Women waiting for sex to avoid being used

[Lance Mannion]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

How many men are completely honest about their past? 
Should men lay it all out on the line?
Every ONS, every dalliance, every woman they have ever been with or is that just silly thinking? 

Sure, if women demand it, I don't think guys would mind at all. Look, if you're under the impression that male virginity is something desired by women, then we'd expect to see Incels being the Kings of the Dating World.  That's not what we're seeing at all. We don't live in a world of uniform standards for the sexes, we live in a world where the two sexes have different standards for mating preferences.

[elaine567]

I believe society expects women to be chaste and pure and men to be caddish scoundrels.
Women have to put up with keeping themselves as virginal as possible else be seen as loose, "second hand" women and men can get away with anything they want and women "again" have to like it or lump it...
Women especially those who are relationship minded do not want a guy who has bedded enough women to fill a double decker bus, but society tells us we shouldn't mind if he has...
Society is changing but old ideas persist...

[Wiseman2]

32 minutes ago, Lance Mannion said:

. We don't live in a world of uniform standards for the sexes, we live in a world where the two sexes have different standards for mating preferences.

Perhaps you should change this to "I".

Perhaps you are just debating/playing devil's advocate for fun. 

Seems like a lot of regurgitated manosphere rhetoric.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Wiseman2

[Emilie Jolie]

We live in the world we create for ourselves. 

There are plenty of great guys who are secure in themselves regardless of anyone's past history, theirs or others. They are the ones to look for, not those who feel they have a moral superiority over someone for any reason.

We all 'know a guy / woman who...' - they're not you, they don't have your history, they don't have your background or sensitivities. Unless someone has a stellar past themselves, they need to be careful how they judge other people. Personally, if a guy treats me well, I don't care how many women he's slept with (or not). If he judges me on my past, you can bet your last [insert relevant currency here] I will expect nothing less than an Atticus Finch level of moral compass every step of the way.

 

[Lance Mannion]

1 minute ago, Emilie Jolie said:

There are plenty of great guys who are secure in themselves regardless of anyone's past history, theirs or others. They are the ones to look for, not those who feel they have a moral superiority over someone for any reason.

This is hilarious, it's a classic female shaming technique used against men - "Hey buddy, measure up or you're an inferior man."  LOL.

Secure men have standards and enforce them, insecure men are afraid to have standards and bend with whatever direction produces least conflict.

[TooManyDates]

9 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Not always though.  I have told this story before but a friend of mine waited six months to have sex with her boyfriend, and he dumped her shortly thereafter.

My take is have it earlier, assuming you both want to, this way should he dump afterwards, you won't be so invested.

My girlfriend was six months invested when she got dumped and was absolutely devastated. 

It's a fallacy that men will leave after early sex.  Categorically not true and I speak from experience when saying that.

However, the bolded, this is true!  But "working harder" doesn't always mean work harder for sex. 

A woman can have early sex, but still be (not play) a bit hard to get requiring a man to "work harder."

Happened to me a few years back, girl made me wait around 8-10 dated before sex, also when we were "exclusive", just to find out she was absolutely terrible in the sack and it only got worse from there.  Had I learned that on the 3rd date we could have parted ways much earlier but noooo, she met my family, we spent Christmas together etc.

[Lance Mannion]

18 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I believe society expects women to be chaste and pure and men to be caddish scoundrels.
Women have to put up with keeping themselves as virginal as possible else be seen as loose, "second hand" women and men can get away with anything they want and women "again" have to like it or lump it...
Women especially those who are relationship minded do not want a guy who has bedded enough women to fill a double decker bus, but society tells us we shouldn't mind if he has...
Society is changing but old ideas persist...

Old ideas persist because they work. New ideas are nothing more than figments of someone's imagination, untested and perfect in the imagination of their creator.

Look, the subject here is focused on women, and you're right, there are these societal expectations, but let's not pretend that this is some unfair burden that only women carry, if we had a thread on male burdens, there would be plenty and their also unfair, unfair here meaning not being required of women.

Chastity and purity are sought after in women, men being cads and scoundrels is not something which women are seeking, it's something which women tolerate. There's nothing, nothing at all, stopping women from demanding that male virginity be a prize that they want for themselves. High schools are filled with male virgins and the girls seem to avoid them and flock to the popular boys. Why not change the behavior of women and, you know, teach them to start valuing male virginity and avoid those popular boys. How do you think that would go over?

If you're upset that women let men get away with anything they want, start demanding better behavior from men and reward well-behaved men with female attention and shun badly-behaving men. Women have this choice available to them. Use it.

Society is not telling you anything, each woman has agency. She can demand an incel just for herself, there's millions of those guys.

[Emilie Jolie]

7 minutes ago, Lance Mannion said:

This is hilarious, it's a classic female shaming technique used against men - "Hey buddy, measure up or you're an inferior man."  LOL.

If you re-read my post, that's not what I said at all. 

NVM.

Have a nice day, Lance .

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, TooManyDates said:

Happened to me a few years back, girl made me wait around 8-10 dated before sex, also when we were "exclusive", just to find out she was absolutely terrible in the sack and it only got worse from there.  Had I learned that on the 3rd date we could have parted ways much earlier but noooo, she met my family, we spent Christmas together etc.

OK but that is not her fault that is yours.
YOU knew you placed a lot of importance on great sex so it is your responsibility to date women who show you the sex is good before you spend loads of time with them. Or you  go in with a mentality that sex good = great, sex not so good= I move on, nothing lost. Here you are bitterly blaming the woman for wasting your time... BUT you wasted your own time.

[Lance Mannion]

10 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

If you re-read my post, that's not what I said at all. 

NVM.

Have a nice day, Lance .

Your point was that secure men accept promiscuous women and it is insecure men who have trouble dealing with their pasts. You've got it backwards. What you're portraying is no enforcement of standards and conflict avoidance, that's not security, that's insecurity.

[Miss Spider]

1 hour ago, Taramere said:

The friend of an ex boyfriend of mine was really promiscuous.  There's no way her husband wouldn't have known about her past, since she had a tendency to boast about her sex life and describe it in often pretty graphic details.  My ex and his friends all thought she was really cool and edgy (this was a couple of decades back).  When I told my ex that she was forever trying to delve into the details of our sex life and get me to tell her what size his penis was, he didn't even seem to mind that.  She was clearly a sort of alpha female in a lot of men's eyes due to her massive amounts of self confidence, and therefore they gave her a pass. 

I remember being less than keen about the idea of meeting her, because all these guys seemed to to be looking forward to her making mincemeat of me (her being such an alpha-female and all).  So I was pretty frosty and reserved when we did meet - and I've got to hand it to her, rather than being a b**** back her reaction to that was to pursue a friendship with me with the enthusiasm of a randy rake chasing after an unattainable virgin.  A bloke through and through, except for the bodily parts.   I couldn't help liking the woman, to be honest...but yeah.  It did surprise me a bit, the extent to which men were prepared to overlook her promiscuity when you know very well that they'd judge other women ten times as harshly for sleeping with half as many men.  

Ultimately a lot comes down to confidence.  A woman who's regarded as having fairly low social status is not going to be permitted to be promiscuous without being judged very harshly for it...but women with higher social status get far more of a pass.  I mean sure, there will always be lots of people b****ing behind their backs...but the same people will often kiss up to them on a face to face basis.  The man she married seemed like a pretty straight laced, self righteous sort of character, so it must have been a case of opposites attracting.  All that said, I can't imagine for a moment that she would have made him wait for sex.  In fact she's probably the only woman 've ever met who would not only welcome being bombarded with penis pictures from strangers, but likely devise a schedule to allow herself several hours intensive viewing time.

Yea... I know what kind of woman you are speaking of and what I’ve seen def corroborates with that. Women like that really intrigue me. Because I don’t care much about stuff like that, I thought every woman was more like me.then I met women that collect D pics to fap to and cheat on their boyfriends with guys they have no intent to call ever again after the sex. 

 

Anyway, I can’t complain about a guy who cares about a woman’s past sex life . Those are his preferences. So be it.  Quite recently(and I made a thread about it) I cut off with a guy I was quite into before our first date because I found out second -hand about his past sex life/promiscuity. It’s not in line with the values I seek in guys I date. .I do think it is  incorrect to assert that all or even most value the same thing, because I don’t see the evidence, but whatever. 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[princessaurora]

16 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Yea... I know what kind of woman you are speaking of and what I’ve seen def corroborates with that. Women like that really intrigue me. Because I don’t care much about stuff like that, I thought every woman was more like me.then I met women that collect D pics to fap to and cheat on their boyfriends with guys they have no intent to call ever again after the sex. 

Women like that really are intriguing. The confidence they have to carry on like that blows my mind. A girl I went to high school with was like that. She was an insatiable nymphomaniac but everyone loved her ( accept for a few judgemental people who talked about her behind her back)  She was good friends with one of the girls in my circle and would sometimes comes out with us. Men flocked to her because she was so good at putting out fudge me vibes and she had no shame. We would watch her straight up leave the room at parties to go upstairs and do some dude she just met and then she'd come back shortly after and give us a play by play of how it was. Sometimes when we were out barhopping, she started talking up a guy and  and then turn to us and say " order me another drink, I'm going to go bang this guy around the corner. I'll be right back." Hanging around her was a guaranteed night of entertainment!  What surprised me the most was she never caught an STD. She must have used protection every time or been dang lucky. Eventually, she settled down and had a family. But to this day, she'll tell anyone about her sexcapades whose willing to listen! 

[Emilie Jolie]

I think it's fine for people to have any preference they want, too.

I'm personally not promiscuous (fairly conservative count) but I don't want to share my life story to all and sundry, so let people assume whatever they want to assume.

I don't understand why anyone but your current partner would want or need to know these things, and would only consider opening up in full confidence - not because I have anything to hide or a particularly colourful past - just because I would want a partner who shares my core values.

I've known 'conservative' people treat their partners poorly / cheat on them, I've known not conservative people to be faithful and devoted partners, etc.

I see not correlation between waiting for sex and finding yourself in a fulfilling relationship, but YMMV.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Taramere]

2 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Yea... I know what kind of woman you are speaking of and what I’ve seen def corroborates with that. Women like that really intrigue me. Because I don’t care much about stuff like that, I thought every woman was more like me.then I met women that collect D pics to fap too and cheat on their boyfriends with guys they have no intent to call ever again after the sex. 

I found her tremendously entertaining for a while, but ultimately she was a pretty toxic person.  Not in a "toxic because she's unhappy, broken and damaged" way...but just toxic in terms of the way she'd treat people.  One time we were leaving a club, and an older guy was trying to chat me up.  He was just a harmless guy trying his luck.  There was nothing obnoxious or nasty about him, but berating him for having the nerve to think he had a chance with a friend of hers was an opportunity to elevate herself at somebody else's expense.  And these were always opportunities she seized with gusto.  I'd love to say it came from insecurity on her part, but it didn't.  I'd compare it to a top hen in a coop chasing off a beta rooster, just to remind everybody of who's really in charge.  

The next time I saw her, she was raving about what a great night it had been.  I said that it had been, until she'd been cruel to that guy.  When I reminded her, she was like "oh...me bad.  I should watch my mouth".  But she was grinning, and you could see she wasn't really feeling any guilt about it.  The friendship didn't end at that point, but it was definitely a moment when I thought "there are only so many instances of that side of her that I can stomach before this friendship ends."  

When men are slagging off a woman like that and slut-shaming her, from what I've seen it's less because they perceive her as lower on the social scale to themselves - and more because they've been the butt of her cruelty in much the same way that women lower down on the pecking order are likely to encounter male cruelty for being promiscuous. I know that historically the sexual double standard has been strongly related to pregnancy and potential "who's the daddy?" issues...but I think there's also a strong element of "people with a lot of confidence and high social status are applauded for the same things that people lower down the pecking order are shamed and ridiculed for."  And while traditionally men have held more power than women, that's changing. Lance's contributions here are seem to be primarily about trying to maintain traditional dynamics that ensure men are at the right end of a power imbalance that has women on the wrong end - though he's presenting it in terms of "really, this would be much better for women...they'd be much happier."  Those of us who are old enough to remember having conversations with much older women who lived in that glorified past might see it differently.

I think we're living in times where more and more people just don't want power imbalances (whether they're based on race, gender or whatever else) to continue...even if they'd be on the right end of them.  To the topic, like you I'm in agreement with everybody who takes the view that a woman is perfectly entitled to wait until she feels comfortable before having sex with a guy - regardless of what her sexual history is.  If the guy doesn't like that, or feels insulted because he knows/has heard that she's had one night stands in the past then equally he's entitled to walk.  The flip side of exercising our rights and boundaries is that other people might respond by exercising theirs in ways we don't like...but I think as adults we all accept that, more or less.  Of course in reality, the business of two people who really like eachother trying to lay down boundaries that compete/conflict with each other is seldom as easy and straightforward a process as those who talk proudly about the rigidity and consistency of their personal boundaries would like to portray it as being. 

 

[Miss Spider]

12 minutes ago, Taramere said:

 

When men are slagging off a woman like that and slut-shaming her, from what I've seen it's less because they perceive her as lower on the social scale to themselves - and more because they've been the butt of her cruelty in much the same way that women lower down on the pecking order are likely to encounter male cruelty for being promiscuous. I know that historically the sexual double standard has been strongly related to pregnancy and potential "who's the daddy?" issues...but I think there's also a strong element of "people with a lot of confidence and high social status are applauded for the same things that people lower down the pecking order are shamed and ridiculed for."  And while traditionally men have held more power than women, that's changing. Lance's contributions here are seem to be primarily about trying to maintain traditional dynamics that ensure men are at the right end of a power imbalance that has women on the wrong end - though he's presenting it in terms of "really, this would be much better for women...they'd be much happier."  Those of us who are old enough to remember having conversations with much older women who lived in that glorified past might see it differently.

 

 

[Emilie Jolie]

I think sometimes people rely too much on hearsay or assumptions based on unchecked facts - unless you have been told from the source in person themselves, who you personally know well, it's best to assume you don't really know that person, and hold off judgement until you do.

These topics are super private and some people like to hold on to them to share with their 'special circle' only. 

'Women' can wait for sex - or not. 'Men' may have a problem with it or not. It's up to individuals to decide what is right for them.

Ultimately you move through life in a way that fits your standards, let people judge you however they want, and try not to be too bothered.

There will always be people who will match your standards; these are the people you are looking to have in your life.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Eternal Sunshine]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I do wish I was born 50 years ago. I do feel pressured to have sex early because it's "normal" now. Any movie that was made in the last 10 years, has the main characters have sex almost immediately after they start dating (often it's before). In older movies, sex would not even be part of the romance.

With OLD and meeting essentially strangers - I don't even have a desire to make out with someone, let alone have sex. If I could choose, I would wait at least 6 months to a year until I really got to know someone. However, this is viewed as "abnormal" and there are no men that will wait this long. I managed to get my ex to wait 6 weeks and later on in our relationship he told me that he thought I must have had a physical disfigurement and that's the only reason he could think of for waiting 6 weeks.

So yes, the behavior of majority of women very much affects me and men's expectations of me. This is also the case with desperation of women to get married and have children when they hit 30-35 and drastically lowering their standards. I don't want either of those things but if an unattractive man can land a super-hottie because she is desperate, why would he waste time on me..Dating is very much a free market - all about supply and demand.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Eternal Sunshine

[Happy Lemming]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

It's up to individuals to decide what is right for them.

Exactly... Each person can set his/her own time limit for having sex.

I have my own "time limit" for how long I will date a woman before I "throw in the towel" because she won't have sex with me.

For the record in my 40 years of dating, I've only had to invoke my "time limit" rule, once.

I could care less if she slept with guy "A" on the third date or guy "B" on the tenth date. 

[Miss Spider]

The problem when you view sex as transactional is that it works the other way too . So a man might ask himself the opposite question ....”men having sex earlier to avoid being used?” Because while the man is courting for a very long time,  the woman could basically be  just using him for dinners and such 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[Gaeta]

This topic makes me roll my eyes each time.

@Lance Mannion how old are you?

I know you won't believe  me but I was a BETTER partner after having lots of ONS and fwb because I had taken care of all that sexual curiosity, I had taken it out of my system, and I was 100% devoted to my partner, so much I have never EVER fantasized about another man while with him....but I can't say the same thing for when I was married in my early life, my lack of sexual experiences was torturing me and I kept wondering how it would be with other men. 

[understand50]

I think the the other thing about, ether men or women that wind up role playing to land a mate, is the damage that  the lying does to the relationship.   There have been posts from some, usually men, that go along the lines of, she said and I thought she was a virgin, and found out shes not.   Would have never married if I would have known.  The person usually take abuse as most everyone is of the mind, that it just does not matter.  Well, it does to him, or her.  They feel played. 

Now,  tying to this topic, I agree that if a woman is promiscuous, but decides not to be so with one guy, because she wants to settle down, I do not understand why she, or he, is surprised when the truth comes out and it hits the fan. It all comes down to trust.  She lied.  Can I trust her on anything?  Can I give the benefit of the doubt in the marriage when financial, sexual things come up? 

If you cannot sit down with your future mate to be, and give a account of your past, both sexual, financially, and legally,  then this is a big red flag.  Does not have to be a blow by blow account, but a good broad story.  Especially, if the "relationship" went bad and dealt some damage. As in affairs and cheating, full disclosure is the only way to go.  Better to deal with anything in the beginning, when you are both are head over  heels in love, than later, after marriage has piled up resentments.

[smackie9]

I don't ever recall ever being "used". I understood it was casual, ONS whatever and was OK with that. I probably was the one that was the user. Left a few in the dust, not being interested in perusing a relationship. If I really was I would wait about 3 weeks, feel them out, see what their intentions are. The player type of personality is kind hard to hide from me.

[understand50]

8 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

This topic makes me roll my eyes each time.

@Lance Mannion how old are you?

I know you won't believe  me but I was a BETTER partner after having lots of ONS and fwb because I had taken care of all that sexual curiosity, I had taken it out of my system, and I was 100% devoted to my partner, so much I have never EVER fantasized about another man while with him....but I can't say the same thing for when I was married in my early life, my lack of sexual experiences was torturing me and I kept wondering how it would be with other men. 

Well, good.  Were you honest with your love of life?   Was he OK with everything you did.  Also what was your age?   I am pushing 70, and if I was alone, I would be much more understanding of a lovers past then then in my 20s.  Also we are all different.  Some just do not need to play the field.  If two people meet who just do not care about past sexual life, great.  I wonder about your first husband, and why that marriage fell apart.  My general rule, never used it for myself, but have advised many friends, on second, and third marriage and lone term relationships, is that anything that will affect the marriage or relationship should be disclosed.  Any hidden time bombs.  Did time in prison, did  a little homemade porn that floating around, have maxed out credit card, went bankpurt.   Point is, each should be able to go into the relationship with eye open.  A sexual past is part of the equation.  You, know the other may be just fine with it, but they should be in the know.

 

 

[Weezy1973]

Men trying to control women’s sexuality has a long history, and is still very much the rule in some backwards cultures. Fundamentalist Muslims will kill their wife if she was raped by another man, the shame is so great. And of course female genital mutilation is still common in some places.

Luckily though, most of the world has moved beyond these extremes, and hopefully thinly veiled slut shaming such has been going on in this thread, will fade too. 

[Gaeta]

27 minutes ago, understand50 said:

Well, good.  Were you honest with your love of life?   Was he OK with everything you did.  Also what was your age?

None of my serious partners have ever asked me a resume of my sexual life before them. If they asked a particular question, I'd answer honestly. I would not date a man that thinks it's important to know how many partners I had at 55...I would have answered that question at any age to tell you the truth. That being said I don't come from a conservative society. I don't know *anyone* that would be concerned with their partners 'number'.