Dreading tonight

[notbroken]

What's your plan now that you've moved to the other bedroom?  Is that the first step to moving out of the house?  

 

[QTpie123]

2 hours ago, notbroken said:

What's your plan now that you've moved to the other bedroom?  Is that the first step to moving out of the house?  

 

I’m not sure to tell the truth. I know I needed more space. The move has seemed to be the right one for me as I feel more relaxed now. 
 

 

[QTpie123]

I told husband that I didn’t think MC would work and he asked so you don’t want me to look into finding one tomorrow?  I told him no. When I got home yesterday he told me he is selling some of his stuff to pay for MC. 
 

I feel bad about this. And I feel pressured by this to not only attend counseling but what if it doesn’t work?

 

[Wiseman2]

54 minutes ago, QTpie123 said:

I feel bad about this. And I feel pressured by this to not only attend counseling but what if it doesn’t work?

Don't feel bad. It's ironic that he is coercing you to go to marriage therapy when being coercive in itself is a trust/marriage killer. Don't be strong armed. If you want to go the passive-aggressive approach (safer in coercive environments) go a couple times then quit.

In fact it may provide the perfect cover for you to get your ducks in a row, contact a divorce attorney, etc. Let his coercive tactics work to your benefit. He seems like the type of guy who drags his wife to therapy, like a car to the shop. "Here, fix her, she won't sleep with me".

Edited October 27, 2020 by Wiseman2

[Milly May June]

MC is to fix marriage problems. Your marriage was not the problem, your husbands cheating is. Once you make a decision to work on the relationship then book MC. For both of you the focus right now should be IC. 

OP, what steps (apart from booking MC) has your husband taken to try to earn your trust and help you heal from this trauma? 

 

[QTpie123]

37 minutes ago, Milly May June said:

OP, what steps (apart from booking MC) has your husband taken to try to earn your trust and help you heal from this trauma? 

 

He has stopped drinking altogether has only had one night that I know of where he drank. I had been asking him to stop for years. So 2 months of little to no alcohol. 
 

he is trying to be calmer and not yell at everyone all the time

he Is spending more one on one time with our son 

He is doing housework

he says he’s reading books about affairs but since 10-3 and probably longer they haven’t been touched and the bookmark is still on page 112 of the first book which he claims he’s read already. 
 

ETA even after MC told him he should give me password to his email phone and iPad he hasn’t. He agreed in MC but never went through with it. I never asked once we got out of that MC session as I didn’t feel I needed to and I’m not sure I want to keep tabs on him like he is my child. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by QTpie123

[Milly May June]

Has he signed up for AA to learn the tools for deal with this addiction (does he even see it as addiction)? 

Is he honest with you, answering your questions and being emphatic towards how you feel? Or is he defensive and/or blameshifting? Is he too tired to talk or gets angry or frustrated when you being up the affairs? Does he just want this to vanish, put it under the rug and move on with life? 

The lack of transparency is a big red flag. He should give you access and you can choose if you want to monitor or not. I am sorry but i do not think he has told you everything. TT (trickle truth) is very common. Be prepared. 

The main question is what is his goal for personal devemopment at this point? He seems to do halfhearted attemts at starting but just kind of slips up and slacks off.. What i find most interesting, and it can tell you a lot, is the fact that he choose to go hunting over the weekend instead of buckling up and at the very least educating himself on how to become a safe partner for his wife. 

As for doing house work and being a dad, well that is not a bonus but an expectation of a husband and dad. 

To me it feel as if he is just scratching the surface and I dont know if this is good enough for you! I dont even think he has a clear direcrion. He might get there but he definetly needs help on this journey. Is he in IC? If not, that would be money well spent! He needs help to figure out why he did what he did and find motivation to be better. 

Apart from you moving out of the bedroom, has he had any conseqenses? Have you consulted with a lawyer to educate yourself on your rights in case you do choose D? 

Sorry for sooo many questions. You do not need to answer them. Its just some things for you to reflect on so you get a feel for how sensire he is by showing you and not telling you. This guys marriage is on the line and instead of moving mountans he is acting like 'meh'... 

[QTpie123]

14 hours ago, Milly May June said:

Has he signed up for AA to learn the tools for deal with this addiction (does he even see it as addiction)? 

Is he honest with you, answering your questions and being emphatic towards how you feel? Or is he defensive and/or blameshifting? Is he too tired to talk or gets angry or frustrated when you being up the affairs? Does he just want this to vanish, put it under the rug and move on with life? 

The lack of transparency is a big red flag. He should give you access and you can choose if you want to monitor or not. I am sorry but i do not think he has told you everything. TT (trickle truth) is very common. Be prepared. 

The main question is what is his goal for personal devemopment at this point? He seems to do halfhearted attemts at starting but just kind of slips up and slacks off.. What i find most interesting, and it can tell you a lot, is the fact that he choose to go hunting over the weekend instead of buckling up and at the very least educating himself on how to become a safe partner for his wife. 

As for doing house work and being a dad, well that is not a bonus but an expectation of a husband and dad. 

To me it feel as if he is just scratching the surface and I dont know if this is good enough for you! I dont even think he has a clear direcrion. He might get there but he definetly needs help on this journey. Is he in IC? If not, that would be money well spent! He needs help to figure out why he did what he did and find motivation to be better. 

Apart from you moving out of the bedroom, has he had any conseqenses? Have you consulted with a lawyer to educate yourself on your rights in case you do choose D? 

Sorry for sooo many questions. You do not need to answer them. Its just some things for you to reflect on so you get a feel for how sensire he is by showing you and not telling you. This guys marriage is on the line and instead of moving mountans he is acting like 'meh'... 

he has not joined AA. I believe he sees it as an addiction. But he also thinks he’s beat it all ready. 

he is empathetic with me and answers my questions but is still blame shifting and being dismissive about his actions. “They were just friends” “I didn’t realize what I was doing was wrong at the time” and bring up the A I had 16 years ago when we talk about his A’s even though he says he has forgiven me for it a so forgave his PA 4 years ago  

at first I thought he wanted to rug sweep it and that he really didn’t believe what he did was so bad because it wasn’t physical. But I think he may be beginning to see it differently now. I’m not sure though. When asked if he really thinks it’s an A he has to talk himself through to the answer...well I was asking for and saying inappropriate things...so...I can see how it is.. yeas it was an affair  

his lack of transparency isn’t a good thing in my mind. Even if I don’t go look he should not have his iPad locked and should have immediately given me his passwords. I’m now to the point of I don’t care to look. I’ve seen enough. 
 

the hunting trip is a yearly thing that has been done with him and his dad and now him with his kids. I didn’t mind him leaving it gave me time to reflect and make decisions. 
 

I’m not sure he has a clear direction of where he is wanting to go. He is not in IC. And I know he has good intentions but is not following through. He wants me to tell him how to fix it and what he can do to fix it. Personally I have no clue what he could do that would restore any trust or respect  

me moving out of the room and the fact that I do not want him touching me are the only consequences he has faced. I know not a lot in some peoples book but I am a passive person so these are big steps for me at least. 
 

[EPC82]

Op,

You sound so broken down by this. The fact that you hardly care whats on his iPad, and that keeping tabs seems like too much work. I can hear the exhaustion in every word you write. My heart breaks for you. They say that when you have lost the drive to fight thats how you know its over. Perhaps you only need time to heal and to find the strength to fight once more, but it sounds to me like you are done. 

This sounds just like the end of my marriage. So dejecting and sadly finished. 

Apologies if I am entirely wrong. 

[Milly May June]

Op, i believe you know this deep inside that his halfhearted efforts are just not enough and you are dissapointed that he is not fighting for you harder. Mentally you are exhausted and just need rest and time to think. 

This is what i find unacceptable:

- waiting for you to tell him what to do

- not acknowledging his affairs

- blameshifting

- no transperancy 

- no AA (alkoholism is classified as a desease in my country. Its an addiction and one that is very hard to break on your own. Given his slipping up i dont think he will pull this one off without help) 

- no IC for himself

OP, get comfy in the separate bedroom and make some plans to better understand your situation in case you decide to D. That will at least give you some peace of mind. 

Hugs! 

[major_merrick]

Your husband is not the original problem!

You blame him for cheating on you, but in your first post you admit to cheating on him 16 years ago.  He let it go, but it sounds like he pretty much detached from the marriage.  He used absence and cheating to cover up his pain, and in doing so he became callous toward you.  Yeah, he's got problems.  What you did doesn't justify what he did....but it did lead to it. 

You and your husband need to apologize to EACH OTHER.  Simultaneously.  You say you still love him and you want to be friends.  You may have to take some drastic steps together to retain that friendship and put some distance between your life and all those years of pain.  He's leaving flowers for you because he wants to keep that door open.  You're staying in the house because part of you wants to keep that door open too. 

You both need to be in individual counseling and together in marriage counseling.  He's willing...he should have been willing earlier, but don't let his timing cause you to reject it.  Men are often "late" when it comes to seeking help and dealing with emotional problems.  Better late than never!  You have to understand each other's pain.  The pain you feel with his affairs now is the same pain he felt years ago.  And I guarantee that the way he's acting is evidence that his pain has never gone away.  You hurt each other...and you're likely the only ones who can heal each other.  Divorce will just mask it, you'll go your separate ways and you won't have gained anything. 

 

[merrmeade]

I don’t think that OP has given ANY indication that WH was 

On 10/28/2020 at 4:58 PM, major_merrick said:

Your husband is not the original problem!

You blame him for cheating on you, but in your first post you admit to cheating on him 16 years ago.  He let it go, but it sounds like he pretty much detached from the marriage.  He used absence and cheating to cover up his pain, and in doing so he became callous toward you.  Yeah, he's got problems.  What you did doesn't justify what he did....but it did lead to it. 

....

You both need to be in individual counseling and together in marriage counseling.  He's willing...he should have been willing earlier, but don't let his timing cause you to reject it.  Men are often "late" when it comes to seeking help and dealing with emotional problems.  Better late than never!  You have to understand each other's pain.  The pain you feel with his affairs now is the same pain he felt years ago.  And I guarantee that the way he's acting is evidence that his pain has never gone away.  You hurt each other...and you're likely the only ones who can heal each other.  Divorce will just mask it, you'll go your separate ways and you won't have gained anything. 

QT, you didn’t say much about your husband’s reaction to your affair 16 years ago except that you took steps to prove yourself faithful and ended up feeling isolated. I took this to mean that you feel you’ve paid your dues so to speak. You did not indicate much about this timeline such as how and how much it affected him and for how long. In fact the only you said that it came up was in his attempt to excuse his own behavior by your affair 16 years ago. My impression was that his multiple affairs since yours were not a reaction to yours at all but something he wanted to do and did. If I’m wrong, perhaps you can clarify.

[merrmeade]

You’re getting really good advice, QT. I would urge you not to go half-measures. For example, he promised to do certain reading, and he lied and said he was (you saw the bookmarks). He was supposed to hand over his phone and iPad but hasn’t. As long as he isn’t forced to face the full measure of his actions, he will never allow himself to see, feel and own the extent of what he has done. Until then, he won’t feel the need to demonstrate his remorse, if any, by giving you his devices or trying to learn about his behavior by reading.

He needs to recognize the damage and feel the shame and horror of being the cause of it. He needs to acknowledge his thinking that made it possible. What reason does he give? Do you buy it? Or was it because he is selfish, exploits people and puts all his energy into making excuses for his actions? 

It seems he compartmentalizes his thinking and chooses actions based on what brings him the least inconvenience and pain. If there’s anything that stands out, it is that. He does what he wants in a way that minimizes conflict and disagreeable tension. 

if he isn’t wasting time reading the books, what is he doing instead?

He doesn’t seem very worried about losing you because of his actions.

Edited November 1, 2020 by merrmeade
clariy

[Fletch Lives]

There is a lot going on here. I'd recommend counseling to address all the issues.

[QTpie123]

12 hours ago, merrmeade said:

I don’t think that OP has given ANY indication that WH was 

QT, you didn’t say much about your husband’s reaction to your affair 16 years ago except that you took steps to prove yourself faithful and ended up feeling isolated. I took this to mean that you feel you’ve paid your dues so to speak. You did not indicate much about this timeline such as how and how much it affected him and for how long. In fact the only you said that it came up was in his attempt to excuse his own behavior by your affair 16 years ago. My impression was that his multiple affairs since yours were not a reaction to yours at all but something he wanted to do and did. If I’m wrong, perhaps you can clarify.

I have never claimed to be innocent in any of this. 
 

He was devastated as expected. As I stated earlier I did everything I could to gain his trust back. If he didn’t like my friends they were gone. He made comments about me talking to my family a lot I shortened those conversations. He wanted to go out on the weekends to hang with his buddies I stayed home and kept the kids. And anytime we had a fight he would throw my A in my face. It was several years before he stopped throwing it in my face every time we fought. And while he was doing all these thing and I was repenting for my A he was in a PA that I would not find out about until several years later. When I found out I forgave him for this one. 
 

the ones that are affecting our marriage now have happened since i found out about that one. 

IMO the fact that the most recent A happened more recently they are not directly related back to my A. I believe he wanted to do. 

12 hours ago, merrmeade said:

You’re getting really good advice, QT. I would urge you not to go half-measures. For example, he promised to do certain reading, and he lied and said he was (you saw the bookmarks). He was supposed to hand over his phone and iPad but hasn’t. As long as he isn’t forced to face the full measure of his actions, he will never allow himself to see, feel and own the extent of what he has done. Until then, he won’t feel the need to demonstrate his remorse, if any, by giving you his devices or trying to learn about his behavior by reading.

He needs to recognize the damage and feel the shame and horror of being the cause of it. He needs to acknowledge his thinking that made it possible. What reason does he give? Do you buy it? Or was it because he is selfish, exploits people and puts all his energy into making excuses for his actions? 

It seems he compartmentalizes his thinking and chooses actions based on what brings him the least inconvenience and pain. If there’s anything that stands out, it is that. He does what he wants in a way that minimizes conflict and disagreeable tension. 

if he isn’t wasting time reading the books, what is he doing instead?

He doesn’t seem very worried about losing you because of his actions.

He says he doesn’t want to lose me. And I believe that he doesn’t. But as you stated he is not following through with his attempts and this speaks loudly. 

5 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

There is a lot going on here. I'd recommend counseling to address all the issues.

We just recently lost our counseling services. I lost my IC and we lost our MC. I’m afraid I won’t be able to afford both IC and MC so I’m sure we will only be doing MC once husband follows through to find one. I found the first one. And he has been working on the new one. 

[elaine567]

16 minutes ago, QTpie123 said:

He says he doesn’t want to lose me.

Of course he doesn't want to lose you.
He has emotionally blackmailed you  for years, anything he didn't like he threw the affair in your face and you were so keen to please him to compesate for the "terrible wrong" you did...
He took advantage of the situation to get what he wanted and had the nerve to then have affairs of his own. 
Whilst you were being the oh so sorry and dutiful wife.. he did as he pleased.
He has made an utter fool out of you.

[QTpie123]

Update:

well we started back at MC. H keeps saying he will do anything to save our marriage, anything.  

After the  1st session he got a bottle of whisky and drank all weekend. Tried to hide it from me. I found a case of beer while looking for the whisky so he had 2 weeks of drinking. I feel I was blamed because I kept telling him that I didn’t think MC would work so he lost all hope and decided to drink. He claims he still has control over his drinking and it was one weekend of excess. Left that MC session with him saying I’ll do anything to fix this. 2 days later he’s balking at my requests for an at home breathalyzer and joining AA or finding a sponsor through the church telling me he needs me to prove I’m invested first. He has started using the breathalyzer now before driving the kids. This was my main concern him driving while impaired. 
 

next session he starts off asking me about how I want to handle the divorce. Is it going to amicable? How will we split the kids? The property?  MC called him out on how he claims he wants to fix things and now he’s once again breaking that promise. H said he had time to think and he believes realistically we will end up D. When H continued his speech he finished with if leaving me makes you happy that’s what I want. I’m tired of seeing you upset and sad. I told H the week before our first MC session while he was still setting up the appointment he listed our boat for sale. Called me his soon to be ex and was telling people how he was going to have to sell a lot of his stuff to pay me to go away. He denied it all. I have screenshots of it all. Then we are told by MC to read 5 languages of love a chapter at a time and talk to each other about it after each chapter and plan a date night.  I left that sessions very confused. 
 

so here is where I’m at. He’s shown me repeated untrustworthy behavior I less than a months time. My trust for him each time has gotten less and less. And I must admit I didn’t think I could respect him less than I did, but I do. 
 

these are just the major highlights there have been a few smaller incidents like him searching my bedroom for the money he thinks I’m hoarding to leave him with. He searched my car as well. 
 

he asked me to give him 6 months to a year to prove that he could fix things  but I think I’m done  I don’t know what else he can do to fix anything?!

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by QTpie123

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, QTpie123 said:

After the  1st session he got a bottle of whisky and drank all weekend. Tried to hide it from me. I found a case of beer while looking for the whisky so he had 2 weeks of drinking. I feel I was blamed because I kept telling him that I didn’t think MC would work so he lost all hope and decided to drink. He claims he still has control over his drinking and it was one weekend of excess. Left that MC session with him saying I’ll do anything to fix this. 2 days later he’s balking at my requests for an at home breathalyzer and joining AA or finding a sponsor through the church telling me he needs me to prove I’m invested first.

This MAY be "drowning his sorrows" but I think it's as likely to be an effort to cause problems for himself IN HOPES that it will trigger a "caretaker"/concern response from you. This would be one way to start reeling you back in. Don't be surprised if his issues escalate in one way or another. He "needs" you to get through whatever it is. Some folks even threaten suicide. (Obviously IF that happens it needs to be taken seriously, but that could and probably should be done by calling appropriate authorities, rather than your layman's attempt at intervention.)

Anyhow, I always be wrong about the above, I think it's never completely clear in situations like this how genuine the issues really are vs being attempts at manipulation.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, QTpie123 said:

 Then we are told by MC to read 5 languages of love a chapter at a time and talk to each other about it after each chapter and plan a date night.  I left that sessions very confused.

How experienced is your therapist? There's nothing wrong with shopping around if you don't think they're "getting it".

Your husband may be hedging his bets - trying to get you back but also planning for divorce since the writing appears to be on the wall.

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, QTpie123 said:

he got a bottle of whisky and drank all weekend. Tried to hide it from me.

He has started using the now before driving the kids. This was my main concern him driving while impaired. 

Does the therapist know he's a problem drinker? You can get info/support for people involved with problem drinkers at Al-Anon: 

https://al-anon.org/newcomers/self-quiz/adult-quiz/

Never let him drive your kids anywhere..  Why is there a breathalyzer on the car? Is there  history of impaired driving?  Marriage therapy and patience won't fix alcoholism. An alcoholic's primary relationship is with alcohol. You are just a prop, a pawn a means to an end.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Wiseman2

[QTpie123]

38 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Does the therapist know he's a problem drinker? You can get info/support for people involved with problem drinkers at Al-Anon: 

https://al-anon.org/newcomers/self-quiz/adult-quiz/

Never let him drive your kids anywhere..  Why is there a breathalyzer on the car? Is there  history of impaired driving?  Marriage therapy and patience won't fix alcoholism. An alcoholic's primary relationship is with alcohol. You are just a prop, a pawn a means to an end.

@Marc Clemson this therapist is good. I am comfortable with him and approve of what he is doing.  I have a feeling he is just doing what MC do and trying to save the marriage. 
 

yes the therapist is aware he has an issue with alcohol. No he has never had a DUI OR DWI. I was speaking of an at home breathalyzer you buy for home use. We found one on Amazon. He can drive kids if he takes the breathalyzer and it shows he hasn’t been drinking. 

[Milly May June]

You dont need MC at this point. Your H needs help to deal with his addiction. If there is any hope to save the marriage he needs to help himself first. 

Maybe a separation would be a good thing for you to clear your head and him to truly get a kick in the but to change. 

[Wiseman2]

13 hours ago, QTpie123 said:

 an at home breathalyzer you buy for home use. 

Hopefully you realize this is not a normal every day household item like a travel mug.

You seem to seriously minimize the impact of the problem drinking. Sadly you are still in the bargaining stage of the alcoholism and it's negative impact on your kids and yourself.

Do you work? are you financially dependent? Do you drive/have your own car? Is divorcing frowned upon in your culture/ religion, even in the face of alcoholism?

It's courious why you are staying in this.

Do you really think he can't stop off with the kids in the car and buy/drink alcohol?

Why are you endangering your kids safety and mental health so he can drink?

Edited November 29, 2020 by Wiseman2

[schlumpy]

Have you at least looked into Al-Anon? They can guide you. 

You will of course have to take their advice to get any positive results.

[QTpie123]

11 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Hopefully you realize this is not a normal every day household item like a travel mug.

You seem to seriously minimize the impact of the problem drinking. Sadly you are still in the bargaining stage of the alcoholism and it's negative impact on your kids and yourself.

Do you work? are you financially dependent? Do you drive/have your own car? Is divorcing frowned upon in your culture/ religion, even in the face of alcoholism?

It's courious why you are staying in this.

Do you really think he can't stop off with the kids in the car and buy/drink alcohol?

Why are you endangering your kids safety and mental health so he can drink?

I can be financially independent. I have a full time job. I have my own car. 
 

I have stayed this far because I am scared of making the wrong choice. I’m scared that I will regret either choice available to me. I am scared about splitting up a family unit. I’m terrified of this HUGE decision that I am faced I am not sure if you have ever had to face this issue or not and until you do you just don’t understand the turmoil you go through  and if you have please take a step back from judging me and my actions/inactions and remember how you felt and what you went through  

i realize he can stop off to buy alcohol. But he loves his kids more and realized his drinking could affect custody in the courts. He has mot put our children at risk that I am aware of, that would be one thing I could not overlook. No one will endanger my children. I understand that you are not living in my house and therefore cannot have a clear picture of what is happening even with my attempts at explanations through typing it out. But believe me if My children or I were in danger I would be gone. 

10 hours ago, schlumpy said:

Have you at least looked into Al-Anon? They can guide you. 

You will of course have to take their advice to get any positive results.

I have and I plan to attend my first meeting this next week. I have been on that message board for several months reading. I have also read a couple of books about alcoholism over the past few months.