Being a man in a female-dominated workplace

[dispatch3d]

Ah I've never gotten along with someone that wanted to only talk about sports at work - its not an interest of mine. Although the fact we both didn't like sports was usually the tip of the iceberg.

 

" It also should be noted that we occasionally see some women writing asking how to keep other women from asking about their private lives."   

It is annoying to either gender yes. As a guy in his 30s that has barely dated and isn't happy about it, generally its a bad idea to bring up dating with me unless I prompt it. Hopefully his coworkers realize this over time and get the hint...

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

On 10/12/2020 at 1:22 PM, CLS63AMG said:

Are short guys still upset about the height thing?  Its called find a girl your height or shorter, there are many of them out there!  Why on earth would you want a girlfriend that towers over you in the first place?

Probably because even short women want tall men. 
 

OP, these women are rude to comment on your height.  Everything else is normal workplace banter. If you don’t like it, at your next job say you’re dating someone on and off, it’s complicated, and you’ve learned better than to discuss your dating life in the workplace. 

[Miss Spider]

I know you do not want to hear this but you can’t stop them from making those comments. I agree with Elaine in that you need to learn how to handle it. You’re basically asking how to stop people from being nasty and you can’t. They are people 

Edited October 21, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
langauge

[Trail Blazer]

Those comments are highly inappropriate.  OP shouldn't have to *learn* how to handle those comments better because they simply shouldn't be made.

Asking of he's in a relationship is completely normal after some period of time.  However, going further than that by opining about OP's relationship status just isn't cool.

Why should OP *have* to develop a sense of humor to comments which he finds hurtful or offensive?  How is it okay to mock OP's physical attributes which he has zero control over?

I'm all for banter at work.  However, you need to be careful about choosing the right people with whom to banter, and what exactly with be the subject matter of said banter.

Suicide rates for men are in the U.S. (and probably most western nations) are four times higher than that of women.  Men bottle up emotions because they're just expected to just cop the same sort of crap that if any woman was subjected to, would be considered bullying and harrassment.

[Trail Blazer]

7 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

I know you do not want to hear this but you can’t stop them from making those comments. I agree with Elaine in that you need to learn how to handle it. You’re basically asking how to stop people from being a**h***s and you can’t. They are people 

I strongly disagree with everything you've posted.  Men know not to comment (openly) about so many aspects of a woman's appearance or personality. 

Why?  Because it's been drummed into our heads for generations that it's highly inappropriate and offensive and women will get upset.

What if a male openly said to a larger-framed lady, "I'd swipe right on you just so you got one match" or, "Hey, Jonny... would you date a chick this chubby?"

If the shoe is on the other foot, it's considered highly inappropriate, offensive and hurtful.  What you, elaine and whoever else are advocating by saying that OP should learn to suck it up, "develop a sense of humor" or the like are doing, is advocating the normalcy of behavior which comes under the definition of bullying in the workplace.

Men know that there's so many "you just don't go there" comments you make about women in public.  It's time women start to learn that there's many areas that they just shouldn't go with regards to men, either.

[Miss Spider]

7 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I strongly disagree with everything you've posted.  Men know not to comment (openly) about so many aspects of a woman's appearance or personality. 

Why?  Because it's been drummed into our heads for generations that it's highly inappropriate and offensive and women will get upset.

What if a male openly said to a larger-framed lady, "I'd swipe right on you just so you got one match" or, "Hey, Jonny... would you date a chick this chubby?"

If the shoe is on the other foot, it's considered highly inappropriate, offensive and hurtful.  What you, elaine and whoever else are advocating by saying that OP should learn to suck it up, "develop a sense of humor" or the like are doing, is advocating the normalcy of behavior which comes under the definition of bullying in the workplace.

Men know that there's so many "you just don't go there" comments you make about women in public.  It's time women start to learn that there's many areas that they just shouldn't go with regards to men, either.

Xxxxxxxxx

 

on the other hand, there is also the point that these are really incomparable because this isn’t a gendered thing. A says woman hears “no wonder you’re single” from other women all the time.

 

agree to disagree

Edited October 21, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[Miss Spider]

13 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I strongly disagree with everything you've posted.  Men know not to comment (openly) about so many aspects of a woman's appearance or personality. 

Why?  Because it's been drummed into our heads for generations that it's highly inappropriate and offensive and women will get upset.

What if a male openly said to a larger-framed lady, "I'd swipe right on you just so you got one match" or, "Hey, Jonny... would you date a chick this chubby?"

If the shoe is on the other foot, it's considered highly inappropriate, offensive and hurtful.  What you, elaine and whoever else are advocating by saying that OP should learn to suck it up, "develop a sense of humor" or the like are doing, is advocating the normalcy of behavior which comes under the definition of bullying in the workplace.

Men know that there's so many "you just don't go there" comments you make about women in public.  It's time women start to learn that there's many areas that they just shouldn't go with regards to men, either.

@Trail BlazerOh sorry never mind I skimmed your text and saw your specific points now.... I see what you mean . Sorry it’s been a long night 

[Trail Blazer]

7 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

Oh yes. Men never comment me on my appearance or personality. Wait, what?  No. That actually happens all the time. I can’t stop at the gas station with out some guy asking me if I am married or have a boyfriend hogging up my time. My dad’s acquaintance change my tire about 30 minutes ago and he told me I was gorgeous. So please maybe work harder on the generations of indoctrination of getting men to not make comments on women. Many women can attest that it is not working.

 

on the other hand, there is also the point that these are really incomparable because this isn’t a gendered thing. A says woman hears “no wonder you’re single” from other women all the time. 

 

agree to disagree

I meant in the context of a work situation.  Yeah, you're going to encounter creeps at a gas station, you cannot control that.

Please explain how it's different for a guy to hear jokes by women about how he's too short as to the reasons why he's single than for a woman to hear comments by men about her lack of dating options because she's overweight?

Would you tell that woman, who is feeling reallt insecure about herself, to develop a sense of humor?  Or would you just agree that those comments shouldn't be said?

In the workplace, if a man makes those comments to a woman, he knows they are inappropriate.  He knows he'll be sanctioned by his employer if she makes a formal complaint.  So, if he does make those comments, he's choosing to do because a), he does not care for the potential repercussions from H.R. and/or b), he is in fact not a nice person

What's pertinent here, is the normalization of these comments.  You're advocating for their normalcy by putting it back on the OP to laugh it off.  Why?  He finds it offensive.  Making jokes of men's appearance should be as taboo as making fun of women's appearence.

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[poppyfields]

@TB, on everything you posted.   

Edited October 20, 2020 by poppyfields

[Alvi]

OP, I think you need to develop a thicker skin and not to take everything that was said to you so personally. There are always going to be people who ask you rude, crude, very personal question, whether it be at the workplace or outside of workplace. This kind of people are everywhere.

For example, one woman who works at a gas station asked me how come I never had kids. A very personal and intrusive question. I mean, we do chat once in a while, but to ask such a thing practically a stranger? How did she get from "The weather is nice today" to "How come you don't have kids" I'll never know.  told her that I don't wish to discuss something so personal. Maybe she got upset, maybe not, but such is life. 

Every single place I've worked at, I was always asked some personal questions. Instead of getting upset learn the fine art of smiling and saying nothing. Or say that you don't wish to discuss your private live. Or be vague and make up a fib that you are seeing someone. Or develop a good sense of humor and offer some witty remark if someone asks you about being single.

 

[Miss Spider]

@Trail BlazerI agree with you that I don’t like comments on appearance, particularly when they are being inappropriate or offensive.  But being short is just way more socially acceptable than being overweight, so is perceived as less of an insult. It’s like saying real women have curves and men want women with skin on their bones not a skinny chick to a thin woman. I don’t think we should normalize it, but if we’re going to work on what is socially acceptable and isn’t, we’d just take all the stigma off of being overweight. It’s  just not that easy. That’s why I think we suggested to handle it yourself 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[poppyfields]

I work in the legal field, and I am very familiar with labor/employment law (in the US).   

In the workplace, it actually does not matter how generally offensive certain comments are (fat, skinny, tall, short, race, gender, or other discriminatory comments) if someone feels offended by such comments to the point it’s negatively affecting their morale and job performance, that would be considered a “hostile work environment” for that employee and the company is liable.

Another employee may not be as offended, it does not matter.  It's however those comments negatively impact that one employee that matters.  

Outside the workplace, I realize one cannot control offensive and discriminatory comments made by others, but in the workplace, yes they can, by reporting them to HR and allowing HR to deal with it.

Every employee has a right to a workplace free of harassment and inappropriate comments, that’s the law here in the U.S.

Advising them to grow a thicker skin or a better sense of humor is really missing the mark here imo.

Edited October 21, 2020 by poppyfields

[Miss Spider]

I see, poppy. It Reminds me of that woman that sued because she was fired for being “too attractive” . Haha 

 

The reason I think learning how to handle it himself and managing his own feelings towards it is because even if he proves the comments about his height and dating life are interfering with his job, he will probably meet these comments outside of the workplace. There are women that will say point blank to a guy on a date that he is a little too short. It’s a rude thing to say in my opinion. However, it happens all the time and it has very little stigma attached.  And, at least with our present landscape( though who knows in the future), he can’t sue them for that.

 

to answer your question on my other thread( just didn’t want to bump it) yes. I like broody men who dislike humanity. Just a preference lol. Thanks for the well wishes and glad to see you around still 

Edited October 21, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[poppyfields]

2 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

I like broody men who dislike humanity. Just a preference lol. Thanks for the well wishes and glad to see you around still 

I once fell hard for a broody man who had a dislike for humanity, I feel that way myself sometimes.  So I get it. 

I don't disagree everyone should grow a thick skin, and learn to take the punches and even throw one back!  

But the workplace is not the place, no one shouid even have to deal with that shyt in the workplace.  

It's nice to see you around too.  Welcome back.  

[Trail Blazer]

1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said:

@Trail BlazerI agree with you that I don’t like comments on appearance, particularly when they are being inappropriate or offensive.  But being short is just way more socially acceptable than being overweight, so is perceived as less of an insult. It’s like saying real women have curves and men want women with skin on their bones not a skinny chick to a thin woman. I don’t think we should normalize it, but if we’re going to work on what is socially acceptable and isn’t, we’d just take all the stigma off of being overweight. It’s  just not that easy. That’s why I think we suggested to handle it yourself 

You know, it's about being empathetic.  I've read so many threads on here about guys' struggles with dating that it really opens your eyes up to the pain of rejection that plagues many guys in today's dating sphere.

A man's height is tied to his masculinity.  Whilst short guys can still be masculine, alpha and all the rest, it cannot be considered completely mutually exclusive, either.

For a lot of men, their lack of height is something which they're extremely self-conscious about.  For most guys and gals, they rule out partnering up if it means that the woman will be taller.  Automatically that reduces a short-man's dating pool somewhat.

If you couple the reduced dating pool for height, with other contributing factors which further reduce a man's dating pool (unattractive/unmasculine face, skinnny/fat etc.), which quite often come with being a short man, it's little wonder why people like OP (even if just being short is his only physical attribute reducing his dating pool) has struggled to form many relationships.

At the end of the day, looks matter a lot to both sexes.  An average looking guy won't get a lot of attention on OLD platforms.  An average looking guy, who's also short, will find that a lot of his initial respondents will end up ghosting him when they find out about his height.

So, let me reiterate this.  Men are extremely self-conscious about their height.  There's only one thing a woman can mock about a man that will affect him negatively than his stature.  Yet, ironically, in almost every survey, women will state that height is the number one most important physical attribute for women.

Whilst height and weight are different in that one can be controlled (to some degree, in most cases - sans a medical problem preventing weight loss), hence why it's got a different social stigma about it - ask any woman if she'd rather be shorter and slim, or taller and obese and I would have my money on most women preferring to be short and slim.

On the other hand, I dare say more men would rather be taller and fat, than short and slim.  Being short for a woman wouldn't affect her dating prospects much.  Many dudes get off on a short, petite woman. 

How many women like a short, thin man?  Not many.  But a big dude who's tall can lose weight because a), he can because b), it will increase his dating prospects.  A short dude can't take growing pills.  He has no control over his height, despite how much he may wish that he does.

[Trail Blazer]

1 hour ago, poppyfields said:

I work in the legal field, and I am very familiar with labor/employment law (in the US).   

In the workplace, it actually does not matter how generally offensive certain comments are (fat, skinny, tall, short, race, gender, or other discriminatory comments) if someone feels offended by such comments to the point it’s negatively affecting their morale and job performance, that would be considered a “hostile work environment” for that employee and the company is liable.

Another employee may not be as offended, it does not matter.  It's however those comments negatively impact that one employee that matters.  

Outside the workplace, I realize one cannot control offensive and discriminatory comments made by others, but in the workplace, yes they can, by reporting them to HR and allowing HR to deal with it.

Every employee has a right to a workplace free of harassment and inappropriate comments, that’s the law here in the U.S.

Advising them to grow a thicker skin or a better sense of humor is really missing the mark here imo.

Exactly right.  The only thing that matters is how offensive it is to the individual the comments have been directed towards. 

Anyone who de-legitimizes the feeling of offense one has towards comments directed at them for anything pertaining to their race, religion, physical appearance or the like, is someone defined as making comments from a position of privilege.

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[Miss Spider]

Privileged to not gaf what some old biddies think of my  appearance,  maybe 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[Trail Blazer]

14 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Privileged to not gaf what some old biddies think of my  appearance,  maybe 

That's exactly what privilege is!  A mentality of thinking if something isn't a problem for you, then it shouldn't be a problem for anyone else.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[Miss Spider]

Yes, that’s what I said. Privileged not to care anymore, but I wasn’t always this way. It took personal development, plenty experience with criticism,  and a deeper understanding of myself and others. I’ve developed ways to deflect or dismantle any slights, typically with humor, and get on with my life .Not disrespecting anyone else’s crusade,  but I can’t help suggesting to others to do the same. There will always be bad stuff in the world one has to deal with. I truly believe that.

Edited October 21, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[Noproblem]

Just say, I like to keep my private life private and smile

Never tell them any details; it is none of their business! You owe them nothing!

If anyone make fun of you, make fun of them too!

[dispatch3d]

Trail Blazor owning this thread.

 

I think you should set some boundaries with these woman, walking away clearly angry is one manner in which you can let them know it's not ok. Honestly showing a "sense of humour" in these scenarios isn't appropriate in my mind. If someone belittles you there's no need to help them.

[Trail Blazer]

31 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Yes, that’s what I said. Privileged not to care anymore, but I wasn’t always this way. It took personal development, plenty experience with criticism,  and a deeper understanding of myself and others. I’ve developed ways to deflect or dismantle any slights, typically with humor, and get on with my life .Not disrespecting anyone else’s crusade,  but I can’t help suggesting to others to do the same. There will always be s*** in the world one has to deal with. I truly believe that.

Perhaps don't suggest anything to them, then.  Because, by making such suggestions, you're de-ligitimizing their feelings towards something which they find offensive or hurtful.  That is only going to exacerbate their feelings of pain, frustration or sadness.

Like I said, privilege is the feeling of something not mattering to anyone else because the same thing doesn't matter to you.  Start looking at things from the perspective of empathy, rather than blaming someone else for feeling hurt by comments which are clearly inappropriate.

 

[Miss Spider]

I am not in any way trying to marginalize the hurt the OP feels about comments about his height or say it doesn’t matter to him. But because this is an advice forum, I was advising that due to my own xp( and others may disagree)  building my self-esteem and developing tools to respond to insults has helped me and allowed me to not be as affected by them and people who insult me and treat me bad. And it has happened to me often. People find all kinds of ways to hurt people, not just about their height. They can say  awkward, weird, ugly. They could flat out ostracize him. And it’s all very hurtful and not trying to downplay that in any way, just to clarify. 

I have no idea where that definition of ‘privilege’ you are using comes from, but thank you for enlightening me on the context in which you’re using it. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[dispatch3d]

3 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

I am not in any way trying to marginalize the hurt the OP feels about comments about his height or say it doesn’t matter to him. But because this is an advice forum, I was advising, that due to my own xp( and others may disagree) that  building my self-esteem and developing tools to respond to insults has helped me and allowed me to not be as affected by them and people who insult me and treat me bad. And it has happened to me often. People find all kinds of ways to slight people, not just height. They can say  awkward, weird, ugly. They could flat out ostracize him. And it’s all very hurtful and not trying to downplay that in any way, just to clarify. 

I have no idea where that definition of ‘privilege’ you are using comes from, but thank you for enlightening me on the context in which you’re using it. 

There's definitely a balance between getting in a huff over the smallest of slights vs not enabling their behaviour that cannot be communicated over a forum.

 

I'm in the same boat with the privilege talk to be honest.

[Trail Blazer]

1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said:

I am not in any way trying to marginalize the hurt the OP feels about comments about his height or say it doesn’t matter to him. But because this is an advice forum, I was advising that due to my own xp( and others may disagree)  building my self-esteem and developing tools to respond to insults has helped me and allowed me to not be as affected by them and people who insult me and treat me bad. And it has happened to me often. People find all kinds of ways to hurt people, not just about their height. They can say  awkward, weird, ugly. They could flat out ostracize him. And it’s all very hurtful and not trying to downplay that in any way, just to clarify. 

I have no idea where that definition of ‘privilege’ you are using comes from, but thank you for enlightening me on the context in which you’re using it. 

When a young, (presumably) attractive woman suggests to a guy who's very short, who is mocked by fellow work colleagues (the majority of whom are female) for his lack of dating prowess owing to his slight stature, to "get a sense of humor" when said mocking affects him negatively, then you are speaking from a position of privilege.

There's no way for you to possibly understand what it would be like to feel so rejected and lonely like this guy would.  Hence, when one cannot give advice from having actually experienced what OP is going through, we should attempt to empathize (walk in their shoes) as best we can.

You may well have gone through many struggles in your time.  You may well have had so many nasty, vitriolic comments directed at you that you're now so jaded that the only way you've figured you can become impervious to nastiness of this world is to numb yourself to it all.  Everyone has a story and goes through stuff.

However, in this context only, you absolutely speak from a position of privilege.  It doesn't matter if you've had guys say horrible things to you, or you've had horrible break-ups or whatever.  In the context of OP's problems, you need to be empathetic to his plight. 

Please, try to understand life from his perspective and how horrible and lonely it can be If you're constantly rejected in the dating world.  Just read some of the threads on here by guys about their dating struggles.  I don't expect you to relate, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to empathize before they comment.