Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

 Both people have input, even if comes to divorce. It's not one person arbitrarily making decisions (in their own best interests) without their partner's knowledge. 

Sometimes yes. However, both may not agree as you note above. Sometimes, there's no knowledge until the other person suddenly walks.

Informing the other person well in advance doesn't make a unilateral decision to divorce much less selfish IMO if the other person is really against it or it will impact them severely, impact the kids, etc.

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

And when it's not easy, doesn't mean you should abandon your marriage.  Happy is work.  

Although it's tangential to the thread, as someone in a LT marriage, THIS is true IMO and something I fully agree with. As RS alluded to a few pages back, divorcing without at least trying to work on the marriage is a VERY selfish (possibly avoidant?) move.

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Timshel said:

So you are interested in a circular argument or some round about way of saying that Sometimes, Under Certain Circumstances,

To each their own, it seems like some gymnastics and the truth is simple.

I'm responding to what's being presented as "counter arguments." If it's circular reasoning that's just because that appears to be what's necessary to respond. I think my argument is actually pretty clear - divorce is a selfish move, just like cheating is. It can be more or less selfish, depending on circumstances. There seem to be many who don't agree or at least apparently wish they could logically disagree, and are trying to present reasons why that's not so, even though, in fact, it is. There are also several who DO agree (ie, "sometimes").

I agree with you that the truth is simple in this case, with the caveat that there is a wide range in how selfish a move divorce is, and that depends a lot on specifics.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, MilaVaneela said:

I don’t think that the tit for tat blanket statement “divorce is (always) as selfish/more selfish than cheating” is sound logic, in all honesty.

It’s not very equitable to force the cheated on spouse to just meekly accept their partner stepping outside the marriage with a smile and a “thank you sir, may I have another”. 

I don’t think that divorcing in a situation where the marriage has become untenable for both parties is selfish at all.   The stress and negativity from such an environment isn’t healthy for either person or any children involved. 
 

If the wandering party’s infidelity results in physical or [significant] financial harm to the betrayed then it is definitely NOT selfish for the betrayed to disentangle from the marriage.

The WS is not entitled to just do damage to their spouse and expect the spouse to absorb said damage continuously.

All true and reasonable points IMO.  I certainly did not mean to imply a blanket statement that divorce is always more selfish than cheating. Thanks for posting.

[mark clemson]

It's Wednesday night (US). Did I miss anyone (in the sense that I didn't respond to a point of major significance to the topic)?

Edited December 3, 2020 by mark clemson

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I'm talking about divorcing, particularly unilaterally, or by any other name... 

Unilateral divorce is the natural consequence of betrayal. 

If one spouse can make the unilateral decision to be unfaithful, the other spouse has the right to make the unilateral decision to file for divorce. Period. 

[BaileyB]

Let’s take the word selfish out of this discussion. 

Let’s talk about values - respect, honesty, integrity, responsibility, kindness, fairness. How do those values fit within your discussion about what is more “selfish” - to have a secret affair or to make the decision that ones marriage is no longer meeting their needs and file for divorce. One can (may not always) be done while respecting the values often considered to be positive character traits, the other can not. 

To me, it takes courage to gather your self respect, assert a healthy boundary, and file for divorce/start a new life without ones spouse. Particularly if there are children involved, one must be selfless to do it well...

Edited December 3, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

13 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Unilateral divorce is the natural consequence of betrayal.  If one spouse can make the unilateral decision to be unfaithful, the other spouse has the right to make the unilateral decision to file for divorce. Period. 

Well - in my overall point, I was actually thinking of a divorce independent of cheating/betrayal.

I'm not sure about "natural consequences" as a certain % of BSs actually seem to wish they could hold on to their WS. Certainly I don't think anyone could reasonably expect a BS to stay and claim they had no good reason to divorce if that's what they chose to do. I pretty much stated that earlier in response to a different PP and certainly think it's a reasonable view.

In many, but certainly not all, places people have a right to divorce for any reason whatsoever, including no apparent reason at all if they are willing to use boilerplate language like "irreconcilable differences."

[mark clemson]

15 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Let’s take the word selfish out of this discussion.

Sorry, but respectfully - let's actually NOT do that, because that's the point of this thread. The word "selfish" is bandied about quite a lot, which is what prompted it.

I'm not interested in advocating for affairs OR trying to (IMO irrationally) defend their negative points, which are many. Or having posters draw up litanies of the bad things about affairs which they do at length in other threads anyhow (and in fact have already done plenty of, unnecessarily, in THIS thread). I AM interested in contrasting the selfishness inherent affairs against the selfishness inherent in many divorces.

Edited December 3, 2020 by mark clemson

[Amethyst68]

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

divorcing without at least trying to work on the marriage is a VERY selfish (possibly avoidant?) move.

Having an affair is the antithesis of working on your marriage. 

[SolG]

@mark clemson I think there's a fundamental flaw in your logic here. Selfishness isn't defined by averting potential outcome, it's determined by the degree of self interest in the process of considering the potential outcome.

If the average WS was really most concerned about the potential outcome, they wouldn't cheat in the first place. If you were seriously concerned about the impact of instability on your family unit, you would avoid behaviour that could lead to that instability in the first place. And if they truly had the interests of others in their sights it would involve at least some degree of honesty and engagement. Or at least planning to mitigate.

Your example of leaving a spouse with health issues is an admirable attempt at justification; however, as most of us know you can contnue to financially support anyone you want to if that's the real issue.

Or is the real issue guilt? Or being seen as a horrible person? Or your children denouncing you, or having less time with them? Or a demotion in community standing? Or dealing with an emotional spouse, or their family, that you like but don't love? All sounds pretty selfish to me!

I think for a WS to have an affair and then determine that witholding that fact is somehow altruistic is an act of smoke and mirror thinking in the sublime.

[Starswillshine]

Cheating is ways selfish. 

Divorce can sometimes be selfish. Especially in a case where it is kept secret and the person just walks out without warning that it was going to happen. And usually in those cases, there is someone else. 

Cheating is always MORE selfish due to the deceit involved. 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Off topic tangent

[pepperbird2]

Just my opinion...
I've never been a WS, so I have to base my opinion on what I see in others. Most don't seem to be bad or selfish people. Maybe "selfish" is the wrong word? Maybe "self centred" would be better?
Like I said, I've never been a WS, but I don't recall hearing of many ( or any) that sat down and made a calculated decision to have an affair. It was more an act of opportunity. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I don't think it's very common.

If what I have seen is typical, is usually just that a spouse, for whatever reason, is "prime" for an affair. I'm not sure how many carefully weigh out the pros and cons and decide it's worth it.

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

Having an affair is the antithesis of working on your marriage. 

A fair point IMO.

[Uruktopi]

7 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

Having an affair is the antithesis of working on your marriage. 

May be it would fit to "working hard on ending your marriage"?

[mark clemson]

You make some interesting points. Some thoughts/responses:

6 hours ago, SolG said:

I think there's a fundamental flaw in your logic here. Selfishness isn't defined by averting potential outcome, it's determined by the degree of self interest in the process of considering the potential outcome.

Hmm. Well, I'm not actually saying they are NOT selfish. I'm saying both acts are selfish. Here's how I'm thinking of it (I think you realize): The "level" of selfishness of taking the risk of cheating can reasonably be weighed against the selfishness of simply up a leaving your family, presumably to live an independent life, date others, etc.

IF you think selfish is the wrong word or way of thinking of it - how would you describe a WS who (in their personal thought process) decides to cheat instead of divorcing because they genuinely felt their case it's the lesser of two evils for all involved?. Selfless??  I wouldn't. I think "less selfish" fits, but I'm not sure how to describe/phrase your way of thinking of it.

 

6 hours ago, SolG said:

If the average WS was really most concerned about the potential outcome, they wouldn't cheat in the first place. If you were seriously concerned about the impact of instability on your family unit, you would avoid behaviour that could lead to that instability in the first place. And if they truly had the interests of others in their sights it would involve at least some degree of honesty and engagement. Or at least planning to mitigate.

Obviously the least selfish thing (all other things being equal) is to stay put and suck it up. This whole thread implies a situation the person is unhappy enough that they are willing to divorce. So personal interest/level of unhappiness has outweighed willingness to simply put up with their situation. That's already a given here. Certainly engaging with a spouse and trying to fix things SHOULD be a first step. You can safely assume that has been tried and not resolved, e.g. the spouse won't or can't change and won't accept leaving the person with the options to leave or cheat (or possibly think of an alternative I'm not thinking of).

 

6 hours ago, SolG said:

Your example of leaving a spouse with health issues is an admirable attempt at justification; however, as most of us know you can contnue to financially support anyone you want to if that's the real issue.

This is actually the closest thing I've seen to a logical argument in this whole thread IMO. You can leave but still support the person. It's a plausible course of action. I think it is in actuality more of an "in theory" option due to significant practical concerns:

1) If you actually separate and want to move on (romantically) you'll want to live separately. So you will be paying to support them. This implies one has enough money to actually DO this beyond what will be required by spousal and/or child support. So this would be an option primarily for the very well off or those willing to take significant financial risks in the interests of their personal "morality".

2) The Ex becomes an orbiter in a very significant way. They are in your life. Any new partner will see your supporting them at minimum as a financial drain (beyond what's legally mandated via the divorce). More likely they will think the level of support for the Ex means that you are in truth committed to them and that they are a placeholder partner of sorts. What if costs increase dramatically? What if the Ex recovers - would you then go back to them? I think most intelligent people would see this situation as sufficiently sketchy to make them move on once they understand what's going on.

So, while anyone could, in theory, do this, unless you are rich and not really worried about what potential partners might think, it's not a truly viable option as a matter of practical reality.

(Note: I have a relevant personal anecdote relating to this, which I will share a bit later.)

 

6 hours ago, SolG said:

Or is the real issue guilt? Or being seen as a horrible person? Or your children denouncing you, or having less time with them? Or a demotion in community standing? Or dealing with an emotional spouse, or their family, that you like but don't love? All sounds pretty selfish to me!

I think for a WS to have an affair and then determine that witholding that fact is somehow altruistic is an act of smoke and mirror thinking in the sublime.

I never said these actions (EITHER one) were altruistic. I said the selfishness of cheating can be reasonably weighed against the selfishness of divorcing. Certainly all the factors you mention can come into play into a person's thought processes.

[elaine567]

It is really about morality, the cheater is seen as having no moral high ground and is seen as selfishness personified.
The person wanting a divorce from an unwilling partner, often has the moral high ground, so whilst they may be very selfish with the same goals as the cheater basically, ie seeking to meet their needs outside the marriage, they are not usually seen as selfishness personified.

Of course some seek divorce as they cannot live with an abusive/cheating/dishonest/crazy/... partner. 
Are they selfish too? I guess it depends...

[central]

A cheater's selfishness can sometimes be weighed against the selfishness of a partner that provides a motivation to cheat.  Doubly so when repeated attempts to "work on" the marriage have been rebuffed.

[mark clemson]

^^  definitely fair and interesting points, Elaine and Central - thanks!

 

[mark clemson]

On 12/3/2020 at 3:45 AM, Starswillshine said:

Cheating is always MORE selfish due to the deceit involved.

This I respectfully disagree with. Deceit is not inherently selfish - for example the Underground Railroad or those who helps Jews flee from the Nazis. For clarity, I am absolutely NOT trying to suggest cheating is on a par with genuinely selfless actions like that. I'm just noting the deceit doesn't in and of itself make things more selfish. And you note cases where divorce involves deceit, which is probably not uncommon.

Contrast a drunken ONS that is confessed and forgiven six months later with a planned-out "surprise" divorce of someone who has no job skills, mental health issues, and 3 shared children to support. Say they've been married 6 years and will do only 3 years of spousal support. I don't think it's a contest - the divorcing person is leaving their partner high and dry.

On 12/3/2020 at 3:45 AM, Starswillshine said:

 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Off topic tangent

[KaterinaVon]

I think it’s about laziness. It’s just easier to cheat on the down low than to fight it out, hire lawyers, go through the paperwork, miss days of work to sort it out, pay child support, pay alimony, look like the bad guy to your spouses family and mutual friends, it’s all a hassle and who wants a hassle ? People are lazy and entitled, the easier they can make their life the better and who cares whom they have to betray to get it ? 

If all you want is some sex and affection, you don’t need to go through that whole ordeal of divorce just to get it, you can cheat on the side, if you do it smartly and no one knows. It’s a win for you. 
 

See how ALL of that is just about what’s easier and more convenient for YOU ? 

YES an affair is more selfish than divorce always 

[mark clemson]

6 minutes ago, KaterinaVon said:

It’s just easier to cheat on the down low than to fight it out, hire lawyers, go through the paperwork, miss days of work to sort it out, pay child support, pay alimony, look like the bad guy to your spouses family and mutual friends, it’s all a hassle and who wants a hassle ?

Opinions aside, I think this is a valid point and probably factors into some folks decision making processes. Practical issues often supersede sentiment. These are also likely to be among the reasons why some people who don't cheat stay in miserable marriages, in some cases.

[SMoore]

Just a small point.  The WS is being pitched here as a bit of a stereotype if you don’t mind me saying.  It is much easier to picture a callous, uncaring, calculating villain who embarks on a pre-meditated plan of lying and using and then cowardly secrecy, and then rip this straw man to shreds, than entertain the notion that other factors might be at play.  Loneliness, raging dopamine, mental health issues, naivety, delusion, circumstances, desperation, addiction - these things can all play a part.  Selfishness is there too, yes.  But the question can’t be answered without a bit more nuance.

In some situations, just like other offenders, the WS could easily be seen as a victim too.  This is not to say he/she shouldn’t be accountable, but there is a much wider canvas here to paint on.

This is one reason why there is no simple answer.  People making decisions - about affairs or divorce - are not always thinking rationally and haven’t always done a cost/benefit analysis beforehand.

[KaterinaVon]

50 minutes ago, SMoore said:

“   It is much easier to picture a callous, uncaring, caring, calculating villain who embarks on a pre-meditated plan of lying and using and then cowardly secrecy, and then rip this straw man to shreds, than entertain the notion that other factors might be at play.  Loneliness, raging dopamine, mental health issues, naivety, delusion, circumstances, desperation, addiction - these things can all play a part.  Selfishness is there too, yes.  But the question can’t be answered without a bit more nuance. “

 

 

 

The same thing can be said about a serial killer, a pedophile, a rapist, doesn’t mean any of those are acceptable though, wrong is wrong no matter how “lonely “ you feel or the mental state you are in, and as far as cheating there are other ways out that don’t involve deceit and lies to serve your purpose that only benefits you and no one else, an affair is not a benefit to your spouse and even if they were a crummy person two wrongs don’t make a right. Divorce your spouse if they are so horrible to you, but most cheaters don’t cheat because their home life is unbearable, they cheat because they just want a little something extra their spouse isn’t providing they have no intention of actually leaving their marriage. Boy does life just revolve around their needs or what ? 

Edited December 4, 2020 by KaterinaVon

[mark clemson]

18 minutes ago, KaterinaVon said:

wrong is wrong no matter how “lonely “ you feel or the mental state you are in, and as far as cheating there are other ways out that don’t involve deceit and lies to serve your purpose that only benefits you and no one else, an affair is not a benefit to your spouse and even if they were a crummy person two wrongs don’t make a right.

The "other way" is primarily divorce. The point of this thread IS to point out that what is seen as "right" by some people very much carries its own negative (and sometimes VERY negative) consequences. It can, and frequently does, ALSO involve deceit and lies to serve the purpose of the divorcing person.

You seem intent on denying these facts. Why?