Miss Spider Posted December 23, 2020 Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) Sorry, poppy, I have to go to on a date tonight. But I enjoyed the conversation & hope to continue . Thank you! Edited December 23, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes
poppyfields Posted December 23, 2020 Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said: So, you are shifting your goal. You are leaving behind the goal of wanting to be with him and detaching yourself from that outcome. However you are not detaching yourself from all outcomes. You are making process towards the outcome you want...Whatever that “more”...But perhaps with a different person I was saying that I do not think it is possible to completely detach yourself from a particular outcome and still value it. Not really, because I could find that "more" with another man and be happy (happier than I was with the previous man) but STILL remain detached from the outcome with that man. I find more value in the journey, I honestly don't know how else to explain it. Again, I do understand what you're saying, and I don't judge anyone for not sharing my mindset. I know it's off the beaten path and trust me, I have had men and others argue with me about it, accuse me of lying or whatever, more than I care to remember. But it is truly how I feel. Edited December 23, 2020 by poppyfields 1
poppyfields Posted December 23, 2020 Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said: Sorry, poppy, I have to go to on a date tonight. But I enjoyed the conversation & hope to continue . Thank you! Have fun! It's only 3:30 pm here and I am still at work! Not doing much (except posting on LS, lol) better get back to it! Edited December 23, 2020 by poppyfields 1
Miss Spider Posted December 23, 2020 Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said: I think also if you were able to do it, the accomplishment of dating this guy would feel less... but if you detached from the desire of dating him or even just valued yourself more, dating him wouldn’t matter. deep s*** No, puppy I think we actually agree with each other completely but we are getting to twisted up in semantics. You are saying that the goal is to just have the more and not associated to any particular man... and that is common and quite normal way to go about it. I think the issue came another in the above I quoted. I specified that if she detaches from the outcome of dating him in particular, the outcome of dating him will not be important to her at all.. And she may not even care to go about the process of remaining in his life in some way either, they can be friends, but her goal will shift and she’ll be focusing on a new guy who hopefully feels the same about her...The misunderstanding may have come about when I try to turn this narrow incident into a broad philosophical topic about Will and desire. I should probably stop doing that and leave that in philosophical forums And thank you so much! Enjoy your day at work. OK I really need to go now lol Edited December 23, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes 1
salparadise Posted December 24, 2020 Posted December 24, 2020 Whew! I just read it all . The one thing I'm sure you are being honest about to yourself is having unresolved feelings for him. You talk about the chemistry, him taking care of you and accepting you for who you are when you have trouble with that yourself. You talk about not having good boundaries... and then you tell us (and yourself) that you're "working on yourself" and want to be "just friends" while he dates other women, and that you're okay with that. And you're dating others too, but still having strong feelings for him. And that's just hitting the high spots! Here's what I think... you're infatuated (at a minimum) with the guy, but for some reason he backed away even after he was the one pushing for a relationship. You're trying to protect your heart (and ego) by trying to convince yourself that it doesn't matter and that you're okay with whatever, when the reality is that it stings like crazy to get this close to something potentially wonderful, that you really want, and then for it to be elusive, confusing and spiked with rejection. I think you're both afraid to allow yourselves to be vulnerable and take the risk, which is absolutely necessary in order to love and be loved. So you get close and it's intense and scary, so you both push away, saying let's be friends to allay the fear of getting fully invested. Then you both start dating others to further escape and dilute the scariest possibility, which is to open your heart and let someone in. Ideally both people would be secure enough to be vulnerable, but otherwise it takes at least one. Granted, you can't control how someone else reacts and behaves, and if his only trick is to push away, then you have to either accept it... or put yourself out on a limb even further to try to calm his fear and coax him back. When both are in full self-protection mode it just ends up being a painful, confusing mess. Your veneer of open-mindedness, that is acting like you're just fine being "friends" is a strategy to protect your ego without letting go. Then you infer that by giving it a week or two to resolve, you may rid yourself of feelings and pick back up as friends. I have no idea why you'd think that would work. You can't be "friends" with someone you're crazy about, sleeping with, and desiring a relationship with. And dancing around in the ambiguity of the words "friends" and "working on myself" simply does not change what it actually is. There really aren't any halfway measures. 1
poppyfields Posted December 24, 2020 Posted December 24, 2020 13 minutes ago, salparadise said: Whew! I just read it all . The one thing I'm sure you are being honest about to yourself is having unresolved feelings for him. You talk about the chemistry, him taking care of you and accepting you for who you are when you have trouble with that yourself. You talk about not having good boundaries... and then you tell us (and yourself) that you're "working on yourself" and want to be "just friends" while he dates other women, and that you're okay with that. And you're dating others too, but still having strong feelings for him. And that's just hitting the high spots! Here's what I think... you're infatuated (at a minimum) with the guy, but for some reason he backed away even after he was the one pushing for a relationship. You're trying to protect your heart (and ego) by trying to convince yourself that it doesn't matter and that you're okay with whatever, when the reality is that it stings like crazy to get this close to something potentially wonderful, that you really want, and then for it to be elusive, confusing and spiked with rejection. I think you're both afraid to allow yourselves to be vulnerable and take the risk, which is absolutely necessary in order to love and be loved. So you get close and it's intense and scary, so you both push away, saying let's be friends to allay the fear of getting fully invested. Then you both start dating others to further escape and dilute the scariest possibility, which is to open your heart and let someone in. Ideally both people would be secure enough to be vulnerable, but otherwise it takes at least one. Granted, you can't control how someone else reacts and behaves, and if his only trick is to push away, then you have to either accept it... or put yourself out on a limb even further to try to calm his fear and coax him back. When both are in full self-protection mode it just ends up being a painful, confusing mess. Your veneer of open-mindedness, that is acting like you're just fine being "friends" is a strategy to protect your ego without letting go. Then you infer that by giving it a week or two to resolve, you may rid yourself of feelings and pick back up as friends. I have no idea why you'd think that would work. You can't be "friends" with someone you're crazy about, sleeping with, and desiring a relationship with. And dancing around in the ambiguity of the words "friends" and "working on myself" simply does not change what it actually is. There really aren't any halfway measures. Holy cow, I wish I were as smart or aware as some of the folks on this forum, geez! Lol But hey, at least I understood it. Wow salparadise that was extremely well said! The thing about vulnerability --
poppyfields Posted December 24, 2020 Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) Question for salparadise if you're still reading. Below is a snip from a post I wrote earlier in the thread: >>I have never known a man who feels crazy and intense chemistry with a woman to only want a friendship unless he's a commitmentphobe/ avoidant....<< sal, what you wrote about getting close, feeling too vulnerable so pushing away, dating others to escape and dilute (i.e avoid) the scariest of possibilities, is that not the behavior of a man (or woman) with commitment fears/issues?? And what would you suggest a woman (or man) do when encountering a person like this? I wouid think that talking it out, openly and honestly, would push such a person further away. Such a conversation is too close, too intimate, when what they're needing and desiring is distance, emotional and otherwise. Edited December 24, 2020 by poppyfields
salparadise Posted December 24, 2020 Posted December 24, 2020 8 hours ago, poppyfields said: >>I have never known a man who feels crazy and intense chemistry with a woman to only want a friendship unless he's a commitmentphobe/ avoidant....<< sal, what you wrote about getting close, feeling too vulnerable so pushing away, dating others to escape and dilute (i.e avoid) the scariest of possibilities, is that not the behavior of a man (or woman) with commitment fears/issues?? And what would you suggest a woman (or man) do when encountering a person like this? It certainly can be. I think avoidants come in two favors, fearful or aloof, and it may be that aloof is actually just an additional layer covering the same underlying condition. The ability to tolerate vulnerability comes from having been properly loved as a child... and this means wholehearted, unconditional parental love, not merely approval for good performance. These people [usually] grow up having an intrinsic sense of self-worth that is pretty much unshakable. If one intrinsically believes in his/her own worthiness, then loving and being loved is congruent. They can tolerate the ups and downs of dating, breakups, and rejection because their sense of self is internal, and not dependent upon someone else's validation. But if their sense of worthiness is not fully formed (or mostly absent) then they will need the external validation of their other object in an unhealthy way. Their homeostasis depends on attachment. If they believe that they are essentially unlovable, they present a facade designed to be what the other-object wants, and they live in fear of being unmasked, and their flawed, broken, unlovable core revealed. I've described this as an either/or scenario, but in reality I think it's a matter of degrees.
Author amygirl908 Posted January 6, 2021 Author Posted January 6, 2021 Sorry for the delayed response I had family in town for the holidays and have just in general been busy. @poppyfields @Shortskirtslonglashes - I really enjoyed reading your conversation that sparked from detaching yourself from the outcome. I think there is another layer entirely and that is expectations. You can still desire a certain outcome but when you start placing expectations on the outcome I think that's when you stop enjoying the journey. Just my two cents haha On 12/23/2020 at 6:36 PM, Shortskirtslonglashes said: Sorry, poppy, I have to go to on a date tonight. But I enjoyed the conversation & hope to continue . Thank you! How was your date!!?? On 12/23/2020 at 7:27 PM, salparadise said: Whew! I just read it all . The one thing I'm sure you are being honest about to yourself is having unresolved feelings for him. You talk about the chemistry, him taking care of you and accepting you for who you are when you have trouble with that yourself. You talk about not having good boundaries... and then you tell us (and yourself) that you're "working on yourself" and want to be "just friends" while he dates other women, and that you're okay with that. And you're dating others too, but still having strong feelings for him. And that's just hitting the high spots! Here's what I think... you're infatuated (at a minimum) with the guy, but for some reason he backed away even after he was the one pushing for a relationship. You're trying to protect your heart (and ego) by trying to convince yourself that it doesn't matter and that you're okay with whatever, when the reality is that it stings like crazy to get this close to something potentially wonderful, that you really want, and then for it to be elusive, confusing and spiked with rejection. I think you're both afraid to allow yourselves to be vulnerable and take the risk, which is absolutely necessary in order to love and be loved. So you get close and it's intense and scary, so you both push away, saying let's be friends to allay the fear of getting fully invested. Then you both start dating others to further escape and dilute the scariest possibility, which is to open your heart and let someone in. Ideally both people would be secure enough to be vulnerable, but otherwise it takes at least one. Granted, you can't control how someone else reacts and behaves, and if his only trick is to push away, then you have to either accept it... or put yourself out on a limb even further to try to calm his fear and coax him back. When both are in full self-protection mode it just ends up being a painful, confusing mess. Your veneer of open-mindedness, that is acting like you're just fine being "friends" is a strategy to protect your ego without letting go. Then you infer that by giving it a week or two to resolve, you may rid yourself of feelings and pick back up as friends. I have no idea why you'd think that would work. You can't be "friends" with someone you're crazy about, sleeping with, and desiring a relationship with. And dancing around in the ambiguity of the words "friends" and "working on myself" simply does not change what it actually is. There really aren't any halfway measures. I think it's interesting how many people have almost faulted me for my personal development. I'm not "working on myself" like I'm in some sort of denial and I really am ok with just being friends with him. I gained perspective and a new mindset by taking this as a learning experience - Instead of letting myself get crushed and beaten down I looked at this as an opportunity to grow and build myself up. I've spent so long searching for something "more" in all aspects of my life. I had so many expectations for my future and I wasn't paying attention to the journey and constantly disappointed. I looked within myself and found out that I've had the "more" the whole time. Since I've been out of touch, spending time with other friends and family, the friendship is less important to me. He's still helping me with some work stuff but otherwise not really in contact much and that's ok. 1
Miss Spider Posted January 6, 2021 Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) It went really well Thanks for asking! It’s interesting and on topic... because we are sort of friends too... just taking it slow... so not really a date, even though he likes me romantically. We’re spending Friday and Saturday together. I’m really excited. He makes me squeee More on what I said before and what you have said, yes, insofar as you can, it is great to detach yourself from any expectations and just enjoy the ‘present’ . But it is almost impossible to be 100% in the present. allow me to get a little too deep once again. When we experience something, it takes a moment for us to process it through our nervous system. By the time we processed it, it is already in the past. But we can still enjoy it by reflection. I think this is what most people mean by “present“. Basically, just being as present as we can possibly be. Not worrying about things too far in the past or too far in the future. Just detaching yourself from expectations and having fun in the moments that you are experiencing. In general, I think people ought keep bigger goals in perspective though. Because if you live too much in the present you aren’t building for future and may cause it to suffer as a result. Like example of person who wants to be doctor, if he just enjoys the moment, he won’t go through rigorous task of studying to reach the fulfillment of achieving his goal. even if he will have more fun in the ‘present’. Not only may his future suffer, but possibly the people that he may have helped. A similar example would be someone that wants a long-term, meaningful relationship. If you are spending too much time with someone who probably is not as interested on you you may enjoy the moment, but it won’t be lasting. True, you can’t guarantee anything but you will be pretty sure you will not achieve your goal of a long-term relationship because they are thinking long-term and you aren’t focusing on building that with anyone who does. This is especially true if you are on a more stringent timeline like fertility window and you want kids, but it applies to anyone. I hope you can find the balance and live the best and most meaningful way that you can. I think that is a big goal for many. You seem to be very thoughtful and onto a very good start. Best wishes to you Edited January 6, 2021 by Shortskirtslonglashes
salparadise Posted January 7, 2021 Posted January 7, 2021 On 1/6/2021 at 2:31 PM, amygirl908 said: I think it's interesting how many people have almost faulted me for my personal development. I'm not "working on myself" like I'm in some sort of denial and I really am ok with just being friends with him. I wouldn't fault you for personal development. I think everyone needs to try and become more aware and in touch with thoughts, feelings, and anxieties... and everything. What I was taking issue with was the ambiguous phrases: "friends," and "working on myself." You employ those as if everyone knows precisely what you mean, but the actuality is that they're clichés (and could mean anything), and they make us wonder if you're avoiding central issues, or if you have no specificity in your thinking. Friend = someone you were dating, phukking and have feelings for, but who rejected you and you refuse to go away. Working on myself = clean and lubricate, replacing components, updating firmware. No big deal, but try to say what you mean.
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