Can this work

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

So you paid to take her away for this weekend?

Why not, I like giving, be it the guy begging. She has had a tough few months wanted to try give her a nice experience and I did manage to do that. That's all I wanted to do.

[ZA Dater]

Perhaps unsurprisingly communication has changed somewhat to arms length which is an unfortunate side effect whenever I project my feelings which in turn just makes me withdraw further. 

Make no mistake I admire those who get this right, so much of what makes it right we don't have control over. I just somehow need to try keep some degree of positivity.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Why not, I like giving, be it the guy begging. She has had a tough few months wanted to try give her a nice experience and I did manage to do that. That's all I wanted to do.

This woman obviously has no problem attracting or accepting the attention and affection of men. In this case, she has two men circling and vying for her attention. And knowing that she has a young child, there is apparently at least one other man who has recently exited...

54 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Perhaps unsurprisingly communication has changed somewhat to arms length

No doubt, she realized you had misrepresented your intentions. She is perhaps putting some distance between you, as she does not want to encourage you when she knows she is not interested romantically. This is the risk you take when you make your feelings known, if they are not reciprocated the other person will usually establish a more obvious boundary. 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

This woman obviously has no problem attracting or accepting the attention and affection of men. In this case, she has two men circling and vying for her attention. And knowing that she has a young child, there is apparently at least one other man who has recently exited...

No doubt, she realized you had misrepresented your intentions. She is perhaps putting some distance between you, as she does not want to encourage you when she knows she is not interested romantically. This is the risk you take when you make your feelings known, if they are not reciprocated the other person will usually establish a more obvious boundary. 

So it would have just been better to do what I wanted to do and do nothing. Her husband passed away last year.

I will just need to find some peace again, how I am not yet sure because it will be back to empty weekends. 

Am quite angry at myself for believing.

[ZA Dater]

I just have to live with yet another loss. Honestly if I fell off the planet tomorrow I'd be ok with it, in a lot of ways this is just the culmination of years of disappointment. I can't go back and change what is.

I really do not know what to do next. It's easy to walk away from something that isn't good, however I do concede even before this piece of writing I made no secret of that fact I enjoyed shared company. Maybe I just need to find some sort of happy ground being alone most of the time with some great time spent moments. In the last 5 or so weeks I got to feel normal which was good but clearly it's not meant to be.

I wish many things like everyone else but than anything I wish I had experienced this 10 years ago. Honestly nobody wants me now and each passing year it just gets worse, at what point do I put a permanent end to this. When is enough enough.

There is nobody around me who genuinely cares how I feel so long as I am there for them they don't care.

I am trying to find positives but really struggling and I am running out of ideas. Also I have to pretend all is well, I have to try be cheery.

The sense of uselessness is overwhelming.

Edited March 31, 2021 by ZA Dater

[BaileyB]

I’m sorry, I don’t think I was aware that her husband had passed away. 

Would you consider counselling. If you are truly this despondent, I would encourage you to reach out for support. 

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I’m sorry, I don’t think I was aware that her husband had passed away. 

Would you consider counselling. If you are truly this despondent, I would encourage you to reach out for support. 

I'll just live with it just like I have the last 29 years of disappointment. Trudge off the field and take my seat, watch everyone else enjoy what I am apparently worthless at. 

I really hope I don't have many more years of this. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I'll just live with it just like I have the last 29 years of disappointment. Trudge off the field and take my seat, watch everyone else enjoy what I am apparently worthless at. 

You can continue to wallow in self pity then, it is entirely your choice. 

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I will always live with a huge amount of regret I never got to

1: Experience this earlier in life

2: Wont be able to find it again

1. You can’t do anything about the past. Dwelling on it is a waste of time and energy. 
 

2. You never actually had “it”. You still have a possible new friend. What you lost was the “what if” fantasy. And it’s better to lose that fantasy sooner rather than later. Or better yet, make your intentions known early on so as to not have the opportunity to indulge in the fantasy in the first place. 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

1. You can’t do anything about the past. Dwelling on it is a waste of time and energy. 
 

2. You never actually had “it”. You still have a possible new friend. What you lost was the “what if” fantasy. And it’s better to lose that fantasy sooner rather than later. Or better yet, make your intentions known early on so as to not have the opportunity to indulge in the fantasy in the first place. 

Nah I do not really have 2 anymore either so its a complete loss sadly. What I had was actually really good, what I have now is nothing at all, no change there really. Its very tough having nobody around who actually cares, all of you are all I have.

The truth is I just am not good enough, as always. Good enough to be a friend useless enough to be anything more. That's really how it goes. This is why I just sit in the corner and hardly ever go out, why, for more this over and over again more of the time. 

Throughout my life nobody builds me up they always put me down, there is never any encouragement, just constant not good enough, constant disappointment, not matter how hard I try its always the same. Every day is a fight and when I had someone actually talking to me, engaging me, making me laugh, me making her laugh it meant a LOT. Someone I really liked for the change versus people I grit my teeth and try force myself to like, to no avail. Yip cry over spilt milk I suppose.

 But you know what maybe some of us are just destined to live lonely miserable lives where we accomplish nothing we want and everything we do not want.

I suppose at least I have some good memories, cold comfort when I sit here on my own, my cat died and he was the only living creature who offered up any affection at all. I realised when I was crawling around playing with a baby how much of life I am going to miss out on, this entire experience has been fantastic but just further made me realise I am never to going to experience what I term "love" in the most broad way. I am capable of giving it just will never receive it.

Just about the only thing I can do to make me feel maybe 10% better is work through the night.

 

[Yosemite]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:23 PM, ZA Dater said:

the reality I have effectively "lived" with her for probably two weeks cumulatively.

I don't see how any adult woman could stay over at a man's house that much and not believe that there's romantic interest on his part.

He's paying for weekend getaways and all the expenses for her and her baby when she stays over and she never suspected romantic interest? No way.
 

Quote

Perhaps unsurprisingly communication has changed somewhat to arms length which is an unfortunate side effect whenever I project my feelings

What you believe/sense about the situation is unreliable because you're an extremely negative person and you have no experience...so we need to look at concrete evidence.

There's something going on here otherwise she wouldn't have "lived" with you for so long (unless she's literally homeless.) So ask her out or ask her to spend the weekend with you again, if she says no, then you can go into your negative routine. But for right now I think there's still a chance.

ETA: I went back and read the beginning of this thread. My guess is that one of the OP's friends is selling the OP as a safe place for these young girls to stay while they're in town.

It sounds like this woman may think of it as a business arrangement which is why she brings her baby and doesn't expect him to have romantic interest.

 

[elaine567]

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

my cat died and he was the only living creature who offered up any affection at all

Get another cat. I have been there more than once and whilst it is not the same early doors and no other cat can quite take the place of a beloved feline, you learn to love it in the same way. I didn't know you had a cat.

So she is keeping you at arm's length, what did she actually say?

[ZA Dater]

Instead of me moaning

1: Would the following be o.k for a friend event, lunch at a botanical gardens?

How far do I reign the conversation in or do I just keep communicating the way I have in an open and transparent way? I feel good about being transparent and not over thinking every single thing I say, over thinking is a big enemy.

2: I like buying gifts, I suppose this is a no no. Again you need to understand this from the view point I never have anyone to buy anything for, the baby is turning one soon so I can buy him something.

3: How much do I share of my thoughts and feelings, not in terms of dating but in terms of everything that is going on in my life at the moment.

4: I suppose just keeping going along the same way I have an not let myself get carried away too much and if i am asked about other guys just be diplomatic, which I have been doing.

5: Not so much a question but what I like here is I being challenged to think less and say more, instead of over thinking and there is no awkwardness from me which is rather nice for the change, I seem to have put that one side fairly consistently with her.

6: Do these sort of friendships really actually work, clearly there is something nice enough about me to spend time with me and communicate with me, from the outset I tried to spend as much time with her as possible, surely women see this and take not of it or is it normal. My intention was always friends but this other guy brought out the competitive side of me hence there being some competition. 

7: I have learnt a lot here, not least of which being confidence which is much better now when I remove all the emotions but I still have severe doubts over my worth in the greater scheme of things. I am reminded how good it feels to give.

8: If you were me what would your approach be bearing in mind my history? I am working out like crazy and the results are pretty good so far. 

9: The biggest problem I have is massive self doubt, how do you regain a sense of "yes I can do this" , "yes I know what I am doing" Whenever I put my toe in the water I always this sense its easier to mess things up than it is to get things right. 

Thanks to everyone for reading my hugely depressing sad posts. I really do not feel good but I have to try my best to believe in some good, lets see what tomorrow is like. Lastly what I have found interesting here is I have been able to be me, a person I have not been for a long time, opened myself up a lot more than for a long time and yes I am not the normal sort of guy but I felt alright being that guy when I was able to laugh with her, sometimes at me. 

Unfortunately so much of me is jaded by horrible experiences which are not easily forgotten, especially not when nobody around me provides any encouragement, which is why I provide encouragement to people I meet day to day. Never underestimate the power of positive encouragement or even a positive word, all of us need encouragement at some point, we need praise and when you do not get either its very hard to keep moving forward when being rejected over and over again. 

So when I have really positive experiences like this it does me a LOT of good, like drinking water after walking in the midday heat. Makes me actually feel alive and not going through an endless struggle.

 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Yosemite said:

I don't see how any adult woman could stay over at a man's house that much and not believe that there's romantic interest on his part.

He's paying for weekend getaways and all the expenses for her and her baby when she stays over and she never suspected romantic interest? No way.
 

What you believe/sense about the situation is unreliable because you're an extremely negative person and you have no experience...so we need to look at concrete evidence.

There's something going on here otherwise she wouldn't have "lived" with you for so long (unless she's literally homeless.) So ask her out or ask her to spend the weekend with you again, if she says no, then you can go into your negative routine. But for right now I think there's still a chance.

ETA: I went back and read the beginning of this thread. My guess is that one of the OP's friends is selling the OP as a safe place for these young girls to stay while they're in town.

It sounds like this woman may think of it as a business arrangement which is why she brings her baby and doesn't expect him to have romantic interest.

 

Its an extremely complicated arrangement but no there is no business angle to it at all. She has spent days with me doing all sort of generally mundane things like shopping but its the level of engagement when she talks to me I am the centre of the conversation which is very different compared to what I have had in the past, the level of engagement is much higher. There is genuine interest in what I do and how I feel, again very different.

I am probably seen as a safe guy but that does not explain a lot of the above. Maybe kindness begets kindness I do not know.

Paying for things, in 20 years I have never ever let a date pay for anything. 

The two bold things might give me an hour or so more sleep so thank you for understanding that. Its very, very hard to read things when you have no experience so its very easy to default to negative because when it comes to these sorts of things its all I know. 

All I can do us just be me, I am going to try spend more time with her and see what happens. All I can do is show her as nice a time as possible and if I can do that I do not really care what happens because at least I would have done my best, which probably does not make a lot of sense. She knows I have no experience so yes I probably am quite a safe alternative she has already told me "so many guys just want to jump me".

[Yosemite]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its an extremely complicated arrangement but no there is no business angle to it at all.

What is the arrangement? Why won't you say exactly what it is? How did you meet her? Why is she staying with you?

Quote

Do these sort of friendships really actually work, clearly there is something nice enough about me to spend time with me and communicate with me,

It depends on the reason that she's staying with you and how you met.

If you met on a dating site, then she may be open to a romantic relationship. But it sounds like a business relationship or she's trying to break into the business in your city and your friend offered you up as a place to stay. If that's the case, it's almost impossible that she's romantically interested...there's an extremely high chance that she's just being polite.

[ZA Dater]

17 minutes ago, Yosemite said:

What is the arrangement? Why won't you say exactly what it is? How did you meet her? Why is she staying with you?

It depends on the reason that she's staying with you and how you met.

If you met on a dating site, then she may be open to a romantic relationship. But it sounds like a business relationship or she's trying to break into the business in your city and your friend offered you up as a place to stay. If that's the case, it's almost impossible that she's romantically interested...there's an extremely high chance that she's just being polite.

Friend introduced me to her we were both helping her with something and she became quite close with me. First time I let her I was super shy, ended up chatting for 5 hours about everything. From then on we pretty much chatted daily even when she flew home.

[Yosemite]

30 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Friend introduced me to her we were both helping her with something and she became quite close with me. 

Why did you describe this as extremely complicated? 

Were you helping her with something related to her business or how she makes a living? 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Yosemite

[chillii]

l realize you were enjoying finally having whatever this turned into and of understood that may be only friends , and you decided you'd take the risk . But ahh , big things coming out here with her now , the husband just passing , it hasn't even been very long no way she's even ready for anything serious , think you said she told you that at the start. Single mum model looks , unfortunately there's usually a guy willing to hop through whatever hoops she was in need of and she knows damn well all she has to do is be nice to him, especially if there's no relationship or sleeping with her pressure. And now she just turns around and goes out with this other guy that's done nothing, unfortunately it's all a pretty common scenario . Got my doubts about her goodness tbh and it's a bit late now but that's all why it's better to go all in and cop whatever result first up tbh.

As far as not knowing how to do anything no one knows how to do anything , we come out of school useless. We have to learn how to do things, life and jobs and we try and try again, that's life learning and adapting never stops 80yr olds tell you that, 50yr olds retrain start life over every day. Relationships or getting there no different so to lay down and die at only in 30s is a pretty weak call your not even half way through but eh, it's your life.

Edited March 31, 2021 by chillii

[Weezy1973]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

8: If you were me what would your approach be bearing in mind my history? I am working out like crazy and the results are pretty good so far. 

I’ve already told you many times. You have to be as straightforward as possible about your romantic interest in her. Keep in mind you have no control over how she feels about you on a romantic level, so trying to twist yourself into a pretzel to try to get her to see you that way is pointless. All you can do is acknowledge how you feel, and let her know. Then let the chips fall where they may. And sure keep working out if it makes you feel good. It’s certainly healthy so win / win. 

 

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

9: The biggest problem I have is massive self doubt, how do you regain a sense of "yes I can do this" , "yes I know what I am doing"

By far the key to confidence is not “I can do this” or “yes, I know what I’m doing” but “I’m going to try my best, and if I fail, I’ll be fine, learn, and try again in a different way.” Again you have no control over how anybody else sees the world (including you) so when you fail, it’s not personal. Has nothing to do with you. 

[basil67]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

1: Would the following be o.k for a friend event, lunch at a botanical gardens?

How far do I reign the conversation in or do I just keep communicating the way I have in an open and transparent way? I feel good about being transparent and not over thinking every single thing I say, over thinking is a big enemy.

Yes, a lunch with a friend at botanical gardens is a lovely idea.  As to how to communicate, you be yourself, but just make sure that your goal is simply friendship.

2: I like buying gifts, I suppose this is a no no. Again you need to understand this from the view point I never have anyone to buy anything for, the baby is turning one soon so I can buy him something.

Bring a contribution to whatever it is you're doing.  Like a dessert or cheese plate if they are hosting dinner.   

3: How much do I share of my thoughts and feelings, not in terms of dating but in terms of everything that is going on in my life at the moment.

As friends, share it all.   Dating is an open topic.  The only limit being when one realises that they are leaning on their friends too much and needs a therapist to take the bulk of the load.

4: I suppose just keeping going along the same way I have an not let myself get carried away too much and if i am asked about other guys just be diplomatic, which I have been doing.

If you are a genuine friend, there's nothing to get carried away about.  And yes, be dimplomatic about their relationships....unless they are telling you they are being abused.

6: Do these sort of friendships really actually work

Yes, they can work if both parties don't have romantic interest in the other

8: If you were me what would your approach be bearing in mind my history? I am working out like crazy and the results are pretty good so far. 

Working out is to help you feel better about yourself.  But it's really neither here nor there when it comes friendship.  Or relationships for that matter.  

9: The biggest problem I have is massive self doubt, how do you regain a sense of "yes I can do this" , "yes I know what I am doing" Whenever I put my toe in the water I always this sense its easier to mess things up than it is to get things right. 

This sounds like you're talking about dating rather than friendship.  Or do you genuinely feel that you also mess up friendships?

Unfortunately so much of me is jaded by horrible experiences which are not easily forgotten, especially not when nobody around me provides any encouragement, which is why I provide encouragement to people I meet day to day.  

You're now talking about who you wish you were - not who are actually are.   You words about those who you don't relate to (men who date successfully and women you don't want to date) are extraordinarily rude.  If nothing else, try to start being honest with yourself.  Ask yourself this: When I am judgmental about others who I don't relate to, why should I receive encouragement from those who don't relate to me?

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’ve already told you many times. You have to be as straightforward as possible about your romantic interest in her. Keep in mind you have no control over how she feels about you on a romantic level, so trying to twist yourself into a pretzel to try to get her to see you that way is pointless. All you can do is acknowledge how you feel, and let her know. Then let the chips fall where they may. And sure keep working out if it makes you feel good. It’s certainly healthy so win / win. 

 

By far the key to confidence is not “I can do this” or “yes, I know what I’m doing” but “I’m going to try my best, and if I fail, I’ll be fine, learn, and try again in a different way.” Again you have no control over how anybody else sees the world (including you) so when you fail, it’s not personal. Has nothing to do with you. 

So I did something unusual for me I asked her via voice note if she wanted to meet up this weekend, that I had a nice place I would like to show them, after the usual voice note she sends me telling me about her day and what is going on, she did tell me to enjoy my weekend, the over thinking me took that to mean "I am not seeing you" but I will ignore that thought.

You are right I just need to see where everything lands but also consider I do not have a lot of control as to how things might land. The last part is probably correct to but it never really feels like that, especially when there is never a good outcome, then it does feel very personal. Its easy to say when you have a few good successes but very hard to accept when you have none at all.

What I would like to know is where I am supposed to find these people to keep trying on considering the very specific things I find attractive....I suppose that is my issue and my problem for being that specific.

If she sees me this weekend great, if not I'll just sit at home on my own and try make the best of that.

[basil67]

We have no control as to how things land.  If someone isn't into us, then it's all over.   Yes, it's true that you have no success, but it's also true that you're determined to search for something which is nigh near impossible...so failure is par for course.   

When it comes to how to find the people of a particular type, you do so by being one of those people.  Be invited to the same events, be comfortable in their crowd, enjoy the same activities, build rapport with the guys who are part of that group.  Be one of the beautiful people yourself.  

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

 

Here is the thing on the last point, I know a lot of players and I need to expand on this to give you an idea why I detest what many of them do. Sure, hooking up is a two way street but when they sit there and extoll things or blatantly lie about who they are, what they do in order to take her home and then the next day describe to anyone who will listen the evenings activities in graphic detail, I find it hard to respect guys like that. And I know a few.

Yes, I do not find overweight people attractive, is there anything wrong with that? Lots of people do not find skinny people attractive either. My frustration with this is the result of ONLY matching with overweight people. The VAST majority of my dates have been with people I did not find physically attractive BUT I went along anyway to give them the benefit of the doubt because dating is ostensibly that, go and see if you actually connect with the person, well it is to me anyway.

Telling me I need to go on abc number of dates with someone I do not find attractive is pointless because I wont find them anymore attractive after date 5 than I did after date 1. Fingers cannot be pointed at me saying I have never been out with overweight people because that is simply not true. Do I treat them any differently no, and for what its worth K is not slim, never has been. 

My approach to women is old school, manners and open doors, pull out chairs, that sort of thing, that is how I was raised and when I sit listening to some guy laugh about his activities and who is better and who is sleeping with who I just feel totally out of it. 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, basil67 said:

We have no control as to how things land.  If someone isn't into us, then it's all over.   Yes, it's true that you have no success, but it's also true that you're determined to search for something which is nigh near impossible...so failure is par for course.   

When it comes to how to find the people of a particular type, you do so by being one of those people.  Be invited to the same events, be comfortable in their crowd, enjoy the same activities, build rapport with the guys who are part of that group.  Be one of the beautiful people yourself.  

Which will realistically never happen so I am always going to be at the window looking in. I think maybe attraction could grow over time (I am told this by people on this very forum). I do not look for what does not exist, I know it does exists but the odds never favor me, much like they never ever favor me in anything I do.

I am never going to build rapport with the drinking party fun type of guy, its telling I haver very few friends at all. Part of me wonders if that inability to make friends just makes dating even harder. Again here she is more that homebody, part of the same culture as me which helps hugely but ladies like this are very rare in SA, they all tend to get married very young, kids by 25 and in many instances divorced by 35 with tons of baggage. 

The value I guess I can take is I have no control, I need to remind myself of that and remind myself often. Being alone now just feels a lot worse than I did before.

[elaine567]

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think maybe attraction could grow over time

Attraction only "grows" with familiarity in people who are actually attracted or who maybe are attracted.
Those who are definitely not attracted or who see a fatal flaw in that other person will never be attracted, so nothing will ever "grow".
It seems to me,  most people make the attracted/not attracted decision pretty quickly and they tend to not change their minds very often, unless for some reason they are desperate to find someone/anyone.
Have you ever changed your mind about someone you found unattractive?
I guess not.
The problem for you with this platonic friendship thing you have going is that she as a woman can keep this going for a long time, without it progressing any further.
Women often love having male best friends especially as you are always treating her. You give, she takes...
She is quite comfortable discussing her date(s) with you as why wouldn't she? You are her bestest friend, and that will continue as she continues to date other guys.
Being the best friend however usually becomes increasingly painful for anyone who really wants "more".