Telling children about an affair

[mark clemson]

16 hours ago, EPC82 said:

Sincere question: should we all be disclosing all aspects of our failed marriages to our children, or only affairs? 

Indeed - one might imagine:

'Well, mommy broke the rules of the marriage (unsaid truth - by cheating) and daddy did too (unsaid truth - by being emotionally and sexually unavailable for years but refusing a separation)".

In a situation like that (and to be fair NOT ALL situations are like that) why say anything at all about the cheating without bringing up the other stuff that damaged the marriage? Seems superfluous and again intended to focus blame on that "terrible cheater" while shifting it away from difficulties the other partner brought into the marriage.

In a situation like that it seems both gentler on the kids AND more fully honest or at least a lot more even-handed (if you're going to avoid going into details) to simply state something along the lines of there are problems in the marriage, both parents bear some responsibility for these issues, we still love you and none of this is your fault in any way, but we are going to divorce.

The divorce will still suck for the kids, but at least they're not demonizing one parent or being given a false impression over who's to blame for the end of the marriage. So they can love both parents (or not) based on that parent's actual merits as a parent.

Does this actually happen? Probably sometimes. I get the distinct impression that some of the BS's who actually are terrible partners (and to be clear, I'm NOT by any means trying to say that ALL are) don't suddenly turn into nice, fair-minded co-parents after they've been emotionally stung by cheating and find themselves divorcing.

[Birdies]

19 hours ago, EPC82 said:

Unless I was meant to express to my children that Mommy "broke the rules of marriage" because Daddy has a fear of intimacy and mommy feels like she is undesirable and has no self esteem left, then perhaps we should just leave the whole broken rules nonsense out of the conversation. 

Wow.  Well as a former cheater myself, clearly you still have some work to do on learning how not to blame your own transgressions on other people.  Your husband gave you lack of self-esteem which forced you to cheat?  Come on.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Birdies

[mark clemson]

Indeed, if she had not cheated but chose to simply leave a bad marriage instead, the conversation with the kids could be about how daddy "broke the rules of marriage" by having intimacy issues that he wasn't willing to work through or get meds for, and HE can be the bad guy.

Then, because cheating wasn't involved, we can in unison roundly criticize the divorcing spouse for "giving too much info" to the kids about the reasons for these big (and probably genuinely) scary change that are coming up in their lives. Because cheating wasn't involved, suddenly, somehow there is no "need" for the explanation to the kids about "causation".

Or do we still "need" to point the finger of blame? (If we're going to do that.)

Edited October 5, 2020 by mark clemson

[EPC82]

1 hour ago, Birdies said:

Wow.  Well as a former cheater myself, clearly you still have some work to do on learning how not to blame your own transgressions on other people.  Your husband gave you lack of self-esteem which forced you to cheat?  Come on.

 

He and I were both victims in our marriage. One swift stab creates the same wound as a million little pricks over 15 years. 

I don't know your situation and what caused you to cheat but don't assume that you know anything about my experiences.

[Birdies]

15 minutes ago, EPC82 said:

 

He and I were both victims in our marriage. One swift stab creates the same wound as a million little pricks over 15 years. 

I don't know your situation and what caused you to cheat but don't assume that you know anything about my experiences.

Of course I don't know you.  But it's ridiculous to blame your cheating on someone else.  You're a grown woman with your own autonomy.

Anyway, this thread was obviously started as a way to defend all your own actions, so good luck with that, see ya.

[mark clemson]

So am I speaking too soon, or is there no actual, logical reason to "out" a cheater to the kids for the damage they did to a marriage, unless one feels that a non-cheating spouse who damaged a marriage, by whatever means, to the point of divorce should similarly be "outed" for their flaws or poor decisions?

Edited October 5, 2020 by mark clemson

[lifeoflies]

If the children are over 5 years old and this has been going on for awhile, they already sense something is wrong and they are feeling very unsafe and confused. The adults in this dance are so preoccupied with themselves that they miss the cues. Sure tell them, at least they can begin to process the madness that has enveloped them. 

[EPC82]

11 minutes ago, lifeoflies said:

If the children are over 5 years old and this has been going on for awhile, they already sense something is wrong and they are feeling very unsafe and confused. The adults in this dance are so preoccupied with themselves that they miss the cues. Sure tell them, at least they can begin to process the madness that has enveloped them. 

I respectfully disagree. 

All the wild generalizations that happen in this forum are bananas. 

Through chatting with people in this thread I have realized that this is clearly a case by case situation. Shocking! Broad strokes rarely apply to any aspect of life. 

But! If you like to shuffle every situation into the box that you create for them, you go right ahead. 

[elaine567]

19 hours ago, EPC82 said:

I in no way promote lying to our children. I only promote protecting them. 

And protecting yourself at the same time... your standing with your children remains intact...
It may not have done, had they known you cheated on their father and thus  instigated the divorce.

[pepperbird2]

This might sound odd, but depending on how it's handled, it could be knowing about an affair might offer some benefits- I know how silly that sounds, but I'll explain.

After my husband told me he'd cheated, it was like being hit in the stomach. It was something i had little to no experience in. I ended up talking it out with my mom an dad, and my dad told me that, in the early days of their marriage, he's had a very brief affair. He and my mom never talked about it with my brother and me at all. His point in telling me about it as an adult was to show that a WS can truly be remorseful and feel terrible about having an affair. That they can still be a good person and a marriage can recover.  It actually really helped me to know that.

Now I know that's very different than telling a child directly about an affair, but I do  wonder if there could be a benefit in allowing children to see that a husband and wife can disagree and even hurt one another but still love each other very much and learn better ways of treating one another. Alternatively, if divorce is the end result, I don't see the value in demonizing the WS.

 

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

It may not have done, had they known you cheated on their father and thus  instigated the divorce.

I have not read OP's backstory - but, did SHE instigate the decision to divorce?

It occurs to me that, just as a WS is an adult and responsible for their decisions, so the BS must be seen as that as well.

I'm thinking of a case where the spouse wanted a divorce, other spouse talks them out of it, but doesn't change in a way so the unhappy spouse  feels happy.

Then the spouse cheats and becomes a WS. The now BS discovers the cheating and then decides - ok, NOW I want a divorce.

Who's responsible for the divorce? Seems like it's the BS who's being catered to here as to whether the marriage continues. The BS is an adult and divorce is a decision. If THEY decide they "have to" divorce now that they've been cheated on - well, they are actually the ones responsible for deciding to divorce, rather than continue the marriage.

WS was unhappy but stayed in. Now THEY get to be unhappy and stay in. Or concede that they are an adult and responsible for their own decisions and are choosing to divorce.

In the cases where the WS is genuinely unhappy in a marriage but the other spouse urges them to stick around (which is not all cases); this view seems even handed to me.

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, lifeoflies said:

If the children are over 5 years old and this has been going on for awhile, they already sense something is wrong and they are feeling very unsafe and confused. The adults in this dance are so preoccupied with themselves that they miss the cues. Sure tell them, at least they can begin to process the madness that has enveloped them. 

So, how about if other problems are the cause? For example, dad is a (true) workaholic or mom is addicted to painkillers.

I think kids would certainly also sense the problems and tensions, etc and feel unsafe and confused.

Is it necessary to explain the problems? Dad loves work so much that mom doesn't want to be with him anymore, so we are divorcing. Mom is has a serious problem that she needs help for, but she refuses to get that help, so we are divorcing.

If you think YES, then I think it's fair to explain the cheating too. If you think NO, it's TMI, then I would question - why is it necessary to reveal this when cheating is the cause instead?

[Zona]

Lying to your kids is a slippery slope and I regret doing it. Both my kids had suspicions because there were times when we were arguing and fighting loudly about it, and even though they were in a different part of the house, they obviously heard things. When I talked to them about it, I purposely twisted things around to protect my WW to make it sound like it never went beyond inappropriateness and her mind wasn't right due to the insane hours she was putting in at med school.

I so totally regret doing that. Don't be me, and do the right thing as painful as it is. Tell them the truth.

[mark clemson]

10 minutes ago, Zona said:

I so totally regret doing that. Don't be me, and do the right thing as painful as it is. Tell them the truth.

Ok - but does this view apply when it's not cheating?

You say "the right thing". Is your regret based on concern for your own feelings and not those of your children (at the time)? Maybe you DID the right thing, at the time.

I would note that, if you regret it and they are near adulthood and more mature, you could consider telling them now, which IMO would be reasonable if you think they are genuinely old enough to handle it now. Maybe that would be "the right thing" now?

Maybe sometimes "the right thing" depends a lot on timing/appropriateness for the situation?

[Zona]

10 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Ok - but does this view apply when it's not cheating?

You say "the right thing". Is your regret based on concern for your own feelings and not those of your children (at the time)? Maybe you DID the right thing, at the time.

I would note that, if you regret it and they are near adulthood and more mature, you could consider telling them now, which IMO would be reasonable if you think they are genuinely old enough to handle it now. Maybe that would be "the right thing" now?

Maybe sometimes "the right thing" depends a lot on timing/appropriateness for the situation?

Lying to my kids is something I consider as one of my greatest moral failings, but I can't turn back the clock. If my WW and I manage to continue to reconcile and stay together, I (and my wife) plan on taking this to our graves.

If we end up divorced, I will probably tell them the truth. If I suspected or found out that either of my children were not biologically mine (which I don't think is the case), I would also tell them. My WW had a pregnancy scare with AP which really shook me. Anyways, end of T/J and apologies to OP.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Zona

[Starswillshine]

Mark...

 

If the WS prior to the affair was unhappy but the BS wanted to stay in the marriage, the WS ALWAYS had the right to divorce anyway. 

 

If the WS decides to stay in the affair and then cheats, and the BS decides to then divorce, then yes 100% that is on the WS. 

No one takes away the right to divorce. Unhappy... divorce. 

[ABernie]

There are just too many variables to have one answer to this debate.  

 

My brain went to financial problems.  My parents struggled, but I would never have known.  School is harder when your a re preoccupied wondering if you will have a place to sleep, something to eat.  We were never that bad, but would my 8, 10, 12, 16 year old brain go there?  Each age would probably have a different reaction.  

 

My sister did tell me later in life about the struggle b/c my mom told her (4 years older) and she complained to my mother about not having "something."

 

Being a parent is very fluid.  

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Zona said:

Lying to my kids is something I consider as one of my greatest moral failings, but I can't turn back the clock. If my WW and I manage to continue to reconcile and stay together, I (and my wife) plan on taking this to our graves.

If they are grown up and this really bothers you (sounds like it does) you could consider discussing it with your wife. There are sometimes reasons to bear a burden; and sometimes those reasons change over time. Something for you to consider (if you haven't already).

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

If the WS decides to stay in the [marriage] and then cheats, and the BS decides to then divorce, then yes 100% that is on the WS.

Actually that's not true. The DECISION to cheat was made by the WS. The DECISION to divorce over it was made by the BS (if they are the one making it).  As we all know, not all BS's divorce, some choose to reconcile.

[Starswillshine]

20 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Actually that's not true. The DECISION to cheat was made by the WS. The DECISION to divorce over it was made by the BS (if they are the one making it).  As we all know, not all BS's divorce, some choose to reconcile.

Yes, the decision to divorce is on the BS in this case; however, the cause (what we are speaking to) is the affair. For whatever reason the WS prior to, even though unhappy, did not have enough cause to divirce. Maybe the WS put the cause of his/her unhappiness on the BS... but he/she did not have enough to divorce. 

 

This seems oddly personal for you as you fight it every single time. 

[mark clemson]

It may seem odd to you, but I've always had a strong distaste for double-standards and advice that doesn't actually hold up to reason. The is a tendency for folks to overlook the logical inconsistencies in what they're saying. Affairs and divorces are serious matters (as you well know) and I think there needs to be an even-handed counter to one sided and (not in your case) accusatory views based on emotion and personal traumas. This does posters here, particularly those who have cheated, a service. You will notice that I normally try to be sympathetic and even-handed with BS's as well.

The point above is a perfect example. The WS is an "adult" and "responsible for their decision to cheat". But the BS is "not" responsible for their decision to divorce? So, it was the WS's decision to divorce??  ALL the onus (you said 100%) for the divorce is on the WS?  That's actually False, yet you are clearly not conscious of the actual statement you are making.

In case you think I'm just inventing that there is sometimes substantial bias in the advice given here, and there is no actual issue, let me re-post what the OP of this thread wrote about the advice she is getting.

19 hours ago, EPC82 said:

All the wild generalizations that happen in this forum are bananas.

 

To me, I'm only doing the right thing. If I stop, then some OPs here will suffer from biased, judgemental, heavy handed advice that glosses over significant nuances and contains significant logical inconsistencies. Is that the kind of advice YOU want to receive when you post on a forum?

Edited October 6, 2020 by mark clemson

[Starswillshine]

No one would ever tell a woman who has been physically beaten that she is responsible for the divorce even if she is the one who pursues divorce and her abuser does not want it. 

You are making an argument over semantics... 

[mark clemson]

It might help if I spell this out a little more plainly:

- The WS was unhappy. But the decision to cheat is 100% on them.  Agreed.

- The BS was cheated on and so is unhappy. But the decision to divorce is 100% on the WS.   Huh?

I assume you see the issue when I put it this way.

[mark clemson]

4 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

No one would ever tell a woman who has been physically beaten that she is responsible for the divorce even if she is the one who pursues divorce and her abuser does not want it.

She is choosing to divorce.

If the beaten woman chose to cheat because she felt that was the solution does she get a pass as well? Why not? Cheating is not a logical solution?  Perhaps the beaten woman feels she needs to find a male to protect her before she can divorce or feels the only way her abuser will leave her alone and not want her any more is if she cheats. She is cleared then, right? If not, why the double standard?

[mark clemson]

The only reason I argue over semantics is because those semantics are sometimes used to gloss over biases and logical inconsistencies in a way that is (IMO) harmful to WSs who post here and/or to maintain and perpetuate an inherently biased view.