My girlfriend and her ex and other past 'friends'...

[Watercolors]

19 hours ago, singletrack said:

I don't know what to think.  Sometimes I feel that perhaps I'm not a priority in her life and she views the relationship differently than I do.  Her personality is definitly on the less emotional side i.e. needy, "lovey", etc.

Ah, but you do know what to think. Don't second guessing your gut-feeling that you've probably had this entire time about her. That she doesn't prioritize you. I mean, she's taking a former hookup to a wedding instead of you. That's a huge red flag. You have to decide if you want to continue feeling like just another option to her. Clearly, if you were truly a priority in her life as her main squeeze, she would be taking you to the wedding. And, she would be less interested in allowing all of these men to continue to orbit around her. 

I know women like her. They never change. Ever. The men some of them end up with long term, just accept their role as second fiddle. If you are ok with her never meeting your emotional needs, then stay with her. Is the great sex the main tether between you? What else do you two have in common, value-wise? 
 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Watercolors

[singletrack]

Thanks all for the replies.  I truly appreciate all the advice.

Yesterday was weird.  I swung by her house in the morning and we laid in bed for about 15 minutes just chatting.  She left for work at the usual 10am and we kissed and said goodbye.  After that......I didn't hear from her until 4:30pm.  We had planned to leave as soon as she got off work and I was done with me Dr's appointment at 3:30.  I purposely didn't reach out to her yesterday because I wanted to see if she'd respond.  I ALWAYS send her sweet messages throughout the day.  Good morning.  Have a great day.  Miss you.  Cant wait to see you.....I know she was checking her Facebook Messenger throughout the day because you're able to see that there.  I always feel like I always initiate contact. 

So we got in the car and radio silence.  There was tension in the air.  I'll admit that dinner with the ex is still in my mind along with all these other issues.  After about 30 minutes we were chatting and blamed it all on miscommunication which I agree.  I understood something different than she was.  She thought I was going to go to her house and wait for her to get there after work.  All good.

Dinner was nice and normal.  We checked into the hotel and went to bed we were both tired.

I guess I don't trust her 100% and that is probably a result of her behavior which I'm not accustomed to.  Maybe it's her relative immaturity to mine.  Maybe it's her friendly personality and all these relationships are innocent.  When I brought up the topic a few weeks back, she asked me about trust and self control.  She asked me if I trusted her to have the self control to shut these guys down and not do anything improper.

 

I can understand all of your replies thus far.  She isn't viewing the relationship as I am.  Too many orbiters, or sleeper cells as I call them.  Likely red flags all abound and I'm ignorant to it all.  Maybe I need to either accept the relationship for what it is and enjoy it, or just leave.

I'm not sure if confronting her on these things will really help correct her natural behavior which at this point I personally don't like.  Asking her to stop seeing these guys will result in either : 1.  Saying I'm trying to control her and either stop it or continue it and be mad at me  2.  Keep doing it and just not telling me anymore.  

Nothing a person can do can stop another from being disloyal and cheating.  That all comes from the person themselves and she has some at the very least questionable behavior.  

Other times I feel that maybe this is all completely innocent and I'm overreacting.  Other than being honest with me, as fas as I know she hasn't been untruthful to me.

[singletrack]

9 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

Ah, but you do know what to think. Don't second guessing your gut-feeling that you've probably had this entire time about her. That she doesn't prioritize you. I mean, she's taking a former hookup to a wedding instead of you. That's a huge red flag. You have to decide if you want to continue feeling like just another option to her. Clearly, if you were truly a priority in her life as her main squeeze, she would be taking you to the wedding. And, she would be less interested in allowing all of these men to continue to orbit around her. 

I know women like her. They never change. Ever. The men some of them end up with long term, just accept their role as second fiddle. If you are ok with her never meeting your emotional needs, then stay with her. Is the great sex the main tether between you? What else do you two have in common, value-wise? 
 

Thanks for the reply - I think I got you a bit confused on the timeline.  If so, I apologize.

The wedding already happened.  It was about 4 weeks ago.  Let's say mid July.  2 weeks before that was when she went away with the ex, which she did tell me also the night before.

Given that I'm willing to bet that she got invited either before we met in March/April or just after we started seeing each other.  When we chatted about it at a later date her response to why she didn't change going with me was something like she didn't want mess up the invitation / response for the people getting married as well as screwing over her guest by leaving him hanging for me.

[singletrack]

31 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I don't know OP"s case, but a lot homes here in Italy are inherited from previous generations and rented out or shared by other family members when the owners are not using. It isn't necessarily a reflection of one's financial status. It's actually fairly common for even middle-class families to have these types of modest "second homes" in the countryside, the beach, the mountains, and so on. 

However, OP, perhaps you could clarify. If you're in solid financial standing, do you feel that might be what she's attracted to?

 

I did inherit it.  It's been in my family for generations.  House is in Polignano a Mare.  I travel to Italy often before all this COVID started - about 4x per year.

Yes, I'm very financially sound.  I'm self employed and have basically unlimited freedom.  I travel a lot ( again, until all this).  I don't live a lavish lifestyle ( I drive a minivan!) but she is aware of my situation.  She is just a manager at an office making I'd guess $45K not that I care.  

Maybe she looks at me for the financial security.  But I will say I've never been with a woman that has been as steadfast as her for paying bills at restaurants, bars , plane tickets, etc.  She pays the bill at least 50% of the time.  

[Watercolors]

I don't think you'll like my observations, but read on. 

16 minutes ago, singletrack said:

I'm not sure if confronting her on these things will really help correct her natural behavior which at this point I personally don't like.  Asking her to stop seeing these guys will result in either : 1.  Saying I'm trying to control her and either stop it or continue it and be mad at me  2.  Keep doing it and just not telling me anymore.  

Since her natural behavior is to be casual with all of these orbiters aka sleeper cells, you're probably correct that asking her to stop mingling with these guys will result in her throwing a tantrum, where she accuses you of being mean and controlling (which is an immature response, to say the least), and temporarily stop while also gaslighting you. Or, she continues to hookup with these men behind your back (if she's not doing that already; how would you know at this point)? 

19 minutes ago, singletrack said:

Nothing a person can do can stop another from being disloyal and cheating.  That all comes from the person themselves and she has some at the very least questionable behavior.  

No. But why are you with this young woman who is clearly not interested in being a traditional girlfriend for you. Is that what you enjoy about this r/s? The fact that she is so sexually carefree? The baggage that she comes with, is, those orbiters/sleeper cells. Who knows what she does when she's not with you. Can you really be ok with not knowing? 

11 minutes ago, singletrack said:

Given that I'm willing to bet that she got invited either before we met in March/April or just after we started seeing each other.  When we chatted about it at a later date her response to why she didn't change going with me was something like she didn't want mess up the invitation / response for the people getting married as well as screwing over her guest by leaving him hanging for me.

Ah. So the wedding already happened. Are you really satisfied with her flimsy response about why she chose not to take you instead of her former sex hookup? That's such a bald faced lie; her answer. Such a lie. Please tell me that you don't believe such a response to be true. Surely, you can see she was lying to you. 

[Watercolors]

4 minutes ago, singletrack said:

Maybe she looks at me for the financial security.  But I will say I've never been with a woman that has been as steadfast as her for paying bills at restaurants, bars , plane tickets, etc.  She pays the bill at least 50% of the time.  

So the women you've dated in the past, must have taken advantage of your financial security by not contributing anything themselves as far as paying bills at restaurants, bars, plane tickets, hotels, etc.? Well, at least she's fiscally responsible. But, is that enough for you to overlook her overt sexual behavior?

[Caauug]

38 minutes ago, singletrack said:

So we got in the car and radio silence.  There was tension in the air.  I'll admit that dinner with the ex is still in my mind along with all these other issues.  After about 30 minutes we were chatting and blamed it all on miscommunication which I agree.  I understood something different than she was.  She thought I was going to go to her house and wait for her to get there after work.  All good.

Ya ok.... Red flag, gone with 30 mins talking….

43 minutes ago, singletrack said:

Maybe it's her friendly personality and all these relationships are innocent.  When I brought up the topic a few weeks back, she asked me about trust and self control.  She asked me if I trusted her to have the self control to shut these guys down and not do anything improper.

Ya ok... it's your fault you have trust and self control issues.... Because of her "Friendly Personality and all these open relationships are innocent" OMG THAT IS A HARD SWALLOW!!!!

53 minutes ago, singletrack said:

I'm not sure if confronting her on these things will really help correct her natural behavior which at this point I personally don't like.  Asking her to stop seeing these guys will result in either : 1.  Saying I'm trying to control her and either stop it or continue it and be mad at me  2.  Keep doing it and just not telling me anymore.  

If she really wants you, it will drive her underground. It will be more smoke and mirrors than it is now with lots of lies. You will have to dig hard to get little bits of the truth....  DO NOT CONFRONT!!!! Watch her actions and listen, she will tell/show you all you NEED to know. 

Best plan is: Do not invest.... (at this time)

45 minutes ago, singletrack said:

I did inherit it.  It's been in my family for generations.  House is in Polignano a Mare.  I travel to Italy often before all this COVID started - about 4x per year.

Yes, I'm very financially sound.  I'm self employed and have basically unlimited freedom.  I travel a lot ( again, until all this).  I don't live a lavish lifestyle ( I drive a minivan!) but she is aware of my situation.  She is just a manager at an office making I'd guess $45K not that I care.  

That is good you have answered one of my previous questions, Like I said answer them for yourself and keep the answers to yourself. Do not Ignore them, they are important!!!

49 minutes ago, singletrack said:

Maybe she looks at me for the financial security.  But I will say I've never been with a woman that has been as steadfast as her for paying bills at restaurants, bars , plane tickets, etc.  She pays the bill at least 50% of the time.

Yep, how far is she in debt, CC's, loans, etc? That is one of the oldest tricks, spend to impress.... She's been living like a Rock Star, it's time for her to "Settle down" it will be hard for her to ditch the "Groupies" Do not make excuses for her!!!!

I could be so much meaner, I don't want to drive you away, but I want you to see her for who she really is: She is a con artist that does Kegel exercises!!!!

[smackie9]

I know you are flip flopping... innocent or not, this is who she is, and you don't like it...the logical thing to say "we are too different" and then move on. What she does is not something you can "correct". You don't correct someones lifestyle, you dump the person and find someone who you are comfortable with, that has the appropriate boundaries....boundaries that suit your expectations. I agree stop making exuses for her....and just stop making excuses. Tho she has a magic V, that doesn't mean that is foundation for a solid relationship.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, singletrack said:

we were chatting and blamed it all on miscommunication which I agree.Maybe I need to either accept the relationship for what it is and enjoy it, or just leave.

It's great you talked. There's nothing to "correct". As she stated either you trust her or you don't. The sex is great, she's younger, etc. Enjoy it while it lasts but the incompatibilities in your lifestyles and values will eventually clash again.

When that happens you'll have the same argument over and over about "appropriate" and "boundaries" and she will counter with "trust" and "controlling". 

This will cycle until it affects your sex life...at that point things will implode.

[salparadise]

The two of you obviously have different expectations and values in terms of opposite sex friendships, especially with regard to former boyfriends and past hookups. She thinks maintaining these associations as "friends" is perfectly fine, while you would prefer a more exclusive relationship. What you don't know for certain is where her boundaries are with these men. Is she solid on sexual exclusivity, or is that sort of fluid depending on circumstances? Let's take the wedding date as an example... do you think she'd sleep with the guy casually and think nothing of it (her choice, what you don't know won't hurt you), would it be out of the question, or somewhere in between?

These guy are orbiters by most anyone's definition, but the way you speak of it doesn't characterize her as being heavily invested in them. At the same time though, she doesn't seem to imagine how it's making you feel, or is it simply not her concern. It's like there's a big gap in awareness with respect to what is considered acceptable or normal behavior. Is there a basis for the ongoing friendships other than the fact that they are/were attracted and had sex?

What about same sex friendships –– does she have a solid group of long-time female friends, or a few close female friends?  Maintaining orbiters and having no close female friends is always a huge red flag.

I could not continue investing emotionally in a women who behaves like this, but I'm not the one getting the amazing sex and becoming attached. I told one woman (who seemed to want to date and protect her independence at the same time) that I didn't need commitment, but that I would not be hanging around if she's intent on dating/sleeping with other men at the same time... and that I needed her assurance that she'd let me know. So we went on like that for several more months, but ultimately we just weren't a good match despite having a lot of good sex and decent chemistry.

I'd say enjoy the great sex, push it as far as you are inclined to, don't fall in love... and when it ends chalk it up as a valuable experience.

[mark clemson]

9 hours ago, singletrack said:

 Likely red flags all abound and I'm ignorant to it all.  Maybe I need to either accept the relationship for what it is and enjoy it, or just leave.  ... I'm not sure if confronting her on these things will really help correct her natural behavior which at this point I personally don't like.

Nothing a person can do can stop another from being disloyal and cheating.  That all comes from the person themselves and she has some at the very least questionable behavior. Other times I feel that maybe this is all completely innocent and I'm overreacting.

Yellow flags, not red, given everything you've posted AND you ARE aware of them. However, you're right (as is basically everyone else posting above) that clearly her boundaries are set very differently and there COULD be cheating (eventually, if not now, OR now) due to some of this. Your approach of accepting this would make sense if you were the type where loose boundaries didn't bother you, but clearly they do. Also...

 

9 hours ago, singletrack said:

 she is aware of my situation ...  Maybe she looks at me for the financial security.  But I will say I've never been with a woman that has been as steadfast as her for paying bills at restaurants, bars , plane tickets, etc.  She pays the bill at least 50% of the time.  

... at the risk of stating what you're already aware of DO NOT marry this woman without talking to a lawyer first. It's possible she is gold digging. I think @elaine567 deserves some credit for noting this. If it was me and my local laws required splitting all assets in divorce (including those brought into the marriage, not just those acquired during it) then I would strongly consider NOT marrying her period.

Even under the latter case, it's possible getting a lawyer's advice might be a good move, e.g. to document all assets prior to the time of marriage in a notarized list or similar, so there would be no question about them. I've heard that many courts assume ALL property is joint property unless proven otherwise.

 

7 hours ago, Caauug said:

Best plan is: Do not invest.... (at this time)

I must say, I agree. Wait a while and be a keen observer. Also see if this is something you can actually live with. It can be not only quite emotionally painful, but also financially destructive to fall in love with the wrong person, and frankly it happens all the time. Keep your head about you as much as possible.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by mark clemson

[Dork Vader]

There is nothing to be confused about. This woman is not that interested. You are either a sugar daddy to her or something along those lines. You might be slightly more. 

But traveling with an ex, when in a committed relationship is inappropriate at the very least. From there I highly doubt her ex slept in the same room/bed as her sister. Does that not sound weird to you at all? It's HER EX, not her sisters. Really think about that one buddy, would you let your ex girl friend share a room with your brother? Probably not.

The wedding I would have been uncomfortable with, but if it was an exclusive relationship I would have voiced my displeasure with that and tried to find some compromise. But here is the major issue I see, she is taking a former fling to a wedding and not someone who is currently genuinely interested in her.. Really that sink in. It seems like she is trying to hide you. 

You need to just move on with your life.

[singletrack]

Just a update.

We've been getting along pretty great.  Still have the issue of the ex.  We talked about it and she said that it was difficult for her to stop a friendship for a relationship .  I basically responded asking how she'd feel if I was doing these things with a former lover?  A also asked her why she was investing in a previous failed relationship over ours.

Last week she tells me she's taking him out for his birthday. She went to his house, hung out for about an half hour there , then they went and picked up take out to bring back to his place.  Ate there for about 45 minute and then met me at her place at the time she said she would be there.  

Not quite taking him out for his birthday.

We'll continue to see each other.  I'll also go about the relationship as she does...casually.

Edited September 19, 2020 by singletrack

[ExpatInItaly]

5 minutes ago, singletrack said:

Last week she tells me she's taking him out for his birthday. She went to his house, hung out for about an half hour there , then they went and picked up take out to bring back to his place.  Ate there for about 45 minute and then met me at her place at the time she said she would be there.  

Not quite taking him out for his birthday.

We'll continue to see each other.  I'll also go about the relationship as she does...casually.

Yes, you are wise not to invest in this woman. 

You two have completely different boundaries. For the record, I would also not be okay with my partner going to his ex's for a birthday dinner. At some point, a line needs to be drawn in the sand. I'd leave them to it and find someone whose values, expectations and boundaries were in line with mine. 

[elaine567]

9 minutes ago, singletrack said:

We'll continue to see each other.  I'll also go about the relationship as she does...casually

I get it you love her and you don't want to lose her but dating casually may be easier said than done and as you are already early forties and of a traditional mindset, why waste time with someone who is not on the same page?

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, singletrack said:

Last week she tells me she's taking him out for his birthday. She went to his house, hung out for about an half hour there , then they went and picked up take out to bring back to his place.  Ate there for about 45 minute and then met me at her place at the time she said she would be there.  

Are you exclusive? He's not an "ex". She is dating him. 

[singletrack]

49 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I get it you love her and you don't want to lose her but dating casually may be easier said than done and as you are already early forties and of a traditional mindset, why waste time with someone who is not on the same page?

I agree.  I can scale it back to casual easily.  Just not sure if I should just tell her "lets be friends" or fire back up the dating apps and start going out without saying anything.

[kendahke]

Having to forgo incredible sex is a bad reason to stay with someone you're not compatible with. Sex isn't a glue to use to stick the can of "act right' in their hand.

[singletrack]

1 hour ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Yes, you are wise not to invest in this woman. 

You two have completely different boundaries. For the record, I would also not be okay with my partner going to his ex's for a birthday dinner. At some point, a line needs to be drawn in the sand. I'd leave them to it and find someone whose values, expectations and boundaries were in line with mine. 

I agree.  I do believe that they are close if not platonic friends.  They were together 5 years or so and the fact that they can be friends and not enemies is a good thing.  It's just that former lovers I feel aren't just friends.  They're former lovers and people you've slept with and I would think wouldn't be intertwined in a new relationship.

[OnlyHonesty]

On 8/28/2020 at 6:38 PM, singletrack said:

I do trust her and I'm not a controlling type.  She has been open and honest with me and I don't want that to stop.  Part of me says I should just explain to her how its disturbing to me and that I don't like the idea, and that it has nothing to do with her or my trust for her, that it just bothers me.

Trust also involves people acting in a way that honors the trust placed in them by others. It is a responsibility. She has not done this. But her honesty means that you feel like she's earned brownie points for it...but she has not. You are the only one that sees the relationship as traditional, she does not. You have repeated that you trust her, but why would you trust anyone that continues to act in a way that dishonors the trust they have been gifted? Trust is a rare privilege and an honor that works both ways, it is not to be squandered or taken lightly.

 

This is very simple. You have clear boundaries, and you enforce them. You mentioned meeting the 'ex'. It sounds like you are trying to shift the goal post of boundaries in order to allow her to play a different ball game. That will not end well.

[OnlyHonesty]

5 hours ago, kendahke said:

Having to forgo incredible sex is a bad reason to stay with someone you're not compatible with. Sex isn't a glue to use to stick the can of "act right' in their hand.

Indeed, but society has convinced many to place sex and pleasure on a pedestal, far above things like loyalty and good behavior.

[kendahke]

21 hours ago, OnlyHonesty said:

Indeed, but society has convinced many to place sex and pleasure on a pedestal, far above things like loyalty and good behavior.

and that is a sign of no self discipline--society says a lot of things that one doesn't have to follow the rest of the sheep over the cliff on.

[Crazelnut]

I don't understand why you'd continue to date a woman who has chosen her ex over your relationship. She is always going to do this to you, because you let her do it. This isn't going to be the relationship you want. Why not find someone else who will respect your relationship?

Also, I think she's using you. Sorry, man. 

[Watercolors]

On 9/19/2020 at 11:13 AM, singletrack said:

I agree.  I do believe that they are close if not platonic friends.  They were together 5 years or so and the fact that they can be friends and not enemies is a good thing.  It's just that former lovers I feel aren't just friends.  They're former lovers and people you've slept with and I would think wouldn't be intertwined in a new relationship.

You obviously know that she’s sleeping with her ex-boyfriend and she’s sleeping with you. How can you be OK with this? 

If you are OK with an open relationship that’s fine, but stop saying that your traditional person if you’re really not. 
 

Obviously the sex must be great with her or you would’ve dumped her already. 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Watercolors

[d0nnivain]

On 9/19/2020 at 12:10 PM, singletrack said:

I agree.  I can scale it back to casual easily.  Just not sure if I should just tell her "lets be friends" or fire back up the dating apps and start going out without saying anything.

I'm late to this party but my $0.02: 

If you can do casual fine but you shouldn't be actively looking or dating behind her back.  If she thinks that you two are exclusive, you have to be up front about what you are doing. 

In your mind her hanging out with these EXs is akin to her dating other men and you simultaneously.  In her mind they are just friends because she is only having sex with you so her public activities with them don't count.  In that sense you two are on different pages.  She'd probably be OK with you grabbing drinks or dinner with some woman you dated in the past but you bringing new women around won't work for her.  

You two have to have some deep conversations about your views on this stuff.  If you can't come to a consensus, it might be better to end this.