Women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the gatekeepers of commitment?

[CalipsoRose]

5 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Maybe the real problem is the guys who are perpetually on OLD old are simply not that appealing and/or are dysfunctional in some way once you get to know them?

Yes. They are definitely dysfunctional in some way once I get to know them. 

[mark clemson]

17 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

This is true. I want a man who is wanted by other women since that shows he is a high value mate, but this gets tricky when he doesnt STOP dealing with the other women once he decides to stick with you. There IS an epidemic of this going on today, many of my female friends realize it too.

Yeah, you'll have to find that subset of "attractive men" who are also "one-woman" men. I suspect they are not unicorns, but it's also not so easy because once they find a woman they really like they are then out of the dating pool. So a smaller # AND each one is probably available for less duration than people who are less attractive and less "commitment-prone".

Not such as easy road, which is presumably why your friends are complaining about it too.

"Women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the gatekeepers of commitment"  -  sounds like perhaps there's truth to this (although of course the roles can sometimes be reversed as well).

Edited October 24, 2020 by mark clemson

[Miss Spider]

If a guy does not stop dealing with other women after he decides to deal with me he is ipso facto not “high value” to me . Next 

I wonder if all of these guys that you are talking about are from online dating. I don’t have that much experience with it, save a few dates and found 2 bfs from it. I can imagine the candy store mentality is a little bit more prevalent on there. It is designed for people shopping.  Your  only connection is both really want to meet a romantic/sexual partner and liking each other’s ‘ads’. In my experience, the men have not been the cream of the crop. That Includes my two boyfriends, I am sorry to say. There is usually a fatal flaw or something wrong with each of these guys.  I struggle to understand why a high quality person with a healthy social life and would be on there, and most(all) of the ones who meet that criteria I’ve met have not been. and the bfs/guys I’ve met offline just living my life have been way more appealing to me. and yes I get what I’m saying about myself having been on here. I am no exception.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[CalipsoRose]

Well I am 28 and literally all of my friends use online dating so it is such a norm for me. Even if I met a guy at the store, there is an 85% chance he is also on a dating site. I think it is just the way my generation dates. 

But to your first point, about him still dealing with other women, I meant once he has decided to BE with me as in agreed to only see me, he is still texting other women romantically or still secretly shopping on the sites. This has been my personal experience, at least. Which is cheating. Thus, making him a less than valuable mate. 

[mark clemson]

5 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

I wonder if all of these guys that you are talking about are from online dating. I don’t have that much experience with it, save a few dates and found 2 bfs from it.

Okay, but you (C&D/SSLL) are certainly within that top 1/3 of women to many men. Not only are you getting BF's but they are talking marriage and babies and when you're done they are chasing you to stay (per your other thread).

I'm quite sure not every woman gets that - no doubt many get "well, that was great, lots of fun, thanks + have a nice life, I'm on to the next".

Possibly you were just very lucky and got 2 guys who were interested in some level of commitment, but that's not likely IMO. It's more likely they were thinking they'd hit the jackpot and wanted to keep you (at least that 2nd guy sure seemed to).

[poppyfields]

42 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

This is true. I want a man who is wanted by other women since that shows he is a high value mate....

I respect what you want but imo your judging a man's value on the wrong thing.

Guy could be a bonafide POS, a player (for lack of a better word) and still be wanted by other women.  Lots of women!  

And how do you even know upon meeting and feeling an attraction if he IS wanted by other women?

Do women openly chase him while in your presence?  Does he encourage this?  Does he tell you about it?  

If so, please, stay away from men like this!  

This goes back to the men you choose to date.  

It should not matter one iota how many "other" women want him, what matters is your mutual connection and chemistry, how well you get on together.

When I began dating my boyfriend, I couldn't give a rat's rear end how many other women wanted him.  I didn't even know nor want to know, and I mean that sincerely.

Why should it matter?  Being wanted by other women doesn't indicate high value, not even sure where that mindset comes from.

What mattered to me, how I valued my boyfriend was by our connection, our enegy/chemistry, and whether he displayed honesty and integrity.

Choose wisely from the get-go and avoid pain and heart break later.  

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by poppyfields

[elaine567]

23 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

a high quality person with a healthy social life

Maybe that is where CalipsoRose is going wrong, maybe she needs to forget about the "healthy social life" criteria and look for a more home loving kind of a guy.
The guys she dates are too sociable... with other women...

Edited October 24, 2020 by elaine567
spelling

[Woggle]

Plenty of awful people do well with the opposite sex so that is not a good measure.

[CaliforniaGirl]

11 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

No one "picks" cheaters. You just have poor dating  strategies. You are on hookup apps, jump in way too quickly, then let yourself be set up for disappointment.

I disagree and not as a finger-pointer. We often do subconsciously pick various traits. It may be something we think we deserve...if it is something negative it can be to keep a distance there, or to try to work out old tapes playing in our heads...there is a psychology to this.

Anyone can fall prey to a predator through no fault of his or her own; that's why they are able to do it - they're good at it. But most relationships, for the better part of a decade? It is time to look inward.

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 hours ago, CalipsoRose said:

The thing is, throughout my 20s I have rarely withheld sex. I have had sex on the first date before and on the 6th date, it has had a different timeline with each guy but I cant remember many instances where I have waited longer than a month, it almost always happened before that. So thats why I was basically asking initially if I should be waiting longer just to protect my heart, not as manipulation, so that i can find a guy who actually wants what I want. 

But regardless of how soon I had sex, I found out the guy was still seeing other women, and when I bring up the "exlusivity" talk or "relationship" talk, I am labeled desperate or thats when you start noticing their behavior towards you change (less interested) or they ghost or whatever other weird inconsistent behavior they do. Based on what I have read here by some guys, apparently they do this because they think I am being manipulative, which is just plain sad because its not true. 

Anyway. Right now I have been single for 2 months, not dating anyone. I am working on myself and I suppose the only thing to do when I go back out on the dating scene is to just play it by ear and when the topic comes up, tell him what I am looking for. The right guy will be on the same page with me. The only issue with this is, guys in the past have said they want the same thing as me but its a lie and its difficult to decipher truth from lies when he's acting one way but doing another behind your back. 

Wouldn't the smart thing be to do something different from what you've been doing?

1. Not jump into sex with every guy of you aren't sure of the guy. You don't have to, you know. That doesn't mean waiting for months. It means some guys won't be guys guy want to habe sex with at all, or go forward with. So?

2. As right away of they're on the same page. Not desperately, just ask. If a guy thinks that's desperate then he is an ass. Walk.  

[CaliforniaGirl]

2 hours ago, CalipsoRose said:

This is true. I want a man who is wanted by other women since that shows he is a high value mate, but this gets tricky when he doesnt STOP dealing with the other women once he decides to stick with you. There IS an epidemic of this going on today, many of my female friends realize it too. It is just to easy to window shop today. So unless you are Wonder Woman and "tick ALL of the boxes, dont you dare have a flaw that another woman doesn't have" then yeah, most of those guys justify in their minds that they can keep getting validation from all angles. 

Okay...I know I'm the mean friend saying this but you need social proof to know a guy is worthwhile??? We only needed to ask our friends in middle school.

You need to work some things out. You need to develop a sense of self. If you need what others want then you don't know what you want.

Please please stop dating for now...

[CaliforniaGirl]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Okay, but you (C&D/SSLL) are certainly within that top 1/3 of women to many men. Not only are you getting BF's but they are talking marriage and babies and when you're done they are chasing you to stay (per your other thread).

I'm quite sure not every woman gets that - no doubt many get "well, that was great, lots of fun, thanks + have a nice life, I'm on to the next".

Possibly you were just very lucky and got 2 guys who were interested in some level of commitment, but that's not likely IMO. It's more likely they were thinking they'd hit the jackpot and wanted to keep you (at least that 2nd guy sure seemed to).

But is this really true considering the fact that so many people do get married? Plus the amount that are in committed relationships?

People make these statements without looking at what is actually happening all around them.

We're talking about pretty and handsome, young people.

Today - right now - more than half of U.S. adults are married *before* age 30.

[CalipsoRose]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Okay...I know I'm the mean friend saying this but you need social proof to know a guy is worthwhile??? We only needed to ask our friends in middle school.

You need to work some things out. You need to develop a sense of self. If you need what others want then you don't know what you want.

Please please stop dating for now...

I didnt say that, I was only responding to someone who said that if a man has multiple women interested in him, it means he is sought after in terms of being high value. I was just agreeing with that assumption, but I dont NEED to KNOW hes got other options, no, not at all. I would honestly prefer he didnt, since that is kind of where I keep getting hurt (his wandering eye). 

Well I am 28 so yes I have had failed relationships throughout my 20s but I really dont think its all my fault (as the common denominator) I truly believe the dating pool of men in their 20s isnt the best today. Most are immature still. Live and learn. Yes I am looking inward and no I am not dating right now.

[major_merrick]

@CalipsoRoseWhat would you say are the primary things you offer to a potential partner?  And what are the primary things you need from a partner?  I tend to view a relationship as a transaction, almost like a business deal.  If you're running into guys who are continuing to look around after supposedly committing to you, there's either a problem with the definition of commitment or a problem with the transaction itself. 

I don't view one dating method as inherently better or worse than another.  Many people are finding happy, lasting relationships online.  And it looks like you're meeting people that appear to be good online....things fall apart once you are dating in person.  Due to COVID and methods common to our generation, online dating is very popular and just about everybody is doing it.  I'd re-examine what platforms you're using so that you're more likely to find people with needs and values similar to your own. 

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

But is this really true considering the fact that so many people do get married? Plus the amount that are in committed relationships?

Sure, they were interested in being in a relationship and in one case possibly getting married and starting a relationship with her. That is nothing shocking. Her being attractive (and also smart) no doubt helped, but it certainly could happen without that IF you end up connecting with the right partner via whatever means (OLD, real life meetings, etc). Happened to me...

The problem (as I see it) is the commitment-minded people, once in relationships, tend to stay in until something happens to make them leave. Sometimes they never leave. Meanwhile others (both men and women) who prefer to "play the field" OR have difficulty starting or maintaining relationships may be perennially back out on OLD/in the dating pool.

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, CalipsoRose said:

Well I am 28 so yes I have had failed relationships throughout my 20s

Humans, even relationship-minded ones, tend to be serial monogamists, so you might reframe these "failed" relationships as "normal" relationships that ended. They didn't continue as long as you'd hoped, but you can't really know at the start what the likely shelf-life of a relationship/partner is going to be. There is a certain amount of luck involved, as well as the actual intentions of the partner, among other things...

[CollinW]

12 hours ago, CalipsoRose said:

This is true. I want a man who is wanted by other women since that shows he is a high value mate, but this gets tricky when he doesnt STOP dealing with the other women once he decides to stick with you. There IS an epidemic of this going on today, many of my female friends realize it too. It is just to easy to window shop today. So unless you are Wonder Woman and "tick ALL of the boxes, dont you dare have a flaw that another woman doesn't have" then yeah, most of those guys justify in their minds that they can keep getting validation from all angles. 

Thats the conundrum isn't it? A lot of women want the guy that every other woman wants but don't realize they're in competition with those women, and unfortunately don't measure up. 

[Wiseman2]

16 hours ago, CalipsoRose said:

Yes. They are definitely dysfunctional in some way once I get to know them. 

When you not only read and quote reddit red pill hate groups, but buy into it, your dating life will be a disaster and you will have this burned out meat market mentally.

When you decide to go off reddit hate groups and get off hookup apps, perhaps you will start talking to quality men.

[LeoLady888]

Beach nails it here:

Quote

 

Dating today is a dumpster fire.  

It's jammed up with people who have no business dating anybody.  People with issues that should be working on those issues on their own first, but instead don't and cope poorly, by using others for emotional or physically intimacy.   They don't care who they hurt as long as they get theirs, and there are so many people like that that people such as yourself, have to date and get your heartbroken maybe 50 times just to find someone who's worth the energy.  By then, you're so drained and tired and pissed off, you probably wouldn't even see him coming if he waved at you.

 

IMO OLD is a crock - for all the reasons mentioned above.

OP you need to slow down and make some ground rules about who you will and won't date - and you need to be brutal. 

That really nice, generous guy with two kids on drugs - nope, you don't need him.

Don't accept anyone with 'baggage'. (And by that I don't mean kids)

By the same token you need to have something to offer other than a negative quantity below your waist.

Are you self-sufficient financially and emotionally? Can you make good conversation? Are you the type of girl he'd like to take home to meet mother? Do you have boundaries and self-respect? Can you communicate effectively? Are you truthful and reliable? Can you rescue a spider from the bath without screaming the place down?

I could go one but I think you get the picture.

IMO meeting guys via friends or hobbies is the way to go. Then you get a chance to evaluate them before you get into dating.

Just my 6-penneth

 

 

[poppyfields]

OLD is not a "crock," just another means of being introduced.  

What many people fail to realize is that chances are, the same man (or woman) you meet IRL is most likely on some dating app/site as well.

People don't choose one or the other.

The difference is when you meet on-line, it becomes this "thing" where you're constantly checking their profile, are they still active, are they still talking and meeting others, etc causing all sorts of anxiety and insecurity, which does not typically happen when you meet IRL.

Perhaps the more accurate way to define today's culture would be to say "dating" (in general) is a "crock" no matter where you meet.

By crock I mean difficult.  

I went through a lot of BS before meeting my boyfriend (on line).   And I met those men IRL, although they were on dating apps as well. 

I won't go into all the BS I endured but it was pretty bad.  I was no angel myself, just trying to keep up.  Learning the "game."  

Remaining resilient, and detaching from the outcome is what got me through.  

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by poppyfields

[central]

When I was dating after leaving my ex, I was hoping to find another relationship - but a good one.  IMO, part of dating is sex, and the quality and compatibility of sex is a major factor in deciding long-term commitment.  Now, sex doesn't have to occur right away, but if it doesn't occur within a couple of months, I'm pretty sure we'd be sexually incompatible and have incompatible values.

As for finding a high value man that many other women find attractive, most of that value assignment appears to be related to appearance and an outgoing personality (and perhaps money), and little to do with substance, values, consistency, and faithfulness (boring stuff, but key to a stable relationship).  Eventually, many women settle for the good man - not the exciting man - and often don't treat their compromise man as if he's a high value choice.

[princessaurora]

I'm so glad I'm not living my single days in the current world. OLD seems so stressful. But alot of people I know do it and the success rate of finding someone decent or that wants a relationship is few and far between. I have a friend whose never been married, no kids, and very attractive. She has been doing the dating apps for over 20 years and has never found a man that wants to stay with her for more than a few weeks. We actually had a long discussion about this about  a month ago because she wants to find someone to settle down with. She generally picks guys in their late 30-s to early 40's. She is 45. One pattern she has never faltered from is having sex right away. 1st or 2nd date at the most. I advised her to maybe wait a bit longer and get to know the guy better since she's looking for a relationship, but her attitude is "we're full grown adults, that has nothing to do with it", but I disagree with that statement and with her track record, you think she'd want to consider holding off a bit and see if it makes any difference.

While I have known a few people who went on to have a LTR and/ or marry someone they had sex with right away, most of those potential relationships didn't work out. So I personally don't think it's a good idea to have sex on the first date unless y'all have been talking for awhile and do know each other a bit. ( I have one friend who met a guy online but they video chatted for like a month before they met, and they did have sex on the first date. Been together ever since  They moved in together two years ago  This is the exception, though) Otherwise, 9 times out of 10, it's going to be based on sex and nothing else which doesn't sound like what your goal is, especially in the OLD dating world which seems to mostly be about hooking up. 

When I was dating, I made it clear to a guy I wasn't sleeping with him if he was sleeping with others. I wasn't a serial dater. It wasn't my thing. I focused on one guy at a time and we never had sex till it felt right which was usually a few weeks to a month most of the time. I generally built up to that over a few dates  ( heavy making out, oral, then intercourse). That was just my pattern and it worked for me. He knew I desired him but I wasn't going to have sex with him when I barely knew him. I still let him know we  were on that path though and as long as you're doing that , it should be enough for any decent guy who sees a potential future with you to be willing to wait a bit.  So my opinion is you should wait till you're ready and you want to do it, but not any longer because you think it might make you seem like a better catch. Guys are wired to want sex all the time and if you wait too long, even the best ones will most likely lose interest because they'll start to think you don't really want them.  You just have to figure out where to strike that right time without feeling like you did it too soon. Maybe you could ease into it like I used to do and probably still would if I was in my 20's right now.  But keep in mind the majority of guys on OLD are just looking to get laid. 

Once all this covid stuff is over, you should maybe try to meet people in the real world instead of online. Join a social group you share common interests with, volunteer for an organization, spend time at the library or doing outside recreation. This is a much more natural setting where you could potentially meet someone without the stress of wondering what type of person they really are when they step away from the computer screen. If you don't find a man that tickles your fancy, no biggie. You've still made  new friends that might just introduce you to your next potential boyfriend. I know I haven't dated in over 20 years, but I still believe there are decent men out there. You're just not likely to find them on OLD especially when there's so few you're attracted to. And that's totally fine. I never dated guys I wasn't attracted to either. Physical attraction is usually the thing that gravitates you to someone in the first place. Its totally natural to need that to make a connection. What guy would want to date a woman who doesn't find him desirable? Unless he's desperate, I can't imagine too many. 

[Weezy1973]

On 10/24/2020 at 6:54 AM, Ruby Slippers said:

We're in agreement here. At this point in time I feel happy that I don't have the "putting up with" burden. 

Yup and also remember they’ll be put up with some less than ideal things about you too! Always goes both ways. We want people to love and accept us flaws and all and that only works if we’re willing to accept them flaws on all. Nobody was put on the planet to make us happy.

[Weezy1973]

22 hours ago, CalipsoRose said:

I truly believe the dating pool of men in their 20s isnt the best today. Most are immature still. Live and learn. Yes I am looking inward and no I am not dating right now.

There is some truth to this. The average age for getting married is getting later and later and the 20s are now considered and “extended adolescence”. For women that want children that can become a problem if they wait too far into their 30s. 
 

The other issue is what has been termed “aspirational dating” which is the phenomenon of people being the most attracted to people who are somewhat more attractive than themselves. For men, that just means you don’t get many swipes / responses from people you’re most attracted to. For women, it can mean that some of these men will not commit, but will have casual sex with you. OP, if you’re as picky as you say you are l, this could be happening to you.

[CalipsoRose]

21 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

There is some truth to this. The average age for getting married is getting later and later and the 20s are now considered and “extended adolescence”. For women that want children that can become a problem if they wait too far into their 30s. 
 

The other issue is what has been termed “aspirational dating” which is the phenomenon of people being the most attracted to people who are somewhat more attractive than themselves. For men, that just means you don’t get many swipes / responses from people you’re most attracted to. For women, it can mean that some of these men will not commit, but will have casual sex with you. OP, if you’re as picky as you say you are l, this could be happening to you.

I agree with you. However I consider myself to be very attractive as well (not to sound egotistical - I am in shape, good face, self employed, nice, respectful, so I consider myself to be a good catch and I still get treated like this by guys) so I am not dating men who are more attractive than me, I am dating men who are considered on my level in terms of looks. They still dont commit to me most of the time, and for men who are attractive they dont just date women like me, they date women who can be considered average looking if she has an above average personality or bigger "assets" if you catch my drift. So they seem to have a bigger pool regardless.

It just feels impossible for me to find a good guy that wants to commit today. Its like every date you go on, you find yourself in a Miss Universe Pageant competing against 10 other girls and you arent even sure if the prize is worth it because hes testing you probably more than you're testing him. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by CalipsoRose