We might be kids but WE STILL HURT

[Nostalgic]

No one is immune from hurt. None of us are more to be pitied or vilified. This is life. Would you really require that people deny their adult life so you can pretend that fairy tales come true? Perhaps children need to grow up realising that adults LOVE eachother. And maybe they don't love the people they had children with.

 

I know I love someone who has children that he really really loves and cares about, with someone else. He doesn't want to hurt them, and yet there is a lot of pressure on him that, as he has created those children... he must now spend the rest of his life pretending he has NO NEW loves... that the woman who is their mother is his one true love, and that there is no way that he could possibly exist other than pretinding to love her (their mother) forever, when he actually loves me.

 

I can't see how this is a moral victory for you, or for me. What I see is people seeking for the 'morally' OK love, when actually there are a WHOLE LOT of loves existing that might or might not suit YOU (and you're so deserving, why?), and might suit YOUR MOTHER, FATHER, or either of their LOVES...

 

I believe in LOVE, rather than MORALITY.

 

 

Ok sorry but...

 

You love someone with children--sorry to tell you this but HELL YES those kids are MORE IMPORTANT that you--at least they should be. If you knew this person had prior commitments when you got involved with him, how can you expect your love to be put before them?

 

Its not about ""pretending he has no new loves". As another poster says, if the feelings for you are so strong, he should at least have the deceny to officially end things w/ his wife. A household where one of the parents is lying and sneaking behind his/her family's back is no way for a child to grow up.

 

Kids are a lot more perceptive than we give them credit for.

[whichwayisup]

Why are you saying that we shouldn't judge and throw more sh-t? What the HECK do you think you're doing by questioning the sincerity of the poster? Sheesh!

 

I know. That's like saying kids feelings and thoughts don't count. Only cheaters' counts and should be taken under consideration. WTF.

[whichwayisup]

Yuck...can this be deleted?!

 

Why should it be? As awful as it reads, and is meant to read, it is how the poster feels. I think it shows how truely warped one's mind can get during an affair. How clouded and unclear the mind works.

[Hot Coco]

I totally agree it should not be deleted even though I think it's just warped. Especially "I believe in love rather than morality." WTF!? So does that mean you believe in love in lieu of morality? WOW! Hard one to wrap my mind around.

 

 

And whichway, of course...only the cheaters and their playmates' feelings count. You're right. Because if that wasn't true then they wouldn't be doing what they're doing in the first place. I just love the reasons they come up with to justify their actions though.

 

I'm also VERY curious about something. Why is it that these SAME people who lash out like this and try to justify their sleazy behavior, are on other threads saying how miserable they are and counting days of NC? If it's so right and so great why not keep doing it?

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it, right? If it feels good do it!

[Nostalgic]

Why should it be? As awful as it reads, and is meant to read, it is how the poster feels. I think it shows how truely warped one's mind can get during an affair. How clouded and unclear the mind works.

 

 

Agreed. I changed it before I even read your post:cool:

[Ladyjane14]

I believe in LOVE, rather than MORALITY.

 

How does one experience REAL LOVE without morality?

 

Real love is kind. It is considerate. It is honorable. Is it just the stigma of the word "morality" which drives people to pit themselves against it?

 

I'm bewildered.

[Hot Coco]

How does one experience REAL LOVE without morality?

 

Real love is kind. It is considerate. It is honorable. Is it just the stigma of the word "morality" which drives people to pit themselves against it?

 

I'm bewildered.

 

VERY WELL SAID Ladyjane! I don't think the concept of REAL LOVE is understood here.

[Hot Coco]

And why should there be a stigma attached to the word morality? (And I think you're right LJ that there is.) Is it a new dirty word?

[megabit15]

And why should there be a stigma attached to the word morality? (And I think you're right LJ that there is.) Is it a new dirty word?

Morals are invaluable when you use them to live your own live. The stigma is that a lot of moralists don't stop there. They insist that only THEIR morals are valid, vehemently criticize anyone who disagrees with them, and when that fails, try to legislate their morality or wage war in order to get the world to comply with their view. They attempt to strip others of their basic right to think for themselves and border on ridiculous judgmental control freaks. My thinking on this type of morality is "If you want to live my life, pay my rent". I do not comply with other people's morals or principles as if I were in the army, and quite frankly, I'm sick of them trying to shove it down my throat! (OK - that was about political moralists)

 

Morals are a very personal and individual decision. Some people, like me, struggle and then learn from their mistakes. Some people never learn and and are content to live their lives causing a wake of destruction. Some simply have different morals and principles than others - they really believe that their actions are okay and can't understand why people are upset. To each his own.

 

LadyJane - Yes, mature love is based on similar principles that do not cause pain or shame. I've come to realize that for me personally, anything else is pleasure seeking and selfish pursuit of personal gratification.

 

Hot Coco - A MM and OW share similar principles and morals, but they cause pain and shame. The W and MM obviously do not share similar principles if one cheats and lies while the other does not. That also leads to pain and shame. Unfortunately, the W often finds out the hard way. She then tries to convince her H to live life by her morals, which often he clearly cannot or does not want to do despite his claims otherwise. She always has the choice to face reality, protect her children, and leave. (unless the political moralists outlaw divorce)

 

To the Original and Unregistered poster - thank you for presenting a third and often unheard perspective on the destructiveness of philandering. It is most unfortunate that some of us are raised by immature and defective parents. Hopefully you will be able to get some counseling for the pain this has legitimately caused you.

[Hot Coco]

I think you might be surprised that I completely agree with you...yes, even on the political aspects of this question.

 

Nothing to add...very well stated.

[megabit15]

I think you might be surprised that I completely agree with you...yes, even on the political aspects of this question.

 

Nothing to add...very well stated.

Thanks Coco. That was nice of you to say.

[Sami_D]

Ok sorry but...

 

You love someone with children--sorry to tell you this but HELL YES those kids are MORE IMPORTANT that you--at least they should be. If you knew this person had prior commitments when you got involved with him, how can you expect your love to be put before them?

 

Its not about ""pretending he has no new loves". As another poster says, if the feelings for you are so strong, he should at least have the deceny to officially end things w/ his wife. A household where one of the parents is lying and sneaking behind his/her family's back is no way for a child to grow up.

 

Kids are a lot more perceptive than we give them credit for.

 

I totally agree. I have never been happy having an A. It was ended (by me) yesterday.

 

I'm sorry that my way of expressing what I was feeling and thinking about this came out looking like I have no feelings for C caught up in this situation. That's completely not the case.

[Betrayed Child]

Just wanted to thank people for their kind words and understanding.

 

Yes, I am late teens, although my father's affair apparently started when I was a whole lot younger.

 

Some of my post sort of comes from a letter I have been trying to write to my father for literally months. Trying to explain to him how I am feeling about the whole situation. In the first few weeks after it all blew up, I tried to talk to him on the phone about it, but got nowhere. If I was crying, or tried to tell him how I felt, he would get angry with me and tell me that all this has nothing to do with me. Said things like, “For ****'s sake, I don't want to hear this.”

 

WTF? These are my REAL feelings. All I wanted was for him to HEAR me. My grandmother (his mother) says that guilt is preventing him from listening to me. She said that he felt bad and so lashed out at me verbally to shut me up. She also said that she has been telling him for years that he should make more of an effort to get involved with our lives and be more of an active parent. She told him that you get out of people what you put in, and if you don't make much of an effort with your children, you can't expect to get much back from them. Now she says, “Well, I guess he will have to learn this lesson the hard way.” Finally she suggested I write to him. She said if I gave the letter to her, she would pass it to him when he visited her. It's still unfinished and shoved in the back of a drawer.

 

The first time I tried to write it, it was full of so much pain it barely made any sense. Lots of swearwords and serious ranting. So I rewrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it. I keep putting it away for a few days, going back to it, revising it. I have done a lot of thinking about what specifically about his affair hurts the most, breaking it down into all the tiny details. In a way it has been helpful to clarify in my head exactly what upsets me.

 

I have also done a lot of reading up on the internet on affairs. I found a place (not this site) full of mistresses portraying themselves as victims and hating anyone who doesn't like affairs. They particularly hate children who are upset about an affair. They label us as “nasty”, “spiteful”, “manipulative” etc. They use lots of swearing and abusive language about kids whose lives have been ripped apart, and who are not happy to welcome daddy's mistress into the family with open arms. But what did they expect?

 

If my father and this woman had started a relationship AFTER getting divorced from my mother, I would like to think that I would support him in that, no matter what my own feelings were. They could have chosen to wait until he was divorced, which would have minimized our pain. But they both chose to start this relationship while he was still firmly married. So I will not condone their behaviour just to make him feel better about what he has done although even as I write that, I really think he genuinely doesn't care how I feel about anything at all. I think he would really not be bothered if he never saw me again.

 

One thing that made me post this on this forum was a post from another betrayed child. I had been scrolling through the pages of posts, saw it and couldn't believe the responses. I just wanted to say to people: hey, we are people, too, and being younger doesn't mean our feelings should be trampled over and/or dismissed as inconsequential.

 

One of the worst things is it is affecting me in ways I never anticipated. For example, I started feeling really bad about my own relationship. I had been with my boyfriend for 6 months and we were getting along great. In the first few weeks after D-Day (does that D stand for 'discovery'?) my boyfriend gave me a shoulder to cry on, listened to me, helped me through it. And how did I repay him? I started not to trust him, started picking fights with him over stupid things and pushing him away. Finally I broke up with him and it broke my heart to do it. It took a lot of talking with friends and a couple of relatives before I finally understood why I'd done it. It was partly because deep down inside I think it's not safe to get close to people. My relationship with my father has taught me that if you give someone your love and trust, there is a very real risk that they will stomp all over it and that hurts. I think subconciously I pushed my boyfriend away because I feared that he would betray me at some stage. I feel so stupid and pathetic over that. But I still feel like I never want to have a relationship with anyone, ever. It's the safest way to get through life with the minimum of pain. Loving and trusting people is too big a risk.

 

I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone with my posts. That was not my intention. I was trying to state my feelings without reducing myself to mindless abusive ranting and I hope that's what I have done. The truth is, I don't think my father will ever listen. I think if I sent him a letter he would read it, dismiss it as crap, tear it up and never think of it again, which is why it's still hidden away in a drawer. Maybe one day he will realise that simple biology is NOT a reason to keep someone in your life. I think that bonds are created between people by them actively loving and respecting each other. The fact that it was his sperm that fertilized the egg I grew from is not enough of a bond to make me want to take all the pain that would come from having him in my life. The only thing that matters is how people treat each other.

 

In some way posting here has helped, though. My father may never listen and really hear me, but you people here have, so thank you.

[Betrayed Child]

Just one more thing (sorry for the double post).

 

Yes, everyone has the right to find true love and happiness. I'm not saying my father should have continued living a lie with my mother for years, denying himself happiness "for the sake of the children". He always had the option to divorce. If he had only told my mother he no longer wanted to be married to her, then she too could have moved on, found someone to truly love her and made a new life for herself too. He chose not to.

 

Everyone has the right to build a new life for themselves if their present life isn't working and is causing them to be miserable.

 

But they also have a responsibility to FINISH THEIR OLD LIFE FIRST in a sensitive way, and not hurt, decieve and betray the trust of those they are supposed to care for.

 

Thanks again. Sorry for butting in on your forum.

[Hot Coco]

No one is immune from hurt. None of us are more to be pitied or vilified. This is life. Would you really require that people deny their adult life so you can pretend that fairy tales come true? Perhaps children need to grow up realising that adults LOVE eachother. And maybe they don't love the people they had children with.

 

I know I love someone who has children that he really really loves and cares about, with someone else. He doesn't want to hurt them, and yet there is a lot of pressure on him that, as he has created those children... he must now spend the rest of his life pretending he has NO NEW loves... that the woman who is their mother is his one true love, and that there is no way that he could possibly exist other than pretinding to love her (their mother) forever, when he actually loves me.

 

I can't see how this is a moral victory for you, or for me. What I see is people seeking for the 'morally' OK love, when actually there are a WHOLE LOT of loves existing that might or might not suit YOU (and you're so deserving, why?), and might suit YOUR MOTHER, FATHER, or either of their LOVES...

 

I believe in LOVE, rather than MORALITY.

 

Yes, Sami the post above did make it look like you didn't really have any regard for the children involved. I applaud you for ending it though. I'm sure that took guts. It is so much easier to say no to the affair when you find out the guy is married, BEFORE you get emotionally involved, than to have to do it later. We ALL make mistakes. It sounds like you realize that now. You should be commended for that.

[Torn Up]

Cheating hurts children. Why do you all deny this?

 

 

Well, I for one do not deny the pain felt by the children of BOTH the MM and OW. I wish I could - wish I could bury myself in the comfort of denial, it would make this situation so much easier. It's no wonder that DENIAL is the most utilized of the defense mechanisms...helps people to cope with guilt, fear, sorrow, anger, etc. Problem is, denial is a temporary "fix"...a bandaid on a condition that needs surgery. Eventually, reality demands to take stage and that's when the deep pain takes root.

 

Betrayed, I completely understand where you're coming from. I am the OW...a position I thought I'd NEVER see myself in. Basically, I was lied to - was told that he and his wife had reached a mutual agreement to end the marriage, but was waiting for their 17-year-old daughter to graduate, turn 18 (this coming April) and off to college. Told me that his wife was also having an affair, that they both agreed to go their own way, but would remain "mindful" of each other's feelings and that of their daughters. In other words, they decided to "keep up the home front" for the sake of the daughter.

 

And then came the night I met the wife. A night that I will most likely never forget. Through this "meeting," I learned that she never agreed to a divorce, and denied having an affair. However, he had some hard evidence that she is/was having an affair (she called in sick several times at work and her whereabouts are still unknown today, as well as emails from her lover as well as those written by her). Because I was aware of this, I believed him and got involved. By the time I learned the truth, I had fallen in love with him.

 

In my presence, the wife begged him to stay with her...listing all the things she's done for him throughout their 18 years of marriage - told him over and over again how much she loved him. At one point, she turned to me and begged me to have compassion. I think of all the things said that God awful night, this statement drove the dagger in to my heart more than any other. Because, despite my role as the OW, I am a VERY compassionate woman, probably to a fault. He, in return, reminded her repeatedly that the marriage has been bad for years, that he didn't love her, hasn't for years, and was in love with me. And everytime he told her this, she would say, "I hear your words, but I don't believe you." And there I stood, feeling as though the entire demise of this marriage was MY fault.

 

I wanted very much to dislike this woman, but the opposite took place. I liked her, but I found myself pitying her as well. She cried, she begged, and at one point threatened to vomit. He, on the other hand, stood with folded arms while listing all the things that killed this marriage and continued to repeat that he was in love with me. And the sad part was...they weren't hearing each other. They kept turning to me to "interpret" what the other just said. And so, here I am...the OW...playing the role of "mediator" for the two. Bizarre? You betcha!

 

And the frosting to this explosive cake? The 17-year-old daughter showed up after the free-for-all between us three - very hostile, yelling, crying as expected. When he told her he loved her, cared about her, she yelled, "Yeah, you say you care about me, but you don't care about US!" And she was absolutely correct on that score. A part of me wanting to hug her because I felt so horrible for her, but I knew I was the wrong person to do that...because, after all, I was the "whore" threatening her family unit. Not true, of course, because this marriage was doomed with or without me, but it was much easier for her to accept that I was the cause rather than her father not loving her mother. And it could easily be "fixed" with the disposal of me.

 

My son, on the other hand, has been hurt by this as well. You see, believe it or not, I AM a woman of morals, and have been my entire life. You mentioned the word 'hypocrite." Yep, that's a accurate description of how I know feel. I taught my son at an early age to "do what's right." To "refrain from hurting others when possible." And then he witnesses me getting involved with a married man. He's fully aware that I was basically lied to, but that doesn't completely erase the fact that I've done something completely out of my character. He loves me, and he's trying as best he can to understand it...but it has hurt him regardless. My son has always had a healthy respect for me. He has watched me work hard, struggle to raise him by myself, (without child support), and strive to do right by others. So you can well imagine the state of confusion he's in.

 

I have since broken off with the MM. However, he continues to email me, leave little gifts on my desk at work, and on my car...and is now threatening suicide. Three days ago his wife came home and found him with a tightly wrapped plastic bag over his head and he was on his way out when she pulled it off. He is severely depressed, has given up hope. She claims he is "mourning me." Just what I needed....MORE guilt heaped on my shoulders.

 

You are absolutely right. Infidelity can only bring pain and misery to all who are involved. There are no winners, it seems. Only losers.

 

I feel for your pain and I do hope coming here and venting has helped...even if just a little. I do encourage you, however, to seek counselling with your anger. Sounds like the wound runs deep and it is my hope you can find a way to purge it to a tolerable level.

 

Take care and hope to hear more from you.

 

~Torn~

[whichwayisup]

Nice post Torn. You see the whole picture and understand ALL the pain that each person goes through because of an affair. Even though you were part of the cause of the pain, it's good that you recognize it.

 

I only hope that OW learn from your mistake and just don't even bother getting involved with MM.

 

Only thing I will say is your pain isn't the same pain as a child. They are not at fault one bit and had NO say in it. Just hit them blindsided. For that, it makes it even sadder...

[Torn Up]

<<Only thing I will say is your pain isn't the same pain as a child. They are not at fault one bit and had NO say in it. Just hit them blindsided. For that, it makes it even sadder...

 

Agreed. It wasn't my intention to compare my pain with the child of an affair so much as it was to attempt opening the door for a broader view of affairs.

 

This child is suffering...horribly, and some of it appears to be from a lack of understanding WHY or HOW affairs take place. It isn't always the result of selfishness or lack of morals. Sometimes, it is the result of deceit, depression, and HUMAN mistakes. It's so difficult for the kids...how can they possibly grasp all the complex dynamics behind an affair? They can't, they can only feel pain and betrayal.

 

So, I guess in my way I was attempting to shed some light through my experience in hope that it would bring a little clarity to a painful situation, and also, in hope that others will heed my warning.

 

I'm in a lot of pain...a LOT of it...and will NEVER allow this to happen again.

 

~Torn~

[megabit15]

This child is suffering...horribly, and some of it appears to be from a lack of understanding WHY or HOW affairs take place. It isn't always the result of selfishness or lack of morals. Sometimes, it is the result of deceit, depression, and HUMAN mistakes.

Thanks for sharing your story. I identified with a lot of what you wrote since I was an OW and MW cheater many years ago who also learned from my mistakes.

 

At this point in my life, I believe that people lie and deceive to avoid the perceived consequences that the truth may cause. It's not about a lack of morals, rather a misplaced principle that says my instant gratification is more important than the pain that lies cause me or anyone else. To me this seems selfish and childish.

 

That is my opinion, but I'm certainly open to other perspectives on this.

[JayKay]

My siblings and I watched our parents' miserable marriage unfold over a 33-year span of time;

 

They fought, they were cold to each other, they had difficulty communicating

 

My father cheated numerous times

 

My father told my mother, "It's sophisticated to be able to sustain more than one 'love' relationship..."

 

My mother, in an effort to be 'sophisticated' started an affair of her own.

 

Surprise, my dad didn't like it.

 

She ended her relationship.

 

Not suprisingly, he continued to carry on a clandestine affair (I didn't know about it until I was an adult but my younger sister figured it out)

 

My mother started having a mysterious drinking problem

 

Finally my dad walked out on my mom, very suddenly, without warning, and in a very cold manner

 

 

 

As children, we realized that the emotional climate in our house was exceedingly tense; I didn't realize until I was older that I had no clue as to how to trust anyone. I also could not form close bonds with anyone and often sabotaged friendships and perfectly healthy relationships.

 

I was attracted to 'bad' boys, emotionally distant and disaffected men.

 

As a teenager, I was smart-mouthed, sarcastic, under-achieving, promiscuous and jaded.

 

Odd, I knew nothing about my parents' affairs yet, but was acting just like them.

 

The main lesson life seemed to deliver was; Attach Yourself to Nothing. Trust No One. Be the Pursued. Never Be the Pursuer.

Whenever I did fall 'in love' it was disasterous, as ultimately I was cheated on, lied to or betrayed.

Men who fell in love with me were ridiculous. I cheated on them willfully. I lied freely. I felt no shame. I felt incredibly smart and sophisticated.

 

Children absorb more than you think.

[Hot Coco]

Yes, I agree that "It isn't always the result of selfishness or lack of morals. Sometimes, it is the result of deceit, depression, and HUMAN mistakes."

 

It's true.

 

As far as it not being a question of lack of morals but one of selfishness and immaturity, well I must admit I've been one to say/think it's the fomer BUT I think there is validity to that argument.

 

Really though, what does it matter how we label it. The bottom line is that it still hurts people and is wrong.

[newbby]

originally posted by HOTCOCO: This post by this kid should be REQUIRED reading for all the cheating spouses as well as for the OW/OM. Of course it would all fall on deaf ears since all they care about are "my needs" and "my happiness."

Originally Posted by newbby

somehow i dont think the original post was written by a young kid

 

i was not questioning the sincerity of the poster

[sylviaguardian]

Wow, some of these posts are so sad -especially the original poster and torn's. It's strange because I really feel for both of you and I am the BW. Torn - you seem to be a very sensitive woman.

 

I won't add to this by posting about the BS's hurt - I am sure you have all heard it before. It strikes me though, that the pain felt by the OW, the BS, the children is all the same thing. It comes from trusting your heart to someone and finding out that that person is a liar. It comes from the broken dreams and the loss of faith in people.

 

What a waste of time affairs truly are.

[Delia]

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

 

Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They came through you but not from you and though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

 

-KAHLIL GIBRAN

 

My mother had an affair with another man. I found out that it had been going on since I was about 11 yrs old, but I only found out about it in my last year of high school.

 

Both of my parents have no idea how their destructive marriage and my mother's affair have destroyed all of our lives, including my life and my sister's. They just assume that we are managing ok, but they have no idea. I always thought that their divorce would make things better but it has not. My father one time, actually a few times phoned my mother's new place from a pay phone and threatened to kill her. She called the police on him, and they ended up showing up at our house in the middle of the night, and I had to wake him up so they could tell him that if he did it again, he would go to jail. The police have been over before a few times when my parents were married, due to domestic disputes.

 

I feel numb about all of this. I would rather hate both of my parents and be hateful and angry but I just feel nothing. The only person who I hate with every ounce of my being is the SOB who my mother had an affair with. Mostly because he's cheated on his past two wives and left their children. What a piece of sh*t he is.

 

I agree with everyone, that people who cheat are selfish, because there is always that moment where you could have said no, where you could have turned around and said no, there is another way out.

 

I tell myself sometimes that my parents are not just my parents, but also flawed human beings, who need love and attention. But that's not enough. We can't be there to be the parents when we were only kids ourselves. They are in the position of responsibility and control. If I was a parent and going through these problems, I would do something about it, see a marriage counsellor, anything instead of taking the easy way out. Children don't have that option, because they are powerless.

[tinktronik]

well said betrayed child,couldent have done it better myself.