Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

I don't really understand the point you're making here...  Of course it's more selfish for the cheater, they're diverting their energy, attention and often their finances towards an outside party to their marriage.

I think you make valid points in your post. The part I'm questioning is whether that is (actually) MORE selfish than divorcing. I do suspect that an undiscovered affair can actually be relatively painless, RELATIVE to the distress of a nasty divorce. That is why I'm asking.

I'm going to assume that the finances aspect is usually fairly minor. No doubt there are exceptions to that.

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, serial muse said:

As a BS, I experienced so much [pre D-day] gaslighting and neglect and it really messed me up for a long time.

Fair enough. As bad as that no doubt was, it was your specific experience and probably does not mirror the experience of every BS, although no doubt it does for some. There are posts which indicate a wide range in levels of discretion by the WS and levels of awareness/pre-D-day distress for the BS.

In your case it certainly sounds like it would have been a convenient fiction on the part of your WS.

[mark clemson]

41 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

I think it depends on the individual situation.

Thanks for responding - I think I agree, which is part of why I originally posted this.

[basil67]

Honestly? I'd prefer my partner have a discreet affair than bust up our family.

[mark clemson]

Thanks for responding and yes, I figured there are folks like you out there, which is part of why I posted this.

[Milly May June]

Is it MORE selfish to cheat on them while supporting them financially than to just divorce and walk away, leaving them to (in some cases) fall through the cracks of the social support systems.?

My mom used to take care of a older lady who had a severe brain damage (violence du to robbery). She was living in a home for years. Her H never divorced her but he went on with his life. Had another woman. In this situation i think the marriage had come to a sad end and noone blamed him for moving on.  But if i was in a situation where i needed care, was mentally clear but not able to provide my H with intimacy i would suggest an open M. If my H had an affair behind my back i would find it MORE selfish then if he just divorced me. Why? Because i value honesty and respect more. I know i would like to have had an opprtunity to make a decision about my life, no matter how difficult it would be. But that is just my opinion. 

 

[basil67]

37 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Honestly? I'd prefer my partner have a discreet affair than bust up our family.

Also, if I found out, I'd rather work through it than rush to divorce.

[Amethyst68]

Having lost my cousin from cancer because her husband passed on HPV he caught from his OW I would definitely want to know from a health perspective alone. I know it was extreme but I've read similar examples, so unfortunately it's not unknown. 

As for the financial aspect I've also read where BS have stated they've been scrabbling to pay bill or feed their families while their partner treats the AP to gifts, meals out etc. 

Personally I just hate the thought someone else was making my choices for me. Taking away my agency in my own life. It would be a betrayal, whether I'd know it or not. 

That's not to say I'd rush to divorce, I've always said it's a deal breaker but who knows. 

[SMoore]

Many answers, many perspectives.  In the case of an undiscovered affair where the WS sees it as a mistake, doesn’t want to hurt the BS or detonate a family, and is willing to try to make things work for a better future, then it seems that keeping it hidden is the least selfish option.  The marriage might not actually be bad enough for a divorce, after all.

There may be a temptation to confess but this is driven by an ego seeking forgiveness and is a selfish act.  It merely passes on a burden to another.

It’s fraught with difficulties though.  Can the WS keep the secret forever or will it gnaw away at him/her?  My answer - time will tell, depends on the psychology of the WS.

Is it denying the BS a right to the truth, and so agency with his/her future?  My answer - it’s a trick question.  Perhaps keeping silent is giving him/her the family unit he/she longs for, the bliss of ignorance, security etc.  Married couples live well together with all kinds of secrets, desires, feelings that remain hidden and might be deal-breakers.  Humans live behind masks; it’s our nature.  The quest for pure truth above all   else has never been a function of society and has never served as a practical rule to live by - we cannot stand to see ourselves in the mirror.

I’m not advocating rampant immortality btw, just pointing out the delicate and murky business of weighing up the best course of action.  There’s no good place to stand in a massacre, as Leonard Cohen wrote.  No option here is a good option.  But keeping silent in the right context might be the least bad one.

I’d also add that if the WS is gloating about having ‘got away with it’, then he/she will probably do it again and keeping it a secret is just an extension of the betrayal.  That isn’t the kind of secrecy I’m talking about.  I’m talking about the kind where you own a painful burden and learn to walk the rest of your life with it alone, not as a martyr but as someone trying to minimise suffering, and nothing more.  I think it’s possible to do.  I hope so, anyway.

[Amethyst68]

Maybe the WS should know their partner.  As I said in my post I would want to know and I would expect my WH to know that about me and tell me. It's not their decision to make!

As for the reasoning that it's saving the BS from all the trouble related to the affair. Let's be honest here, what it's doing is removing all consequences for the WS and increasing the chances of it happening again. Of course this is going to be the most attractive option to a WS. I have more respect, for lack of a better term,  for the ones that just admit that (and there are plenty that do just that). 

 

[mark clemson]

Note: I'm not trying to be mean, just logical (as I see it).

 

1 hour ago, Amethyst68 said:

 I would want to know and I would expect my WH to know that about me and tell me. It's not their decision to make!

It IS their decision to make, though, in reality. Just as it would be YOUR decision, e.g. to divorce if you found out (by whatever means).

 

1 hour ago, Amethyst68 said:

As for the reasoning that it's saving the BS from all [much of] the trouble related to the affair. Let's be honest here, what it's doing is removing all [many] consequences for the WS and [in many cases] increasing the chances of it happening again.

(Apologies for the edits, but I don't feel blanket statements make sense in this context. If that's not legit I can re-do my post.)

In realty it does BOTH of these things (or at least can). Benefits for the BS and WS, relative to the disruption of a divorce, are not exclusive options. Of course that will depend on specifics and won't always be the case, such as if there's an STD, among many possible examples.

[serial muse]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Fair enough. As bad as that no doubt was, it was your specific experience and probably does not mirror the experience of every BS, although no doubt it does for some. There are posts which indicate a wide range in levels of discretion by the WS and levels of awareness/pre-D-day distress for the BS.

In your case it certainly sounds like it would have been a convenient fiction on the part of your WS.

Can I ask - I'm curious why you added the brackets to my post? FWIW, there was gaslighting both before and after D-Day, which I think is actually pretty common. People often call that post-D-Day gaslighting "trickle-truth," which is just another way of saying lying in order to CYA.

On your other point - I respectfully disagree there. To be honest, I haven't popped into the LS infidelity or OW forums in a long long time, so I don't know what the general thought there is nowadays, or who's posting and what they have to say about their wayward spouses etc. But I used to be there quite a bit in the old days (for multiple years about a decade or so ago), and I would say my experience was the norm among those BS, at least of those who posted here and in other forums, rather than the exception. Most people know something is very very wrong, although they don't quite know what and can't get a straight answer about it (until they ultimately do, and that I think is uncontroversially severely disruptive). And most BS that I remember said they would far far far far far rather have known the truth than have lived in that nightmare of uncertainty and gaslighting. That was of course true for me too. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by serial muse

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, serial muse said:

Can I ask - I'm curious why you added the brackets to my post? FWIW, there was gaslighting both before and after D-Day, which I think is actually pretty common. People often call that post-D-Day gaslighting "trickle-truth," which is just another way of saying lying in order to CYA.

Of course - the reason is the way you post I was responding to started out (immed below). But I agree you are correct in the above about TTing frequently occurring, etc.

11 hours ago, serial muse said:

I don't think it's accurate to say that having an affair, even if "undiscovered", doesn't cause serious disruption.

 

2 hours ago, serial muse said:

 I don't know what the general thought there is nowadays, or who's posting and what they have to say about their wayward spouses etc. But I used to be there quite a bit in the old days (for multiple years about a decade or so ago), and I would say my experience was the norm among those BS, at least of those who posted here and in other forums, rather than the exception.

Fair enough. I think it's common to be upset, angry, divorce, etc. However, I don't think it reasonable to assume that a majority of people feel the "level of intensity" of distress that comes along on these forums. Some do but I suspect that plenty of people handle it differently, with less severe trauma. So there are both types. I believe we tend to see the most distressed types of BSs on forums. The least distressed ones aren't posting on places like this, they are just getting on with the business of either moving out/divorcing or attempting to reconcile. We occasionally get posters who handle it well - but they tend not to stick around too long. I think they represent a certain % of folks.

"Leaving my cheating husband behind was about as hard as wiping sh*t off one of my shoes." - that's paraphrased but it's a quote I've heard in a different context. So, there's definitely folks out there who aren't freaking out nearly as much as some of the folks on these boards who are left with PTSD, permanent trust issues, etc.

Overall, I DON'T think it's realistic to assume the level of trauma you see on this board and similar is actually the norm. I think it's one tail of the normal curve.

Edited December 2, 2020 by mark clemson

[pepperbird2]

2 hours ago, serial muse said:

Can I ask - I'm curious why you added the brackets to my post? FWIW, there was gaslighting both before and after D-Day, which I think is actually pretty common. People often call that post-D-Day gaslighting "trickle-truth," which is just another way of saying lying in order to CYA.

On your other point - I respectfully disagree there. To be honest, I haven't popped into the LS infidelity or OW forums in a long long time, so I don't know what the general thought there is nowadays, or who's posting and what they have to say about their wayward spouses etc. But I used to be there quite a bit in the old days (for multiple years about a decade or so ago), and I would say my experience was the norm among those BS, at least of those who posted here and in other forums, rather than the exception. Most people know something is very very wrong, although they don't quite know what and can't get a straight answer about it (until they ultimately do, and that I think is uncontroversially severely disruptive). And most BS that I remember said they would far far far far far rather have known the truth than have lived in that nightmare of uncertainty and gaslighting. That was of course true for me too. 

The gas lighting is one of the worst things.

What I will never, ever understand is how a WS can cheat on their spouse and possible feel good about it .  I don't care what their bs is like. It comes down to the WS core values and their honesty. I've had the (mis) fortune to have met many people who have cheated on a spouse or other romantic partner. The ones who I liked as people felt bad about it and would go back and change it if they could. The fallout wasn't worth it

Is cheating worse than divorce? I guess that depends on who you ask. Me, I think cheating is worse. It destroys one's self esteem, and if, like me it takes you forever to let someone in and trust them, it's one of the worst things, at least from an emotional perspective, that you can do to a spouse. Looking back, i would rather my husband have come to me and said he was unhappy and wanted a change. We could have tried to make things better, but since he made the choices he did, now I have to carry the burden. I don't think a WS who hasn't been in that situation themselves can understand.

Mind you, this i just me and my experiences. others may feel differently.

[pepperbird2]

7 hours ago, Milly May June said:

Is it MORE selfish to cheat on them while supporting them financially than to just divorce and walk away, leaving them to (in some cases) fall through the cracks of the social support systems.?

My mom used to take care of a older lady who had a severe brain damage (violence du to robbery). She was living in a home for years. Her H never divorced her but he went on with his life. Had another woman. In this situation i think the marriage had come to a sad end and noone blamed him for moving on.  But if i was in a situation where i needed care, was mentally clear but not able to provide my H with intimacy i would suggest an open M. If my H had an affair behind my back i would find it MORE selfish then if he just divorced me. Why? Because i value honesty and respect more. I know i would like to have had an opprtunity to make a decision about my life, no matter how difficult it would be. But that is just my opinion. 

 

I'm not in an open marriage, but from what I understand, if both sides are in agreement. it can actually be a very honest arrangement.

[pepperbird2]

5 hours ago, SMoore said:

Many answers, many perspectives.  In the case of an undiscovered affair where the WS sees it as a mistake, doesn’t want to hurt the BS or detonate a family, and is willing to try to make things work for a better future, then it seems that keeping it hidden is the least selfish option.  The marriage might not actually be bad enough for a divorce, after all.

There may be a temptation to confess but this is driven by an ego seeking forgiveness and is a selfish act.  It merely passes on a burden to another.

It’s fraught with difficulties though.  Can the WS keep the secret forever or will it gnaw away at him/her?  My answer - time will tell, depends on the psychology of the WS.

Is it denying the BS a right to the truth, and so agency with his/her future?  My answer - it’s a trick question.  Perhaps keeping silent is giving him/her the family unit he/she longs for, the bliss of ignorance, security etc.  Married couples live well together with all kinds of secrets, desires, feelings that remain hidden and might be deal-breakers.  Humans live behind masks; it’s our nature.  The quest for pure truth above all   else has never been a function of society and has never served as a practical rule to live by - we cannot stand to see ourselves in the mirror.

I’m not advocating rampant immortality btw, just pointing out the delicate and murky business of weighing up the best course of action.  There’s no good place to stand in a massacre, as Leonard Cohen wrote.  No option here is a good option.  But keeping silent in the right context might be the least bad one.

I’d also add that if the WS is gloating about having ‘got away with it’, then he/she will probably do it again and keeping it a secret is just an extension of the betrayal.  That isn’t the kind of secrecy I’m talking about.  I’m talking about the kind where you own a painful burden and learn to walk the rest of your life with it alone, not as a martyr but as someone trying to minimise suffering, and nothing more.  I think it’s possible to do.  I hope so, anyway.

I understand where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree. 

A BS has every right to know what is impacting his or her marriage. There's plenty of stories out there of BS who find out about an affair through gossip, personal discovery or ( and this is so sad) an STD test.

Like I said in another post, I would rather have had my husband come to me and tell me he was unhappy. Give me he chance to make informed decisions about my life. I am an adult-not a child. I am  capable of change and even compassion. After all, I helped put him through school, followed him all over hell's half acre to each of his postings, was "tough" enough to be on my own for moths and even a year at a time when he was deployed or pulling field duty and raise three special needs kids, hold down a job, volunteer, sit on the board of directors for two large not for profits but I couldn't handle him talking to me or even divorce?

That sounds like BS ( and I don't mean betrayed spouse)
 

[Ellener]

5 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

I'm not in an open marriage, but from what I understand, if both sides are in agreement. it can actually be a very honest arrangement.

A few years ago when I was newly divorced I met a man who was very into 'open arrangements', I went on a few dates with him before receiving a call from his wife who knew nothing about their open marriage! It did me good though because I opened my naive eyes a bit after that.

A man I went on a few dates with early this year called me and said whilst he did want to see me and get to know me better he was meanwhile having sex with someone else. I just said no thanks. Since then it would be doubly so with the extra pandemic spread risk. I did appreciate his honesty, but sharing partners isn't for me.

 

 

[Atwood]

Trust, loyalty and empathy are extremely important values to me, and knowing that my partner destroyed all three of those values in our relationship would cause a far bigger disruption to my mental health, ability to trust in other relationships and ability to trust myself. Big break ups are nasty, yes, but a discrete affair would undermine everything and make it no longer worth having. 

[Starswillshine]

The only case I could potentially think of would be if... your spouse is in a coma/vegetative state and has been for years and there is no possibility of recovery. Open arrangements do not classify as an affair. 

The flaw in this thinking is that if the WS is unhappy, that an AP would make him/her happy. The fact is, happiness comes from within, and searching for it in someone else is weak. If you are unhappy with your spouse, discuss it, give honest truth of how you feel within the marriage. Give him/her a chance to make it right. And YOU have to give it an honest try and put in the effort as well (many only push their unhappiness onto their spouse without seeing the ways they, themselves, are contributing to the unhappiness of the home/marriage). If it does not happen, then seek divorce. You gave the chance. You were honest and up front. And you tried. 

Cheating is for the weak. 

[KaterinaVon]

People are on here making ALL kinds of excuses as to why it’s more selfish to divorce.

Or, “well, affairs are selfish but if there are kids involved and you like your spouse just aren’t in love, the affair can help keep the marriage afloat until the kids are grown”

WTF ?!?

An affair is always the most selfish option because is a betrayal of your vows to your spouse just so you can get your rocks off, whether it’s an emotional affair of flirting and deep conversations to actual sex. Cheating is cheating, if you wouldn’t do it in front of your spouse you shouldn’t be doing it at all.

A marriage isn’t about you and your spouse and a third party, it’s ONLY about you and your spouse, you did not make vows with your kids, or your next door neighbor or your coworker you get touchy with or the delivery driver. Your vows are with your SPOUSE. So if you give attention to another that should be reserved for your spouse and in the meantime you managed to catch feelings too, it’s 100% cheating. There’s no way around it, and since you aren’t doing it for your spouse it’s 100% selfish.

Divorce just means you are adult enough to know things aren’t working out, you gave it your best shot but nothing worked, you want to give yourself AND them the opportunity to find a better fit. 
 

An affair your partner doesn’t know about is just something you do for YOU, and coming home like nothing happened is the ultimate backstab.

Commitment is NOT about finding your way to the house every night after messing around, commitment is NOT about staying because of the kids or the house you don’t want to lose, commitment is about not messing around in the first place, and if you can’t do that, step aside, because your spouse deserves someone better. All you do with an affair is standing in the way of your spouse finding their partner who will treat them right, you’ve ROBBED them of this by lying and cheating. 
 

 

[serial muse]

10 hours ago, mark clemson said:

 

"Leaving my cheating husband behind was about as hard as wiping sh*t off one of my shoes." - that's paraphrased but it's a quote I've heard in a different context. So, there'definitely folks out there who aren't freaking out nearly as much as some of the folks on these boards who are left with PTSD, permanent trust issues, etc.

Overall, I DON'T think it's realistic to assume the level of trauma you see on this board and similar is actually the norm. I think it's one tail of the normal curve.

But perhaps this is also true of divorce, then - that for some, it's far more difficult than for others? The quote you included certainly implies so.

So, just to return to the initial premise of the thread, it seems that it's not really possible to make a blanket statement? I suppose I'm reacting to a perceived underestimation of the pain caused by infidelity in that premise. I don't think that case is really proven here.  

That said, it's true, and I think I acknowledged this from the get-go, that I'm really just a datapoint of one, and that any observations I make from this or other forums is by definition pretty darn subjective. I agree also that forum posters are a self-selecting population - but I don't agree that we can therefore assume that people who don't post on forums are pretty much OK. There's just too much assumption there.

Both things can be deeply traumatic, and one just shouldn't assume that either is worse. I think that's probably the takeaway here. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by serial muse

[KaterinaVon]

Also wanted to say that what you are saying to your spouse when you have an affair and lie is

” am the best YOU can do, I don’t want you to be happy with someone who has morals and integrity and can love you, AM the best you can get, because am cheating behind your back and not telling you to spare your feelings and my wallet, that’s my gift to you honey, lies to spare your feelings, hope you don’t mind I left that part out of our vows “ 

 

[Bittersweetie]

15 hours ago, SMoore said:

Is it denying the BS a right to the truth, and so agency with his/her future?  My answer - it’s a trick question.  Perhaps keeping silent is giving him/her the family unit he/she longs for, the bliss of ignorance, security etc.  Married couples live well together with all kinds of secrets, desires, feelings that remain hidden and might be deal-breakers.  Humans live behind masks; it’s our nature.  The quest for pure truth above all   else has never been a function of society and has never served as a practical rule to live by - we cannot stand to see ourselves in the mirror.

In my case, my husband made a big career decision when I was in the middle of my affair. He told me after d-day that if he had known I was having an affair, he would have made a different decision. My denying him the truth of our marriage took away his agency with his future. I don't see it as a quest for "pure truth" but rather respect for one's partner. If I respected my partner, I would've not hidden things that affected his life from him. 

And that is why I feel an affair is more selfish...in a divorce, the cards are on the table. Both parties know what is going on above board, even if it is a hurtful situation. But in an affair, one party holds cards the other party has no idea of. That is selfish and disrespectful. And I say this as someone who has been that selfish and that disrespectful.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Bittersweetie

[Starswillshine]

2 minutes ago, Bittersweetie said:

In my case, my husband made a big career decision when I was in the middle of my affair. He told me after d-day that if he had known I was having an affair, he would have made a different decision. My denying him the truth of our marriage took away his agency with his future. I don't see it as a quest for "pure truth" but rather respect for one's partner. If I respected my partner, I would've not hidden things that affected his life from him. 

And that is why I feel an affair is more selfish...in a divorce, the cards are on the table. Both parties know what is going on above board, even if it is a hurtful situation. But in an affair, one party holds cards the other party has no idea of. That is selfish and disrespectful. And I say this as someone who has been that selfish and that disrespectful.

Yes!!!!! 

I also made a life changing decision while my xWH was having an affair. One of the medical variety that makes a huge difference today. No way would I have ever made that decision and thus risk my health in the future had I known. 

[mark clemson]

59 minutes ago, KaterinaVon said:

An affair is always the most selfish option because is a betrayal of your vows to your spouse just so you can get your rocks off, whether it’s an emotional affair of flirting and deep conversations to actual sex. Cheating is cheating, if you wouldn’t do it in front of your spouse you shouldn’t be doing it at all.

 Hmm. You're entitled to your opinion of course. To me vows are not that big a deal. Even if they were, I'm not seeing actual logic here.

Divorce IS breaking a vow. "Till death do us part." So you're breaking one too.

You can break one vow and permanently end the marriage and traumatize your spouse, disrupt their life, etc.

Or you can break a different vow, and, while taking a risk, if successful minimize trauma and disruption.

Both are selfish, but I don't see a logical reason given why cheating is MORE selfish.

 

1 hour ago, KaterinaVon said:

Divorce just means you are adult enough to know things aren’t working out, you gave it your best shot but nothing worked, you want to give yourself AND them the opportunity to find a better fit.

 

You seem to be minimizing divorce. As I pointed out it IS breaking a vow. It can be HIGHLY painful and disruptive. "Giving both of you an opportunity" is a matter of perspective, we certainly get plenty of posts here showing significant distress, in some cases it certainly appears on a par with BSs, with people wondering how they got blindsided, what to do now, etc.

You talk about morals and integrity, but there are certainly people who tolerate cheating spouses rather than divorcing due to their morals - for example, they don't want to divorce due to their religious views. Slapping a unilateral divorce on people like that isn't exactly a kind thing to do. Nor is walking away e.g. when your spouse develops a chronic illness. What "opportunity" has one given them? The opportunity to live out their days alone while you go date other folks?

I think for some divorce, not cheating, is seen as the ultimate backstab. I'll concede that cheating probably isn't too far down the list.