Women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the gatekeepers of commitment?

[MeadowFlower]

6 minutes ago, GorillaTheater said:

I dunno, man. It's a good way to not catch sexual incompatibilities until after the nuptials. 

Oh wait.. So a guy would drop everything with the woman he supposedly loves, just because the sex isn't perfectly compatible. How lame, and that is NOT love. 

 

Furthermore, you can have some understanding of sexual compatibility, without actually having sex.

[schlumpy]

Anticipation can be pleasant

 

[GorillaTheater]

Just now, MeadowFlower said:

Oh wait.. So a guy would drop everything with the woman he supposedly loves, just because the sex isn't perfectly compatible. How lame, and that is NOT love. 

 

Furthermore, you can have some understanding of sexual compatibility, without actually having sex.

There's quite a bit of territory between "perfectly compatible" and "he/she is into dwarf porn and chains and hooks hanging from the ceiling". It seems wise to me to make sure that both people are at least more-or-less on the same page when it comes to sex.Which despite your assertions can't really happen until sex is part of the program.

 

[mark clemson]

22 minutes ago, Interstellar said:

Well, I look at it this way too...

19 minutes ago, GorillaTheater said:

It's a good way to not catch sexual incompatibilities until after the nuptials. I'm not sure that would do much for the divorce rate, either.

 

Well, everything slowly changes over time, including people, and staying together LT is ultimately a choice (that BOTH partners continue to make).

So, to my mind the concept of "solid foundations" that many seem to believe in isn't accurate. The key to a lasting marriage is ongoing commitment to staying together, willingness to accept change and navigate life's inevitable ups and downs, and to a certain extent, luck (for example, that your partner doesn't change in ways that you can't accept or do things that you can't accept, that they don't lose their feeling of commitment to you, etc., etc.)

It's wishful thinking to believe we can control where we will be in 10 years. That goes for marriage too. Plenty of people who tried everything to select that "perfect" partner (and really feel they are perfect) are absolutely relieved to be divorcing 12 years later, and plenty of "what are they doing together" couples last. There's nothing inherently wrong with trying to pick well of course, but really any thinking that success is guaranteed by any mechanism is just conning yourself.

So, might as well screw around first (unless of course you actually don't want to). You'll at least have had more fun (if you were careful) on the way to whatever the future holds.

Edited October 23, 2020 by mark clemson

[Beachead]

@CalipsoRose

2 hours ago, CalipsoRose said:

I think it is really strange to assume that because a woman wants a relationship with you, that this is somehow not genuine. What if she really likes you and doesnt want to date anyone else and she realizes this sooner rather than later? What if she isnt just looking for a commitment from anyone, but from YOU specifically. What if she isnt desperate for a relationship, but she is ready for one and has fallen for you and wants to express that? 

This recently happened to me. I was single for an entire year, but knew I was ready for a relationship. Then I met a guy and I instantly felt that connection and fell for him pretty fast and he fell for me fast too. He was the first one to start saying "Wow you are so special and I could see myself long term with you. I am really falling in love with you." So we agreed to be GF and BF. Then he got cold feet and started saying it was MY idea and forced him into this relationship and that he isnt ready all the sudden and had already started seeing other "female friends" from tinder. Obviously I broke up with him, but this really broke my heart recently and confused the hell out of me. 

He made it sound like I was just desperate for a relationship when I actually really just wanted to be with HIM not just ANYONE. I havent even been with another guy since the break up so that should prove that I'm not just desperate for any man to commit to me. So when a woman says she wants a relationship with you, for you to assume she is not being genuine and even dishonest for wanting a commitment with you is such backwards thinking to me. It could be that she genuinely has real feelings for you. Sad that some guys dont seem to understand this and just run away from it like shes crazy for wanting to be with him.

You are understood CalipsoRose. 

Dating today is a dumpster fire.  

It's jammed up with people who have no business dating anybody.  People with issues that should be working on those issues on their own first, but instead don't and cope poorly, by using others for emotional or physically intimacy.   They don't care who they hurt as long as they get theirs, and there are so many people like that that people such as yourself, have to date and get your heartbroken maybe 50 times just to find someone who's worth the energy.  By then, you're so drained and tired and pissed off, you probably wouldn't even see him coming if he waved at you.

 It's not easy to put give someone a chance.  You're putting your heart out there to get burned.  And as much as anyone on this thread wants to sit there and presume they got it all figured out, they don't.  The first order of business in having a meaningful relationship with anyone (Including friendships) is you have to open up. Trust takes time to build.  Loyalty takes time to build.  Respect takes time to build.  Relationships take time to build.  You have to go through life together and witness eachother in the process..especially when both of you are at your weakness and most undesirable.  Through that grind, is where the respect and trust are earned.  Seems like today, everybody wants instant gratification and one-way devotion, without putting in that work and time in...and then they sit there wondering why all their relationships fail.

It's not you.  It's the culture.

Take my advice and quit OLD, unless you're willing to endure more of this for the hope of that one good guy that does show up.  Instead, cultivate relationships the "old fashion way."  It doesn't guarantee you anything but you will atleast be interacting with a human being, in which you can actually utilize all your senses to communicate.  And don't put out early unless you feel like it.  That's your right.  Don't let anyone pressure you into anything, even if you feel lonely or want a relationship. Depending on who you're dealing with, sex may/may not complicate things. 

Some men want want early sex because their sex-driven.  Some want that early sex because there are individuals out there who poorly represent your gender,  that knowingly exploit a man's wallet for weeks, months etc.  and said man ends up with nothing to show for it except a foot in his behind.  Over time, sex in their eyes as a result of this, becomes compensation and validation.  Some men want sex because they think it's what they're supposed to have..perhaps it's bragging rights as well.  

Overall, I think with the way people are today and all the unaccountable variables out there, being cautious and taking it slow will help you screen out who's for you and who's not.  Believe it or not, there are men out there that don't demand "Sex or else." 

If a man leaves you because of it, you are better off without him.  Believe that. 

- Beach

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Beachead

[Miss Spider]

Great post, beach. I felt that

I hope you open your heart again and you find a great person, Calypso. It might take some time. And it might be off the apps

Edited October 23, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[mark clemson]

I like your post a lot too Beach. I would point out that the converse of the below (so, "better off" from the man's perspective) may sometimes be true as well. The two people are interested in different things and/or have different approaches to starting/maintaining a relationship.

16 minutes ago, Beachead said:

 being cautious and taking it slow will help you screen out who's for you and who's not.  Believe it or not, there are men out there that don't demand "Sex or else."  If a man leaves you because of it, you are better off without him.  Believe that.

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by mark clemson

[poppyfields]

28 minutes ago, Beachead said:

The first order of business in having a meaningful relationship with anyone (Including friendships) is you have to open up. Trust takes time to build.  Loyalty takes time to build.  Respect takes time to build.  Relationships take time to build.  You have to go through life together and witness eachother in the process..especially when both of you are at your weakness and most undesirable. 

Through that grind, is where the respect and trust are earned.  Seems like today, everybody wants instant gratification and one-way devotion, without putting in that work and time in...and then they sit there wondering why all their relationships fail.

Amen to that, esp the bolded but ALL of it really.  

Edited October 23, 2020 by poppyfields

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, Interstellar said:

This. No money, no honey.

That's not what I'm saying. What I mean is: people here who say there's some sort of official designation of this "top 20%" or "alpha whatever" or some sort of set of manosphere rules have their own idea of whatever that is. Yet at the same time it's, "all women feel X way" or "all 'chads' are this  or that..." 

How is that possible if every definition is different?

That's why those silly rules just aren't reality...and why none of that stuff really ever makes sense...IMO.

It's just stuff people use to either try to have a feeling of control over their situation, or to try to feel better about having been overlooked. But it's not real life. It's not real relationships. And it never seems to make anybody feel any better...it only seems to create more resentment than was already there.

Just toss out this silliness...it's not real life and if there are so many exceptions to these rules then they're not really rules...just stuff from certain factions on the internet...

[ZA Dater]

At  the core everyone wants the same basic thing: Companionship and someone to make them feel special and loved. Some ladies love the attention of a chad and some shy guys love a hello from a really pretty lady. Neither is wrong but at the core they are both fundamentally the same. Its how people arrive at the some thing which differs, the road they follow and yes not everyone is lucky enough to arrive at that destination.

Edited October 24, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[CaliforniaGirl]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You say everyone wants something different but at the core everyone wants the same basic thing: Companionship and someone to make them feel special and loved. Some ladies love the attention of a chad and some shy guys love a hello from a really pretty lady. Neither is wrong but at the core they are both fundamentally the same. Its how people arrive at the some thing which differs, the road they follow and yes not everyone is lucky enough to arrive at that destination.

Yes. We all want love and attention.

But that is not what the chad-proponents here are saying (god am I tired of that word).

They are saying women want the same GUY, or that affection from the same small 20% (or smaller than that) pool of guys.

Not love and attention from their own specific choice, from the same GUY as nearly all the other women. The "top 20%" of guys, not love and affection from a huge selection of different men, that one man that's just right for them, given the fact that (no...seriously) all women are different.

Yeah, never mind.  This doesn't seem to be about the OP any more. Was it ever? TBH, I think "chads" or other "I learned it on the internet" proponents (this is just my own opinion) tend to think the shallow guys are the ones who got the woman they wanted, and the shallow woman is the woman they wanted. Because the descriptions are (I'm sorry) always so bitter and seem to change from poster to poster to poster (18-year-old? "Established" 30-year-old with the car? Totally rich duded who goes to Paris all the time? Quietly rich, but hot? Just hot, no money but charisma? Just a vacant hot "chad"?)....and yet they're couched as "everybody" or "nearly everybody"...even though they differ from describer to describer.

Nobody seems to remember that this is about the OP....

A woman who described being a 28-year-old, dating men who must be in their 30s (she said she dates men about 5 years older than she), dates - not sleeps with once, generally, and then gets dumped); different types of relationships, but she feels used even if they were longer-term relationships (perspective); who knows the problem may stem from her and her choices; and who NEVER described some sort of "top tier" jet-setter with amazing looks, women crawling all over him everywhere they went or anything like that...

This post was about her situation...not everyone's personal gripe...remember, everybody?

About her needing help. With her approach, her methods (OLD probably not being a great choice) and so on.

Edited October 23, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CalipsoRose]

Thank you Beach, your post calmed me.

I actually stay away from Chads. I see them a mile away and that Jock mentality isnt even attractive to me. If a guy is acting like Gaston from Beauty and the Beast it is actually a firm NOPE for me. You can usually spot those guys by their gym mirror flexing pics or their crossed arms pose standing in front of their lifted truck. No thanks. I dont take kindly to yer...kind. LOL 

I am very picky in terms of mate selection and I tend to go for the "Undercover Chads". In other words, they look unassuming from the outside but when you get to know them better you realize they are running game on you like there's no tomorrow. Usually they are friends with 10+ real Chads and they all get together to scheme and plot on how to seem like a nice guy but they're just as sneaky as the rest of them. 

I am too genuine for this world. LOL no but in all seriousness, the last guy I broke up with who wanted to date others ended up with a female version Chad, what do you call them? Beckys? Maybe they will play each other. Like some B-movie Hunger Games.

[CaliforniaGirl]

2 hours ago, MeadowFlower said:

Oh wait.. So a guy would drop everything with the woman he supposedly loves, just because the sex isn't perfectly compatible. How lame, and that is NOT love. 

 

Furthermore, you can have some understanding of sexual compatibility, without actually having sex.

I think people try to work out little problems there, but if it's a huge incompatibility that can't be resolved, IMO it would be foolish to try to go the distance. This IS something that can ruin a relationship. Sex is a big part of a relationship.

You can get a taste of sexual compatibility without actually having sex but you won't really know for sure until you've had sex. I mean you can think you like skiing, you can even base it on loving snow, loving the cold, being athletic, liking heights and so on, but you can't really know until you've put on the equipment and have gone down the hill. Maybe you'll hate it. Sorry, that's a weird analogy. It's just the first thing that came to mind.

Regarding having sex before a commitment, that doesn't mean you have to jump right in bed immediately after the introductions have been made and the lattes have been consumed, but I can't see waiting for months or waiting until marriage. This is just my personal idea. Some people do wait. Not many.

Edited October 23, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Miss Spider]

15 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

Thank you Beach, your post calmed me.

I actually stay away from Chads. I see them a mile away and that Jock mentality isnt even attractive to me. If a guy is acting like Gaston from Beauty and the Beast it is actually a firm NOPE for me. You can usually spot those guys by their gym mirror flexing pics or their crossed arms pose standing in front of their lifted truck. No thanks. I dont take kindly to yer...kind. LOL 

I am very picky in terms of mate selection and I tend to go for the "Undercover Chads". In other words, they look unassuming from the outside but when you get to know them better you realize they are running game on you like there's no tomorrow. Usually they are friends with 10+ real Chads and they all get together to scheme and plot on how to seem like a nice guy but they're just as sneaky as the rest of them. 

I am too genuine for this world. LOL no but in all seriousness, the last guy I broke up with who wanted to date others ended up with a female version Chad, what do you call them? Beckys? Maybe they will play each other. Like some B-movie Hunger Games.

Stacy 

[CaliforniaGirl]

55 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

Thank you Beach, your post calmed me.

I actually stay away from Chads. I see them a mile away and that Jock mentality isnt even attractive to me. If a guy is acting like Gaston from Beauty and the Beast it is actually a firm NOPE for me. You can usually spot those guys by their gym mirror flexing pics or their crossed arms pose standing in front of their lifted truck. No thanks. I dont take kindly to yer...kind. LOL 

I am very picky in terms of mate selection and I tend to go for the "Undercover Chads". In other words, they look unassuming from the outside but when you get to know them better you realize they are running game on you like there's no tomorrow. Usually they are friends with 10+ real Chads and they all get together to scheme and plot on how to seem like a nice guy but they're just as sneaky as the rest of them. 

I am too genuine for this world. LOL no but in all seriousness, the last guy I broke up with who wanted to date others ended up with a female version Chad, what do you call them? Beckys? Maybe they will play each other. Like some B-movie Hunger Games.

Okay, NOW we're finally getting somewhere!

What you're describing isn't anyone's definition of a chad. Even with all the conflicting descriptions, it always comes down to: he's just so hot (in some way) that the women are all throwing themselves at him so how could he possibly be tied down?

What you're describing is a more or less apparently average guy, but who then underhandedly goes through all these methods to figure out how to cheat, even asking his buddies for tips. That really isn't the same thing. It's sort of beyond. I mean...yikes.

Now...the common denominator here is you. I'll just put that very frankly. Subconsciously you are picking these guys. They're your preference.

Why?

It isn't because they're hot.

It's because they're cheaters.

Why?

Don't everybody groan reading this. But have you ever been in therapy? This sounds like traditional commitmentphobe stuff, not "I'm too genuine for this world" stuff. You're not getting tricked, you're going out of your way to choose guys who will hurt you and there has got to be a reason.

[CalipsoRose]

I really dont think I am purposely picking cheaters. I log onto the dating apps and I swipe right on probably 1 out of 50 or 100 men based on my attraction to them which is purely subjective. I start a conversation with that guy and maybe 1 out of 5 of those guys in my DMs who I have swiped right on, I decide to meet in person for a date. By date 2 or 3 I have decided that I really like them and could see myself in a relationship with them otherwise they dont get more than 1-2 dates with me. So by the time I have "chosen" a guy for a potential relationship, he is in the 00.01% of my screening process. Hence why I get so disappointed when hes out seeing other women after a certain amount of time. But am I purposely picking cheaters? No, and if I am then I dont see how I am attracting them on purpose.

 

[poppyfields]

43 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

This sounds like traditional commitmentphobe stuff, not "I'm too genuine for this world" stuff. You're not getting tricked, you're going out of your way to choose guys who will hurt you and there has got to be a reason.

I sort of understand this.  There is a great book – "He’s Scared, She’s Scared, the Hidden Fears that Sabotage Your Relationships" that discusses this. 

Active commitment fears (those who run away from commitment) and passive commitment fears (those who choose to date those with active fears who don’t want commitment).

Different sides of the same coin.

No one does this purposely or intentionally, it’s all very subconscious, which is why they’re called “hidden” fears.

I am not sure if this applies to the OP though. It might be. Worth exploring.

However, I do agree she is the common denominator in all this. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by poppyfields

[CaliforniaGirl]

14 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

I really dont think I am purposely picking cheaters. I log onto the dating apps and I swipe right on probably 1 out of 50 or 100 men based on my attraction to them which is purely subjective. I start a conversation with that guy and maybe 1 out of 5 of those guys in my DMs who I have swiped right on, I decide to meet in person for a date. By date 2 or 3 I have decided that I really like them and could see myself in a relationship with them otherwise they dont get more than 1-2 dates with me. So by the time I have "chosen" a guy for a potential relationship, he is in the 00.01% of my screening process. Hence why I get so disappointed when hes out seeing other women after a certain amount of time. But am I purposely picking cheaters? No, and if I am then I dont see how I am attracting them on purpose.

 

It's all right here. ^ You are pretty selective. Of course you're choosing these guys. 

We tend to pick up on subtle cues.

You reject four out of five guys although all five initially appealed to you. After speaking to them, meeting them, getting a vibe from them, why did that one make the grade? (Rhetorical question, you say this is a general thing.)

Anyone can accidentally choose a cheater. Or two. Hell, maybe five (if you are REALLY, I am talking extraordinarily, behind the pale unlucky and naive)...but you say this is consistent. You even say these guys are so beyond reprehensible that they seek advice on how to cheat. I am sorry, that is NOT normal.

When anything is this repeated, this consistent, for this many years...you have to look for what the common thing is.

The common thing is you.

Look, you don't have to take this advice at all.

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CalipsoRose]

Perhaps I am the common denominator, but we are in a world of dating today that is cut-throat. I dont think I am an exception here, I think a lot of women are experiencing exactly what I am experiencing. Only those who are out of the dating scene entirely, or who choose to be naive and not see the red flags, are the ones who think everything is an equal playing field out there today when in reality its not. I actually had a conversation with a male gay guy in his 50s at a clinic last week who told me he has never in his life experienced the cut-throat nature of online dating today since he used to date organically some 15 years ago before his partner passed away. We had a 30 minute conversation about the awful luck we're having dating today because of the way it is now. He confirmed this. He agreed its much different today than it has ever been and there are no rules anymore. Its dog eat dog now. 

[mark clemson]

23 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

I really dont think I am purposely picking cheaters. I log onto the dating apps and I swipe right on probably 1 out of 50 or 100 men based on my attraction to them which is purely subjective. I start a conversation with that guy and maybe 1 out of 5 of those guys in my DMs who I have swiped right on, I decide to meet in person for a date.

So you are indeed being pretty selective. Not a surprise there. Yes, your awesome guy is NOT the same as some other woman's awesome guy, quite true. But if 80% of women are only picking 1-2% of men then if there is any significant overlap in who they're picking as awesome guys, well - seems like there's a LOT of men being passed over. Which is exactly the complaint you hear.

Another side of this overall issue:

In any heavily populated area, both attractive men AND attractive women tend to have a similar "problem" which is too many choices.

I'll take myself. I'm reasonably attractive and have had women come on to me spontaneously, been told "I could have any woman I wanted" (never true) and so forth. I estimate that in actuality something on the order of 10-15% of women are attracted to me. Not enough?  Well, in my greater metro area, there are on the order of 5 million people, so (ROM) 2.5 M women so 10% is roughly 250,000 women.

If 25% of them are single, and another 25% are attractive enough for me, that's on the order of 15,000 potential partners floating around within fairly easy reach. Way more than I could have anything to do with in a single lifetime, and more than enough to give me many (probably too many) options. I suspect for the truly attractive women out there the "problem" is substantially worse.

Under those kinds of circumstances the competitiveness increases, including the "success" of the jump-to-sex strategy for "getting the man". So yes, cut-throat. This can be seen as a negative or a positive thing, depending on one's situation.

[Woggle]

Dating is dog eat dog but that doesn't mean you have to partake in the feast. Just vet your partners hard before you make any kind of commitment.

[fred123]

Its the same for guys. I would like a relationship with the right girl im attracted to but you know guys get used and played too?

Its hard for us to know where we stand with a girl also. Girls will withhold sex from a guy for weeks and weeks and play the

[major_merrick]

27 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

He agreed its much different today than it has ever been and there are no rules anymore. Its dog eat dog now. 

I agree too!  It is definitely a different world than it was even 10 years ago.  And not for the better.  I'll ask - are you religious?  Or perhaps you have a more old-fashioned temperament?  Because there's a bunch of different religious dating sites where you might find somebody who is less sex-oriented and more commitment-oriented.  Hell, I know a couple of decent guys (late 20's early 30's) I could even introduce you to....  I make a damn good matchmaker (as long as you want to live in Mid-South rural USA )

Another question - what are your hobbies?  Do you have hobbies that get you out of the house?  That's one common thing I've noticed that brings people together, and sometimes the people who stay single longer are the people who are staying home.  Not that any of this is easy in a post-COVID world, but its just a thought. 

But whatever you do from here, it is pretty clear that you're going to have to change something.  Maybe several things.  "Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."  So consider changing your expectations.  Consider how to change the kind of people you're finding.  Change the kind of person you're dating, how early you're having sex (ie. postpone it!), and change where you're looking.  Pretty much take your dating pattern for the last few years and do a clean slate.  If you continue to do online dating, you might explore more niche sights and things that cater to folks with less "swipe right" tech ability.  Those sites seem to have more single guys on there and fewer single girls. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by major_merrick

[CaliforniaGirl]

35 minutes ago, CalipsoRose said:

Perhaps I am the common denominator, but we are in a world of dating today that is cut-throat. I dont think I am an exception here, I think a lot of women are experiencing exactly what I am experiencing. Only those who are out of the dating scene entirely, or who choose to be naive and not see the red flags, are the ones who think everything is an equal playing field out there today when in reality its not. I actually had a conversation with a male gay guy in his 50s at a clinic last week who told me he has never in his life experienced the cut-throat nature of online dating today since he used to date organically some 15 years ago before his partner passed away. We had a 30 minute conversation about the awful luck we're having dating today because of the way it is now. He confirmed this. He agreed its much different today than it has ever been and there are no rules anymore. Its dog eat dog now. 

I'm don't think dating isn't cutthroat, I don't think it isn't a swipe culture, a flake culture or a candy store, when it's OLD, especially certain apps.

What you describe is something very specific and very repeating: men who choose someone while simultaneously creating methods to cheat, conspiracy style, getting help from friends for methods, etc., pre-planned, "undercover chads." Over and over.

Look, do you want help changing your results? You said you wanted help.

If you don't think improving your picker will help then where do you expect to start? By narrowing down your choices to the worst possible guys as you've been doing all through your 20s as you describe, then maneuvering the timing of the sex as you also ask about? I'm not being cruel but do you realistically expect that this will work? With a guy whom you describe as seeking a relationship upon which to cheat?

Do you want help choosing the right guy and discovering why you don't? Beyond the pitfalls of today's dating. That only carries so far - not at least 8 solid years of every relationship.  This is an honest question.

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[poppyfields]

I agree, today's dating environment IS dog eat dog.  Especially on line. Before I met my boyfriend (on line), I had some rather unpleasant experiences with men myself.  Men asking me straight outta the gate if I want sex, sending me unsolicited pics and the like.  Immediately delete.

Men who contacted me who lived out of state or a long distance away – immediate delete.  There is a reason a man is looking for women who live a distance away and it’s rarely good.  Just to name a few. 

But I never let it get me down and kept going.  I was quite discretionary about who I even agreed to talk to!   I met my bf after approx two weeks chatting, he was only the second man I met in person.

I think blaming your bad experiences on “dating is cut throat dog eat dog” is a cop out.  You agree you are the common denominator.  So what’s stopping you from looking within, recognizing your role in these disappointing/hurtful experiences and making changes?  Trying something different, a different approach?

Attracting a different type of guy?  As many of us have said, there are good guys out there.  

Like attracts like, so if you want a different type of guy, a commitment-minded guy, then that is the vibe, the energy you must portray yourself.

Again, a lot of this is subconscious so I don’t know what the answer is really, except to look within.  Most of the answers we seek can be found by looking within. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
langauge