Can this work

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Yes that is a good point too.
Women do tend to hate that. 
The good close platonic male friend who turns out to be as predatory as any other guy...
He sneaked in, gained her confidence and fooled her into letting her guard down...

...............and did nothing but be a gentleman.

[ZA Dater]

Just now, elaine567 said:

No guy likes other single orbiter males sniffing around their gf, you wouldn't like it either.

I would not care. Honestly that level of control is totally pathetic in my mind, doing so would suggest you do not trust the person.

[elaine567]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

...............and did nothing but be a gentleman.

I was not speaking about you. Just the concept in general.
But saying that, not to say she didn't think that way. hence the pull back

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I would not care. Honestly that level of control is totally pathetic in my mind, doing so would suggest you do not trust the person.

You'll learn.
People can be very fickle.

[ZA Dater]

Just now, elaine567 said:

You'll learn.
People can be very fickle.

Really would never bother me because if it did it would imply I never trusted the person to begin with and I do not trust very easily to begin with.

Basically all I can do is sit on the sidelines which reminds me of the K scenario and I did not really enjoy that situation that much either to be honest, granted I did see her fairly often and she often came to events as my +1. She basically told she was coming to events as my +1 after I created a "consulting" role for her.

[ZA Dater]

Another thing, most women and guys who spend any time around me realize within 5 minutes I am clueless at dating, flirting, seduction etc. SO a less of a threat guy you probably do not get than me. The guys will be figuring out how to ask ABC out and I will have nothing to add so its becomes clear quickly or they will be regaling everyone with their tales of conquest and I will have nothing to add there either and not much interest either. 

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Really would never bother me because if it did it would imply I never trusted the person to begin with and I do not trust very easily to begin with.

Basically all I can do is sit on the sidelines which reminds me of the K scenario and I did not really enjoy that situation that much either to be honest, granted I did see her fairly often and she often came to events as my +1. She basically told she was coming to events as my +1 after I created a "consulting" role for her.

When people reject you that is your cue to keep walking and never look back.
K is hanging around because you pay her to do so???

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Bottom line is I am never going to the guy the people I like will ever pick EVEN if we get along well.

Yes, this is the bottom line. You like women who aren’t interested in guys like you. I learned this lesson in high school when I had a crush on the captain of the cheerleading squad. And she of course was interested in the quarterback of the football team. 
 

So if you actually want a meaningful relationship, and I’m not sure if you actually do, you’re going to have to drop the fantasy of dating a worldly, charming, model. 
 

But hanging onto “getting what you want” will definitely mean you’ll never get into a relationship, which I suspect subconsciously, due to extreme fear of being vulnerable and hurt, is what you want. 

[ZA Dater]

Just now, Weezy1973 said:

Yes, this is the bottom line. You like women who aren’t interested in guys like you. I learned this lesson in high school when I had a crush on the captain of the cheerleading squad. And she of course was interested in the quarterback of the football team. 
 

So if you actually want a meaningful relationship, and I’m not sure if you actually do, you’re going to have to drop the fantasy of dating a worldly, charming, model. 
 

But hanging onto “getting what you want” will definitely mean you’ll never get into a relationship, which I suspect subconsciously, due to extreme fear of being vulnerable and hurt, is what you want. 

You are right unless I can have a relationship with someone I find attractive, the concept has zero attraction to me at all, absolutely none, in fact it would be something deeply unpleasant and yes I'd be better off being alone than having that sort of relationship. Though you do in the above support my superficial idea. 

Like many, I'd love a life with someone next to me but not on terms where I do not find the person attractive, if that's all I can have then yes I want nothing at all. I do not believe in having a relationship for relationship sake which is what you seem to be suggesting. I understand and respect this might work for some people where apparently things like attraction are not important but this would never ever work for me, I might as well just have one attractive friend because I would get more out of that friendship than I would a relationship with someone I do not find attractive.

There are lots of things I need to decide if I want to experience them or I can sacrifice them. 

So no if I cant date that worldly, beautiful to me person then dating has nothing to offer me at all. Which I guess seeing I have nothing of value is perhaps fitting.

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

When people reject you that is your cue to keep walking and never look back.
K is hanging around because you pay her to do so???

You try that when you have a very lonely life......I still be her friend irrespective. I see a lot less of K now than what I once I did and yeah I guess there was a very minimal economic incentive, the lovely thing with her, like this lady I can sit down with her and just talk about anything and get warmth back rather than disdain. She bought me a gift which is the first time any non family member has ever bought me anything.

[BaileyB]

45 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The sheer amount of time I spent with her would have suggested otherwise fairly early on

I do agree. I think most women would make that same assumption. 
But, if she is beautiful, and she has her choice of men, and she is grieving the loss of her husband... she may well have taken the “friendship” that you offered because it served her purpose at the time and she had no intention of dating you. If she didn’t see you in that way, it may never have occurred to her. Some people have no problem using someone in this way. Beautiful women, are probably used to men hanging around. It becomes less about you intend then about her needs/interests. She may have been relieved to have found a male who wasn’t pursuing her hard - and then when you revealed your true intentions, she realized you are no different than all the others. If she is as kind as you think, she probably realized her mistake and that’s when she backed away...

Edited April 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I do agree. I think most women would make that same assumption. 
But, if she is beautiful, and she has her choice of men, and she is grieving the loss of her husband... she may well have taken the “friendship” that you offered because it served her purpose at the time and she had no intention of dating you. If she didn’t see you in that way, it may never have occurred to her. Some people have no problem using someone in this way. Beautiful women, are probably used to men hanging around. She may have been relieved to have found a male who wasn’t pursuing her hard - and the when you revealed your true intentions, she realized you are no different than all the others. It becomes less about you intend then about her needs/interests. If she is as kind as you think, she probably realized her mistake when she realized that you were interested in a romantic way and that’s when she backed away...

Or she knows how badly I am damaged by dating I was not seen as much of anything really. Yeah I think she was relieved as she complained to me about men waning to jump her every day. I never really moved out of the friend thing, all I really said to her was I enjoyed spending time with her, how much it meant to me to enjoy time with her and her son and that I pretty much live a very lonely life so actually spending time with people was really great. 

We had discussed a lot of things about life and I put forth my theories about many of the things I tried to provide comfort to her because she is this happy smiley person despite what she is going through, five minutes with her is like spending 5 minutes in the sun, you instantly feel better about life and everything is just  a brighter and happier. It is this quality which strikes me the most.

I never actually went as far as asking her on  a date, I did say it would be good to spend more time if you are free. Remember I am completely clueless at flirting so that I did not do.

Furthermore I was told "I am very lucky to have a friend like you" to which my rather cheeky response was "I think I am the luckier one".

I cant properly explain to the forum but with her I could just be me, it was not about chasing this and chasing that and worrying about this and worrying about that or thinking about if I say this or say that, I just was truly authentic and for someone who thinks about everything this was very nice. 

I do not think I did anything wrong here at all. And at the end of the day I would not know how to seduce her anyway.

[BaileyB]

^^^ No, you were a good friend. 
A friend, with an agenda. And when she learned of that agenda, which coincidentally timed with a new love interest, that meant she had to pull back. 

Both a friend and a romantic interest will say “I really enjoy spending time with you...” The difference being, the romantic interest will follow it up with - “I really like you. Will you go out with me sometime, on a date.” They make their interest known, in a clear and direct way. Good learning, for next time.

Unfortunately, she had eyes for someone else. And for that reason, you were never considered as a possible romantic partner. 

[Weezy1973]

41 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Though you do in the above support my superficial idea. 

I support the idea that you’re superficial and attracted to superficial women. For almost everybody attraction isn’t and either or proposition (except perhaps when you’re young and inexperienced). There are levels of attraction. While one person might strike you as a 10 upon meeting them, another might strike you as an 8 or a 5 and all over the spectrum. Most would prefer a meaningful connected relationship with someone they initially deemed a 7 then just wallow in loneliness holding out for a 10 that will never materialize. 
 

But for some reason you’re different. And I suspect it’s a defense mechanism to keep you away from being vulnerable. 

[ZA Dater]

20 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

But for some reason you’re different. And I suspect it’s a defense mechanism to keep you away from being vulnerable. 

No really I just need to feel something to find someone attractive and that very seldom happens.

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Trust me accountants and finance people make terrible mechanics....been there done that!  Car clubs are dead end here, mostly frequented by people married and in most cases with kids and in many cases far older than me. Better for business networking than dating.

Cars are a passion and a distraction from what I don't have in other aspects of life, funnily enough this lady does actually like cars, comes from a "car family", again very rare.

Same here, but maybe a lesser extent.  In the US car clubs almost always have people who work on them...guess it depends on the cars.  Have friends who are into the vintage cars, like 1970s Charger, then those more into the mod Japanese street racers, different scenes but both work on their own cars, even if they shouldn't    Then there is the rental club for high end cars, like Bentley's, Maserati's etc. a different one each month, all you need is to make the escrow amount. Most of those guys are lucky if they can even tap into 1% of the cars potential, all show, no go.  I flirted with it for a time but realized I'd lose my license if I did   and likely my escrow, all it takes is to hit one of the many pot holes around here.

I'm more a motorcycle guy anyway, that is a whole other world here in the US.

Are you in the world of financial people and accountants?  If so , not surprised by a lot of your experience, that side of the C-suite was always kind of that way.

[ZA Dater]

25 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

 Good learning, for next time.

Unfortunately, she had eyes for someone else.

Not going to be a next time because this is always the case. I'll just window shop in future. Maybe if I knew I had anything decent to offer I'd keep going but the odds don't favour me over the conventionally attractive guys.

[BaileyB]

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not going to be a next time because this is always the case. I'll just window shop in future. Maybe if I knew I had anything decent to offer I'd keep going but the odds don't favour me over the conventionally attractive guys.

Well then, close this discussion if you have no plans to continue dating. Let’s not go around and around the points of discussion...

This kind of self pity is very unbecoming. 

[Weezy1973]

51 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

No really I just need to feel something to find someone attractive and that very seldom happens.

That’s because you’re the only attracted to a tiny percentage of the population. And no “maybes”. Like most people.

[trident_2020]

34 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

This kind of self pity is very unbecoming. 

Not for ZA apparently.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

Same here, but maybe a lesser extent.  In the US car clubs almost always have people who work on them...guess it depends on the cars.  Have friends who are into the vintage cars, like 1970s Charger, then those more into the mod Japanese street racers, different scenes but both work on their own cars, even if they shouldn't    Then there is the rental club for high end cars, like Bentley's, Maserati's etc. a different one each month, all you need is to make the escrow amount. Most of those guys are lucky if they can even tap into 1% of the cars potential, all show, no go.  I flirted with it for a time but realized I'd lose my license if I did   and likely my escrow, all it takes is to hit one of the many pot holes around here.

I'm more a motorcycle guy anyway, that is a whole other world here in the US.

Are you in the world of financial people and accountants?  If so , not surprised by a lot of your experience, that side of the C-suite was always kind of that way.

I am indeed in the world of finance. 

As for cars I lean toward Italian cars and US muscle cars.....I think the rarest of all ladies is the one interested in cars!

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

If I never find anything ever again I will at least know for a time I had exactly what I wanted and that is enough. Its better to have had something I really wanted for a short time than to never have it at all.

Ok, but you said earlier:

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I understand and respect this might work for some people where apparently things like attraction are not important but this would never ever work for me, I might as well just have one attractive friend because I would get more out of that friendship than I would a relationship with someone I do not find attractive.

So if you're perfectly content with just meals, walks on the beach, shopping trips, and no intimacy, what does is matter if she's attractive or not? This is just friendship. You keep going on and on about how you don't want to "date" someone unattractive, but if the height of your contentment is (in your mind) "dating" someone and doing nothing involving romance, sex, or intimacy, which as I alluded to before, is not dating, then who cares? None of that requires the person to be attractive, and certainly not to your heightened standards. It seems oddly superficial for someone who spends so many paragraphs decrying superficiality. So if "all you ever wanted" is painless, run of the mill conversations and excursions, can't you do this with just about anyone? K, other friends of yours, even this woman? Maybe I missed something, but this is all very confusing to me. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by normal person

[elaine567]

40 minutes ago, normal person said:

So if you're perfectly content with just meals, walks on the beach, shopping trips, and no intimacy, what does is matter if she's attractive or not? This is just friendship. You keep going on and on about how you don't want to "date" someone unattractive, but if the height of your contentment is (in your mind) "dating" someone and doing nothing involving romance, sex, or intimacy, which as I alluded to before, is not dating, then who cares?

Exactly.
They could be fat, fifty or frumpy or could even be a man, as long as they were friendly, warm and interesting company.
Friends come in all shapes and sizes.

[SumGuy]

59 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am indeed in the world of finance. 

As for cars I lean toward Italian cars and US muscle cars.....I think the rarest of all ladies is the one interested in cars!

Not in the US at least, I hear that NASCAR has many women fans, not sure it is the cars or drivers, but not my world.

Well of course in the world of finance money and/or looks will be all that matters.  Finance seems to love to equate money with value in every regard, no surprise there, and they have the money to make sure they keep the rest of the world out, often with a gate even.

People that don't share their view shy away from them.  You need to go more to a Phish concert , hang out with artists and musicians or scientists and engineers, or the founders of companies not just the business school executives.  

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, normal person said:

Ok, but you said earlier:

So if you're perfectly content with just meals, walks on the beach, shopping trips, and no intimacy, what does is matter if she's attractive or not? This is just friendship. You keep going on and on about how you don't want to "date" someone unattractive, but if the height of your contentment is (in your mind) "dating" someone and doing nothing involving romance, sex, or intimacy, which as I alluded to before, is not dating, then who cares? None of that requires the person to be attractive, and certainly not to your heightened standards. It seems oddly superficial for someone who spends so many paragraphs decrying superficiality. So if "all you ever wanted" is painless, run of the mill conversations and excursions, can't you do this with just about anyone? K, other friends of yours, even this woman? Maybe I missed something, but this is all very confusing to me. 

I have very few friends. Attraction does matter because even if I does not happen I'd like the potential to be there. Like some here have said "well she might become attractive over time" conversely I spend lots of time with someone I do not find attractive and she becomes very attracted to me, then I am in an awkward situation, one I do not want to be in.

For no matter how remote I'd rather there be potential.

I am quite happy to admit I am superficial, how could I not be when the losses I face most of the time are due to that.

Edited April 16, 2021 by ZA Dater