his words necessarily. 

I will add that I first found his obsession with kids a bit weird. But after having seen him with both his kids and mine, I saw that he is just one of those people that really loves kids. He was SO amazing with my kids the one time they met that my kids keep asking me when he is coming back. 

All that to say that I feel very confused about where I stand, where this is going or what to expect. I feel that he is giving me mixed signals. I'm generally pretty honest and open about my feelings, expectations etc. with men I date. Not to brag, but men generally find me very attractive and interesting, and I've done well with dating. In that sense, I haven't stopped dating other men during these past months, and have slept with a few other people since I met him. However, I am very fond of him - I really could see myself growing old with this guy! - and I would like things to progress into a committed relationship. I would normally just ask him where we stand, but don't want to seem like I'm trying to pressure him, or seem bossy or needy. I really don't want to screw this up!

Any opinions? Insight? Suggestions?

[Gaeta]

8 minutes ago, Menara said:

All that to say that I feel very confused about where I stand, where this is going or what to expect.

It's getting nowhere. Menara, you're a 43 year old woman,  you know better than to put all your hopes in a man only 3 months out of a 12 year relationship. You already know everything  you need to know. All his actions point toward he's not ready to date, and forget about committing to someone new. 

[Ami1uwant]

Being separated isn’t being divorced.  
 

3 months after 12 yrs is too. Soon toe rn start to date let alone have a relationship.

 

is there some formula to kniw when someone is ready...no.  It’s proportional to things like 

 

length of entire relationship

why the divorce occurred

how divorce proceedings went

what sort of shock or surprise is there was there in divorce talk being triggered

[Menara]

Thank you for your comments. 

Ami1uwant - to answer your questions about his separation:

- things seem quite final. They have a separation agreement, have split assets etc. and have agreed to process the divorce as soon as permitted by law (one year after separation). They are definitely not getting back together.

- he was quite surprised by her wanting a separation. They was no preliminary discussion about it: it just fell on his head one day when she presented him with a separation agreement, a proposed plan for splitting assets etc. She was not open to doing therapy, or even discussing the reasons for her wanting a separation. He suspects that she might have met someone else, but they didn't discuss it, and I think he doesn't really want to know.

- the separation has been quite a shock for him, and this was not something that he wanted.

- he says that he accepts the situation and has no desire to get her back. That he wants to move on, and wishes to have another long term relationship in the future.

[Versacehottie]

he's not emotionally available.  It's written all over your story.  Feels like classic rebound.

AND he is utilizing you for a mock up family feeling that he had previously (and maybe to ease the burden of his single dad time; variety of ways that it's a burden, difficult, not just the ones where he seems to be coping well).  Him only wanting to see you with kids activities is super telling.  I think you will get hurt.  Idk, also IMO it's way too soon to introduce your kids to some guy you are dating.  Even if there are other kids around and it's disguised as a playdate.  

[Versacehottie]

4 minutes ago, Menara said:

Thank you for your comments. 

Ami1uwant - to answer your questions about his separation:

- things seem quite final. They have a separation agreement, have split assets etc. and have agreed to process the divorce as soon as permitted by law (one year after separation). They are definitely not getting back together.

- he was quite surprised by her wanting a separation. They was no preliminary discussion about it: it just fell on his head one day when she presented him with a separation agreement, a proposed plan for splitting assets etc. She was not open to doing therapy, or even discussing the reasons for her wanting a separation. He suspects that she might have met someone else, but they didn't discuss it, and I think he doesn't really want to know.

- the separation has been quite a shock for him, and this was not something that he wanted.

- he says that he accepts the situation and has no desire to get her back. That he wants to move on, and wishes to have another long term relationship in the future.

More evidence that he is trying to "substitute" you for what he lost suddenly.  It's mother figure/family stuff, not romantic love stuff.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Versacehottie

[Gaeta]

8 minutes ago, Menara said:

- he was quite surprised by her wanting a separation. They was no preliminary discussion about it: it just fell on his head one day when she presented him with a separation agreement, a proposed plan for splitting assets etc. She was not open to doing therapy, or even discussing the reasons for her wanting a separation.

If you had told us their marriage had been done and over with for years, he had emotionally checked out a long time ago, they had separate bedrooms, etc THEN I would have been flexible but in this case here, no unfortunately. This man is nowhere ready to invest himself or love again. Be good to yourself and end this.

[Menara]

I definitely agree that he was emotionally unavailable when we first met, reason why I decided to end things after two months. Since he reappeared, his communication has been very consistent, and he has agreed to see me when I mentioned it (although not initiating this himself). 

I have learned over the past two years of dating to believe my gut feeling (which tends to be right). What my gut feeling is telling me is that he really likes me, and can see himself/would like a relationship with me, but that he isn't ready right now to take that step. I haven't discussed this with him in that way though.

I was seeing someone for a year after my separation, and things with that person progressed really quickly only to discover a year later that we wanted different things. In that sense, I don't mind taking things a bit more slowly, if things will eventually go somewhere. As I said, I really like this guy, and would be willing to give him space and time if I felt that things will eventually go somewhere. I am obviously not looking to get hurt though, although at this point it will happen anyway.

But from what I understand from your comments, this will never go anywhere even if I wait? 

Gaeta: you mention to just end it, without a discussion? Without mentioning my reasons?

 

[Ruby Slippers]

Separated = still legally bound to another woman = nowhere near ready to date again. I've always followed the advice not to date a man who hasn't been legally divorced for at least 1 year. Something as huge as a marriage falling apart takes time to get over.

23 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

If you had told us their marriage had been done and over with for years, he had emotionally checked out a long time ago, they had separate bedrooms, etc THEN I would have been flexible but in this case here, no unfortunately. This man is nowhere ready to invest himself or love again. Be good to yourself and end this.

Even this doesn't mean anything. A few years ago I found myself on a date with a guy I hadn't screened well enough. I knew before going out that he was divorced, but I didn't know until the date that he'd only been divorced for 2 months. He claimed exactly what you wrote here - marriage had been dead for 5 years, and they were living on separate floors of the house, hardly ever even saw each other. We went out a few times, but it quickly became very clear he was still very jaded and bitter. When a marriage fails, when it's finally officially over, that's a certain "death" that people need time to get over. 

I'd tell this guy to get back to me a year after his divorce, then keep dating others and not wait for him. It's not going to go anywhere at this time.

[Versacehottie]

26 minutes ago, Menara said:

I definitely agree that he was emotionally unavailable when we first met, reason why I decided to end things after two months. Since he reappeared, his communication has been very consistent, and he has agreed to see me when I mentioned it (although not initiating this himself). 

I have learned over the past two years of dating to believe my gut feeling (which tends to be right). What my gut feeling is telling me is that he really likes me, and can see himself/would like a relationship with me, but that he isn't ready right now to take that step. I haven't discussed this with him in that way though.

I was seeing someone for a year after my separation, and things with that person progressed really quickly only to discover a year later that we wanted different things. In that sense, I don't mind taking things a bit more slowly, if things will eventually go somewhere. As I said, I really like this guy, and would be willing to give him space and time if I felt that things will eventually go somewhere. I am obviously not looking to get hurt though, although at this point it will happen anyway.

But from what I understand from your comments, this will never go anywhere even if I wait? 

Gaeta: you mention to just end it, without a discussion? Without mentioning my reasons?

 

 I think you are getting the illusion of availability and progression of the relationship.  The emotional availability is still missing.  I doubt much changed in a month given all the circumstances.  Consistent communication does not equal romantically open and available.  Sounds like companionship, filling a void.

Idk, know if ending it without a discussion is what to do but I always think action is better than words.  I think you should seriously take a step back and perhaps considering ending it.  There is no guarantee it would work out even if he had a clean slate but you've started in an uphill battle and developing a pattern where you are a placeholder not the real deal.  All my friends who are with a person that was initially emotionally unavailable, had to walk away and shut it down for some time.  Even if the time was relatively short, the person who was previously unavailable, HAD to come back with romantic and progressing intentions.  I think it's something they can only realize once they feel the loss of you.  You are settling for companionship, filling a void, which is markedly different and you will get hurt IMO

[Menara]

Ruby Slippers: I don't think this necessarily applies to all people who separate. My case is a good example: my ex husband and I separated two years ago. I left him after a year of trying to make things work and we were clearly failing at it. He was quite devastated and angry at first. Then he met someone three months later, and they have now bought a house together and are getting married. I had also gotten involved in a long-term relationship almost immediately which didn't work out for reasons other than me not being ready for a new relationship.

[smackie9]

Mixed signals means no signals point towards what you want. He doesn't know what he wants. When they blow hot and cold, that;s when you need to run.

[GeorgiaPeach1]

3 hours ago, Menara said:

However, it took many weeks before seeing him a third time, and when I pointed it out to him, he admitted to being indecisive.

This is the point where I would have bounced.

[Menara]

Ok. I hear loud and clear everyone telling me to end this.  I have previously ended things with him, and he has come back. In this sense, it would also not be fair to him to end it the same way as before with leaving the door open and giving him hope. I'm not gonna take him on a roller coaster ride. This would be emotional abuse! 

So, at this point, after having already ended things before and having made it clear that I found indecision an unattractive trait in a man and not relationship material, I feel I either give him a bit more time, have a serious discussion with him about how I feel or I end things permanently. 

[Menara]

I did bounce shortly after that and he came back!

[Ruby Slippers]

3 minutes ago, Menara said:

I did bounce shortly after that and he came back!

Most men try coming back. It's easier to keep an existing woman than find a new one. You don't have to take him back. I think you're wasting your time as long as you do.

Also, just because your ex dove into another relationship and marriage quickly doesn't mean it's a healthy, happy relationship or that it's going to last.

[ShyViolet]

It's a red flag that he has started talking about "combining families" and marriage after only knowing each other three months.  If nothing else, it shows poor judgment.  There are kids involved here, it's not smart to move too fast like that.  And then on the other side of the coin, he's been "indecisive" about you.  Trust your gut, something seems off about this guy.

[spiderowl]

He did not end his marriage, Menara, so he hadn't reached the point of being emotionally detached from his wife.  He was probably still in shock when he met you.

It sounds like he wants the 'family' experience and, from what you say, is pretty much focusing on the children.  This is a sign he is not particularly looking for a relationship but finds it comforting at the moment. There is nothing wrong with you; it's his state of mind and commitment that is the issue.

Could something come of this?  Maybe, a long way down the line.  Even if he does claim commitment to you and perhaps suggests marriage, I would be very wary.  You need to know each other a whole lot better than you do at the moment.  He might be trying to recreate his family again rather than seeing you as an individual.

Does he give you much attention?  It is possible this will turn into a relationship in the long run but at the moment, the guy is seeking comfort and familiarity.  If you misinterpret that as love and attachment for you, you might be disappointed. I would interpret his interest in the children as being his primary motivator at the moment.  He might be doing what they like as opposed to what you would like him to be doing.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

[trident_2020]

You don't have to be so black and white. You can simply tell him that it's clear he's not ready for commitment so you're going to continue to date but you're still willing to see him on a casual basis with no strings.

No need to slam the door shut, until and unless you find someone who is in a better place and is a better fit.

 

[Menara]

Trident_2020: I have done exactly that in fact. I have had suspicions early on that he was emotionally still recovering from his separation, and he admitted to being indecisive after I asked him some questions (two months ago). He was very honest about the whole thing, but it was driving me a bit crazy at the time, and that's why I decided to cut communications with him then.

After he reappeared and asked to message each other again, I had initially suggested just being friends for now. He said he didn't want to just be friends, and I made it clear to him that I will continue dating, and that I have and will continue sleeping with other people as long as he doesn't tell me he wants a committed relationship (and I have done both those things). He has agreed to this and not given me a hard time about it, although whenever somehow it comes up that I have been seeing someone else, he says he feels sad and jealous about it. I have stood my grounds on this though. I will not put all my eggs in one same basket. I have enough life and dating experience to know better.

My main problem is that I am growing very attached to this man and the situation is making me feel a little sad. I don't get the sense that he is shopping around, or sleeping with multiple other women. If anything, I get the sense that I might have been the first and only person that he slept with since his separation. I've actually had even suggested to him after the indecision discussion to get out there, sleep around, get it out of his system, and then get back to me when he's ready. He's a very attractive guy, and I'm sure it wouldn't take much effort for him to do this. I had done that the first months after my separation and found it to be the paving stones towards me being ready for a new relationship. 

[Gaeta]

34 minutes ago, Menara said:

 and he came back!

Of course he came back, I had guys coming back 2-3 times. Your guy just wants to pickup a new life where he left off the old ones.  He wants to fill that void because while it's filled with this fake-family-life he's not thinking of the 'real' one he's lost. 

Between you and him you're the one with the better judgement. You're not recently out of a relationship that you didn't want to end. He's too raw to even know himself what he wants BUT you know better. You need to watch your back, no one else will do it for you.

[smackie9]

Have that serious conversation with him, and tell him, saying what you want to hear isn't going to work this time, actions speak louder than words. say : If his behavior doesn't change then it's bubbbye out the door.

[Lotsgoingon]

The difference between separated and divorced is huge.  And he's only 3 months separated.

That he was dumped is even a bigger block. He is not only not ready. He can't be ready at this stage. Lots of separated couples suddenly meet up to have sex even as they go forward on the divorce.

Trust that gut of yours that says something isn't right. That observation you had--that he seems more eager to hang with the kids and not just with you alone--that's huge. You don't get a bigger red flag than that. All of your bolded sentences were brilliantly insightful, by the way. So your radar is working. You're picking up the subtle shifts in energy that really reveal what's going on with another person. But then you miss the biggest points of all. 

One, three months separated---not quite the same ... but is in the ballpark of 3 months after the death of someone you love. The second big point you miss is that there is NO SUCH THING as mixed signals. Relationships require overwhelming desire and conviction to have a chance to go anywhere--not a guarantee--just a chance! Mixed signals = not sufficiently interested. Period. I have never been ready to date a woman and sent mixed signals. I have sent all kinds of mixed singles when I wasn't really ready to date or when I was only looking for sex or when I only wanted to spend a limited amount of time with the person. And I would have denied I was sending mixed signals. O

Mixed signals just mean the person has enough energy to go out and be fun to be with. People who are genuinely interested in us--and READY!--make it very clear that they want to be with us. We don't have to twist ourselves into pretzels to find a way to feel the other's interest. 

BTW: this is another of the many red flags: He mentioned several times how hurt he was by me cutting off contact with him, and seems somewhat eager now to avoid that from happening again. 

Excuse me, he goes vague about next meeting and you pull back (smartly!) and he's hurt?! What is he--a kindergartner wanting mom to keep up with him in the mall? In relationships, the other person really SHOULD pull back when we're vague. He should know that. More to the point, you guys are not attached enough for him to be "hurt." Really strange reaction and words there.

Immaturity written all over his reaction. He might be ready or desperate for a friendship with a woman, not romance. "Might," I say. "Might." And you cannot trust the other person's words on this. People going through separation and divorce (and I say you're not even going through the divorce until the legal papers are filed) typically have no clue about the process they're going through. 

 

[Menara]

Lotsgoingon: thank you for your reply. I guess he's been separated 6 months now, but circumstances matter, and time isn't as much of a factor necessarily as emotional healing. 

And I agree with you about his comment on him being hurt: I felt that was actually a bit rude to mention in the context that I stopped talking to him after clearly indicating that I liked him and wished for things to move forward, giving him the space to make a move which he didn't, and then saying that given circumstances I did not wish to be in communications with him anymore since I was no longer enjoying this. But left the door open for him to get in touch with me if he made up his mind somehow. I was crystal clear, and at the time he acknowledged everything I said. So I was a bit bewildered when he said that my behaviour had been hurtful. 

But I think you hit the nail by mentioning immaturity. I think on top of him mourning his past relationship, he is being immature. I don't get a sense of him that he is the type of person who is a player, or someone who intentionally would string someone along. I think it's more that he is confused, and immature (as you say), so doesn't know what the proper behaviour is in this situation, and how weird his actual behaviour looks from the outside. 

[Lotsgoingon]

@Menara it's funny. The conclusion I have arrived at over time is that being immature when meeting someone almost (maybe not quite--but almost!) looks exactly like, certainly feels exactly like, if someone were deliberately jerking us around.

The guy here doesn't sound deliberately manipulative or mean, but yes, he does sound wounded and immature. And let me tell you, as someone who has been the immature one and someone who has dated immature others, dating an immature person is just asking for pain. We want goodness, but we also want maturity, or capability. Without the necessary maturity, the person cannot possibly be consistent, clear, loving, responsive, attentive, thoughtful, emotionally intimate, patient, reliable and all the rest. Can't do those things with immaturity. 

Labeling your behavior "hurtful" is really off--like way, way way off. Makes me think he was blindly immature in his marriage. So another red flag. He likely did immature stuff with his wife (and yes she's still his wife!) and still can't really see it--like probably stuff you would consider blatantly bad ... and then told his wife, her reaction was "hurtful."  So this guy seems to have major blindspots and relationship cluelessness. Which ain't good because even after you see your own immaturity, it takes more effort and determination to change it, to grow up. You on the other hand, do seem really balanced and thoughtful and your radar are in exquisite shape. You just want to accept that your radar's signals (that something is wrong) are accurate. Often the radar isn't fully articulate--doesn't tell us exactly what's bugging us. But that's because it's wholistic, taking in hundreds of subtle variables and reading things at the unconscious level as well, like body language or even the timing in the way the other person talks and responds or how they stand in our presence and on and on.  And the radar just reaches a broad conclusion: not good, or not comfortable. 

My brother used to work in some of the toughest neighborhoods of his city as a court officer. He would always say, you're walking into some situation and it feels off, stop, trust that feeling. Same applies to dating. Times I've ignored my radar, just a matter of time before my conscious mind could articulate what the unconscious radar picked up months earlier. 

Good luck.