Can this work

March 30, 2021

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

They all only want one thing, that's as obvious as day.

Are you so sure about that?

And again, why are you getting upset over having the same outcomes as 95% of regular men?

Edited March 30, 2021 by basil67

March 30, 2021

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Are you so sure about that?

Sorry, of course you're sure.

Let me clarify: regarding men who are successful in dating and sex, how does his approach change between when he's wanting sex vs wanting a respectful relationship?

March 30, 2021

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Sorry, of course you're sure.

Let me clarify: regarding men who are successful in dating and sex, how does his approach change between when he's wanting sex vs wanting a respectful relationship?

The level of BS and feigned interest increases exponentially when the former is the objective versus the latter. At the end of the day the only person at fault here is me, nobody else, its my own fault I do not have the requisite level of attraction or skills. Nobody else can be blamed but me.

Why am I upset because its another total loss, I'd like to think most men get to date people they find attractive, else why would they bother dating at all? Yet again I have a giant kick in the face. Just a FYI I am feel especially sour today.

The deeper issues are really around the fact I have missed out on most of the very good things in life, that much has become very clear to me and that hurts more than being kicked in the face, I have missed out on just the small things when people spend time together, the sense of loss is bigger than I could have imagined and that really hurts. You compare booking into a hotel for a weekend on your own versus checking in with someone you enjoy spending time with, you compare eating dinner on your own to eating dinner with someone you enjoy spending time with.

The people on this forum provide far, far more support and good objective advice than anyone in my life. My life is pretty barren, yes I have my hobbies but even those fall into the "one good experience which is not really repeatable".

Just feeling very bleak, more so because I did pour out a lot more emotion this time.

March 30, 2021

42 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The level of BS and feigned interest increases exponentially when the former is the objective versus the latter.

What you call BS is what the rest of us call "flirting". And my husband and I both feign interest in each other's hobbies (soccer vs domestic arts) out of politeness. Yet we've been together 30 years, have two kids and a great relationship. More broadly speaking, feigning interest is an essential social skill required when talking to someone (of any gender) who has different hobbies and interests to what we do. So no, what you describe are not the actions of a guy who's only interested in sex.

If this woman is so amazing, why is it so far out of the realms of possibility that a guy who's comfortable in her world would want to lock her down?

Quote

Why am I upset because its another total loss, I'd like to think most men get to date people they find attractive, else why would they bother dating at all?

Why would you think that most men get to date people they find attractive? Heaps of people aren't attractive, yet they still fall in love and ~50% of them (much like the rest of us) live happily ever after.

And even of those who do date people they find attractive, there's a huge difference between a pretty girl with good personality and the "entire package of personality, looks, class, education, world experience, approach to life" you're searching for.

Edited March 30, 2021 by basil67

March 30, 2021

32 minutes ago, basil67 said:

What you call BS is what the rest of us call "flirting". And my husband and I both feign interest in each other's hobbies (soccer vs domestic arts) out of politeness. Yet we've been together 30 years, have two kids and a great relationship. More broadly speaking, feigning interest is an essential social skill required when talking to someone (of any gender) who has different hobbies and interests to what we do. So no, what you describe are not the actions of a guy who's only interested in sex.

If this woman is so amazing, why is it so far out of the realms of possibility that a guy who's comfortable in her world would want to lock her down?

Why would you think that most men get to date people they find attractive? Heaps of people aren't attractive, yet they still fall in love and ~50% of them (much like the rest of us) live happily ever after.

And even of those who do date people they find attractive, there's a huge difference between a pretty girl with good personality and the "entire package of personality, looks, class, education, world experience, approach to life" you're searching for.

I just give up.

For me the fundamentals of what I find attractive will never change, someone who is in poor shape, speaks badly, has no class, poorly spoken, unmotivated will never be attractive to me so I might as well just admit what I find attractive is not attainable and just simply hope I do not need to endure TOO many lonely years on this planet.

Frankly I could think of nothing worse that having to spend time with someone who makes me feel nothing and I do not find attractive. I am never going to be able to flirt so that is my own fault, everything is my own fault, I am just a completely useless example of human being who has zero value beyond providing what many men apparently cannot. Why is it I am the one that everyone leans on when everything goes bad with their relationships for 20 years I have had a ring side seat for this dance and its always the same, its always the same issues, the same problem and yet these women go back for more over and over again.

I just feel completely useless and valueless. My experiences would prove this to be correct.

Its very very tough to walk up to the wall of impossibility. Tough to realize logically speaking I have no chance ever really UNLESS I bend so far over backward I simply fall over.

I only search for what I know actually exists but as ever its like waking into Rolex shop with Casio money. The entire world of dating appears to revolve around that very simple reality.

As for this, there is nothing left I can really do, I tried my best, showed myself off as best I could and I HIGHLY suspect the friend dynamic will not be the same so I will regret messing that up, maybe I just need to stay in my looser lane for good and just sit look on as everyone else succeeds.

I am trying everything I know today to try feel better...

March 30, 2021

59 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Why would you think that most men get to date people they find attractive? Heaps of people aren't attractive, yet they still fall in love and ~50% of them (much like the rest of us) live happily ever after.

And even of those who do date people they find attractive, there's a huge difference between a pretty girl with good personality and the "entire package of personality, looks, class, education, world experience, approach to life" you're searching for.

Its for this reason that I need to find a way of walking away for good. What that way is I have no idea but I will entertain all suggestions. The thought of spending time with someone I dont find attractive is hugely unappealing because everything that is good I experienced will not exist in that scenario.

At the end of the day you are right I guess many land up with people they do not find attractive for any number of reasons but I wonder if they are truly happy and do not wonder "what if" or over years they simply fool themselves into believing they are happy.

All I can do is try see how this friendship works now or does not work but my guess is I am going to be completely shut out as this is what ALWAYS happens when I actually try. It would be easy for me to blame everyone and everything but ultimately I am just not good looking enough, successful enough, just not enough in any given department and you know what the only person to blame for that is ME, only ME. I have tried and tried in this instance I really believe I was the best version of myself but even that was not enough.

March 30, 2021

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

At the end of the day you are right I guess many land up with people they do not find attractive for any number of reasons but I wonder if they are truly happy and do not wonder "what if" or over years they simply fool themselves into believing they are happy.

I don't understand your "what if" question. What if 'what'?

I've spoken of this before, but my focus has never been on looks. Looks are transient and we'll all end up old and craggy one day. What good is it to find someone for their looks when we all end up with differing degrees of ugly in the end?

When it comes to looks, anywhere in the realms of average is fine for me because I'm all about connection and personality in a mate. A good sense of humour and shared fun is my ultimate aphrodisiac. You may be expecting me to suddenly realise that I'm not happy, but I can't imagine being happier than I am now.

Further to your comparison of Rolex vs Casio....I don't get upset because I can't have a Rolex. Why would I want a Rolex when my phone does a perfectly adequate job of telling me what time it is?

Edited March 30, 2021 by basil67

March 30, 2021

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Bottom line I am simply not good enough.

Bottom line - that is true.
You are not good enough for these model types you covet.
You are looking for the pick of the crop and frankly you don't match up.
You don't match up as you are not good looking enough, not rich enough, not cool enough, not sexy enough, and for this girl not old enough either...
There are plenty women out there who are as caring, smiley and nice as this girl only they aren't IG models... plenty women who would think you are good enough.

But realistically what would you have done had she been attracted. You tried kissing once and you are never doing it again is what you said, so how exactly was that going to work?
She was a married woman, she will expect sex. Sex is all part of dating, it is not something only players do...
You are I guess giving off a platonic/non sexual/friend vibe as you haven't any experience of being close to a woman.
These guys you are so dismissive of, will be sending out sexual vibes either blatantly or subtly all the time and that is what women pick up on.
On meeting a guy.
She asks the question.
Does this guy want to be my friend or my lover/boyfriend?
No sexual vibe so = Friend -> dismissed or straight into the friendzone.
Sexual vibe so = Lover/boyfriend -> OK next question.
Am I attracted to him?
No -> dismissed or straight into the friend zone.
Yes -> That is when the flirting starts.

With no sexual overtones from you, women will dismiss you or friendzone you.
As few women actively dating can be bothered amassing rejected males as friends, dismissal is the name of the game.

March 30, 2021

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I guess many land up with people they do not find attractive for any number of reasons but I wonder if they are truly happy and do not wonder "what if" or over years they simply fool themselves into believing they are happy.

OK but what if your IG model turns into a harpy, what if she believes she settled, what if she is miserable and resentful, what if she falls out of love, what if she ends up hating you?
Finding the girl of your dreams is only the first step, are you the man of her dreams... maybe not.

March 30, 2021

9 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

OK but what if your IG model turns into a harpy, what if she believes she settled, what if she is miserable and resentful, what if she falls out of love, what if she ends up hating you?
Finding the girl of your dreams is only the first step, are you the man of her dreams... maybe not.

I am just worthless. Bottom line.

March 30, 2021

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am just worthless. Bottom line.

Plenty of women wouldn't agree with this. Problem is, you think those women are worthless.

March 30, 2021

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Plenty of women wouldn't agree with this. Problem is, you think those women are worthless.

Who are these plenty? Never met any of them. I am done, really done. Why should I force myself to find people attractive who I simply don't find attractive? Nobody can answer that?

How does someone who isn't fit help me, how does someone who speaks poorly help me, how does someone apathetic help me? If I can make the effort to not be any of those things than so can everyone else.

March 30, 2021

38 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Bottom line - that is true.
You are not good enough for these model types you covet.
You are looking for the pick of the crop and frankly you don't match up.
You don't match up as you are not good looking enough, not rich enough, not cool enough, not sexy enough, and for this girl not old enough either...
There are plenty women out there who are as caring, smiley and nice as this girl only they aren't IG models... plenty women who would think you are good enough.

But realistically what would you have done had she been attracted. You tried kissing once and you are never doing it again is what you said, so how exactly was that going to work?
She was a married woman, she will expect sex. Sex is all part of dating, it is not something only players do...
You are I guess giving off a platonic/non sexual/friend vibe as you haven't any experience of being close to a woman.
These guys you are so dismissive of, will be sending out sexual vibes either blatantly or subtly all the time and that is what women pick up on.
On meeting a guy.
She asks the question.
Does this guy want to be my friend or my lover/boyfriend?
No sexual vibe so = Friend -> dismissed or straight into the friendzone.
Sexual vibe so = Lover/boyfriend -> OK next question.
Am I attracted to him?
No -> dismissed or straight into the friend zone.
Yes -> That is when the flirting starts.

With no sexual overtones from you, women will dismiss you or friendzone you.
As few women actively dating can be bothered amassing rejected males as friends, dismissal is the name of the game.

I'd have at least had the opportunity to try and you know what this might have been the one time I would not have been judged for being inexperienced. She knows that about me already.

As I have said many times I don't know how to give off any other vibe, again my fault. I really thought this would be the ONE time where I could actually get some experience of sorts.

But anyway seems I am good enough friend, well maybe that's gone too in which case it's a total loss.

No experience=no chance. Fact of life. If I fell off the earth tomorrow I frankly wouldn't care either nor I suspect would anyone else. I am just a useful sounding board for people and a great support structure... nothing more.

March 30, 2021

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Looking around me I just don't believe that everyone had to settle, surely they feel some sort of genuine attraction to their partner?

What would you say to a woman who was upset that people told her to date a man who calls himself worthless and miserable? Why should they settle for that? That attitude is unattractive, surely they should be with someone who doesn't have it?

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Who are these plenty? Never met any of them.

The woman this thread is about doesn't think you're worthless. The other one (K?) doesn't think you're worthless. I'm sure you've got family and friends with the same opinion. Proclaiming you're worthless because the women you desire won't jump into bed with you is overdramatic. Do you not find worth in women you don't want to sleep with? People still value your friendship, and if they don't, why waste your time with them?

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Why should I force myself to find people attractive who I simply don't find attractive? Nobody can answer that?

No one's forcing you. But at some point you do need to reconcile your desires with your capabilities and willingness to do things differently than you have been. You don't find someone attractive? That's fine. But as it stands now, the women you're after don't find you attractive either. So why do you think they should be forced?

March 30, 2021

You are the guy who wants and expects to begin his career in management. You get offered a job in the mail room, but you do not accept the job because you do not find the work fulfilling and you would rather be unemployed than work in a mailroom... You spend your days lamenting about all the beautiful people who work those management jobs and complaining about the fact that all you have ever been offered is the mailroom.

What’s more, you continue to apply for management positions - while insisting that you refuse to be stuck in the mailroom - when there are any number of other jobs you could explore... bus driver, policeman, car salesman, etc... You don’t actually consider these options because you are so sure you are meant for management, and so convinced that you refuse to settle for the mailroom - you completely miss the range of other opportunities that could bring you satisfaction.

I’m not saying you need to settle for a job in the mailroom... I am saying, it’s not black or white/all or nothing. We are talking about people - there is a whole spectrum of options you refuse to consider. You will never sell me that it is either these elite model type worldly women or overweight women who can’t hold a conversation - with nothing in between. It’s is all about expectations and entitlement. And flexibility, and adaptability.

Edited March 30, 2021 by BaileyB

March 30, 2021

38 minutes ago, normal person said:

What would you say to a woman who was upset that people told her to date a man who calls himself worthless and miserable? Why should they settle for that? That attitude is unattractive, surely they should be with someone who doesn't have it?

The woman this thread is about doesn't think you're worthless. The other one (K?) doesn't think you're worthless. I'm sure you've got family and friends with the same opinion. Proclaiming you're worthless because the women you desire won't jump into bed with you is overdramatic. Do you not find worth in women you don't want to sleep with? People still value your friendship, and if they don't, why waste your time with them?

No one's forcing you. But at some point you do need to reconcile your desires with your capabilities and willingness to do things differently than you have been. You don't find someone attractive? That's fine. But as it stands now, the women you're after don't find you attractive either. So why do you think they should be forced?

No I'll just need to find a way to comprehensively just give up. Perhaps one of the things about this is I feel emotions again, whether that is good is debatable. My point is at what point do I just throw in the towel to all of it? I am going to see if she wants to do something this weekend, that will be the test to see if the friendship is still there, she did chat to me today which was nice.

As I have said before I'd rather just have nothing than something I do not want. Put yourself in my shoes would you really date someone you did not find attractive? I cant help the fact I find certain people very attractive and others deeply unattractive. If the best I can do is friendship then I guess I need to make peace with that. Against my better judgement I put myself out more this time than ever before, made myself super vulnerable and where did it get me, nowhere as usual.

I do not have the answers but truthfully if I fell off the planet tomorrow I would not really care because when you live this giant hole in your life its deeply unpleasant, more so now because I know how nice it feels NOT to have to live with that every single day. Ignorance was indeed bliss in this respect.

Maybe something I should share but have been hesitant to do is growing up I had quite cold family environment, this drives me to seek out warm people but it also drives me to try be warmer, around her I can just be me, drop my guard and be the caring, sensitive guy I am without fear of being judged for being that person, I have lots of that to give, lots and lots and giving makes me feel good. Sharing experiences makes me feel good BUT this does not work if I do not connect with the persona and they do not engage with me.

Its a bitter pill to swallow to realize that I wont ever get what I really like and that deeply hurtful void will always be there, I do not think anyone really understands what that void feels like.

March 30, 2021

50 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

you completely miss the range of other opportunities that could bring you satisfaction.

I’m not saying you need to settle for a job in the mailroom... I am saying, it’s not black or white/all or nothing. We are talking about people - there is a whole spectrum of options you refuse to consider. You will never sell me that it is either these elite model type worldly women or overweight women who can’t hold a conversation - with nothing in between. It’s is all about expectations and entitlement. And flexibility, and adaptability.

Happy to provide evidence in respect of the bold.

Not sure what those other opportunities might be, clearly you know things I do not because I have been on OLD for 15 years and I have never come across them. There is always something wrong with me, be it not drinking, be it not partying, be it not going to festivals, not going to church, not being fun, being too serious, having too few friends. ALL I EVER get is criticism when it comes to dating. Even from K.

This was the FIRST time someone has nice things to say about me, the first time someone paid me some attention, bothers to engage with me, bothered to take an interest in me. NO OLD is a like shop, I get thrown away like garbage because I do not conform, having a soft heart means nothing, being caring counts for nothing, being generous counts for nothing. I am worthless in the dating context.

This an extract of what I sent her which she really liked

We all have stories, all of them unique but it is how we relate to our stories, how we own them, how we wear them, how we embrace then and yes how we share them. Sharing is in the very fabric of how we live, every time we interact we share and it would be true to say very few people interact with me on a level where I feel comfortable to share my story. It’s a story few relate to and fewer yet still believe and as remarkable as some of it is there is also the infamous solo walk that defines it.

People say I am good with words, maybe that is true, maybe it is not, we are all good at things, I have never met anyone who isn’t good at something but to me the most alluring people are those who make me feel something, make me reflect, make me wonder that bit more, make me question, make me want to be better and make me view things differently. Yes, on that sunny afternoon for once I wasn’t walking along that path on my own and it felt good and the reality completely surpassed the idea.

March 30, 2021

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not sure what those other opportunities might be

Me. I am neither model type or overweight and unable to hold a conversation.

I’m not saying that I would be attracted to you or want to date you, but there are quite literally millions of women that fall between these two polar opposite extremes that you are trying to sell as the only alternatives.

Just because you haven’t found anyone to date doesn’t mean that these women don’t exist. I would respectfully suggest it’s because you are not looking for them. Your lens is distorted, and it distorts your experience with dating.

March 30, 2021

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My point is at what point do I just throw in the towel to all of it?

Maybe after you stop trying things that anyone who's been there says won't work and start trying things that might. It almost feels like you haven't even stepped in the ring yet.

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am going to see if she wants to do something this weekend, that will be the test to see if the friendship is still there, she did chat to me today which was nice.

I'm not sure what you wrote in her letter or whatever it was, but likely she understood your motives. If you're "lucky" (from your perspective, I guess) she'll just like pretend like it was an expression of friendship and absolutely nothing more to reduce any awkwardness between you.

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Put yourself in my shoes would you really date someone you did not find attractive?

No, and I'm not saying you should. But it appears there's quite a significant gulf between what you want and what you can get. So if you honestly feel like in your search you're already compromising all you're willing to compromise, and your horizons have been broadened beyond the margins of reason, then I'm not sure what anyone here can do to help you.

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Against my better judgement

Against your better judgment, against the advice of many people who told you it was a bad idea, against common sense, etc.

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I put myself out more this time than ever before, made myself super vulnerable and where did it get me, nowhere as usual.

Did anyone tell you this was the way that'd yield you the best results? I'm curious. Because you come on here asking about this situation presumably because you want the benefit of others' experience, you got it, you then ignored that advice and did it your own way anyways. I don't have the patience to read through the thread again, but I don't recall anyone saying "get super vulnerable, tell her about how all other women don't want anything to do with you, then act incredibly grateful that she's even speaking to you." Did anyone say anything even resembling that? If not, why did you do it? So think about this: you shot yourself in the foot against the advice of people, and you're now upset that your own actions independent of that advice got you "nowhere as usual," as if "usual" was somehow unexpected in this instance. If you don't want the usual results, why don't you listen to people who're telling you how to stop getting them? Why even post here? Why even bother asking for advice if the end result is for you not take it and then brag about how much happier you are doing things you own way, only for the process to start over again? People really want to help you and see you succeed, but it's difficult to have this cyclical, endless conversation with you.

This isn't even about the woman anymore. It's almost as if you didn't read or comprehend anything anyone said, and if you did, you just ignored it and assumed you knew better than people who've experienced similar things. I can understand why the woman isn't interested in you, but I'm really struggling to understand you and what you want out of these threads. People give you pages of advice and the end result is "I did it my own way, and where did it get me? Nowhere as usual." We all told you how it was going to end if you did things your way. So now what? Sympathy for ignoring the advice it took collective hours to write, that people leveraged their own past pain and discomfort for so that you could hopefully experience less of it? I don't know more what else people can say to help you, it almost seems as if posting here is just escapism for you, and you were never going to take advice anyways.

Edited March 30, 2021 by normal person

March 30, 2021

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Against my better judgement I put myself out more this time than ever before, made myself super vulnerable and where did it get me, nowhere as usual.

Again, the woman is interested in another man. You can make yourself as vulnerable as you like, if she is not interested it will not have the desired result.

Another analogy, I can decide that I really want a job. I can make myself vulnerable, and call the person who is hiring to sell myself, submit a resume, and apply for the job. I can be assertive, I can call, and send them emails, and offer to show them my portfolio, and provide references... if they have another internal candidate that they have already decided is the one the way for the job, it doesn’t really matter. I will not get the job. Such is life.

Was it worth taking a shot at the job - sure, I had nothing to lose. But, if I am then going to grow depressed because I felt that I was the perfect candidate and it’s just not fair that I was not considered - such that I decide not to bother applying for any other jobs... well, that kind of black and white, catastrophic thinking does not serve me very well.

Edited March 30, 2021 by BaileyB

March 30, 2021

54 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Me. I am neither model type or overweight and unable to hold a conversation.

I’m not saying that I would be attracted to you or want to date you, but there are quite literally millions of women that fall between these two polar opposite extremes that you are trying to sell as the only alternatives.

Just because you haven’t found anyone to date doesn’t mean that these women don’t exist. I would respectfully suggest it’s because you are not looking for them. Your lens is distorted, and it distorts your experience with dating.

With respect I disagree entirely. The ONLY matches I get are overweight, completely incompatible people. I am slim and athletic so that is my requirement. At this point I am sure I am going to get fired at like a battle ship off the coast of Normandy in 1945 but frankly that is what I find attractive.

Again with respect I have been looking for 20 years and have not found anyone so that tells its own story and no for 20 years I have not been looking for athletic models BUT I can tell you the ones I have met all of them were far nicer people than ANY I met on OLD sites, ALL could actually hold a conversation and generally had lots to say, contrast this with Joanne the accountant or Petra the teacher where I had to drag any conversation out of them. Frankly it was not worth the effort.

No, every time I try and date there is always a list as long as a sheet of paper of problems with me, I never ever measure up to anyone so why on earth should I adopt the "well take whatever I can" approach for the sake of what would undoubtedly be a very bad experience. I have been out with many different people and almost NONE made me FEEL anything. You cant rationalise feeling or describe it but what I can say NONE I really wanted to spend anymore time with never mind 4 weekends worth of time with.

No I did a 35 km cycle this evening to try and clear my head, the best I can do is just accept I cant date her, accept she is going to date other people, accept I might be able to retain some friendship with her, accept she will hopefully give me some attention and we can hopefully spend some time together. For me that is about as good a dating outcome as I can realistically expect. I'll die never having experienced any intimacy but I just need to accept that, accept it as a function of being undesirable.

March 30, 2021

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The ONLY matches I get are overweight, completely incompatible people.

We’ve gone over many, many times why this is. It’s women shooting “out of their league” for you. They do it too, just like you. It’s called aspirational dating and it’s very common with online dating.

March 30, 2021

40 minutes ago, normal person said:

Maybe after you stop trying things that anyone who's been there says won't work and start trying things that might. It almost feels like you haven't even stepped in the ring yet.

I'm not sure what you wrote in her letter or whatever it was, but likely she understood your motives. If you're "lucky" (from your perspective, I guess) she'll just like pretend like it was an expression of friendship and absolutely nothing more to reduce any awkwardness between you.

No, and I'm not saying you should. But it appears there's quite a significant gulf between what you want and what you can get. So if you honestly feel like in your search you're already compromising all you're willing to compromise, and your horizons have been broadened beyond the margins of reason, then I'm not sure what anyone here can do to help you.

Against your better judgment, against the advice of many people who told you it was a bad idea, against common sense, etc.

Did anyone tell you this was the way that'd yield you the best results? I'm curious. Because you come on here asking about this situation presumably because you want the benefit of others' experience, you got it, you then ignored that advice and did it your own way anyways. I don't have the patience to read through the thread again, but I don't recall anyone saying "get super vulnerable, tell her about how all other women don't want anything to do with you, then act incredibly grateful that she's even speaking to you." Did anyone say anything even resembling that? If not, why did you do it? So think about this: you shot yourself in the foot against the advice of people, and you're now upset that your own actions independent of that advice got you "nowhere as usual," as if "usual" was somehow unexpected in this instance. If you don't want the usual results, why don't you listen to people who're telling you how to stop getting them? Why even post here? Why even bother asking for advice if the end result is for you not take it and then brag about how much happier you are doing things you own way, only for the process to start over again? People really want to help you and see you succeed, but it's difficult to have this cyclical, endless conversation with you.

This isn't even about the woman anymore. It's almost as if you didn't read or comprehend anything anyone said, and if you did, you just ignored it and assumed you knew better than people who've experienced similar things. I can understand why the woman isn't interested in you, but I'm really struggling to understand you and what you want out of these threads. People give you pages of advice and the end result is "I did it my own way, and where did it get me? Nowhere as usual." We all told you how it was going to end if you did things your way. So now what? Sympathy for ignoring the advice it took collective hours to write, that people leveraged their own past pain and discomfort for so that you could hopefully experience less of it? I don't know more what else people can say to help you, it almost seems as if posting here is just escapism for you, and you were never going to take advice anyways.

Refer to my response to Elaine's post about not knowing how to express any other interest but friend zone type interest. The answer is there, I simply cannot do anything else because I do not know how. Re the advice, do you really think it would have turned out any better, honestly?

There is no awkwardness between us this is the FIRST time I have never had that elephant in the room. A welcome change.

What I did was actually instead of being a robot showed some emotions with her, that was the big difference here and why I did that was because I felt comfortable to do so because she knew I am useless at dating, she knows I have not dated ever, she knows all these things already but still choose to spend time with me anyway. That is the BIG difference here, OLD Id have been thrown on the garbage heap for being so honest. So yes I did things very differently here from my usual stay in my shell approach because you know what she bothered to actually engage with me which nobody else ever bothers to do.

Thanks for the forthright bold part, much appreciated because yes I am not prepared to compromise any further. If other people can date people they find attractive I am certainly not going to waste me time with people I do not find attractive in the hope the clock swipes 12 and they suddenly become attractive. If I cannot get the best experience I can possibly get when measure against past experiences then its not worth it. For me its about better and better and to know at what point I have found the best and I think I may have found that now, heavily compromised yes but a LOT better than going back into the lake that is OLD.

You forget what is easy to you is not to me, for me my core belief is built up on the friend side of things, I have few friends so first and foremost I need to do that part with anyone I meet I cannot escalate anything beyond that because I do not know how. I once had a great date and decided on the advice of some here to try kiss her, what followed was so awkward and I never heard from her again.

All I need to try do is salvage what I can here and bring myself to accept she wont ever choose me.

March 30, 2021

3 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

We’ve gone over many, many times why this is. It’s women shooting “out of their league” for you. They do it too, just like you. It’s called aspirational dating and it’s very common with online dating.

I do not disagree HOWEVER I actually do have something to offer whereas the vast majority of them do not. If they want to date a slim guy then at least be exceptional somewhere else but that is never the case. Me I am really good at listening to people, I am a good problem solver, I am the most supportive guy most people have ever met, I have endless patience, I make sure I look good, I make sure I am well read. They rock up and expect me to buy into whatever charm they are offering which frankly is not enough, why on earth would I take someone who cannot speak properly and presents poorly to an event full of captains of industry?

The difference between me and many guys, I am not fixated with getting dates to bed, purely because I would not know how to and because the level of awkwardness would only be mitigated if it is someone I have got to know over a long extended period of time. I have no way of expressing romantic interest, I can buy them things, do kind acts, take an interest in them but those are not things a confident experienced guy does. I am always having to find ways to fix inherent problems along the way and why would anyone want someone like me, they would not.

What I saw here was how good it is to have what I always wanted to have, never did I expect to actually find this scenario but for whatever reason I have which is problematic to some extent because nothing else really compares.

You know what I feel good around her, the issues are less, I am not awkward and I can bring out a lot of confidence, far more than the guy she is seeing on and off but I cant control what someone else finds attractive I can do whatever I want but no two people find the same things attractive which is why for me at least dating is about as likely as winning the lottery.

At least I enjoy myself around her, all the armour is off and the weight of 20 years of failure is gone, walking down the road with her and baby I feel life is full rather than empty like it is most of the time. She laughs at me which is very unusual because nobody normally gets my humour so basically a LOT of the usual problems I have are NOT present here.

What I can do is just do what I am good at, be that shoulder and support system. Just accepting the limitations inherent in that. I wont lie I craze some some of physical interaction, I had a lovely hug the other day, the first time I had been hugged in five years.

March 30, 2021

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not disagree HOWEVER I actually do have something to offer whereas the vast majority of them do not. If they want to date a slim guy then at least be exceptional somewhere else but that is never the case. Me I am really good at listening to people, I am a good problem solver, I am the most supportive guy most people have ever met, I have endless patience, I make sure I look good, I make sure I am well read. They rock up and expect me to buy into whatever charm they are offering which frankly is not enough, why on earth would I take someone who cannot speak properly and presents poorly to an event full of captains of industry?

If you expect something extraordinary just because you're thin, you're over estimating the value of your physique. The whole package of what you've written here pitches you as fairly average. That's OK, most of us ARE average - not judging. I'm average too. However, the bolded looses you a lot of points because it sounds so mean and judgmental.

You want us to believe that you're a good guy who cares about others, but so much of what you write, both about women who you don't want to date and men who you don't understand is horribly mean. I really have trouble reconciling who you believe yourself to be with the way you speak about others.

Edited March 30, 2021 by basil67

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