Could he be cheating?

[Stream]

We've been married for 12 years. Have 2 kids. I had a 6 month long affair 5 years ago. Husband found out. We've talked about infidelity before marriage and we both agreed that it would be a deal breaker for us. So he wanted out. It was a tough choice, because the kids were small, our finances were bad etc. But he still didn't want to try. He said he couldn't trust me again.

But I very strongly believed that we were meant to be together and that we could work things out. I knew that I would never cheat again and I would become the best wife he could ever find. I promised myself to do everything to prove him that I would be loyal and committed.

So I tried all the noble and not noble (I am not proud of this) ways to make him stay, and he did.

As I had promised, I did everything in my power to assure him I was loyal and loving. The first few years were rough for both of us. But later, things improved. 

I slowly earned his trust back, all the aspects of our marriage improved. We became very happy.

My husband had never given me any reason to doubt him and he is usually considered a righteous person. But ... Since very recently, intuition and certain discoveries disturb me.

My husband is a good writer, though it's not his profession. Whenever he gets inspired by good or bad things, he writes poems. So, whenever he felt romantic, he used to write poems about me, and share with me. After D day he hasn't written anything for me, which I understand. (I know that someday he'd start writing about me again) 

A few weeks back, while using his laptop for a urgent work, I discovered a lot of writing. He's been writing about a lot of things. He had written, about his pain and how he felt about my affair. Most of these were written on dates closer to D day. Then the frequency slowly drops. Two years after D day, there aren't many writings that describe pain. So even though it assured me that he's doing better than before, I was also saddened by the gravity of his previous pain. He never conveyed this to me and I could see the raw pain in his writing. I hate myself for hurting him that much. Even now when i recall those words, it makes me teary.

Anyway..I also discovered that since 6-7 weeks back, he's started writing romantic poems. I am very worried because, I don't know who he is writing about. It isn't about me. Because one.. he hasn't shared them with me, two.. the girl he describes doesn't resemble me. So... I don't know if he's cheating or considering cheating. I snooped his phone and laptop but couldn't find any proof of cheating. But my intuition says that something is up.

Also, 5 years ago in my desperate attempts to making him stay after my affair, I did the stupid thing of offering him a hall pass (bad idea, I know). I didn't worry about but too much, because, I knew that he would or could never use it.

Anyway, this is all bothering me now. I am constantly wondering if he is being faithful or if he would leave me etc

Has anyone been in a similar position? How do I proceed? How can I clear my doubts without his knowledge? 

I know that I've done horrible things. I know that this is karma. But please know that people change. After D day, I've been nothing but loyal and loving. 

[Wiseman2]

13 hours ago, Stream said:

I don't know if he's cheating or considering cheating. I snooped his phone and laptop but couldn't find any proof of cheating. But my intuition says that something is up.

 I did the stupid thing of offering him a hall pass. After D day, I've been nothing but loyal and loving. 

What is "D day" and "hall pass", and where are these terms/concepts from? Are these terms/things your marriage counselor used/recommended?  If you are snooping and there's a rift, you need to go back to marriage counselling. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Wiseman2

[Mrin]

He sounds like me in a way. I write when I am emotionally moved. It could be that he has indeed found someone else and is using, or considering using his hall pass. OR... It could be a fictitious woman.  Some way for him to visualize something he feels like is missing in your marriage. Either way, that is concerning. 

[schlumpy]

Are you sure that the women in the poem isn't his view of who you were before the affair?

After an affair you can't see your spouse in the same way again. He may prefer who he thought you were. 

[elaine567]

25 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

Are you sure that the women in the poem isn't his view of who you were before the affair?

After an affair you can't see your spouse in the same way again. He may prefer who he thought you were. 

Well that may be true, but if in the poem he is extolling the beauty of her raven black hair and the OP is a red head then... not so good

[mark clemson]

16 hours ago, Stream said:

my intuition says that something is up.

Judging from forums like this one, certainly it sometimes happens that after a reconciliation (often but not always accompanied by a LOT of contrition and "work" from the WS) the former BS turns right around and has their own affairs, sometimes multiple ones. Sometimes all while keeping the former WS on a permanent guilt trip, etc. So it's certainly possible. Whether it's actually happening in your case is of course impossible to say without some genuine evidence.

This might be the beginning of something like this or it might be just flights of fancy on his part. He could also have attraction to someone but little interest in actually acting on it. So, very hard to say.

[ajequals]

Well If he is.  then he had a hall pass right?  Just because he did not give you a poem doesn't mean he's cheating. I write them all the time when inspired but I don't always give them out unless I feel like it. How about. trusting him like you use to and stop snooping. I read once women are in charge of the relationship.  take charge

Edited November 13, 2020 by ajequals

[Pottering About]

Am I the only one who finds the whole concept of hall passes quite insulting and condescending?  Isn’t the truth that they are offered to lessen the WS’ guilt and are not aimed at helping the BS. 
 

Two questions: 

1) Are you transferring your ongoing guilt on to your husband, just ask him about the poems; and

2) What would be your reaction if he did cheat?

[Stream]

Thank you for you replies. I really appreciate it.

Wiseman2

Back then we never did any proper marriage counseling. However we did take regular advice from close family. I also read about affairs and saving marriages online, including from this website. This all helped a lot back then. I never had any reason to snoop before, until intuitions kicked in. At the moment there are no conflicts in the marriage and we are happy. If I suddenly ask him for marriage counseling, wouldn't he wonder why? I don't want to bother him unless there is a real reason to do so.

 

Mrin

The poems are not about me, because he describes a curly haired woman who can sing and can play music. That's not me unfortunately. I really hope it's about an imaginary woman.

Elaine

Yes, I have straight hair and the lady in the poem  has curly hair. I did some investigation to see if any women he knows match that profile. But couldn't find any. 

 

 

Mark Clemson

It is a possibility and it really scares me. But even if he is having an affair, I don't know how he'd find time. Because he works during the day and comes straight to home after. He is also the type of person who cannot be intimate with someone without an emotional connection. So it must be difficult for someone like him to just have an affair. 

I don't know. But I really hope he isn't having anything like that.

 

Pottering About

I was desperate to make him stay, so offers him everything. I am not transfering my guilt. I've tried my best to be the best wife for him. I haven't asked him about the poems, I don't know if I should asking about it. That's one reason why I am here. I don't know how to proceed further. I don't wanna do any mistakes and ruin everything.

If he is cheating, then that would be a big problem. We rebuilt everything from the ruins and it would mean that everything got ruined again. 

Ajequals

You are right. But.. it's just my intuitions are often correct and now I am frequently thinking about it. I wish this would stop.

 

[Stream]

What's the best way for me to proceed? Should I keep investigating until I find evidence for his faithfulness or unfaithfulness? Or should I try to forget about the whole issue and move on ? (This would be almost impossible)

Should I ask him about it? But.. what if he lies to me? 

What if he isn't cheating, and my question offends him and makes him mad?

What if he tells me that he is just using the hall pass?

The above questions constantly haunt me. Am I over reacting? 

 

[mark clemson]

Not sure if this is best. One possibility to consider would be to develop an interest in his poetry. ALL his poetry. (He knows you are aware he writes poetry, right?) Then go on his laptop and read most of it. Then you can legitimately ask what's up with the recent poems and see what he says and "intuit" more from that.

If he needs emotion to connect , this poetry could be a reflection of that developing. It could also be any number of other things, including idle ruminations. Overall I would say give him the benefit of a doubt first and foremost, while doing some reasonable checking JIC it's something more.

[Mrin]

A few thoughts for you:

1. Did he date a curly headed woman who could sing prior to you? He could be reliving an old memory or rekindling an old flame. 

2. I don't know if confronting him about this poetry is the right thing. I think for me I would be aghast at the violation of privacy. 

3. I would definitely keep investigating for other signs of infidelity. 

4. And I think I would open up a dialogue about his general happiness in the marriage and where he stands with your infidelity. He's probably not going to come out and say anything right away but you might be able to suss out some indications of where his head is at. You could probably even mention the hall pass.  Again - I'd not mention that you saw the poetry. They are almost like a diary to him  

Edited November 13, 2020 by Mrin

[mark clemson]

12 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Then go on his laptop and read most of it.

For clarity - with his consent and permission.

[Wiseman2]

59 minutes ago, Stream said:

we never did any proper marriage counseling. However we did take regular advice from close family. I also read about affairs and saving marriages online

Well your 'intuition' prompted you tp go through his laptop and phone and uncover poetry you are not sure of. Why make the same mistakes twice and never go for therapy and instead try this DIY approach to fixing your marriage and breached trust?  You were quite ill advised before why keep doing that?

Since the guilt, suspicions distrust keeps rearing it's head, clearly the DIY approach didn't help. Isn't marriage, trust and intimacy more important than fixing a leaky faucet in a DIY read-it-online, family-told-me-how manner?

"Free pass" by the way, is Not a therapeutic concept, it was bargaining, begging and a horrible idea gleaned from a sophomoric comedy film about sanctioned cheating. Whoever/whatever his poetry is about may or may not be significant. What Is significant is that you are snooping searching wondering etc.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Wiseman2

[schlumpy]

What about other signs of infidelity?

> Secretive when using his phone.

> Acting hot and cold.

> blowing up your minor faults

> sex life dropping off

> Comes home late with vague excuses.

> spiffs himself up before going out or to work

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Stream said:

. I did some investigation to see if any women he knows match that profile. But couldn't find any. 

 

1 hour ago, Stream said:

But even if he is having an affair, I don't know how he'd find time. Because he works during the day and comes straight to home after.

Coworker maybe?

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Mrin said:

1. Did he date a curly headed woman who could sing prior to you? He could be reliving an old memory or rekindling an old flame. 

2. I don't know if confronting him about this poetry is the right thing. I think for me I would be aghast at the violation of privacy. 

Great advice. 1. is the first thought that came to mind, a past love from youth and innocent days.

[Robert2016]

  Admit to him that you accidently discovered his poetry; compliment his writing; and somewhere near the end of the discussion ask him what or who inspired him to write the poems.

 

[deepthinking]

I wrote a poem about death the other day - 

 - but am now am planning my sparkly Christmas eye make-up. 

Perhaps if he goes out a lot and comes home late, then the hall pass seems on, but perhaps he is just a middle-aged dad who day-dreams

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by deepthinking

[Stream]

Thank you very much for your responses and suggestions.

mark clemson

Yes, I could do that. 

Mrin

No as far as I know, he hasn't dated anyone resembling that. I understand what you mean, he could be considering it his diary.

schlumpy

No other signs as such. But I must mention, the intimacy in sex had significantly dropped following D Day. Later gradually it's been improving, but it hasn't reached the pre affair state. 

elaine567

I know most of his co-workers, none have those characteristics. However I don't know if anyone new has joined, he hasn't mentioned anything like that. But.. I could go to his office on a random day and look around. I'll try to do that soon.

Robert2016

But if he was really cheating, he could lie to me may be? May be hide it well the next time? (I am so ashamed to say this.. but I use to do that to him during my affair) 

Wiseman2

The hall pass was my big mistake. I was very desperate back then, I only thought about the immediate fix it could make. Didn't think about the future impact. 

I got the families involved, because he respects elders and they have a  heavy influence on him. So first I had to convince them that I genuinely wanted to save the marriage and then they helped me convince him. Also, he's introverted and he doesn't easily open up to new people. Those reasons made me involve family.

[Pottering About]

Stream, I really do sympathise with you as you are in a very difficult position, both morally and emotionally You have had the experience of an affair (not being judgemental) so know actions you took to keep it secret and I do wonder if you are applying that thinking to your husband’s poetry. Just because you did it, does not mean that he will. 
 

So, worse case scenario is that he is having, or about to embark on, an affair. What are you going to do f this is the case? Would it be the end of the marriage or would you be prepared to go through the same pain and hurt your husband went through to save your marriage? What can you take from everything you and his family did to help you move forward if the boot is on the other foot? 
 

I know you have said that your marriage improved in all aspects and you became very happy. Is it possible that you are very happy because you think everything is now tickety  boo but that your husband, whilst say 75%, happy, is still suffering at some level and your marriage will never return to its previous happiness? You say there aren’t many poems showing his pain now but that implies there must still be some. How long has it been since he wrote you a poem? Whichever way this goes, do you think you need to explore your relationship further?

 

You say that since D Day, you have been nothing but loving and loyal. Your current situation may put that to a real test. I have read this post a few times before submitting it as I can see it is quite harsh. I want to reassure you this is not beating down on you but there is also no point in sweeping things under the carpet because they may be upsetting to hear. I really do wish you and your husband all the very best for a long and happy marriage.

[Wiseman2]

Unfortunately you're in a tough position. You don't want to admit you betrayed him again by rifling through his things and betraying trust.

Yet your unresolved guilt compelled you to assume the worst.

Your marriage has been in trouble for quite a while. You don't trust him. The elephant of your secret activities whether it's cheating snooping etc. is still in the room.

This is why you need to get off those infidelity sites full of angry people, bad advice and get into appropriate professional counseling for yourself.

Not sure what you mean by "elders convinced him to stay". Do you mean he reluctantly agreed not to divorce you?

 

[Fletch Lives]

One of the main reasons people cheat is for revenge. So, because you cheated, there is a high chance he cheated back.

Yes, people change. But when it comes to love, once it dies, it's all over except for the cryin'. 

[Stream]

Thank you very much for your replies.

Pottering About

Yes, you are right. I think I am assuming he could do those things because I used to be cunning enough to do.

In the worst case scenario, if he had cheated that is.. I think it'll be big blow to the marriage. I think this time the situation would be worse than the previous time, because.. if he cheated on me after having first hand experience of the pain it could cause and the risk it has on runing the marriage.. I think it would be a way worse action than mine. I am not trying to minimise my past fault, I think it's a dominos effect from my past actions. 

If he did cheat or is preparing to do so.. then I'd be very hurt. But I will also try my best to save the marriage. Because he deserves a chance and I think I have my share of responsibility for pushing him.

Yes, I think you are right. I might see the marriage as a happy one, but deep down he might be not as happy with it as I. Before D day, he'd be flooding me with poems and and catchy one or two sentenced random texts. But after D day, the frequency dropped. He attempted to share poems but.. those weren't as genuine and as beautiful as the ones he used to share. I felt like he was trying to assure me that he was ok and things were normal. I didn't talk to him about that, because.. I didn't wanna put him through uncomfort. The last time I got one was in the begining of this year.

May I know what you meant by 'explore the relationship' ? If you meant working on the relationship, yes! 

Thank you very much Pottering About

I don't think you are being harsh at all. All your points are very helpful and makes me do a lot of thinking.

 Wiseman2

Yes, I don't want him to give the idea that I am betraying him again. You are right, I am attempting to measure under the assumption that he'd be acting like me.

Actually until very recently I had a lot of trust in him (I think I still do). One of the main reasons why I was attracted to him was his integrity and loyalty to his loved ones. I started having doubts only after my sudden intuition and the unintentional discovery of his writings. 

I am sure the professionals will be very helpful, but I also think sites like these help. The sites gave me valuable information on saving marriages, made me learn from others who were going through similar and also made me see how betrayed spouses feel and think. But.. as you suggest, I will think seriously think about marriage counseling.

I had to make the families involved because he took off immediately after D day. If not for them, I wouldn't have had a chance to prove myself to him. So yes, he agreed to stay reluctantly. I kinda forced him to stay. I am not proud of the way I made him not leave home, but I had to do it to save the marriage. Later.. I showered him with love and care and showed him how sorry I was for my actions. 

Fletch Lives

I know. I hope that he isn't cheating. 

Also.. I know that he still loves me a lot. I feel it. 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Stream

[Stream]

Shall I tell him the truth? Talk to him or send a long emotional text like this?

"I had to urgently use your laptop and after using, I discovered your poems folder. It made me curious and excited, because I've always loved your writing. So I started reading them. While reading I came across your poems on my affair and the pain you felt. Then I knew that it was personal like a diary, but I kept reading because it made me understand how badly I hurt you. You never conveyed your pain in such detail when we used to talk about saving the marriage. So to know your real pain, I kept reading it. The more I read the more I realised how strong you were and how lucky I was to have you. 

Then finally I came across your romantic poems. I read them thinking that you had already shared them with me. However, I realised that you were describing some other girl. I immediately felt uncomfortable and threatened. A lot of negative thoughts started appearing on my mind, including thoughts of you leaving me. I know that it's very unfair of me to think this way as you have never given any reason for me to doubt you.. ever. I also gave you the 'hall pass' 5 years back, so I don't have any rights to question you now. 

But.. the thought of you thinking about another woman hurts like hell. So I wanted to ask you.. is there anyone else?

I know that am a hypocrite and I hurt you badly.. but I am also a woman who loves you more than anything and a mom who wants the happiest home for her kids. So I decided  to ask."

Or shall I do more investigation?

I think I prefer telling him the complete truth and how I feel.. because that way there won't be any reason for me to be manipulative or remember lies. I can be honest and genuine.

What do you guys think?