Infidelity, the unfaithful side

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 6:12 AM, Wiseman2 said:

You're already in marriage counseling. What do they recommend and are both of you doing the suggested things?

At some point your "now husband" has to stop going through your things and stop policing and beating you up over it.

You need to decide. Do you want to be a prisoner or a wife? It may be best to consider separation/divorce. 

You don't love him and he doesn't trust you.

I do love him very much. The therapist seems to think my husband just needs to get over everything and if he wants to stay with me then we need to move on forward or if he isn't we need to end things. 

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:01 AM, EPC82 said:

Perhaps you kept your friendships with other men a secret because you knew that your husband would not like it? Is he overtly jealous all the time about all men in relation to you? 

I'm only wondering if his behaviour is the driving force behind your secretive nature in platonic friendships with men. Now you are being made to feel that you've been unfaithful because of the secrecy, but the secrecy was actually born somewhere else?

It seems to me that you weren't trying to get back with your ex or start an affair with your co-worker. You are just capable of having friendships with men. No?

Another question...(and I apologize if you have already stated this)...did you cheat on your ex husband with your current husband? 

This is how I have felt but I've been so scared and full of anxiety it has messed with my head. Ive always had more guy friends than girlfriends. I did cheat on my ex with my husband now but him and I were separated but still married at the time.

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:56 PM, mark clemson said:

I guess. The claim here is that this was just a friendship, no attraction. So it seems like there would be nothing to actually hide, if everyone was behaving rationally (and that goes for both of them). Perhaps OP can chime in to clarify.

@4paws you seem to be on a major guilt trip in the other thread, so perhaps there was indeed more to this than mere friendship, or ??  Why did you feel the need to hide it from your husband?

I felt the need to hide the relationship because I didnt want to lose my husband(now) at that time my boyfriend. He was always sure of himself and what he wanted and what he didnt so I justified the fact that I could trust myself to not "cheat" in my mind back then if it wasnt physical or specifically talked about an actual relationship it wasnt cheating. I see now that hiding a relationship is cheating no matter what.

The co worker i worked with had told another girl we worked with when he first met me that he wanted to try to get with me. I dont recall him ever trying to take a stab at that because I always told him how much I loved mike and how happy I was. I truly thought me and that co worker were friends since he knew I wasnt going to do anything with him.

I see that its not that simple to be friends with the opposite sex when you are in a relationship. If he wouldve done what I did I would feel the same way as him. I shouldve never put myself in that position to begin with. I just didnt think about the full risk I was taking on my relationship. 

When he found out about me talking to my co worker so much I freaked out and got scared so I panicked and when I panic I do exactly the opposite of what I should do. Im not sure why I do that. So because of how I handled it I made it seem worse than it was even though it still wasn't ok.

I feel guilty because I did lie to my husband, over and over again. I put our relationship on the line for friendships that weren't even real. I hurt the most important person in my life and the only person who has always been there for me.

I regret everything. I regret everything I did in the past and how I handled it all now. I made it all worse than it needed to be.

[Loneheart]

On 10/24/2020 at 2:19 PM, EPC82 said:

Fair enough. 

I know that i wouldn't want to married to a man that dictated to me who I am allowed to friend with. 

I have an ex husband. I spent 15 years of my life with him. From my perspective, maintaining a friendship with him is a way of my recognizing those years as valid rather than an entire waste of time. No future partner of mine will tell me that I can't remain friends with him. 

She lied. Bad choice. Perhaps the right choice would have been to tell her new man that he doesn't get to make those choices for her. But! A precedent was set and more lying followed. 

Again...op hasn't set me straight so this is all speculation. 

I still agreed to the terms he set. Yes he gave me an ultimatum but I chose to accept them but I still decided to betray him by still talking to my ex. It wasnt worth it at all. I have also told him many of times if im ok with him talking to certain people or not.

I have a low self esteem so if I even saw he was fb friends with someone I didnt like or had someone on his Instagram that posted alot of pictures of them half naked or something it would upset me I would tell him and he would get rid of them no questions asked.

I still went with I trust myself this is my justification. No matter what the bottom line was that I lied. I lied alot and both of us are hurting because of it. I try to own up to my faults but its not easy.

[Loneheart]

18 hours ago, merrmeade said:

Hmmmm. What the heck are you doing, 4Paws? Did you intentionally start this one off without referencing your original thread? You should have given a link or explanation to that other thread. Were you hoping to get responses that point the finger at your husband? I don’t see you jumping in to put them straight when they do. Are you accepting these interpretations of your reality? I’m disappointed that you started this thread off asking for advice because you’re so ‘lost’ and “don’t know what to do.” If you were looking for a fresh batch of people to feel sorry for you and blame your husband, that’s what you got. I regret my last post to you in the other thread. 

Or maybe you are really just looking for an excuse to get out of your situation. You haven’t actually been dealing with this very long at all, you know, yet you’re complaining that it’s too hard and you don’t like feeling bad - kind of like children do. An adult can feel bad about what you did but still be hopeful and humble about trying to change.

You admit you’ve lived in denial about how you push boundaries. Your own words say it better than any summary: 

Your real deep-down belief that excuses it for you - even now - is that it wasn’t physical, you didn’t feel physically attracted. I was waiting for the “We were just friends” line, which I feel sure you’ve used somewhere. BEFORE reading the McDonald book, How to Help Your Spouse Heal..., you must read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She quotes statistics and gives detailed examples of how emotional affairs develop between men and women that they insist are just friendships. Yours didn’t lead to a physical relationship, but do you think they could have? Also, why did you spend that time getting closer to another man rather than your husband? It will take more than books for you to get to the bottom of it. That means looking hard at how and why you interact with men.

If someone immediately protests that it wasn’t physical, nothing happened, it was just chit-chat, it wasn’t flirting, then that person is willfully ignoring the blurry lines that actually define flirting. Or just feeling flattered by a man’s attention. Sharing confidences. You’re choosing not to think about what’s inappropriate when you “got close.” Close how? 

You got a lot of really good, insightful advice in that other thread. You sounded sincere if willfully clueless. People were trying to help you ‘get it’ to the point of showing you how to be transparent. One gave you examples of how to report your activities in a day in such a way that he will see you are not responding to men’s overtures or even to friendly gestures. Someone else gave you a personal example of how she pulled back from a friendship with a married male friend just because of little signs to her that they could get close emotionally and his wife clearly wasn’t comfortable with their friendship. And Schlumpy gave you the name of a really good book in the second post above. 

I think this one bears rereading:

There are other threads you could read about couples reconciling after serious, physical affairs that involved lying and deception. A recent one talked about all his wife was doing to make up for her betrayal. He was struggling with the change in his feelings toward her. He went back and forth for weeks but said she continued working hard at doing and being what he needed - transparent, loving, attentive, sensitive. She wasn’t perfect and sometimes said clueless things to him but not as much as you do. Don’t ask us. Ask your husband what he needs. Better yet, do it in counseling.

 

Im struggling to figure out these forums. It took me awhile to even figure out how to respond to them. Then when I did respond it would take me all the way back to the end of all the replies so i was missing alot of them. I just now got to read some that were from June. Im not tech savvy and im still figuring things out. I also have no clue how to link this to my other post.

I asked for advice on this just to get more of the other side. That is all. I am the bad guy here, I always have been but I want to fix things. I love my husband and I want us to get through this together.

I'm not trying to get anyone to feel sorry for me. Im also not trying to have anyone blame my husband for anything. He is a good man and is handling everything the best way he can. I havent blamed him for how he is dealing with things. Its all my fault and I accept full responsibility for it.

I saw on another post what you said and I stated that you gave me good advice and I have taken it. I also stated that i felt like you had helped me more than my therapist. Ive also been doing what others have said as well. 

Im sorry that you have been through this yourself. I know its hard mentally, physically, and emotionally. Every day seems to actually get worse for him. I can imagine it did for you as well. 

I fight with myself. The part of me that doesn't fully get everything I did and the part of me that absolutely hates myself for doing what I did.

I kept saying things weren't as bad as they seemed. After talking with my husband I see that thats just an excuse to lighten the reality. It doesnt matter what I did or how I did it. What matters is I lied and I disrespected my husband. Thats the bottom line. I hurt him in the worst way possible.

All I want is for us to get through this together and if we can't then I just want him to have peace and move on the best way he can. 

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 6:12 AM, Wiseman2 said:

You're already in marriage counseling. What do they recommend and are both of you doing the suggested things?

At some point your "now husband" has to stop going through your things and stop policing and beating you up over it.

You need to decide. Do you want to be a prisoner or a wife? It may be best to consider separation/divorce. 

You don't love him and he doesn't trust you.

Marriage counseling hasn't really been working well. The therapist leans more to my husband just needing to move on and get over things. I dont agree with that. He isn't getting to the root of the issues and he isnt trying to help my husband cope with anything either..

I'm totally fine with my husband going through my stuff. He usually let's me know if he is or if he did. Im not trying to hide anything from him anymore. I dont think he polices me or beats me up over anything. I feel like he is handling the situations the best of his abilities and I caused it so I should take it. Im the reason he feels the need to do these things. I do love my husband more than anything and I just want us to get through this together. 

[Loneheart]

It shouldve never happened to begin with.

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:01 AM, EPC82 said:

Perhaps you kept your friendships with other men a secret because you knew that your husband would not like it? Is he overtly jealous all the time about all men in relation to you? 

I'm only wondering if his behaviour is the driving force behind your secretive nature in platonic friendships with men. Now you are being made to feel that you've been unfaithful because of the secrecy, but the secrecy was actually born somewhere else?

It seems to me that you weren't trying to get back with your ex or start an affair with your co-worker. You are just capable of having friendships with men. No?

Another question...(and I apologize if you have already stated this)...did you cheat on your ex husband with your current husband? 

He hasn't ever come off jealous to me. I was unfaithful because i hid a relationship from my husband even though it wasnt physical. Ive always had more guy friends than girlfriends but i see now that non of them were my friends. I did cheat on my ex with my husband now.

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 1:53 PM, EPC82 said:

If the relationship between her and her ex was entirely platonic than that definitely should have played a role. Men can't just march around telling women who they can and cannot talk to. 

I can't help but wonder if the op wasn't managing her new man's jealousy. Its worth considering. Men can be possessive and for reasons that I can't grasp woman seem to see this as romantic and protective.

I still agreed to our terms on our relationship. No matter what I broke that with him which broke our trust. I was ok with his terms because I felt the same way. If the roles were reversed I would feel the same way he does.

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:13 PM, scotchnstout said:

So it's her husband's fault she lied.

My husband never made me have to lie. I chose to lie for my own selfish reasons.

[Loneheart]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:21 PM, EPC82 said:

Jeepers...I'm not implying that its his fault. I'm asking a bigger picture question...a question not yet answered by the OP. 

People lie! That doesn't equal adultery. 

To me it looks like he doesn't trust her. Either there are elements that we aren't aware of or he (might) have unhealthy jealousy issues. 

I dont think he has jealousy issues. I think he told me what he wanted and didnt want and I agreed to them and then did the opposite.  I betrayed him and his trust.

[merrmeade]

1 hour ago, 4paws said:

Im struggling to figure out these forums. It took me awhile to even figure out how to respond to them. Then when I did respond it would take me all the way back to the end of all the replies so i was missing alot of them. I just now got to read some that were from June. Im not tech savvy and im still figuring things out. I also have no clue how to link this to my other post.

I asked for advice on this just to get more of the other side. That is all. I am the bad guy here, I always have been but I want to fix things. I love my husband and I want us to get through this together.

I'm not trying to get anyone to feel sorry for me. Im also not trying to have anyone blame my husband for anything. He is a good man and is handling everything the best way he can. I havent blamed him for how he is dealing with things. Its all my fault and I accept full responsibility for it.

I saw on another post what you said and I stated that you gave me good advice and I have taken it. I also stated that i felt like you had helped me more than my therapist. Ive also been doing what others have said as well. 

Im sorry that you have been through this yourself. I know its hard mentally, physically, and emotionally. Every day seems to actually get worse for him. I can imagine it did for you as well. 

I fight with myself. The part of me that doesn't fully get everything I did and the part of me that absolutely hates myself for doing what I did.

I kept saying things weren't as bad as they seemed. After talking with my husband I see that thats just an excuse to lighten the reality. It doesnt matter what I did or how I did it. What matters is I lied and I disrespected my husband. Thats the bottom line. I hurt him in the worst way possible.

All I want is for us to get through this together and if we can't then I just want him to have peace and move on the best way he can. 

Good. Just checking to be sure. I was hoping you'd be consistent and you were.

Good for you for clarifying and staying the course. 

So let's get back to work - and listen: I'm glad you feel heard. You got some really great answers in that first thread. As you can see, answers may be all over the place. If it doesn't make sense to you and confuses you, just ignore it. But, if you stay away too long people get bored and make their own conversation about your stuff. 

[merrmeade]

1 hour ago, 4paws said:

Marriage counseling hasn't really been working well. The therapist leans more to my husband just needing to move on and get over things. I dont agree with that. He isn't getting to the root of the issues and he isnt trying to help my husband cope with anything either..

So getting back to work: This is very concerning. Don't worry about money. There's far more at stake, right? So forget how much money you've invested in this person and LET HIM (HER) GO! It's not a fit. This person has an agenda that s/he's pushing down your throats and is not feeling your needs.

I have this niece who is my favorite extended family member. She's a skilled, highly trained psychologist who works with families and young children. I had a long conversation with her just two days ago about the question of how to find the right therapist for my son who's still reeling from a divorce. She was only slightly helpful with the finding part, but - far more important - she really convinced me of that you might have to spend money to find the right one. She said you should try to narrow it down according to your criteria  NOT continuing to see someone who's a wrong fit for you. She said to think of the first one or two visits as test drives and be ready to walk away if it's not working, if it's not 'a good fit.' They are used to it and if they're strong professionally, won't take it personally. 

You don't have to make that mistake. You do have a good handle on what you want to accomplish in counseling, and you are most decidedly not ready to move on just because the therapist says so. You're uncomfortable with that, so you should talk to your husband and ask how he feels but say you want to keep looking. You want to understand more and need someone who will help you unpack the details of what happened and why. He's not doing that, so keep looking.  

She suggested searching on Psychology Today. It's well respected and they have tons of listings with credentials, experience, areas of experience, etc. Maybe others can make suggestions about what to look for.

Some people actually think individual therapy is more important in the immediate aftermath of affair discovery. I actually agree with that, for my situation, but your situation is unique 

 

 

[pepperbird2]

op,

something troubling in your posts is that , when you feel backed into a corner with your spouse, you lie. Why? Why is the the default? What are you afraid of? Your spouse? Something else? Is this a coping mechanism learned way back when?

I would suggest some individual counselling as well, if you're not already seeing a counsellor for yourself.

[mark clemson]

13 hours ago, 4paws said:

I felt the need to hide the relationship because I didnt want to lose my husband(now) at that time my boyfriend. ...

I see that its not that simple to be friends with the opposite sex when you are in a relationship. If he wouldve done what I did I would feel the same way as him. I shouldve never put myself in that position to begin with. I just didnt think about the full risk I was taking on my relationship.

I feel guilty because I did lie to my husband, over and over again. I put our relationship on the line for friendships that weren't even real.

Thanks for responding. You didn't actually answer a key question, which is:  does your husband actually forbid you (either explicitly or implicitly) from having platonic friendships with men? I get him being worried about the Ex, so that's not an issue for me. You should have minimized contact with him since there are no kids. To me, that one's on you. It's the second one I'm wondering about.

I think that of course you're right the deception was a mistake. The point me and several others (including in your other thread) are trying to make is that IF this were really just friendships, you shouldn't have ever felt you needed to hide them to begin with. IF your husband is actually a reasonable man (and I'm nowhere near certain he is) who permits reasonable platonic friendships, I think you'd agree this whole blowup needn't have ever occurred to begin with.

It IS actually simple to be friends with members of the opposite sex - you just let your partner know the friend exists, explain that there's nothing to worry about, and be transparent about any/all contacts. I had a female friend for 10+ years (friendship started in a work context). We would email to check in every so often and also meet for lunch maybe 2/3 times a year. We kept it platonic, had some very interesting discussions, and I never had to hide anything from my wife. Instead I very much made a point of telling her, particularly when we had lunch, which was often at a local shopping mall. I in NO way wanted some friend of ours to happen to encounter us and notify my wife I'm having lunch with a strange woman, raising these questions about our completely platonic friendship.

It's quite clear you want to reconcile with your husband. The near term is just going to be way too soon to normalize things, but EVENTUALLY you'll want to establish explicit permission to have male friendships (if you wish to), AND to keep up your end of the bargain, be completely transparent about them. In the shorter term, find some girl friends as they will be seen as much less of a threat.

You're getting lots of advice from others on the more immediate issue of fixing your relationship. Unfortunately to a certain extent, you will need to drop other things to cater to his emotional needs. It's a situation that IMO could have been avoided, but now you are in it and are choosing to continue. For better or worse the ball is now in his court as to whether to stay together. GL.

Edited October 26, 2020 by mark clemson

[merrmeade]

9 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Thanks for responding. You didn't actually answer a key question, which is:  does your husband actually forbid you (either explicitly or implicitly) from having platonic friendships with men? I get him being worried about the Ex, so that's not an issue for me. You should have minimized contact with him since there are no kids. To me, that one's on you. It's the second one I'm wondering about.

I think that of course you're right the deception was a mistake. The point me and several others (including in your other thread) are trying to make is that IF this were really just friendships, you shouldn't have ever felt you needed to hide them to begin with. IF your husband is actually a reasonable man (and I'm nowhere near certain he is) who permits reasonable platonic friendships, I think you'd agree this whole blowup needn't have ever occurred to begin with.

It IS actually simple to be friends with members of the opposite sex - you just let your partner know the friend exists, explain that there's nothing to worry about, and be transparent about any/all contacts. I had a female friend for 10+ years (friendship started in a work context). We would email to check in every so often and also meet for lunch maybe 2/3 times a year. We kept it platonic, had some very interesting discussions, and I never had to hide anything from my wife. Instead I very much made a point of telling her, particularly when we had lunch, which was often at a local shopping mall. I in NO way wanted some friend of ours to happen to encounter us and notify my wife I'm having lunch with a strange woman, raising these questions about our completely platonic friendship.

And that is exactly the point. She's not you. You did it the right way, the normal way, and it's good for 4Paws to get these explanations. Clearly she never learned this basic understanding of decency and consideration. Some of it is taught, but much of it is being transparent and open with your partner as well as considerate and empathetic. Mark says he told his wife about his lunches because someone else might misinterpret and tell her. Hell, even my husband, has had lunch with women he's worked with that I know about and don't care - and he's someone who did have an affair!

But this is not what she's talking about. And it's not just black or white, platonic or sexual, appropriate or inappropriate. There's everything in between and not all in a straight line. Some relationships can be intensely emotionally intimate for a long time - still inappropriate. Called an emotional affairs.

And not everybody has the same degree of self-awareness to anticipate possible pitfalls. THAT is the main reason I think that 4Paws will benefit from individual therapy. I do believe that your denial about impropriety is from a lack of self-awareness. If you get a good therapist, s/he will ask the right questions to get you thinking about your actions, thoughts and feelings that you may not be aware of and not owning. You need to talk in detail about what you talked about and how you talked about it. 

To this day, my sister-in-law refuses to own her inappropriate behavior toward my husband. She insists they were "mostly" friends but were "stupid" one or two times. Now, how do you think that makes me feel? She is in serious deep denial and blames me for reacting to it. 

I'll repeat - and I think this poster and anyone else who hasn't experienced infidelity personally would benefit from reading the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She quotes from studies and her own practice ways the playing field has changed.:

Some statistics from the introduction in case you think it's rare:

• At least one or both parties in 50 percent of all couples ... will break their vows of sexual or emotional exclusivity ...
• 25 percent of wives and 44 percent of husbands have had extramarital intercourse.
• Seventy-five percent of all people who marry their affair partners end up divorced.
• Over 90 percent of married individuals believe that monogamy is important, but almost half of them admit to having had affairs.
• People are more likely to cheat if their friends and family members have cheated.
• When a woman has an affair, it is more often the result of long-term marital dissatisfaction, and the marriage is harder to repair.
• Most people, including unfaithful partners, think that talking about an affair with the betrayed partner will only create more upset, but that is actually the way to rebuild intimacy. Trying to recover without discussing the betrayal is like waxing a dirty floor.
• The aftermath of an affair can offer partners who are still committed to their marriage an opportunity to strengthen their bond. Exploring vulnerabilities often leads to a more intimate relationship.
• Seventy-five percent of all people who marry their affair partners end up divorced.
• Over 90 percent of married individuals believe that monogamy is important, but ...
• ... almost half of them admit to having had affairs.
• People are more likely to cheat if their friends and family members have cheated.
• When a woman has an affair, it is more often the result of long-term marital dissatisfaction, and the marriage is harder to repair.
• Seventy-five percent of all people who marry their affair partners end up divorced.
• Over 90 percent of married individuals believe that monogamy is important, ...
• ... but almost half of them admit to having had affairs.

Some quotes:

"The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they’ve crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love."

Most people also mistakenly think that infidelity isn’t really infidelity unless there’s sexual contact.

"In the beginning, there is a cup of coffee, a working lunch, a check-up call on the cell phone--all of these contacts are innocent enough and add vitality and interest to our days. But when secrecy and lies become methods of furthering the relationship, it has become an emotional affair. When the affair is discovered, the involved partner is torn between two competing allegiances, and the betrayed partner develops the alarming mental and physical symptoms of obsession and flashbacks. Both partners are frightened, fragile, and confused. On their own, they may not know how to cope."

 

[merrmeade]

Back to your questions, rPaws: Try to answer questions about the conversations. This is to give you insight. Others can maybe come up with better ones. Maybe your husband, too, but that's your call. We know too little about that dynamic at the moment.

1.  Your ex's calls: Who called whom first - you or your ex-husband? Did you also text? Did you delete the texts?
2.   Did you confide things about your marriage or your husband to him?                                              
3.  What did you enjoy about these conversations that made you come back again and again?
4. What was going on in your marriage then? Were you having talks with your husband?
5. Have you ever had talks like that with your husband?                                                                                                                                                                          
6.  Why were you able to have so many conversations then without your husband's knowledge? When did they take places during the day? Where was he? Where were you? 
7. Try to describe the topics and manner of talking. Did you joke and laugh a lot?
8. Your co-worker: How long had you been chatting with him at work like this and building rapport so that you finally wanted to continue it on the phone and texting.
9. What was he like? Is he close to you in age? Could you theoretically - if you weren't married - have dated? Were other women attracted to him?
10. Did you each initiate the conversations equally or was it always him or you? Was it mainly texting or was there a change.
11. Do  you think he was into you even a little?
12. Try to describe the topics and manner of talking. Did you joke and laugh a lot?

That's a start.

[EPC82]

4Paws,

The fact that you cheated with your now husband on you ex husband really does explain his reaction. He knows that you are not above starting new relationships while still in old ones. The dishonesty that punctuates the beginning of your relationship will always live there. You can't escape it. 

It all makes sense to me now. 

Good luck. 

[mark clemson]

10 hours ago, merrmeade said:

And that is exactly the point. She's not you. You did it the right way, the normal way, and it's good for 4Paws to get these explanations. Clearly she never learned this basic understanding of decency and consideration. Some of it is taught, but much of it is being transparent and open with your partner as well as considerate and empathetic.

I suppose that's possible. I struggle with this because it seems so elementary to me, in a way a find it hard to believe. Keeping things visible to a partner (or invisible IF you believe that's necessary) is something we learn in HS and college. Particularly women. It seems like most 16 year olds should be capable of handling this, and certainly most 22 year olds.

So, while you MAY indeed be right, I'm finding it difficult to believe @4paws actually doesn't understand how to be transparent with a friendship.

That leaves 2 other main possibilities (1) this actually was an affair or (2) she hid the friendship from her husband because she believed it wouldn't be tolerated.

Which brings me back to the where I was earlier. Her not having strong social skills I suppose does make for a 3rd possibility.

I am starting to wonder if @4paws is afraid to "badmouth" her husband by admitting he won't let her have male friends JIC he ever reads this, as it would be another negative thing "she did" "to" the relationship. I could always be wrong about that.

[Loneheart]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:14 AM, merrmeade said:

Good. Just checking to be sure. I was hoping you'd be consistent and you were.

Good for you for clarifying and staying the course. 

So let's get back to work - and listen: I'm glad you feel heard. You got some really great answers in that first thread. As you can see, answers may be all over the place. If it doesn't make sense to you and confuses you, just ignore it. But, if you stay away too long people get bored and make their own conversation about your stuff. 

I'm beginning to see that the conversation can go elsewhere when im not able to check in enough. Im going to try my best to make more time to try and check in on here daily. I really appreciate everyone's input even if it isn't exactly what I want to hear.

I dont know if you noticed but im trying to do paragraphs like you mentioned and trying to keep my thoughts together. I realized after my first post that it was so long and just one paragraph it was hard to follow.

I bought the book Not Just Friends and im still in the process of reading it. I am dyslexic so sometimes its hard to follow and it takes me awhile to read it because I have to reread alot. My brain isn't very good at absorbing information. Sometimes I can read just one chapter and then try to think about what I just read and I can't even remember what it was, or at least not all of it.

I've reached out to 6 other therapists to try and maybe find a better fit for my individual and for our marriage counseling. Ive had a couple respond back but im hoping to hear from more so I can find the right fit. I like ther therapist I've been seeing but im not sure we share the same values or see eye to eye on some things. I dont feel like he is really helping with getting to the root of things, how to take steps to fix things, how to move forward, or what is the actual best thing for my husband in the long run.

I truly want to put him first and I want him to be happy. I know it will take a long time. I know it will be hard and he isn't going to like me all the time. Ive already been witnessing that. But I totally understand and I just take it because I know thats my responsibility. These are the consequences of my actions.

My husband and I have been through hell since February and some days are ok and most days aren't. We both deeply love each other and ultimately want to be together. But I think its more complicated than that and he struggles with that, as he should. 

The biggest issues im having when it comes to fixing everything is the fact that I can't remember anything. I know it seems impossible and unrealistic but it is honestly true and he can't accept that. Which I totally understand and I would probably be the same way. This infidelity happened so long ago and at the time I didnt realize that was what it was. It wasnt important to me enough to remember but somehow it was important to me enough to put my relationship on the line.

[Loneheart]

On 10/26/2020 at 3:52 AM, pepperbird2 said:

op,

something troubling in your posts is that , when you feel backed into a corner with your spouse, you lie. Why? Why is the the default? What are you afraid of? Your spouse? Something else? Is this a coping mechanism learned way back when?

I would suggest some individual counselling as well, if you're not already seeing a counsellor for yourself.

I think im afraid. All my life I have always wanted to please everyone and I never wanted anyone mad at me. I was like that with my friends, family, relationships, and even with my fellow employees. I dont know why I'm like this. Its a flaw that I can't stand about myself. My husband tells me I never stand up for myself and maybe thats true.

I do think I definitely need individual counseling because at first I wasnt completely honest with the therapist I had. I eventually opened up and told him everything but I still felt like he wasn't giving me what I needed. I know that everything that has happened is horrible and it can't be taken lightly. I feel like my husband has every right to not push it all under the rug and I think thats what my therapist wants him to do.

[Loneheart]

On 10/26/2020 at 11:47 AM, mark clemson said:

Thanks for responding. You didn't actually answer a key question, which is:  does your husband actually forbid you (either explicitly or implicitly) from having platonic friendships with men? I get him being worried about the Ex, so that's not an issue for me. You should have minimized contact with him since there are no kids. To me, that one's on you. It's the second one I'm wondering about.

I think that of course you're right the deception was a mistake. The point me and several others (including in your other thread) are trying to make is that IF this were really just friendships, you shouldn't have ever felt you needed to hide them to begin with. IF your husband is actually a reasonable man (and I'm nowhere near certain he is) who permits reasonable platonic friendships, I think you'd agree this whole blowup needn't have ever occurred to begin with.

It IS actually simple to be friends with members of the opposite sex - you just let your partner know the friend exists, explain that there's nothing to worry about, and be transparent about any/all contacts. I had a female friend for 10+ years (friendship started in a work context). We would email to check in every so often and also meet for lunch maybe 2/3 times a year. We kept it platonic, had some very interesting discussions, and I never had to hide anything from my wife. Instead I very much made a point of telling her, particularly when we had lunch, which was often at a local shopping mall. I in NO way wanted some friend of ours to happen to encounter us and notify my wife I'm having lunch with a strange woman, raising these questions about our completely platonic friendship.

It's quite clear you want to reconcile with your husband. The near term is just going to be way too soon to normalize things, but EVENTUALLY you'll want to establish explicit permission to have male friendships (if you wish to), AND to keep up your end of the bargain, be completely transparent about them. In the shorter term, find some girl friends as they will be seen as much less of a threat.

You're getting lots of advice from others on the more immediate issue of fixing your relationship. Unfortunately to a certain extent, you will need to drop other things to cater to his emotional needs. It's a situation that IMO could have been avoided, but now you are in it and are choosing to continue. For better or worse the ball is now in his court as to whether to stay together. GL.

He hasn't ever forbid me to talk to any men except my ex husband. Which with him he gave me an option and i chose my husband.  But I guess not fully becauseI disrespectedhis wishes that I did agree to. I was a complete hypocrite to him because I wouldve been extremely angry if he talked to one of his ex. I automatically assumed that my husband wouldn't be ok with me being friends with my nurse. I really dont know why I felt that.

I was never with my nurse outside of work and I honestly don't remember things that we talked about. I do know that ive never talked to him sexually, and ive never talked to him about us being together or anything like that. Ive never sent him pictures of me either.

Infidelity isn't what I was wanting. I didnt realize then that that was what I was doing. Back then it was a hidden friendship that I thought wasn't a huge deal at the time because I trusted myself and knew I never wanted to be with him physically or in a relationship.

I've never wanted to not be with my husband. He has always made me happy. I really dont know why things happened like they did. Im confused. 

 

[Loneheart]

On 10/27/2020 at 12:04 AM, merrmeade said:

And that is exactly the point. She's not you. You did it the right way, the normal way, and it's good for 4Paws to get these explanations. Clearly she never learned this basic understanding of decency and consideration. Some of it is taught, but much of it is being transparent and open with your partner as well as considerate and empathetic. Mark says he told his wife about his lunches because someone else might misinterpret and tell her. Hell, even my husband, has had lunch with women he's worked with that I know about and don't care - and he's someone who did have an affair!

But this is not what she's talking about. And it's not just black or white, platonic or sexual, appropriate or inappropriate. There's everything in between and not all in a straight line. Some relationships can be intensely emotionally intimate for a long time - still inappropriate. Called an emotional affairs.

And not everybody has the same degree of self-awareness to anticipate possible pitfalls. THAT is the main reason I think that 4Paws will benefit from individual therapy. I do believe that your denial about impropriety is from a lack of self-awareness. If you get a good therapist, s/he will ask the right questions to get you thinking about your actions, thoughts and feelings that you may not be aware of and not owning. You need to talk in detail about what you talked about and how you talked about it. 

To this day, my sister-in-law refuses to own her inappropriate behavior toward my husband. She insists they were "mostly" friends but were "stupid" one or two times. Now, how do you think that makes me feel? She is in serious deep denial and blames me for reacting to it. 

I'll repeat - and I think this poster and anyone else who hasn't experienced infidelity personally would benefit from reading the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She quotes from studies and her own practice ways the playing field has changed.:

Some statistics from the introduction in case you think it's rare:

• At least one or both parties in 50 percent of all couples ... will break their vows of sexual or emotional exclusivity ...
• 25 percent of wives and 44 percent of husbands have had extramarital intercourse.
• Seventy-five percent of all people who marry their affair partners end up divorced.
• Over 90 percent of married individuals believe that monogamy is important, but almost half of them admit to having had affairs.
• People are more likely to cheat if their friends and family members have cheated.
• When a woman has an affair, it is more often the result of long-term marital dissatisfaction, and the marriage is harder to repair.
• Most people, including unfaithful partners, think that talking about an affair with the betrayed partner will only create more upset, but that is actually the way to rebuild intimacy. Trying to recover without discussing the betrayal is like waxing a dirty floor.
• The aftermath of an affair can offer partners who are still committed to their marriage an opportunity to strengthen their bond. Exploring vulnerabilities often leads to a more intimate relationship.
• Seventy-five percent of all people who marry their affair partners end up divorced.
• Over 90 percent of married individuals believe that monogamy is important, but ...
• ... almost half of them admit to having had affairs.
• People are more likely to cheat if their friends and family members have cheated.
• When a woman has an affair, it is more often the result of long-term marital dissatisfaction, and the marriage is harder to repair.
• Seventy-five percent of all people who marry their affair partners end up divorced.
• Over 90 percent of married individuals believe that monogamy is important, ...
• ... but almost half of them admit to having had affairs.

Some quotes:

"The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they’ve crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love."

Most people also mistakenly think that infidelity isn’t really infidelity unless there’s sexual contact.

"In the beginning, there is a cup of coffee, a working lunch, a check-up call on the cell phone--all of these contacts are innocent enough and add vitality and interest to our days. But when secrecy and lies become methods of furthering the relationship, it has become an emotional affair. When the affair is discovered, the involved partner is torn between two competing allegiances, and the betrayed partner develops the alarming mental and physical symptoms of obsession and flashbacks. Both partners are frightened, fragile, and confused. On their own, they may not know how to cope."

 

I got her book and am currently reading it now. Thank you for being understanding. 

[Loneheart]

On 10/27/2020 at 10:32 AM, mark clemson said:

I suppose that's possible. I struggle with this because it seems so elementary to me, in a way a find it hard to believe. Keeping things visible to a partner (or invisible IF you believe that's necessary) is something we learn in HS and college. Particularly women. It seems like most 16 year olds should be capable of handling this, and certainly most 22 year olds.

So, while you MAY indeed be right, I'm finding it difficult to believe @4paws actually doesn't understand how to be transparent with a friendship.

That leaves 2 other main possibilities (1) this actually was an affair or (2) she hid the friendship from her husband because she believed it wouldn't be tolerated.

Which brings me back to the where I was earlier. Her not having strong social skills I suppose does make for a 3rd possibility.

I am starting to wonder if @4paws is afraid to "badmouth" her husband by admitting he won't let her have male friends JIC he ever reads this, as it would be another negative thing "she did" "to" the relationship. I could always be wrong 

He honestly hasn't ever told me I couldn't have male friends. I on the other hand have made him delete many women from his FB and Instagram just because they showed to much skin or to me they looked like they depended on sexual attention. 

My husband has always had high self esteem and I have always had extremely low self esteem. Thats mostly where my jealousy comes from. Ive admitted that I have been a huge hypocrite our whole relationship but I've been working on that and am trying my best not to be that way anymore.

I completely trust my husband, that was never my issue. It was always the fact that I didnt trust other women because my husband is a total catch. He has every quality any woman would want.

Up until all of this has happened I didnt notice just how crazy in love with me my husband was/is. I always knew he loved me but how he has handled all these things and has tried to still not hurt me has opened my eyes to how deep his love for me is. This is what makes my lies, disrespect, and deciet so much more painful for me. He never deserved any of this.

[pepperbird2]

13 hours ago, 4paws said:

I think im afraid. All my life I have always wanted to please everyone and I never wanted anyone mad at me. I was like that with my friends, family, relationships, and even with my fellow employees. I dont know why I'm like this. Its a flaw that I can't stand about myself. My husband tells me I never stand up for myself and maybe thats true.

I do think I definitely need individual counseling because at first I wasnt completely honest with the therapist I had. I eventually opened up and told him everything but I still felt like he wasn't giving me what I needed. I know that everything that has happened is horrible and it can't be taken lightly. I feel like my husband has every right to not push it all under the rug and I think thats what my therapist wants him to do.

It sounds to me like you've begun a journey of learning about yourself. It may not be an easy one, but it will hopefully be well worth it.

I'm always surprised by how things in our past can colour our behaviour in ways we don;t even know. For me, I was adopted. I've always found it very hard to trust anyone, and operate form the perspective that they already have one foot out the door. The counsellor my husband and I saw for an unrelated issue pointed that out. Is there something like that in your past? Maybe your parents split , that sort of thing?

At any rate, I did want to commend you for being willing to do all this work on yourself. That takes a lot of courage.