Communication difficulties

[boymommy]

19 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

You don't know what I think of marriage,  I don't see the point of marrying because I come from a culture that don't marry and still we remain together a life time, have kids, acquire assets, retire together and get burried in the same lot. Where I am from if we marry it's actually against the law to take our husband's name. My mother  (73) does not have my father's name and it's normal to us. So, my view on marriage has nothing to do with your bf's bitter view of marriage. 

I've seen you post about that before I believe. But I have to say that despite it being a cultural issue or just a more wounded bitter distain for marriage, it's really no different. Against marriage is against marriage and it comes across in your posts. 

Now that being said..what you said did hit home. It's futile at this point trying to continue to talk to him about something that he never wanted to begin with. Or at the most was ambivalent about. So now is the time to back off and start taking care of myself and process my own thoughts. Driving myself nuts trying to get answers from him isn't going to work so now is the time to find my own answers. This thread has helped me tremedously start to do just that. Thank you.

[trident_2020]

@boymommy you are putting way too much importance on marriage and losing sight of the goals here.

It's fairly obvious that he doesn't want the commitment of marriage and yet you keep on pushing him, to the point that you broke up with him because he wouldn't marry you. He's doing the slow fade and you haven't even remotely considered pulling back on the pressure you're piling on him with this marriage nonsense.

You're going to lose him, all because you want a ring and piece of paper that is all but meaningless except when it comes to paying the court and attorney fees to dissolve the union.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by trident_2020

[boymommy]

1 minute ago, trident_2020 said:

@boymommy you are putting way too much importance on marriage and losing sight of the goals here.

It's fairly obvious that he doesn't want the commitment of marriage and yet you keep on pushing him, to the point that you broke up with him because he wouldn't marry you. He's doing the slow fade and you haven't even remotely considered pulling back on the pressure you're piling on him with this marriage nonsense.

You're going to lose him, all because you want a ring and piece of paper that is all but meaningless except when it comes to paying the court and attorney fees to dissolve the union.

 

 

Well those obviously are not my belief systems or values and never will be. But as I just posted I will back off because trying to get answers out of him because it isn't going to work. I think I thought if he could give me a solid "no I don't want to get married" it will be easier to walk away. I would possibly have to do some processing on whether that's true however. I think it would still be just as hard in reality and wouldn't change my feelings about the situation to hear him say it vs hearing super wishy washy ambivalent answers. I will back off and find my own answers. I need to do my own processing and need some time to do that. 

 

[Gaeta]

9 minutes ago, boymommy said:

Against marriage is against marriage and it comes across in your posts. 

Slow down, I am not against marriage. I was married once. My bf and I spoke about marriage and I was not against it. Him and I hit a wall when I said I could marry but I could not take his name as to me taking a man's name is a symbol of submission. As you see, I am not against it. I would simply not lose someone I love over it. 

[Gaeta]

3 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

 

Slow down, I am not against marriage. I was married once. My bf and I spoke about marriage and I was not against it. Him and I hit a wall when I said I could marry but I could not take his name as to me taking a man's name is a symbol of submission (he wanted us to marry in France so I could take his name) As you see, I am not against marriage. I would simply not lose someone I love over it. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Gaeta

[trident_2020]

1 hour ago, Gaeta said:

 to me taking a man's name is a symbol of submission

So taking your boyfriends name in marriage is submission but giving him the green light to have multiple affairs with at least 3 different women is ok?

 

[Gaeta]

1 minute ago, trident_2020 said:

So taking your boyfriends name in marriage is submission but giving him the green light to have multiple affairs with at least 3 different women is ok?

 

This thread is not about me.

[poppyfields]

 

Quote

Him and I hit a wall when I said I could marry but I could not take his name as to me taking a man's name is a symbol of submission. 

Interesting!  That's actually what I like about it!  Or one of the things.  

But I'm into the whole masculine/feminine thing so that may be why.

But it's mostly about feeling like a family.  We will share the same last name, to me it will feel like we are a family.  

We all have different ideas and opinions but @boymommyI get where your at.

My advice is to stop asking him about it, to him it probably feels like pushing and when someone feels pushed, their instinct is to recoil and pull back.  

Leave it alone, let him come to that on his own which he will be more inclined to do if you leave it alone.  

Give yourself a timeframe say another six months to a year.  If nothing has changed, time to rethink priorities as they pertain to him and your future together.  

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by poppyfields

[elaine567]

8 hours ago, boymommy said:

. I think I thought if he could give me a solid "no I don't want to get married" it will be easier to walk away.

Has he ever give you a solid "Yes I want to get married (to you)"?

[Wiseman2]

After investigating 3 years and both of you getting into a complacent comfort zone, it's heartbreaking to realize you're at an impasse.

Your choices, both of which are unhappy are:  continue coasting along or cut your losses.

Be glad you bought your own house for yourself and your children . Smart move.

Many people don't believe in marriage and that's fine. However if you see the realistic legal realities of growing old as a legal family unit that's fine.

Many people live together then soon find out thier legal status is nothing more than roommates or co-owner of of some property.

All of these mores and legalities are also different from area to area, generation to generation and most of all individual to individual.

[boymommy]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Has he ever give you a solid "Yes I want to get married (to you)"?

No. His responses are very “indirect” and “beat around the bush.” Unless I am in denial though it doesnt come off as a guy who is against marriage (or marrying me) either though. Like he’s he’s trying to but himself more time because he knows my patience is wearing thin (because I move faster)

Like he never flat out says he wants to get married or he wants to marry me. But in discussions that I have brought up he’s said it’s “on the table” or it’s a “possiblity” or “in 3 years then why not?” You know very vague. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by boymommy

[poppyfields]

1 hour ago, boymommy said:

No. His responses are very “indirect” and “beat around the bush.” Unless I am in denial though it doesnt come off as a guy who is against marriage (or marrying me) either though. Like he’s he’s trying to but himself more time because he knows my patience is wearing thin (because I move faster)

Like he never flat out says he wants to get married or he wants to marry me. But in discussions that I have brought up he’s said it’s “on the table” or it’s a “possiblity” or “in 3 years then why not?” You know very vague. 

I'm going to stop harping on "commitmentphobia" (fears and anxieties surrounding commitment) because most folks here don't believe it's a real thing, BUT it's been documented in books and articles discussing such fears/anxiety that "commitmentphobes" have difficulty committing to no just as much as they do committing to yes.  

So they sort of wobble in between, never giving their partner a straight answer.  Both decisions cause them extreme anxiety. 

Here boymommy, he can't say yes to marriage, but can't say no either.

He can't say no to break up no matter how boxed-in or pushed he feels but can't say yes to moving  forward in a healthy manner.

Or, they say yes but take it back like he did when he agreed to counseling but never followed through with it.

It's also common for them to find themselves attracted to women like you, who crave commitment.  There is always a lot of push/pull in these relationships.   One person pushing, the other pulling.  Recoiling. 

Take from that what you will but I think you are wasting your time here boymommy.  He is 47, he's not moving from his current mindset. 

It clear to me he doesn't want marriage, and never will.   Whether it causes him anxiety or he lacks the desire, does not matter.  The end result is the same -- he is not going to marry you.  

I'm so sorry to be this blunt.  I posted before to give yourself a time frame  but after reading your recent post, if marriage is what you want, you are wasting your time with this.

You are a lovely intelligent woman with a lot to give.  Save all your loveliness for a man who knows how to give to you in the ways you need and deserve.  

Hugs.

 

[Acacia98]

13 hours ago, trident_2020 said:

@boymommy you are putting way too much importance on marriage and losing sight of the goals here.

It's fairly obvious that he doesn't want the commitment of marriage and yet you keep on pushing him, to the point that you broke up with him because he wouldn't marry you. He's doing the slow fade and you haven't even remotely considered pulling back on the pressure you're piling on him with this marriage nonsense.

You're going to lose him, all because you want a ring and piece of paper that is all but meaningless except when it comes to paying the court and attorney fees to dissolve the union.

 

 

Why should she toss a value that matters to her in the trash just because someone else doesn't care about it? That's not how building healthy relationships works. 

And let's be honest: if the ring and piece of paper are really as meaningless as some folks like to say they are, then marrying when you don't believe in it should be easy. I mean it's just a ring and a piece of paper, it doesn't really mean anything, right? 

[Acacia98]

9 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I'm going to stop harping on "commitmentphobia" (fears and anxieties surrounding commitment) because most folks here don't believe it's a real thing, BUT it's been documented in books and articles discussing such fears/anxiety that "commitmentphobes" have difficulty committing to no just as much as they do committing to yes.  

So they sort of wobble in between, never giving their partner a straight answer.  Both decisions cause them extreme anxiety.

I'm actually with you on the commitmentphobia thing. 

[Allupinnit]

I've both lived with a man outside of marriage and now I am married and they are worlds apart.  I also didn't take my H's last name, because I like mine better.

 

[boymommy]

51 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I'm going to stop harping on "commitmentphobia" (fears and anxieties surrounding commitment) because most folks here don't believe it's a real thing, BUT it's been documented in books and articles discussing such fears/anxiety that "commitmentphobes" have difficulty committing to no just as much as they do committing to yes.  

So they sort of wobble in between, never giving their partner a straight answer.  Both decisions cause them extreme anxiety. 

Here boymommy, he can't say yes to marriage, but can't say no either.

He can't say no to break up no matter how boxed-in or pushed he feels but can't say yes to moving  forward in a healthy manner.

Or, they say yes but take it back like he did when he agreed to counseling but never followed through with it.

It's also common for them to find themselves attracted to women like you, who crave commitment.  There is always a lot of push/pull in these relationships.   One person pushing, the other pulling.  Recoiling. 

Take from that what you will but I think you are wasting your time here boymommy.  He is 47, he's not moving from his current mindset. 

It clear to me he doesn't want marriage, and never will.   Whether it causes him anxiety or he lacks the desire, does not matter.  The end result is the same -- he is not going to marry you.  

I'm so sorry to be this blunt.  I posted before to give yourself a time frame  but after reading your recent post, if marriage is what you want, you are wasting your time with this.

You are a lovely intelligent woman with a lot to give.  Save all your loveliness for a man who knows how to give to you in the ways you need and deserve.  

Hugs.

 

I agree with you. I think he has commitmentphobia too. Ironically I have found myself in relationships (or just dated) lots of guys who have this problem. Like you said, I attract them, and they are attracted to me. Before I met my boyfriend I met guys who had issues committing to a relationship as well. They couldn't say yes, couldn't say no. It was the same thing my boyfriend does but it was getting into an actual relationship. I think why people think committmentphobia is fake is because in usual cases the person does not want to commit to a relationship with the person they are dating rarely does it extend to other areas of their life. In my boyfriend's case, his inability to make a sound decision DOES extend to a other areas. He defers to me for so many decisions (even very simple ones) and his lack of follow through on things that he says he will do but then basically NEVER follows through on doing is astounding (like getting a webcam). He basically cannot make a long term decision/committment to save his life. That's why when I start asking him he about it he comes up with those really strange indirect answers. Not a yes, not a no. He has a fear of even saying the words out loud..that to him is a committment. He said himself that by saying even the statement out loud it could generate false hope if it didn't end up happening. What that really means is that to him, even saying the words is a committment in itself and too scary to even fathom. So unless I basically make the decision about marriage he isn't going to I don't think. But that's really not what I want. I want a guy to surprise me with a proposal and get down on one knee. Not me have to put the idea in his head and plan it out for him. I mean what does he want me to do..set up the whole proposal myself and basically give him a play by play of what I want him to do? Ugh. NO. 

[Acacia98]

16 minutes ago, boymommy said:

I agree with you. I think he has commitmentphobia too. Ironically I have found myself in relationships (or just dated) lots of guys who have this problem. Like you said, I attract them, and they are attracted to me. Before I met my boyfriend I met guys who had issues committing to a relationship as well. They couldn't say yes, couldn't say no. It was the same thing my boyfriend does but it was getting into an actual relationship. I think why people think committmentphobia is fake is because in usual cases the person does not want to commit to a relationship with the person they are dating rarely does it extend to other areas of their life. In my boyfriend's case, his inability to make a sound decision DOES extend to a other areas. He defers to me for so many decisions (even very simple ones) and his lack of follow through on things that he says he will do but then basically NEVER follows through on doing is astounding (like getting a webcam). He basically cannot make a long term decision/committment to save his life. That's why when I start asking him he about it he comes up with those really strange indirect answers. Not a yes, not a no. He has a fear of even saying the words out loud..that to him is a committment. He said himself that by saying even the statement out loud it could generate false hope if it didn't end up happening. What that really means is that to him, even saying the words is a committment in itself and too scary to even fathom. So unless I basically make the decision about marriage he isn't going to I don't think. But that's really not what I want. I want a guy to surprise me with a proposal and get down on one knee. Not me have to put the idea in his head and plan it out for him. I mean what does he want me to do..set up the whole proposal myself and basically give him a play by play of what I want him to do? Ugh. NO. 

If you did that, he'd say you were doing exactly what his ex-wife did (if I remember your earlier posts correctly). You'd basically be auditioning to ultimately play the role of "evil" ex-wife.

[poppyfields]

30 minutes ago, boymommy said:

I agree with you. I think he has commitmentphobia too. Ironically I have found myself in relationships (or just dated) lots of guys who have this problem. Like you said, I attract them, and they are attracted to me. Before I met my boyfriend I met guys who had issues committing to a relationship as well. They couldn't say yes, couldn't say no. It was the same thing my boyfriend does but it was getting into an actual relationship. I think why people think committmentphobia is fake is because in usual cases the person does not want to commit to a relationship with the person they are dating rarely does it extend to other areas of their life. In my boyfriend's case, his inability to make a sound decision DOES extend to a other areas. He defers to me for so many decisions (even very simple ones) and his lack of follow through on things that he says he will do but then basically NEVER follows through on doing is astounding (like getting a webcam). He basically cannot make a long term decision/committment to save his life. That's why when I start asking him he about it he comes up with those really strange indirect answers. Not a yes, not a no. He has a fear of even saying the words out loud..that to him is a committment. He said himself that by saying even the statement out loud it could generate false hope if it didn't end up happening. What that really means is that to him, even saying the words is a committment in itself and too scary to even fathom. So unless I basically make the decision about marriage he isn't going to I don't think. But that's really not what I want. I want a guy to surprise me with a proposal and get down on one knee. Not me have to put the idea in his head and plan it out for him. I mean what does he want me to do..set up the whole proposal myself and basically give him a play by play of what I want him to do? Ugh. NO. 

I didn't want to get into it before, but what you wrote about his commitment anxietes extending to other areas of his life is 100% spot on.  

I have many stories to tell about men (and women) just like this, they are unable to make a decision or commit to anything!

One guy in the support group I used to attend, spoke about experiencing a near panic attack unable to decide what television set to buy!

With close relationships and marriage it's not that much different from claustrophobia, the feelings can be similar.  

They feel anxious, boxed in, suffocated, a "no way out" feeling.  Their symptoms can sometines be similar too.  

My brother once had a full fledged panic attack after agreeing to marriage with a former gf who was pushing for it.

He ended things the very next day with some cockamamie excuse and never saw her again. 

Sadly, there is no "right" person for people like this.  

EDIT:  Boymommy, knowing all this, may I ask why you stay? 

Edited December 2, 2020 by poppyfields

[boymommy]

16 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I didn't want to get into it before, but what you wrote about his commitment anxietes extending to other areas of his life is 100% spot on.  

I have many stories to tell about men (and women) just like this, they are unable to make a decision or commit to anything!

One guy in the support group I used to attend, had a near panic attack unable to decide what television set to buy!

With close relationships and marriage it's not that much different from claustrophobia, the feelings can be similar.  

They feel boxed in, suffocated, a "no way out" feeling.  Their symptoms can sometines be similar too.  

My brother once had a full fledged panic attack after agreeing to marriage with a former gf who was pushing for it.

He ended things the very next day.  

Oh geez that's so sad about your brother. I don't want that to be me, which is why I would NEVER give him an ultimatum or try to push him into it. I feel like even pushing the conversations I may be going too far sometimes. That's why I always ask him if he's okay having the conversation with me and how he feels. I'm very sensitive to him feeling pushed or pressured. (that's something I more recently started doing as a reflection of improvement in communication skills)

 I don't think I pegged him as committmentphobic when I first met him. He was really into it (but from doing more reading and search on this subject, usually people with this problem ARE great the first year or so and act very "normal" then basically start giving less when the threat of a deeper committment starts becoming more likely. I think he was great the first year because I was coming off a divorce and it was NOT in my thought process to even consider marriage! I think once I felt better and more in a position to be thinking serious about the relationship he probably picked up on this and was like WOAH. I am not suttle either, and I'm sure he understood at some point that my priorities in the relationship shifted over and it wasn't about just having fun anymore. I think I tried to real myself in by buying a house and developing more of a life outside of him, but most likely the shift had already happened and it just might have been too late. Or the more "serious" me intermittently still came out despite my attempts to play it more cool. As I said I'm not really great at playing it cool when its someone I really love. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by boymommy

[boymommy]

19 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

If you did that, he'd say you were doing exactly what his ex-wife did (if I remember your earlier posts correctly). You'd basically be auditioning to ultimately play the role of "evil" ex-wife.

Yeah, I would never do that! Yes his ex wife gave an ultimatum. I would never do that to him. I flat out told him he deserves to voluntarily want to commit to someone. But I don't know if he could ever get to that point and I think he questions that as well. He has asked me several times what will happen if he "never gets there?" It's heartbreaking to hear him ask because he says it in such a small scared voice. Ugh. 

[poppyfields]

There is a great book I recommend you read entitled "He's Scared, She's Scared, the Hidden Fears That Sabotage Our Relationships."

It discusses both active and passive commitment anxieties, how they work in conjunction with each other.

Here me out on this:

His anxieties are active.  He is clearly avoiding.  No refuting that.

Yours are passive and hidden, meaning you are not aware you even have any fears/anxiety about it.  You claim to want it more than anything!  

BUT, think about it.  If you truly wanted commitment and marriage, what the HECK are you doing with HIM?!!  He is not interested, unable and incapable of committing!  

Does that make sense to you?

A woman who truly wanted commitment and marriage and had no hidden or unhidden anxiety about it woud have ditched him a long long time ago and looked for a man who IS capable of committing.

Please consider this.  Does this feel "safe" to you on some subconscious level?  Introspect re hidden fears/anxieties you may be harboring that you are not even aware of.

And read the book I suggested, Amazon.com.  It helped me A LOT!

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by poppyfields

[elaine567]

53 minutes ago, boymommy said:

his lack of follow through on things that he says he will do but then basically NEVER follows through on doing is astounding (like getting a webcam).

I guess he doesn't want to get a webcam... Just like he doesn't want to get married.

There is a big difference between a fear of commitment and just not wanting to commit.
He has committed before, it is not as if he has never committed to anyone previously. 

[elaine567]

16 minutes ago, boymommy said:

He has asked me several times what will happen if he "never gets there?" It's heartbreaking to hear him ask because he says it in such a small scared voice. Ugh. 

He is testing the waters and is scared of your reaction, hence the timid voice...

[poppyfields]

13 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I guess he doesn't want to get a webcam... Just like he doesn't want to get married.

There is a big difference between a fear of commitment and just not wanting to commit.
He has committed before, it is not as if he has never committed to anyone previously. 

True but when you consider that commitment anxiety extends to other areas of his life (not only the webcam), I mean he can't even say the word "commitment" for crying out loud, something is seriously wrong.  

People with such fears can and do get married.  But it's always a disaster just like in his case.  Now he just won't do it.

Anyway, it doesn't matter.  Whether it causes him anxiety or he just doesn't want, the end result is the same.

Guy is not going to marry you.

boymommy at this point, instead of analyzing him, I would suggest you look within to determine why it is you choose to stay in this toxic mess. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by poppyfields

[Acacia98]

16 minutes ago, boymommy said:

He has asked me several times what will happen if he "never gets there?" It's heartbreaking to hear him ask because he says it in such a small scared voice. Ugh. 

Yeah... It is sad. And then I remember that if he was willing to put in the work with a good therapist, he might be able to face this and his other fears. So at some level, he is making a choice. And he has the right to do that. You, in turn, have the right to make whatever choice makes sense for you.