Have Entered yet Another Brutal State of Limerence.

January 4, 2021

I'm mid thirties and met a woman who I've developed a pretty big crush on out of nowhere.

It's been just a few dates and I'm already falling hard. Let me be clear, not falling in love, but in limerence. I have very excited and burning feelings for her. She's impressively smart, pretty, stylish, artsy (which I am as well), and we've already had a few of those revelations of shared personal sentiment that feel special. But I know our real selves have not even come close to emerging. I know my feelings are premature.

I have to admit this is somewhat a habit of mine. If I meet a woman who ticks a lot of my boxes and also shows interest in me, I become so smitten, yet so concerned, and I can't naturally proceed with the courtship. I play things too cool so as not to scare them off with my eagerness, and they sometimes begin to wonder if I'm actually interested.

I don't know what to do about it because I am looking to find someone to settle down with at my age. I would like to actually make things work with someone I desire.

I grew up with severe social anxiety from childhood to my twenties. Didn't have a ton of friends. Feel like I wasted so much time. However I underwent therapy for years. I did a heck of a lot of research, joined toastmasters for several years, belonged to an improv team for several years, joined meetup, practiced meditation, reconnected with family, really sat down and became introspective. All these things to help become more comfortable around people. And it's helped. Many people who know me have remarked about the changes they've seen.

Workwise I've established a good career, obtained a master's degree, while still being able to pursue my artistic dreams on the side.

Datingwise I was busy with the apps for a while in order to put myself out there and to meet women and learn how to court. I'm a good looking guy, great family, fit, smart, artsy, genuine and I care about people. But for some reason I just feel like I'm falling short when I meet someone I like. I know there will be hiccups along the way, but I just wish I could sober up and meaningfully progress with a woman when I'm fortunate enough to enter a situation that shows promise. Make a person feel properly wanted. Instead I just suffer.

Any advice?

Edited January 4, 2021 by DebussyChopin

January 4, 2021

Fake it until you make it. You're right, you'll likely scare them off if you show your true feelings but don't overcompensate and give off an impression that you aren't interested.

Strive for the balance. Know your audience.

January 4, 2021

4 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

Fake it until you make it. You're right, you'll likely scare them off if you show your true feelings but don't overcompensate and give off an impression that you aren't interested.

Strive for the balance. Know your audience.

Thank you. I have been trying. Last time we were together I looked at her and told her I thought she was pretty. Her response was "that's the first compliment you've given me all night." I bantered back a little, and it wasn't a big thing. But I just gotta figure out how to escalate the romance a little more I suppose, before the window closes and the friendzone vibes set in.

January 4, 2021

Why are you presupposing that it won't work out?

Also from reading your OP i would say that if you look between the lines, it seems like you are as stuck in your past or more than you have fully embraced all your successes and progression. I think while obviously you are a product of your past, concentrating on it or incorporating it as part of your package is holding you back. I think you more need to connect with your success and who you are NOW. Ultimately that is what matters. I agree that part of what you do should be faking it until you make it. In a way i think you are still a little stuck in your social anxiety as well and cannot help observing how you fit into everything rather than just experiencing. Try to do more of that. Just experience.

Lastly I would say as a tactical maneuver with her that you most magnetic will probably be when you don't really give AF about the outcome. Just focus on giving your best in the moment and know you will be ok either way. Good luck

Ps i know you didn't "say" that it won't work out in your OP but it's "there" all over the thing

Edited January 5, 2021 by Versacehottie

January 5, 2021

12 minutes ago, DebussyChopin said:

Last time we were together I looked at her and told her I thought she was pretty. Her response was "that's the first compliment you've given me all night."

Goodness. I would have been tempted to smile and ask "how many compliments do you need?"

The problem with limerence is that it comes with a pair of rose coloured glasses. If you continue dating, look for signs that she may be overly demanding or entitled.

January 5, 2021

Ive always found I have needed help from the other person to overcome the social anxiety,

it will happen naturally with some people but others I will always still feel a little on edge around,

try to enjoy her company I suppose, I think you are on the right track playing it cool in general, and if she is the one you will feel it.

January 5, 2021

9 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Goodness. I would have been tempted to smile and ask "how many compliments do you need?"

The problem with limerence is that it comes with a pair of rose coloured glasses. If you continue dating, look for signs that she may be overly demanding or entitled.

The entitled/high-maintenance thing is a possibility, in which case I'll lose interest. I already know it's not my taste. But she seems kind and considerate also so it's just too early to tell.

Edited January 5, 2021 by DebussyChopin

January 5, 2021

Do your best to think about her and less about yourself is my main advice. Someone, I think Foxhall, wrote, "Enjoy her." That's great advice! If you're enjoying someone they can tell it and it makes them feel great, too!

January 5, 2021

21 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Goodness. I would have been tempted to smile and ask "how many compliments do you need?"

The problem with limerence is that it comes with a pair of rose coloured glasses. If you continue dating, look for signs that she may be overly demanding or entitled.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. I can't imagine complaining like that to a man I've been on a few dates with when he did something nice.

It's very wise that you recognize you're in the initial infatuation stage and you want to be careful not to let it take over. Sounds like you need to relax a little and let things happen.

My attitude is always something like: This is awesome, I'm having a blast, hope it works out... but if not, I'll be fine. What I could do better in the future is to take things slower and get to know him a lot better before letting things get too serious. In my experience it takes at least a few months to get a glimpse of the person's weaker points, and sometimes those can be deal-breakers.

January 5, 2021

Don't stop dating other people. Seems like you have a lot going for yourself, you don't want to make her your obsession.

You have to trust and believe that you're good enough that if someone you like doesn't reciprocate, you'll just find another.

January 5, 2021

These days, I think it's best to go transparent and authentic. First you need to make clear your interest in her. Telling her she’s “pretty” is woefully inadequate. Wow, you look great. I love the way you tell stories. It's important to publicly say to her what you like about her—ideally in real time. It tells her what you appreciate--gives her valuable information. Holding back compliments doesn't really work. It comes off not as "cool" but as socially awkward and distant and unengaged. No need to tell her about the full state of your limerence but share some of the specific qualities that you like in her.

This way your interest comes through, your individuality comes through. And ... you've not committed to anything. The compliments don’t rule out discovering other qualities of hers (as you will) that you don’t like or simply discovering for any number of reasons you and she wouldn’t make a good couple. But you gotta come stronger than “pretty.” OMG, dude. She will think you have no interest in her, or since your interest is probably coming through in your body language but she’s not getting the words to match, she will think you’re distant and socially awkward. She’ll feel uncomfortable. So, go stronger with compliments. You look great in that outfit. Wow. Love the way you tell stories. And let your body language interest show.

The first step (above) was about sending interest signals to her—which you need to do better. The second step is you need to send “slow down” signals to yourself.

Here you need to remind yourself that the intoxicating feeling you are having is quite limited and not accurate at all in predicting who will make a great partner for you. The feeling of limerence doesn't know whether she's a serial killer, doesn't know if she has a gambling addiction, doesn’t know how much debt she has, doesn’t know if she’s has a drug-addicted brother who disrupts her life, does know whether she grew up in a violent household with a dad who inappropriately came on to her when drunk (like one of my exes) or whether she has a mean and nasty and toxic mother, or whether she can maintain friends, or whether she's dated several married men or whether she would be kind when you're sick, or whether she flirts with other people when dating or whether she has problems saying "no" to other people, and on and on.

You don't know even what kissing her is like or whether you two have sexual chemistry. The most gorgeous woman probably that I ever dated---she and I had no physical chemistry. Kissing her was like putting my lips up to a rubber inner tube of a bike.

Limerence checks for none of that. Limerence is terrible at predicting what we’ll feel about someone in six months. Start imagining what her vices are. Everyone has some. What do you think hers are? You've probably gotten some hints already. Your analytical brain has gotten those hints of sides of her that are very different than you. Right now, the limerence is likely suppressing the importance of what you've observed of her that is very different from your style. (We tend to prefer similarity in lots of qualities.) If you’re quick to limerence, then a good strategy is to deliberately make yourself critical of her, look for problems. Trust me: if the problems aren’t really there, you’ll forget about them soon enough.

Finally, do NOT listen to romantic songs during this period. Do NOT feed this feeling. If this is a good woman for you, you don’t need to listen to romantic songs all day. If this is a good woman for you, she will survive your learning about her vices and her differences from you. But right now, you need to get the analytical brain revved up looking for problems. That will slow you down without ruining future possibility. With the goal being that you need to get to know her, over time, and you can only really know if you want another date with her, and if things are right, you don't need to rush.

January 5, 2021

No advice, but she'd be completely nuts not to see what's right in front of her .

January 5, 2021

53 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

These days, I think it's best to go transparent and authentic...

Thanks so much for this response. Yep. My biggest concern is the disconnect between my feelings and my expressions. The "incongruence" as it's often referred to, might be a turn off, which is always there. I can't relate to it which makes it difficult to pick up on, but I've been on the receiving end.

Perhaps my lingering anxiety still makes this a problem. Anxiety in general basically freezes my brain so that a small fraction of my thoughts can actually flow and land in real time, particularly when it comes to the romance. Throughout the date I spend so much time attempting to shake loose seamless displays of desire and compliments. All I can typically manage is "you look pretty," "I like your outfit." My ideas are often minimal and my executions rigid, until afterwards, when I'm alone and the ice melts and I'm kicking myself saying, "why didn't I say this?" "why didn't I do this?" ad nauseum.

Before dates I actually often go to dive bars and have one drink and chat up strangers just to get the jitters out and loosen up. This has gotten me to a point where I can have great general conversations, but it still doesn't do the trick in that one important department. So in the aftermath of the date I'm always torn between sending a follow up text to make up for my what I lacked (I never do this, at least nothing overboard), or simply letting it go and hoping to do better the next time (if there is one, and when there is, the cycle repeats itself).

I like the wonderful advice that's been given in this thread. I'm going to have to try it all, enjoy the girl, think less about myself, pay more attention to flaws, fake it till I make it, and will try to be optimistic, but the process honestly feels like torture sometimes, and I sometimes feel like giving up.

Edited January 5, 2021 by DebussyChopin

January 5, 2021

I recommend you go ahead and say, "Look, I'm really nervous, and I know I'm not saying a lot, but I'm really liking you and I'm enjoying being with you a lot. It's just I am really shy when I first meet someone." And here's the kicker: blush away. Don't hide it. Turn red or green in your face--don't hide it. Stammer and stutter and trip over your words, don't hide it.

That way your nervous body language and words admitting to nervousness will be in congruence. But you've mustered up the strength to tell her that you really like her, which is essential and shows a lot of courage! Write out the words and practice them if you have to. Just one or two sentences.

Here's the thing: if she's going to be a good partner, she has to face your anxiety, she has to be able to be comfortable with it. And so putting it out there is actually fine. You don't wanna hide that. If she likes you at all, she'll really appreciate you telling her how to read you (that's very considerate) and she'll likely work hard to relax you and reassure you. All plusses right there, brother.

January 5, 2021

2 hours ago, DebussyChopin said:

The entitled/high-maintenance thing is a possibility, in which case I'll lose interest. I already know it's not my taste. But she seems kind and considerate also so it's just too early to tell.

But you’ve only had 3 dates with this woman and yet you’re already invested in her without really knowing her. That’s definitely limerence. You write that it’s too early to tell but you acknowledge that you tend to “look before you leap” with women you date. You have the whole package, according to your OP, yet how is it that you still have anxiety about dating?

And, be careful using alcohol as your ice breaker like the character Raj from the tv sitcom, The Big Bang Theory; where he couldn’t talk to women unless he had a few beers and was tipsy or drunk. Instead of going to dive bars and having a beer or two to loosen up before a date, why not just practice positive self-talk, where you validate yourself to yourself. Remind yourself of the good qualities you have to offer women, and ground yourself in the knowledge that the right woman won’t be someone you have to convince to like you. The right person will like you no matter what. It really is just that simple. I don’t know why people over complicate it. Either someone likes you or they don’t. Isn’t that how dating goes anyway? It’s a numbers game. Not everybody is going to be the right fit.

January 5, 2021

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

These days, I think it's best to go transparent and authentic. First you need to make clear your interest in her. Telling her she’s “pretty” is woefully inadequate. Wow, you look great. I love the way you tell stories. It's important to publicly say to her what you like about her—ideally in real time. It tells her what you appreciate--gives her valuable information. Holding back compliments doesn't really work. It comes off not as "cool" but as socially awkward and distant and unengaged. No need to tell her about the full state of your limerence but share some of the specific qualities that you like in her.

This way your interest comes through, your individuality comes through. And ... you've not committed to anything. The compliments don’t rule out discovering other qualities of hers (as you will) that you don’t like or simply discovering for any number of reasons you and she wouldn’t make a good couple. But you gotta come stronger than “pretty.” OMG, dude. She will think you have no interest in her, or since your interest is probably coming through in your body language but she’s not getting the words to match, she will think you’re distant and socially awkward. She’ll feel uncomfortable. So, go stronger with compliments. You look great in that outfit. Wow. Love the way you tell stories. And let your body language interest show.

The first step (above) was about sending interest signals to her—which you need to do better. The second step is you need to send “slow down” signals to yourself.

Here you need to remind yourself that the intoxicating feeling you are having is quite limited and not accurate at all in predicting who will make a great partner for you. The feeling of limerence doesn't know whether she's a serial killer, doesn't know if she has a gambling addiction, doesn’t know how much debt she has, doesn’t know if she’s has a drug-addicted brother who disrupts her life, does know whether she grew up in a violent household with a dad who inappropriately came on to her when drunk (like one of my exes) or whether she has a mean and nasty and toxic mother, or whether she can maintain friends, or whether she's dated several married men or whether she would be kind when you're sick, or whether she flirts with other people when dating or whether she has problems saying "no" to other people, and on and on.

You don't know even what kissing her is like or whether you two have sexual chemistry. The most gorgeous woman probably that I ever dated---she and I had no physical chemistry. Kissing her was like putting my lips up to a rubber inner tube of a bike.

Limerence checks for none of that. Limerence is terrible at predicting what we’ll feel about someone in six months. Start imagining what her vices are. Everyone has some. What do you think hers are? You've probably gotten some hints already. Your analytical brain has gotten those hints of sides of her that are very different than you. Right now, the limerence is likely suppressing the importance of what you've observed of her that is very different from your style. (We tend to prefer similarity in lots of qualities.) If you’re quick to limerence, then a good strategy is to deliberately make yourself critical of her, look for problems. Trust me: if the problems aren’t really there, you’ll forget about them soon enough.

Finally, do NOT listen to romantic songs during this period. Do NOT feed this feeling. If this is a good woman for you, you don’t need to listen to romantic songs all day. If this is a good woman for you, she will survive your learning about her vices and her differences from you. But right now, you need to get the analytical brain revved up looking for problems. That will slow you down without ruining future possibility. With the goal being that you need to get to know her, over time, and you can only really know if you want another date with her, and if things are right, you don't need to rush.

Best dating advice I've read on LS since I've been here! Great post, Lotsgoingon!

!

January 5, 2021

20 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

Instead of going to dive bars and having a beer or two to loosen up before a date, why not just practice positive self-talk, where you validate yourself to yourself...The right person will like you no matter what. It really is just that simple. I don’t know why people over complicate it. Either someone likes you or they don’t. Isn’t that how dating goes anyway? It’s a numbers game. Not everybody is going to be the right fit.

I'm definitely not the total package, have flaws of my own, but I'd say "a catch" or something. When I'm past the courtship and actually enter a relationship I'm usually much more comfortable and free flowing.

With the self talk, I actually do this sometimes too. Some mindfulness meditation to get out of my own head, and some encouragement to give me that boost of self confidence to take the lead on the dates.

Eventually I hope for the day when I can just be myself and not make things complicated for sure. Until then I guess I'll keep working on it.

Edited January 5, 2021 by DebussyChopin

January 5, 2021

5 minutes ago, DebussyChopin said:

I'm definitely not the total package, have flaws of my own, but I'd say "a catch" or something. When I'm past the courtship and actually enter a relationship I'm usually much more comfortable and free flowing.

With the self talk, I actually do this sometimes too. Some mindfulness meditation to get out of my own head, and some encouragement to give me that boost of self confidence to take the lead on the dates.

Eventually I hope for the day when I can just be myself and not make things complicated for sure. Until then I guess I'll keep working on it.

That’s great to keep working on your self-confidence with women and dating. I just worry that you are taking shortcuts (going to dive bars to drink before a date) that are more self-destructive in the long run.

January 5, 2021

Just temper yourself. Don't go too far in either direction or compensate by playing it too cool.

Relax. Be yourself. Over-controlling this is self-sabotage.

Enjoy the process

January 6, 2021

To me it seems clear why you do this. You are coming from a place of a scarcity( you don’t feel you meet people who check your boxes often) and also you have a personality inclined to overthink/idealize( that is based on your anxiety and other things you stated). That’s a great combo for putting the P on a pedestal. You have to try to look at this as logically as you can. You know that this woman could actually be nothing like what you have idealized. You know that since you have experienced this before you will experience again. So really, this person is not that special. And the more special that you find her the more delusional you will become and the more likely you will mess this up before it even has to get off the ground. Stay cool, my man.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Shortskirtslonglashes

January 6, 2021

Dude women like to be desired. Leave the slobbering puppy part out and just be a lustful but charming man. There's a difference in desiring someone vs putting them up on a pedestal/ being needy/emotional. You can't sit there holding your breath...you get friend zoned because there is no sexual tension/ buildup. It's all about how you carry yourself...with confidence, boldness, strength!

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